GEAS...what?

[leegi0n]

Can this spell be used to cause one PC to attack another?

[Matticussama]

Yes. The only restrictions that the spell has are stated in the description; you cannot order them to kill themselves, or to take an action that would result in certain death. However, since the two PCs should be on a comparable power level, it would be well within the power of Geas to order someone to attack their party member.

[leegi0n]

thank you. Is there a "MASS" form of this?

[Chen]

The penalty for not following a Geas is so weak though that no one in their right mind would attack another PC (that could very well kill them) instead of taking the 3d6 damage and a fort save to be sickened.

[leegi0n]

The penalty for not following a Geas is so weak though that no one in their right mind would attack another PC (that could very well kill them) instead of taking the 3d6 damage and a fort save to be sickened.

How do you save to resist following this enchantment? If it is cast on you, there is no save to resist it according the the RAW...unless I'm reading it incorrectly. The 3d6 only comes in if you are "prevented" from following the orders that come with GEAS.

Right?

[Piggy Knowles]

The penalty for not following a Geas is so weak though that no one in their right mind would attack another PC (that could very well kill them) instead of taking the 3d6 damage and a fort save to be sickened.

Geas is a compulsion spell - I've always read that as meaning they don't have the option of just refusing to obey orders and sucking up the damage, anymore than someone who gets hit with a suggestion spell can simply say, "Eh, I don't feel like it, what happens to me if I don't?"

I assumed the 3d6 damage and sickened save was just if they were actively PREVENTED from fulfilling the geas.

But I could be wrong? Wouldn't be the first time... If so, geas is a considerably weaker spell than I thought.

EDIT: Ninja'd Rakshasa'd?

[leegi0n]

EDIT: Ninja'd Rakshasa'd?

indeed. Rakshasa'd. :smallbiggrin:

[ericgrau]

If you refer to lesser geas (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/geasLesser.htm) you'll see that it is in fact not optional and the penalties apply only to being unable to complete the task. However it does say that clever recipients can subvert orders. So be careful how you word it. For example consider the Geas "Kill your fellow PC Joe". As I'm on my way to kill my fellow party member, I'd be shouting at the top of my lungs "I'M MAGICALLY COMPELLED TO KILL JOE. YOU SHOULD KNOCK ME UNCONSCIOUS."

[Chen]

Hmm guess I was remembering back in a previous version (maybe 2nd ed?) where you either chose to do the Geas'd action or you suffered the penalty. The fact you're FORCED to do the actions now makes the spell pretty overpowered I'd think considering there's no save.

[cerin616]

Or, if you said just to attack him, I might throw a pebble at him and roll a ranged attack.

Or fight defensivly and try to miss.

or, back to throwing a pebble, move so far that its a huge range increment with massive penalties.

[Pilo]

Plus, you didn't say "kill him now!" So he can wait as long as he want before trying to kill the other PC, he even has got enough time to kill the caster of geas before.

[leegi0n]

As I said in the initial post, it would be stated as an attack...a more detailed command like eat his face off, now.

[Chen]

Actually I guess the 10 min casting time of Geas makes it less OP in combat (pretty useless actually unless you can drop that time) but still makes for a pretty disastrous spell to cast on PCs if they've been captured. There doesn't seem to be a limit on the complexity of the command so you could come up with something pretty convoluted that would be very hard to get out of:

"Kill [Bob] in the most efficient and expedient way you can to the exclusion of all other activities except breathing which you may do normally and eating and drinking if the task takes sufficient time such that you are on the verge of dying of hunger and/or thirst, in which case you may eat and drink such that you are no longer on the verge of dying of hunger and/or thirst, after which you will continue in your actions to kill [Bob]"

You could probably even write that up so its not one giant sentence since there doesn't seem to be a limit on that either in the spell.

[leegi0n]

Actually I guess the 10 min casting time of Geas makes it less OP in combat

Is there a way to lessen that casting time? Haste or Quicken, maybe?


"Kill [Bob] in the most efficient and expedient way you can to the exclusion of all other activities except breathing which you may do normally and eating and drinking if the task takes sufficient time such that you are on the verge of dying of hunger and/or thirst, in which case you may eat and drink such that you are no longer on the verge of dying of hunger and/or thirst, after which you will continue in your actions to kill [Bob]"

WOW, you should be a lawyer. Or a legal transcript preparation artist or something. :smallbiggrin:

[sonofzeal]

Notably, a Kolyarut with the feat "Supernatural Transformation" can use Geas 1/week as a standard action.

......not that I recommend throwing that against your players. :smalleek:

[Piggy Knowles]

Channel it via Ordained Cuampion? Attack + geas sounds fun.

[Jeraa]

Is there a way to lessen that casting time? Haste or Quicken, maybe?

Haste has no effect on spellcasting at all. It just allows you to move faster, get an extra attack during a full attack action, and a minor AC/Reflex save bonus.

Quicken Spell is also useless. It can not be applied to any spell with a casting time greater then 1 full round action.

[Amnestic]

Depending on your/the DM's reading of the ability, the Baleful Geas Greater Invocation (Dragon Magic, pg.79) is arguably a standard action. It deals strength damage to the target regardless of whether or not they're attempting to carry out the order, and only ends once they reach Strength 0 or fulfill the order. Those immune to strength damage take a piddly (2d4) amount of HP damage instead. It does have an HD restriction that they can't have more HD than you though, unlike the Geas spell.

[Thomar_of_Uointer]

Is there a way to lessen that casting time? Haste or Quicken, maybe?

Yes, you can use a scroll.


This is the activation method for scrolls. A scroll is a spell that is mostly finished. The preparation is done for the caster, so no preparation time is needed beforehand as with normal spellcasting. All that’s left to do is perform the finishing parts of the spellcasting (the final gestures, words, and so on). To use a spell completion item safely, a character must be of high enough level in the right class to cast the spell already. If he can’t already cast the spell, there’s a chance he’ll make a mistake. Activating a spell completion item is a standard action and provokes attacks of opportunity exactly as casting a spell does.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicItemBasics.htm#spellCompletion

[FleshrakerAbuse]

Wait... the Rules Compendium, source of errata, said that scrolls, wands, and whatnot have same activation time as the spell they hold. Nerveskitter is a immediate action, and by logic a long ritual to geas someone from a scroll of magic is still 10 minutes.

[Gildedragon]

"Kill [Bob] in the most efficient and expedient way you can to the exclusion of all other activities except breathing which you may do normally and eating and drinking if the task takes sufficient time such that you are on the verge of dying of hunger and/or thirst, in which case you may eat and drink such that you are no longer on the verge of dying of hunger and/or thirst, after which you will continue in your actions to kill [Bob]"

You could probably even write that up so its not one giant sentence since there doesn't seem to be a limit on that either in the spell.

Problem with that is:
a) it precludes strategizing, which means that fighting a pc-classed individual of comparable level causes certain death; as no self buffs, deffensive actions or tactical choices (go for higher ground, disarm, tunble past to get them flatfooted etc) can be made
b) it precludes autonomic functions like a heartbeat and brain function, as such it causes certain death

Furtermore, note that the wording on the damage: "Each day it does not attempt to follow the geas" the implication being they can choose not to follow it. Because if trapped/restrained, trying to break out, or planning a breakout (even a 'get released on good behavior' breakout), is an attempt to follow the geas to kill [Bob].

So even if your geas took hold, the target can worm their way out by taking the damage.
Lesser Geas strikes me as more potent but it has a saving throw and HD cap

[Flickerdart]

Furtermore, note that the wording on the damage: "Each day it does not attempt to follow the geas" the implication being they can choose not to follow it.
Not necessarily. Remember that the creature can attempt to subvert the orders given to it; there was even an example upthread that if you say "kill Bob", but do not specify a time, the geased creature can choose, on any given day, not to kill Bob right now, but takes damage, because it is not following the geas on that day.

The definition of a (Compulsion) spell is "A compulsion spell forces the subject to act in some manner or changes the way her mind works. Some compulsion spells determine the subject’s actions or the effects on the subject, some compulsion spells allow you to determine the subject’s actions when you cast the spell, and others give you ongoing control over the subject." (emphasis mine). Compulsion spells, all compulsion spells, force the subject to act or change the way their mind works. Neither of these outcomes permits the target affected to say "yeah I'm not gonna do it", and the text in the spell does not make a more specific case to override this general rule. Additionally, given that lesser geas says that the creature must follow the instructions, and geas says it is "similar to lesser geas, except..." and then doesn't say the creature can refuse, it is logical to conclude that the requirement still applies.

[Gildedragon]

Mhmm.
I see. Yeah. That is quite the pickle if the casting time can be brought down.

[ahenobarbi]

Miracle or Wish would work.

[ericgrau]

Wait... the Rules Compendium, source of errata, said that scrolls, wands, and whatnot have same activation time as the spell they hold. Nerveskitter is a immediate action, and by logic a long ritual to geas someone from a scroll of magic is still 10 minutes.

What's more is that this is also hidden in the SRD:


Activating a magic item is a standard action unless the item description indicates otherwise. However, the casting time of a spell is the time required to activate the same power in an item, regardless of the type of magic item, unless the item description specifically states otherwise.

And then in the section immediately following that rule it describes every activation method and says that each one takes a standard action.

[TaiLiu]

Anima Mage's Vestige Casting capstone can shorten the casting time to an immediate action once a day.