Shapeshift Druid

[Ruethgar]

So a shapeshifter druid can take the form of whatever it wants from level one as long as it is an animal or nature-oriented. It gives suggestions on what these forms normally are, but no limitations to what it could be apart from that one line. So one could assume the form of say an Elemental Weird, definitely nature oriented, and eligible for the lovely broken feat Assume Supernatural Ability for Prescience and get free action at will divining of the most broken sort.

My main question is, if you shifted into a lycanthrope and had Assume Supernatural Ability(Lycanthrope: Alternate Form) and then used alternate form, what would happen? Would it fail since you are leaving the form that gave you the ability? Would it give you the stat boosts for shifting into a lycanthrope hybrid/animal form? Would you still be considered shifted by the druid power and thus still have +4 strength and AC?

[Leon]

You would Assume the shape of the *whatever* but your stats are going to be the ones that the Level of Druid gives you.

At lvl one these will be that of the Predator type and you could look like a flying green octagon and your still going to only get the Predator Forms Stats and upgrades added on your base stats.

The shapes you can assume are still limited by both what area you know of (familiar Terrain and Climate) and by what the DM allows.

[Waddacku]

The form you take is just cosmetic. You gain nothing from it, so this just doesn't work.

[Ruethgar]

How does Assume Supernatural Ability not apply? Do the general rules for shapeshift override the feat that modifies them?

[Leon]

By the way the Shapeshift rules are written the Feat you are looking at doesn't apply.

You are Shifting into a Combat Form that happens to look like a Panther/Wolf/Wolverine. The Combat Form is what is giving you the raw stats and abilities.
What you look like is just cosmetic.


Example: The Druid is a ball of Clay, it is shaped into the pattern of a Tiger. The Clay is what provides the Abilities and the Stats.

At a later date that same clay is remodeled into another shape that suits the moment better but keeps the same overall bonuses (Depending on level and Combat Form chosen as base)

[togapika]

The rules for shapeshift only give you the specific abilities mentioned for the forms of shapeshift. You could look like an elemental weird, but at level 1 you still be getting the same abilities as if you looked like a tiger or something and nothing more.

"Each time you use this ability, you can choose the exact look that your shapeshifted form takes. For example, a druid from a jungle might adopt
the form of a black panther when in predator form, while one
from the taiga might shapeshift into a white wolf. The two
forms look different, but functionally they’re identical"

[supermonkeyjoe]

To put it another way: the shapeshifter druid can take certain forms, predator, aquatic etc. These forms can have a different appearance but they are still the same base form

Assume supernatural ability only applies to changes in form

[Ruethgar]

Form is the physical shape of something, appearance is how the light reflects off of it. It is the difference between Disguise Self and Alter Self. If you shape shift into a medium constrictor you do not have the same form of a wolf even though it may be from the same ability and you have the same stats.

As to this quote.

"For example, a druid from a jungle might adopt the form of a black panther when in predator form, while one from the taiga might shapeshift into a white wolf. The two forms look different, but functionally they’re identical"

This is a clear separation between two forms assumed with the same ability as different forms with the same benefit from the shapeshifting. Also the little bit that you "adopt the form of a black panther."

"This form, traditionally that of a wolf, panther, or other predatory mammal, is the first one a shapeshifting druid learns."

Form is the noun modified by "traditionally that of a wolf..." further supporting that you take the form of the creature in question.

Predetor Form etc. are just the names of the abilities, if the Polymorph spell were called New Form, New Form would not be the form you took, the effect of the spell determines that.

[galan]

you just lost the discussion. "but functionally they’re identical" means that IC you can describe how the hell you want- but the stats are the same. the point of these "tricks" is actually reading the rules and understanding them, not just ignoring the stuff you don't like.

[Ruethgar]

The function of the forms is identical, you still only have the +4 str, +4 AC one bite and 50 speed. You don't constrict for being a snake, trip for being a wolf or pounce for being a cat from the shapeshift ability, but Assume Supernatural Ability modifies such a form away from the norm providing an exception. Similar to how Natural Spell and Surrogate Spellcasting modify the general rules of a form away from the norm.

[togapika]

You may choose to look like an Elemental Weird, but if you are using the shape shift ability to do it, YOU ARE NOT AN ELEMENTAL WEIRD.

In other words, stop trying to gain an advantage by ignoring the rules, if you want to do that, make your own game.

[Ruethgar]

You don't have to be an elemental weird you just have to assume its form, which you do. I do not know to which rules you refer, feats generally override other abilities when they conflict.

[togapika]

You DO NOT assume its form, you assume the form "Predator" or whatever the name is of the form you use, you merely LOOK LIKE something else such as an elemental weird.

[Ruethgar]

So what are the dimensions of Predator Form? If you only have the appearance of whatever creature you choose but the form of the Predator Form, then it must have a defined shape. If you merely looked like something else and did not have its form and shape, there would be a clause for one to tell that it is an illusion when they interacted with it.

[TuggyNE]

Pretty sure the size modifier is actually given somewhere for the various forms, but basically: you turn into something that looks like whatever you're mimicking, possibly resized to fit. So you could be a stretched weasel in predator form.

[Leon]

The Default size is Medium or Small (with no penalties for being small which is nice given how much D&D penalizes small PCs everywhere else) Advancing by One Step At Ferocious Slayer Form and then by Two at Elemental Fury Form (8 & 16 Respectively)

These sizes cap out at Colossal. For Large or larger PCs you would adjust the Form Damage values to match the relevant size and reach for those shapes.


A further Point on what the Form is: in the shape of a Wolf, you have none of its "wolf" abilities. You have the Abilities that your Druid Level in that Combat Form provides (Which mostly is a Natural Attack, a Stat & AC Buff along with a speed boost. Then there is a feat while in that Form as a later upgrade)

The Feat Assume Supernatural Ability is one of the many that are only applicable to the broken shambles that Wildshape is.

[Ruethgar]

Medium size is not defined dimension, it is a defined range with infinite possibilities. The shape of a three dimensional being and its form are one and the same. If you are the shape of a wolf your form is that of a wolf. You may not be a wolf, you don't get the abilities of a wolf, but you have its shape, its form. Assume Supernatural Ability does not specify that is only functions with Wild Shape, I don't know where you got that notion. It functions with polyporph and similar effects whenever you take the form of something, not when you become that creature, just when you have the form of that creature.

[Decatus]

Assume Supernatural Ability does not specify that is only functions with Wild Shape, I don't know where you got that notion. It functions with polyporph and similar effects whenever you take the form of something, not when you become that creature, just when you have the form of that creature.

This is the problem, I think. Polymorph, Shapechange, Wildshape, etc., are all based on the Polymorph subschool of spells from the more full list of Transmutation effects. The Shapeshift Druid ACF is not.

Assume Supernatural Ability does, in fact, work with Wildshape and Polymorph effects exactly because they are polymorph effects. Shapeshift is not. Polymorph and like effects change both your appearance as well as your form - in such a case, you actually become the creature you are imitating for all intents and purposes. Shapeshift, on the other hand, merely changes your appearance and grants you certain specific benefits (ie: a natural weapon, stat boosts, or a size change, natural armor).

That, then, is the main difference. Polymorph effects actually change you into the creature, allowing you access to its inherent abilities, and allowing Assume Supernatural Ability to tap into the magical/supernatural reserves inherent to that form in order to bring fourth even more power.

This plays into the fact that the feat reads (I'm quoting a small portion of the text for fair use): "You learn to use a single supernatural ability of another kind of creature while assuming its form through a polymorph self spell or a similar effect..." (Savage Species, page 30)

In D&D 3.5/3.0 Polymorph and "similar effects" all fall into the polymorph subschool of spells, or the ability in question is explicitly called out to function as the polymorph spell.

Shapeshift, on the other hand, simply changes you to look like something. You do not take its form. You do not count as that creature - you retain your own type, subtype, gain no feats nor skill bonus' from your new form, etc. This (the fact that Shapeshift is not a polymorph effect) is a specific rule and, as we all should know, specific trumps general in D&D 3.5, thus Assume Supernatural Ability does not function with the ACF.

[Ruethgar]

In D&D 3.5/3.0 Polymorph and "similar effects" all fall into the polymorph subschool of spells, or the ability in question is explicitly called out to function as the polymorph spell.

Where is this stated?

[togapika]

Since the rules state that what you are attempting to accomplish does not work, and you seem both unwilling and unable to accept this, I suggest you go make up your own game, since ignoring the rules of D&D makes it cease to be D&D.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Where is this stated?

Player's Handbook 2, page 96. Final paragraph in the Polymorph Subschool section.

[Just to Browse]

I think the thing that really kills the argument is:


polymorph self spell or a similar effect

Shapeshift isn't similar to polymorph. It has basically no mechanic text in common.

[Kuulvheysoon]

There's also this line from the Shapeshift ACF itself -


You don't gain any special attacks or qualities while shapeshifted except as described below.

So you get what it says, and nothing else. If you continue to try and finagle this into working, please feel free to take it to the Q&A thread and get Curmudgeon to answer it. He'll tell you the exact same thing that we've been trying to tell you.

[Leon]

The Op simply is not grasping that what he wants wont work as he wants it and wont take any other answer than what he wants to see.

[Ruethgar]

The original main question has yet to be answered and is entirely applicable whether or not it works with Assume Supernatural Ability.

A Hengeyokai Lycanthrope Shapeshift Druid shifts into hybrid crane form, then hybrid fleshraker alternate form, then Predator Form, what would happen?

[Waddacku]

I don't see anything that would cause them not to stack, though there might be an exception somewhere.