[3.5] Help me find minions!

[Phelix-Mu]

Hello Again,

Well, it's epic levels, and stuff has gotten silly. We've accomplished much, yet the universe is still going down the crapper. We have epic spells, and the DM has accepted very generous mitigation, but the spells are mostly buffs and such. Enemies are still proving to be difficult via plot challenges and non-combat stuff that leaves us off-balance.

So, as a monk/wizard, my character has just been advising on epic spell development, tanking, and heading up the slush fund (which has been a great success).

And still I find myself wanting for more power and influence. So, Mission Next:

Please suggest/discuss all available ways to secure minions for a universe-hopping epic campaign.

I'm interested in reliability and durability, so things like cohorts rank over followers, constructs over homunculi, and familiars over animal companions, and the like.

I don't care about the source of the minion. Feats, class features, racial abilities, spells...give me everything you have.

Stuff that won't work due to plot or character reasons:
-Summoning/binding: we're outside the D&D multiverse, so aside from elementals, most summoning has failed, as has calling and such. If you think a particular idea cool enough to mention, go ahead, as we are transitioning to different universes every few levels, and stuff might work in the future. If it can be done via epic magic (non-summoning), like the shadow seed, go ahead and post it.

- My character is LG. Anything that is in with this kind of alignment would be best, but frankly, we are fighting Cthulu/Tharizdun-Gundam and his interdimensional army of epic-level goons/cultists, who are armed with high-tech weapons, so my character would probably consider a change of MO if it would give her a good advantage.

Anyway, thanks for the help.

[Xervous]

I recall that there is an epic spell that creates a sentient race of creatures. You may have something there if you combine it with a ludicrously accelerated region of the time stream.

[Phelix-Mu]

The only limiter that the DM has so far put on the campaign is entirely plot-related time variations that seem very difficult to exploit. This is because the variation we just encountered happened about a week before some serious, very bad plot complications, and coincided with a plane where magic was heavily restricted. Really, as soon as the enemy got their hands on the God-Sephiroth clones, we were kind of screwed. Now we're running around a major cluster-youknowwhat, and I'm just looking for a way to remain relevant should we survive.

Origin of Species epic spell is nice, and I guess you could make a short-lived, fast-breeding species that was perfectly loyal. It's tantamount to depriving sentient creatures of free will, though, so that would be automatic alignment change.

My character would be much more likely to develop self-cloning or the like, as she's already heavily dabbled in a simulacra network, all telepathically linked and psychic-reformed to specialize in various skills and research. They're fairly limited, though, and have their own special limitations (worthless in combat beyond suicide missions). Clone plus some variation in the mindswapping might be worth investigating more.

Sigh. Epic levels and NI possibilities can require lots more time to work out.:smallconfused:

[unseenmage]

The Rod of Construct Control from AaEG. Equip an army of Simulacra with them, visit Mechanus (or preferrably a plane with nonsentient constructs), and bam, double your army.
You could also work up an Epic spell that does the same thing only on a massive scale.

Again, Epic spell a version of Incarnate Construct. They're not mindlessly loyal but they view you as friendly. How many hundreds/thousands of friends are worthwhile?
Could use Epic Animate Objects/Permanency/Fabricate for humanoid shaped constructs made of whatever matter is handy if Mechanus isn't an option.

Could custom magic item rules up some Leadership/Landlord feat items for yourself and your Simularca. 37,500gp should put both in a headband.

As epic spells can do basically ANYTHING you could replicate the Thrallherd's psionic field trait. Gather absolutely loyal followers without mindraping them. They just wish to serve you, nothing evil about it.
That isn't to say that such absolute power couldn't still corrupt but you're already flinging epic casting about anyway so 'absolute power' is already at your fingertips.

The last time I played an Epic character I played for the long long term. Set up Genesis and a Golem civilization. Modified Golem Manuals to be wondrous architecture (Golem Table) and set Golems to building more Golems and more Golem Tables on a schedule that took the growth of the plane into consideration. Each new generation of Golem would also relay my control over the new generation via rote repetition of my commands.
I believe we even set up some Altars that auto cast Genesis over and over to help grow the plane.
I wonder how that place is doing, havn't visited in a few hundred years, should be interesting to go back and run the numbers.

Hope some part of that helps.

[shaikujin]

I would say stick with constructs if at all possible. They are less prone to being compromised/bribed.

Maybe something along the line of Eberron's House Cannith with working creation forges. Churning out endless constucts.

Or do you need an army like, right now?

If so, then undead shadow wight apocalypse. Fluffed to good deathless type instead? Akin to LoTR's Oathbreakers.

[Phelix-Mu]

I like these ideas. Incarnate construct is less useful than awaken construct, which my character would probably prefer. Though, for versatility, having both types around might be nice.

We are outside the D&D multiverse (which probably has been eaten by Tharizdun by this point...he already killed Ao, who was Overgod of the D&D-verse). So I probably can't visit Mechanus, and it might be deserted if I did.

We did try the demiplanes, but we had to leave that multiverse, and subsequent multiverses have lacked Ethereal/Astral Planes/classic cosmology, and I guess we've been to trigger shy about more experimenting. Plus, it's not as useful, since we've been burning through universes at a ridiculous rate, and we seem to lose access to old stuff attached to the previous multiverse whenever we cross the Void between multiverses.

Otherwise construct army is in. Part of my problem is that it isn't my character that personally has access to Epic Spellcasting. She just got access to 4th level spells, and is the closest thing the party has to a melee tank (sorry, Mr. Fleshraker). So I have to rely on the CN/N half-fey elf druid or the CN DWK sorcerer/incantatrix, neither of whom mesh well with the LG grey elf int-based monk/wizard (and it's not because those characters are stupid...really, it's not). So, I can talk them into stuff that helps the whole party (like the month-long +20 force armour that also has a built in contingency to rescue a character's items if one of us gets vaporized...all too common, or mythals and such), but I probably shouldn't rely on them for helping me mass produce intelligent golems. Especially not Mr. Mindless Destruction kobold. Already regretting helping him develop that sonic disruptor spell that deals damage all over the place in 16 chunks of 500 points, chunks that can overlap. The kobold clone we fought last session was packing that. Almost one-shotted half the party.

Can I mindswap on a simulacrum? More than an army of individually sentient, free-willed constructs, I'd like to copy my own mind and blow it into some android bodies. We're currently in a high-techie verse (at least parts of it), so I might be able to come up with some high-tech android blanks. I guess I'd need to remove the immunity to mind-affecting stuff, mind-switch, then return them to being an android.

Ah, such cheese. Have to keep reminding myself of Tharizdun-kun and his machine gun-toting flunkies.

MORE CHEESE.:smallwink:

[dr_doomtron]

Well if you could create undead this would be a lot easier but as it is leadership and epic leadership are basically required. Then id suggest legendary commander which multiplies your number of followers by 10. Now make as many of those followers as possible artificers, wizards, or anything that can craft constructs and have all of them that can take the leadersip feat as well and so on down the line. If you can swing a necromancer in there somewhere, maybe as a cohort? Then dread necromancer is hard to beat for minion control as well.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Emerald Legion (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=101587) maybe.

[Phelix-Mu]

Emerald legion has it's appeal, but would require a pretty ruthless taskmaster to manufacture single-handedly (BREED, YOU UNDEAD TROLLS), and I also don't have access to classic D&D monsters. I guess you could epic spellcasting one from scratch.

Constructs sounds altogether more wholesome.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

For Constructs, I'd use the Effigy Creature template in CA. Use something like a Legendary Tiger and throw on Paragon Creature and all ~42 varieties of Half-Dragon, as templates that don't increase HD/size won't increase its cost.

[Phelix-Mu]

Oh, now we're getting closer to my character's sweet spot. Army of robot tigers? YES, PLEASE.

I'm not sure I'd drop half-dragon stacking on our DM. My system mastery trumps his rather soundly, and I don't want to provoke trans-Skype book-throwing. I can probably manage with Paragon Legendary Tiger Effigies, for the ridiculously low price of *produces arbitrarily large stack of platinum bars*...oh, right, we don't count money much these days.

I'm also looking at cohorts, but probably not followers, as that stands to be a number of relatively weak people that I can't reliably bring with me. I might need to repopulate entire worlds in Tharizdun's wake, though, so maybe worth considering. I'll eventually be able to qualify for Epic Leadership, and it's more power than just about any other single feat at this level.

[Mithril Leaf]

You're probably fighting things that can be rebuked by some sort of domain or another. Thus, if you pick up an advanced epic construct, toss the Sacred Guardian template on it (from Bestiary of Krynn IIRC) for the turning ability, and then give it planar touchstone for Catalouges of Enlightenment along with the epic turning feats, you can probably rebuke some of the elder evils you're fighting. The domain is one of the ones that lets you rebuke the big bad. Snag assorted rebuke boosters as needed.

[unseenmage]

I'm also looking at cohorts, but probably not followers, as that stands to be a number of relatively weak people that I can't reliably bring with me. I might need to repopulate entire worlds in Tharizdun's wake, though, so maybe worth considering. I'll eventually be able to qualify for Epic Leadership, and it's more power than just about any other single feat at this level.

Remember that those low level dudes can be cool and even useful if optimized right.
Savage Species has rituals that you can use to change their race, Teamwork Benefits from PHB2? and the Marshal class can let them be decent in combat.
Psychic Reformation lets you rewrite them to be even more effective too.
Heaven forbid if you use them for evil sacrifice or equip them all to the teeth with epic items.

There's also Circle Magic and using thousands of low level follower types to shatter the action economy.
Equip them with the right sight boosting items and give them all Magic Missile at will items and you'll have a barrage of Force damage that's awesome to behold.

Do it right then just dare thing-thulhu to stick it's tentacled nose in that dimension. It'll get it Magic Missile-ed off!

[Mithril Leaf]

Remember that those low level dudes can be cool and even useful if optimized right.
Savage Species has rituals that you can use to change their race, Teamwork Benefits from PHB2? and the Marshal class can let them be decent in combat.
Psychic Reformation lets you rewrite them to be even more effective too.
Heaven forbid if you use them for evil sacrifice or equip them all to the teeth with epic items.

There's also Circle Magic and using thousands of low level follower types to shatter the action economy.
Equip them with the right sight boosting items and give them all Magic Missile at will items and you'll have a barrage of Force damage that's awesome to behold.

Do it right then just dare thing-thulhu to stick it's tentacled nose in that dimension. It'll get it Magic Missile-ed off!

You can always make use of followers being hairy spiders and creating a nanobot build. Those are fun.

[Phelix-Mu]

I'm now considering a slight re-alignment of resources to pick up Epic Leadership ASAP, and I'll have a ton of followers, and I'll try to talk the DM into some variety of build-a-follower.

I like the ideas. Effigies are in my future!

Keep it coming!:smallbiggrin:

[unseenmage]

I'm now considering a slight re-alignment of resources to pick up Epic Leadership ASAP, and I'll have a ton of followers, and I'll try to talk the DM into some variety of build-a-follower.

I like the ideas. Effigies are in my future!

Keep it coming!

A note on Leadership, you get to choose their alignment, race, and class. In 3.0 they were restricted to NPC classes only but as of #.5 they can be PC classes as well.

[Phelix-Mu]

A note on Leadership, you get to choose their alignment, race, and class. In 3.0 they were restricted to NPC classes only but as of #.5 they can be PC classes as well.

Eh? Really? I thought it was a bit of creative license when I let my players have PC followers....

Can you source me where it says that? Would be much appreciated.

[unseenmage]

One assumes the book to go into slightly more detail. Definitely Power of Faerun would (it's THE Leadership text after all) but these are from the SRD.


A character can try to attract a cohort of a particular race, class, and alignment. The cohort’s alignment may not be opposed to the leader’s alignment on either the law-vs-chaos or good-vs-evil axis, and the leader takes a Leadership penalty if he recruits a cohort of an alignment different from his own.


Followers are similar to cohorts, except they’re generally low-level NPCs.

Sorry I don't have a better source on this. I ignored it for my own Leadership build recently, it was more flavorful for my character to chain leadership of PC classed/prestiged Cohorts but leave Followers as NPC classes only.