Games for Good

[Mr. Mask]

Extra Credits had a look at games in the media--how so often it is said that games are evil murder simulators, and how game developers go on talk shows to defend gaming. The episode looks into how, unfortunately, while we maintain games aren't bad, we rarely talk about games being good. Surely that alone isn't the legacy of gaming. One game produced a breakthrough for HIV research by having players try to complete a puzzle which had stumped scientists for fifteen years (the players accomplished it in three weeks). EC goes on to mention that and other cases.


Here is the episode: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=XzvBzYNPiM0


So, know of any games which you can say the world is better for their existence? Are you interested in games moving forward the way Dan describes?

[Aotrs Commander]

The first thing that springs to mind is - why are games any different from any other hobby or entertainment media?

You would be hard pressed to find many hobby or medium which are "good." Books? Sports? Movies? Chess? Roleplaying? Wargaming? Crafts? (Maybe if you solely make stuff to pass onto the less fortunate, maybe?)

Is there anything inherently "good" about football1? Not really.

You can use those as a medium to do good via promoting charity (i.e. "I'm doing this thing, sponsor me"), say, but games can do that equally well (e.g. the Escapist's annual Desert Bus drive for one).

You can use some of the above to try and promote social change, maybe, via illustration - but that's no different for games than, say, TV. (Whether or not games are currently much used in that fashion is another matter.) But that's not really a function of the medium itself.

So I'm not sure that we even should be arguing for making a case for games that are "good" any more than we should for, say TV.

I, for one, would like someone to tell me any way in which soaps can be even distantly "good" outside of the aforementioned very general utilities and not, in fact, be practically encouraging people to act like asshats to each other...



1In the moral sense in question, not subjective appeal sense as that would merelt get a huge unqualified NO from me personally...

[Craft (Cheese)]

Okay, to give my thoughts on this topic I'm going to have to venture into the old "games as art" debate, so bear with me for a second.

I think Crosshaw has the best definition of "art": Art is something that causes a deep and meaningful emotional experience in the mind of the experiencer. This means that what counts as "art" is subjective because something can be thought-provoking to one person and meaningless drivel to another, but I think that's okay. I've personally had literally life-changing experiences from a game more than once: If you haven't then I honestly feel sorry for you, but so what? I care about games because they matter to me, as tautological as that may sound.

With that in mind, I think Extra Credits is headed down the wrong path before they even start: Changing the conversation from "games deserve to exist because they aren't murder simulators" to "games deserve to exist because they do good for society" still has you operating under the assumption that games need to be justified at all.

I take the Tarantino stance here: Art speaks for itself. The best way to prove to someone that games are wonderful is to give them a wonderful game and let them play it. The argument the game itself provides trumps anything you could come up with to explain what it does through words. If they can't (or won't) understand the justification the game gives for itself, how do you expect to convince them with your half-baked rationalization?

By even trying to provide one you've lost the argument because you've unknowingly accepted your opponent's premise: Games are on trial. And those who are putting games on trial don't really care what gamers or the industry have to say about it.

[Anarion]

The first thing that springs to mind is - why are games any different from any other hobby or entertainment media?

You would be hard pressed to find many hobby or medium which are "good." Books? Sports? Movies? Chess? Roleplaying? Wargaming? Crafts? (Maybe if you solely make stuff to pass onto the less fortunate, maybe?)

Is there anything inherently "good" about football1? Not really.

You can use those as a medium to do good via promoting charity (i.e. "I'm doing this thing, sponsor me"), say, but games can do that equally well (e.g. the Escapist's annual Desert Bus drive for one).

You can use some of the above to try and promote social change, maybe, via illustration - but that's no different for games than, say, TV. (Whether or not games are currently much used in that fashion is another matter.) But that's not really a function of the medium itself.

So I'm not sure that we even should be arguing for making a case for games that are "good" any more than we should for, say TV.

I, for one, would like someone to tell me any way in which soaps can be even distantly "good" outside of the aforementioned very general utilities and not, in fact, be practically encouraging people to act like asshats to each other...



1In the moral sense in question, not subjective appeal sense as that would merelt get a huge unqualified NO from me personally...

I think they're attempting to make more of a comparison to books and movies, both of which have, at various times, been treated as terrible for society, especially after their release and popularity.

Even in modern times, we get "wonderful" moments like people claiming that Harry Potter is Satanic or that television is too violent and is desensitizing our children.



By even trying to provide one you've lost the argument because you've unknowingly accepted your opponent's premise: Games are on trial. And those who are putting games on trial don't really care what gamers or the industry have to say about it.

They're already on trial, though. The comparison they're making is that movies and publishing of various sorts have a humongous lobby. Anyone that doesn't think Disney has deep pockets isn't paying enough attention. On the other hand, with games, big companies have been generally meek and silent, unwilling to tackle controversial topics or to defend their art from its critics.

Combine that with the fact that games are a relatively new medium, and they tend to be a convenient target when something bad happens. The intent of the Extra Credits project is to begin providing a voice to the gaming industry and change some discourse.

Personally, I approve of it simply for spawning threads like this one where people consider the issue.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Even in modern times, we get "wonderful" moments like people claiming that Harry Potter is Satanic or that television is too violent and is desensitizing our children.

It's a sad state of affairs, but I saw a review for Kung Fu Panda stating that the movie had torture. I immediately figured out what they were talking about, but Tai Lung pinning down Shifu in a chokehold in the middle of their fight and demanding the dragon scroll was not torture.

[Ailurus]

I've personally had literally life-changing experiences from a game more than once:
.....
The best way to prove to someone that games are wonderful is to give them a wonderful game and let them play it. The argument the game itself provides trumps anything you could come up with to explain what it does through words. If they can't (or won't) understand the justification the game gives for itself, how do you expect to convince them with your half-baked rationalization?


I want to agree with you, but I think there's one big problem with your argument. I agree with games having amazing and even life-changing moments. But, telling people to go play the game to experience it for themselves? Not going to happen.

One example, I'm going to take Legion and the fate of the geth from the Mass Effect games. I don't know if it qualifies as life changing, but regardless its a very good take on prejudice, free will, slavery, what does it mean to be 'human', even what does it mean to be alive. Its definitely worth playing, and addresses those questions as well as (better in my opinion) any book or movie could.

Yet, think back to ME1's release, and the people who were going on about how it was an alien sex simulator. Go ahead and try to get them to play the game through to experience it. They'd laugh you out of the room. Sure, they're kind of an extreme case, but even those people would at least listen if you told them about a book or film or play or something that addressed the exact same issues. And there's plenty of people who aren't as nutty as those guys who still don't think of games as much more than toys.

And that's why I think what Extra Credits is trying is a good idea. Because something has to change for people to start thinking of games as something beyond toys. Time alone could accomplish that, especially if more 'serious' games get created for mobile devices. But who knows how long that will take? Why not try to accomplish something now, rather than waiting an indeterminate amount of time?

[Mx.Silver]

You can use those as a medium to do good via promoting charity (i.e. "I'm doing this thing, sponsor me"), say, but games can do that equally well (e.g. the Escapist's annual Desert Bus drive for one).


True, but if I were playing devil's advocate, I would point out that most of those other mediums don't overwhelmingly promote a charity designed around giving-out works in that medium. Not that I have anything against Childsplay mind, they do certainly seem to make sick children's lives a bit more bearable.


In general though I'd agree with you. Although I do think we could stand to see some more educational (or at least informative) games that don't suck, because there aren't exactly a lot of those kicking around.





I think Crosshaw has the best definition of "art": Art is something that causes a deep and meaningful emotional experience in the mind of the experiencer. This means that what counts as "art" is subjective because something can be thought-provoking to one person and meaningless drivel to another, but I think that's okay. I've personally had literally life-changing experiences from a game more than once: If you haven't then I honestly feel sorry for you, but so what? I care about games because they matter to me, as tautological as that may sound.
I'd consider that a really poor definition because it turns what should be (and is used as) a descriptive term into a purely normative one. This is leaving aside the fact that an awful lot of things cause a 'deep and meaningful emotional experience' that intuitively we do not consider art (e.g. sporting events, marriage proposals, funerals, etc.).

In any event though, it's not really related to the topic at hand. I wouldn't dispute that videogames are by and large an artistic medium (although, as with books, photography and film, not all individual works are necessarily art).

[Craft (Cheese)]

They're already on trial, though. The comparison they're making is that movies and publishing of various sorts have a humongous lobby. Anyone that doesn't think Disney has deep pockets isn't paying enough attention. On the other hand, with games, big companies have been generally meek and silent, unwilling to tackle controversial topics or to defend their art from its critics.

Combine that with the fact that games are a relatively new medium, and they tend to be a convenient target when something bad happens. The intent of the Extra Credits project is to begin providing a voice to the gaming industry and change some discourse.

Yeah, and Disney's pockets are used to fight for copyright extensions. The gaming industry should have lobbyists in place to fight against bigoted anti-game legislation attempts? Fine, but this is not at all what Extra Credits is arguing. They're worried about changing the murder simulator conversation on the talk shows.

[factotum]

I'm of the opinion that this is a self-fixing problem, given time--as people who grew up playing videogames move into positions of power in the media and politics, this sort of knee-jerk "let's blame it on the gamers" culture will fade away. It'll be a few years yet before that happens (David Cameron is considered rather youthful for a British PM, yet he was born in 1966 and quite possibly missed the first big boom in videogaming due to it being seen as kid's stuff at the time), but it will eventually.

On a similar note, I'm not sure that drives like Extra Credits are going for will do much good, laudable though their aims are, while the "old guard" are still calling the shots.

[Grinner]

Yeah, and Disney's pockets are used to fight for copyright extensions. The gaming industry should have lobbyists in place to fight against bigoted anti-game legislation attempts? Fine, but this is not at all what Extra Credits is arguing. They're worried about changing the murder simulator conversation on the talk shows.

The EFF? The videogame industry funnels enough into their pockets that I would hope they would represent in these cases.


I'm of the opinion that this is a self-fixing problem, given time--as people who grew up playing videogames move into positions of power in the media and politics, this sort of knee-jerk "let's blame it on the gamers" culture will fade away. It'll be a few years yet before that happens (David Cameron is considered rather youthful for a British PM, yet he was born in 1966 and quite possibly missed the first big boom in videogaming due to it being seen as kid's stuff at the time), but it will eventually.

On a similar note, I'm not sure that drives like Extra Credits are going for will do much good, laudable though their aims are, while the "old guard" are still calling the shots.

I've noticed this pattern too. Unfortunately, that means politicians are generally thirty to forty years behind the curve.

[Slipperychicken]

So, know of any games which you can say the world is better for their existence?

Helping people express themselves, enjoy their time, and have fun makes the world a better place.

[Rosstin]

I'm of the opinion that this is a self-fixing problem, given time

I agree with this.

However, making fun games that address a social issue or shift culture can still be a great thing.

I always have a huge axe to grind about diversity in games-- the more we can show the way by pushing forward feminism, racial equality, and gay rights in games, the better. The greatest thing is that we don't have to make an issue game to do that. All we have to do is have gay people, people of diverse races, and women as complex, interesting, powerful characters in games. In a medium where some of the most famous characters aren't even human, that can't be too much to ask.

[warty goblin]

I agree with this.

However, making fun games that address a social issue or shift culture can still be a great thing.

I always have a huge axe to grind about diversity in games-- the more we can show the way by pushing forward feminism, racial equality, and gay rights in games, the better. The greatest thing is that we don't have to make an issue game to do that. All we have to do is have gay people, people of diverse races, and women as complex, interesting, powerful characters in games. In a medium where some of the most famous characters aren't even human, that can't be too much to ask.

Since I'm feeling pessimistic this afternoon, gaming is also the medium where straight white males fail endlessly to make interesting, powerful straight white male characters. I look forwards to a future where the non straight white males have access to the same stable of banal cliche dispensers I've had access to all my life. Truly the road to equality is paved with wince inducing one-liners.

[Lord Seth]

Combine that with the fact that games are a relatively new medium, and they tend to be a convenient target when something bad happens. The intent of the Extra Credits project is to begin providing a voice to the gaming industry and change some discourse.Like when? Sure, years ago that was a thing, but, at least in popular culture, I can't think of any real blame being placed on video games for much of anything anytime recently. The worst you get is people complaining about World of Warcraft being addicting, which to be blunt is kind of true.

In the present, I honestly don't see video games as getting more blame or causing more controversy than all the other forms of media. I'd say television tends to be the most targeted form of media for this kind of thing.

[Slipperychicken]

The worst you get is people complaining about World of Warcraft being addicting, which to be blunt is kind of true.

I've heard the reward system of WOW resembles addiction, and was intentionally based on it.

Also, it's hard to argue otherwise when you log into voice-chat on a MMORPG while playing and hear the persistent cries of their neglected children in the background. For hours.

[Ailurus]

Like when? Sure, years ago that was a thing, but, at least in popular culture, I can't think of any real blame being placed on video games for much of anything anytime recently.


Don't want to drag this into a real world politics discussion, so I'll just provide one link and one quote from a recent event.



The shooter is described as macabre video gamer trying to win "points"

source (http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/03/18/newtown-sandy-hook-adam-lanza-massacre-school/1996455/)

[KillingAScarab]

There is at least one other person on this forum who is aware of this already, but for those that aren't, there's a challenge undertaken for charity which will be starting in one week called the Final Fantasy 5 Four Job Fiesta (http://fourjobfiesta.com). The challenge applies restrictions on what jobs a player is allowed to use when playing Final Fantasy 5 (any version, though cartidges have been encouraged in the past). The jobs are assigned by a bot through a Twitter account and people may pay to use different jobs than what they were assigned, but most of the money raised seems to come from people who pledge X amount of money for every Y people who complete the game, or meet other conditions such as beating both of the two optional boss fights (Omega and Shinryu) in the final dungeon. The money raised goes to Child's Play (http://childsplaycharity.org), which is the same charity Penny Arcade set up around the time of the height of Jack Thompson-foolery to provide hospitals with video games and other toys.

I actually just came across an interview with Hiroyuki Ito (http://www.1up.com/features/final-fantasy-hiroyuki-ito-science), who worked on the battle system for a number of Final Fantasy games, including FF V. The interviewer actually asked the programmer if he was aware of the Four Job Fiesta. He said no at the time, but I have to wonder if Eric Koziol (https://twitter.com/revenantkioku), whom I believe to be the principal organizer the Four Job Fiesta, hasn't heard anything from him since.

[Lord Seth]

Don't want to drag this into a real world politics discussion, so I'll just provide one link and one quote from a recent event.


source (http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/03/18/newtown-sandy-hook-adam-lanza-massacre-school/1996455/)
And how much, in terms of the general public's perception, did the video game thing come up at all? Heck, even in the article you point to the video game mention is practically a minor tidbit.

I'm really unconvinced at this point that video games get blamed more than all the other forms of media that are out there. If someone thinks that the media gets more blame than it deserves for real world violence (and from my admittedly limited understanding of psychology, there are some strong arguments for and against that idea), fine, but I don't see video games getting more blame than something like television.

[bobthe6th]

I think people noticed the fact games take a large chunk of what causes violence (adolescent males with nothing to do but walk around...), and got them to sit indoors for hours on end. As the general decline in violent crime since video games became a thing shows...

[russdm]

Frankly, in my experience, I have rarely seen other media besides Video Games brought up when things happen. When shooting stuff like what Adam Lanza did happens, video games are usually pointed it as a cause despite the existence of other media that depict violence as well.

Personally, i view the argument against as fairly hypocritical because most anti-video gamers fail to mention anything about other media and their possible effects on things. Studies get done about the connection to violence and video games, but we don't see any studies about other media and its connection to violence. Are video games the only sole cause of violence? Mainstream media, like tv, film, news, would have you believe it.