Mental Ability Score based Martial Characters and Physical ability score based caster

[Gwazi Magnum]

Now, this half-what probably belongs in homebrew because I'm asking this for the sake of ideas to help with the class I'm working one here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=286986).

But I'm asking it here because I want to see if there is stuff already made that allows this so homebrewing more won't be needed. And if 3.5 does have nothing like this at the moment, hopefully some ideas can be made at least.

Anyway's, the question is that is there a way to make effective and powerful Martial Characters who depend on the mental ability scores (Intelligence, Wisdom and Charisma)?

If so how? Note: I'm already aware of Knowledge Devotion. But I'm hoping that's not the only mental ability score dependent thing martial classes have going for them.

And in this same respect I'm wondering if spell casters ever have a strong use for the Physical Ability Scores (Strength, Constitution and Dexterity). And not to where they may want it to start at 14 and that's enough. But important enough that it may be a score they would want to invest a lot into.

[shaikujin]

Ahh something similar has been done before. But I see that you've got a familiar.

That totally unbalances the class. For a more balanced class see here:

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Lightning_warrior_%283.5e_Class%29


:D

[Gwazi Magnum]

Ahh something similar has been done before. But I see that you've got a familiar.

That totally unbalances the class. For a more balanced class see here:

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Lightning_warrior_%283.5e_Class%29


:D

I'll look at the class.

But what do mean by having a familiar unbalances the class?

[shaikujin]

That post wasn't serious :D


The Lightning Warrior is an example of a homebrew class that's totally overpowered. As a running gag, folks will say "No, it's not overpowered at all, look, it doesn't even have a familiar".

Just do quick search of the forum.



Serious reply though, your home brew is quite OP'd.

In general, melee classes should get high HP like D10 and D12, full BAB. Moderate class skills. 1 or 2 good saves. Good weapon and/or armor proficiencies.

Skill monkeys with special abilities (non full spellcasting), should get 3/4 bab, good class skills selection, d8 HP. Moderate weapon/armor proficiencies.

Spellcasters gets 1/2 BAB or 3/4 (if gishy), d4 (or d6, d8 depending on how gishy it is). Weak weapon/armor proficiencies.



Your d10 HP with full BAB, good weapon/armor proficiencies alone puts it on par with a fighter (though it's a weak class).

Bonus every level instead of alt levels means it's much better than a fighter.

Giving it 5th level spell casting, max skill points with all skills as class skills, and a vast range of selectable features to pick up signature abilities of other classes is over the top.



The acid test is that, if given this class to play, would people select to play this class without a second thought and ignore all other classes?

Would most of them?

Would half of them?

Would none of them?



Also, Tome of Battle has 3 melee types that each utilizes a different mental stat - Cha, Wis, Int. Would be a good reference to check up on.

[Piggy Knowles]

And in this same respect I'm wondering if spell casters ever have a strong use for the Physical Ability Scores (Strength, Constitution and Dexterity). And not to where they may want it to start at 14 and that's enough. But important enough that it may be a score they would want to invest a lot into.

Aeshkrau and uurkrau illumians base the bonus spells for any classes off of strength or dexterity, respectively. They're nice choices for gish builds for that reason, as it's an easy way to avoid MAD. I've got an uurkrau archer in my archer build compendium and an aeshkrau duskblade gish that I put together recently, and what I consider to be the iconic Swiftblade, the Zero Buff Time Gish (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/29775337/), also uses aeshkrau.

But those are all gishes. The closest to a true caster that uses a physical stat I can think of is the Wizsassin (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/29138521/Weekly_Optimization_Showcase:_Wizsassin), which focuses on spells that require ranged touches and also has a good use for stealth skills, making a good case for uurkrau.

[Emperor Tippy]

Yes, Grey Elf Cobra Strike Monk 2 (Invisible Fist and Decisive Strike ACF's)/Factotum 16/Mindbender 1/ Rogue 1 with Kung Fu Genius, Faerie Mysteries Initiate, Darkstalker, Mindsight, Craven, Spring Attack, and everything else as Font of Inspiration (if starting at higher level use Vow of Poverty Chaos Shuffle for extra feats).

Use Cunning Surge to take move (using Tumble to not provoke AoO's and take the full speed penalty, with Brains over Brawn you will make the check every time), make a decisive strike as a full round action and use Cunning Insight for Int to Attack (along with True Strike from a Craft Contingent if you feel like it) using a Dagger, proceed to spend 5 IP per attack for Int to Attack and Damage. If the enemy is flatfooted then they are all sneak attacks.

At ECL 20 you can have 90 IP and thus make 17 such attacks. Each will deal (using a Collision Dagger) +28 damage which Decisive Strike doubles for +56. If you use Wraithstrike those are all against touch AC, and each also gets +13 to hit from your Int.

The only stat you need to worry about is Int, although Dex is nice as well. Max both of those and you are golden.

Int based melee.

You can also do much the same thing with a Factotum archer (Factotum actually makes the best archer in the game).

There are numerous ways to do Cha and Wis.

[Gwazi Magnum]

That post wasn't serious :D


The Lightning Warrior is an example of a homebrew class that's totally overpowered. As a running gag, folks will say "No, it's not overpowered at all, look, it doesn't even have a familiar".

Just do quick search of the forum.



Serious reply though, your home brew is quite OP'd.

In general, melee classes should get high HP like D10 and D12, full BAB. Moderate class skills. 1 or 2 good saves. Good weapon and/or armor proficiencies.

Skill monkeys with special abilities (non full spellcasting), should get 3/4 bab, good class skills selection, d8 HP. Moderate weapon/armor proficiencies.

Spellcasters gets 1/2 BAB or 3/4 (if gishy), d4 (or d6, d8 depending on how gishy it is). Weak weapon/armor proficiencies.



Your d10 HP with full BAB, good weapon/armor proficiencies alone puts it on par with a fighter (though it's a weak class).

Bonus every level instead of alt levels means it's much better than a fighter.

Giving it 6 level spell casting, max skill points with all skills as class skills, and a vast range of selectable features to pick up signature abilities of other classes is over the top.



The acid test is that, if given this class to play, would people select to play this class without a second thought and ignore all other classes?

Would most of them?

Would half of them?

Would none of them?



Also, Tome of Battle has 3 melee types that each utilizes a different mental stat - Cha, Wis, Int. Would be a good reference to check up on.

The class is designed to be used in campaigns where it's the only class players can play as.

The goal being to allow characters to make the characters they want to have.

Fighter is generally regarded as a weak class, so I'll take the fact it's better than Fighter as a good sign.

Though if you look at spell casting it stops at level 5 spells so it's potential of game breaking is limited.
Then if you look beyond the main post you'll find a spellcraft DC system being discussed where if implemented would make magic more unstable and unpredictable (and I have yet to even decide what happens if the spell back fires by a lot and harms the player casting it).

So magic... is restricted a lot in that regard so it's gain boosts in other areas.

The BAB is honestly, melee is normal.
If you're a caster you'll have minimal use for it, but at least when you do need to use a sword you can be decent at it.
But martial made characters will still fair better due to feats, ability scores etc also adding to their accuracy.

The health I admit might be a little much for the spell casters. But the idea is to give characters some flexibility, and with how weaken spells got, I figured extra health could come in handy. (Hell if it's a high risk high reward caster, most of that health will be lost by the caster failing to cast his own spells and them back firing).

The skill points was for role play reasons.
I found with d&d classes usually the 2 + Int and 4 + Int classes have just enough to cover skills you need mechanic wise and never leave much room for fleshing your character out. The extra skill points serve to flesh out the character.

That's just the thinking I had when designing it though. And like stated above, it's meant to be used where it's the only class PC's can be, so it won't be competing with other classes any ways.

I'll be sure to take another look at Tome of Battle though for ideas. :)

[mattie_p]

Iaijutsu Master, popular with gnome quickblade, has its key skill based on charisma. And cancer mage with festering anger, combine with the illuminated.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Aeshkrau and uurkrau illumians base the bonus spells for any classes off of strength or dexterity, respectively. They're nice choices for gish builds for that reason, as it's an easy way to avoid MAD. I've got an uurkrau archer in my archer build compendium and an aeshkrau duskblade gish that I put together recently, and what I consider to be the iconic Swiftblade, the Zero Buff Time Gish (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/29775337/), also uses aeshkrau.

But those are all gishes. The closest to a true caster that uses a physical stat I can think of is the Wizsassin (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/29138521/Weekly_Optimization_Showcase:_Wizsassin), which focuses on spells that require ranged touches and also has a good use for stealth skills, making a good case for uurkrau.

I'm sorry, but you're listing a ton of classes I have never even heard of in the slightest before.


Yes, Grey Elf Cobra Strike Monk 2 (Invisible Fist and Decisive Strike ACF's)/Factotum 16/Mindbender 1/ Rogue 1 with Kung Fu Genius, Faerie Mysteries Initiate, Darkstalker, Mindsight, Craven, Spring Attack, and everything else as Font of Inspiration (if starting at higher level use Vow of Poverty Chaos Shuffle for extra feats).

Use Cunning Surge to take move (using Tumble to not provoke AoO's and take the full speed penalty, with Brains over Brawn you will make the check every time), make a decisive strike as a full round action and use Cunning Insight for Int to Attack (along with True Strike from a Craft Contingent if you feel like it) using a Dagger, proceed to spend 5 IP per attack for Int to Attack and Damage. If the enemy is flatfooted then they are all sneak attacks.

At ECL 20 you can have 90 IP and thus make 17 such attacks. Each will deal (using a Collision Dagger) +28 damage which Decisive Strike doubles for +56. If you use Wraithstrike those are all against touch AC, and each also gets +13 to hit from your Int.

The only stat you need to worry about is Int, although Dex is nice as well. Max both of those and you are golden.

Int based melee.

You can also do much the same thing with a Factotum archer (Factotum actually makes the best archer in the game).

There are numerous ways to do Cha and Wis.

I'm looking for non-gaming wreaking ones though.

Plus that combination wouldn't really be possible for the class I'm working on (hence the reason of this topic).

Would you be able to tell me what exactly it is in that combo that makes Intelligence so important?
That way I can take a better look at it's individual elements?


Iaijutsu Master, popular with gnome quickblade, has its key skill based on charisma. And cancer mage with festering anger, combine with the illuminated.

I'll be sure to check them out, thanks. :)

[shaikujin]

The class is designed to be used in campaigns where it's the only class players can play as.

The goal being to allow characters to make the characters they want to have.

Fighter is generally regarded as a weak class, so I'll take the fact it's better than Fighter as a good sign.

Though if you look at spell casting it stops at level 5 spells so it's potential of game breaking is limited.
Then if you look beyond the main post you'll find a spellcraft DC system being discussed where if implemented would make magic more unstable and unpredictable (and I have yet to even decide what happens if the spell back fires by a lot and harms the player casting it).

So magic... is restricted a lot in that regard so it's gain boosts in other areas.

The BAB is honestly, melee is normal.
If you're a caster you'll have minimal use for it, but at least when you do need to use a sword you can be decent at it.
But martial made characters will still fair better due to feats, ability scores etc also adding to their accuracy.

The health I admit might be a little much for the spell casters. But the idea is to give characters some flexibility, and with how weaken spells got, I figured extra health could come in handy. (Hell if it's a high risk high reward caster, most of that health will be lost by the caster failing to cast his own spells and them back firing).

The skill points was for role play reasons.
I found with d&d classes usually the 2 + Int and 4 + Int classes have just enough to cover skills you need mechanic wise and never leave much room for fleshing your character out. The extra skill points serve to flesh out the character.

That's just the thinking I had when designing it though. And like stated above, it's meant to be used where it's the only class PC's can be, so it won't be competing with other classes any ways.

I'll be sure to take another look at Tome of Battle though for ideas. :)

Sorry didn't see the disclaimer.

Right, if it's meant to be the only class players can take, with options deciding their build, it'll be viewed in a different light. I can see you've put in a lot of effort into it.

Better than fighter is good imho, yup.



The Factotum and Chameleon might be worth a look as well. Along the lines of instead of full BAB, you get 3/4 BAB. Then one of the feats/options will allow a +1 bonus to hit (or even actual BAB) every 5 levels.

For spell access, my thought would be a feat is required to unlock every spell level. Allow it to go up to level 9 spells, but requirements would be limited to 1 spell level every 2 character levels (or you can use HD to loosen up restrictions for folks that might want to play as monsters).

For skill access, split into a few packages (1 that's useful for melee combatants, 1 for scholars/wizards, 1 for generic stealth skills). With each feat adding all skills in a certain package as class skills. All other skills not listed above will be the default class skills.

Just my 2 cents :D

[Asgardian]

There are some PRCs

Champion of Gwynharwyf -gives Barbarians spell casting using the Wisdom as a casting stat and Charisma as a boost like a paladin for Smite Evil and Divine Grace

If you decided to go Blood Magus or Rage Mage PRC (... A high Con score is a must

[Emperor Tippy]

Would you be able to tell me what exactly it is in that combo that makes Intelligence so important?
That way I can take a better look at it's individual elements?
Factotum gives Int to attack and Int to damage (at the cost of 1 IP each), Int to Initiative checks and all Str and Dex skills and checks (Brains over Brawn), Factotum 16 gives you Int to AC.

Kung Fu Genius gives you Int to AC from running the monk abilities off of Int, the Cobra Strike variant gives you Dodge and Mobility so that you can get spring attack for a single feat (actually making it worthwhile), while Invisible Fist gives you one round Invisibility once every 3 rounds as an Immediate action.

Rogue gives you +1d6 sneak attack to get you Craven (+ character level to Sneak Attack damage).

Mindbender gives you 30 ft. telepathy that lets you take Mindsight which lets you detect every creature with an Int score within 30 ft. (and is practically impossible to block).

Faerie Mysteries Initiate gives you Int to HP if you are a Gray Elf. And Keen Intellect will give you Int to Will Saves so you might want to grab that as well.

So the end result is Int to Initiative, Int to most physical skills, Int to attack, Int to Damage, Int to AC (twice), Int to HP, and Int to Will Saves.

[shaikujin]

Another interesting idea to play with, is to use feats as some sort of "buy" system.

Base chassis is something like 1/2 BAB, 2 skill points per level, 1d4 HP. Weak weapon/armor proficiency

Then use the feats to upgrade each portion.

Give the class say 5 bonus feats that's selectable at level one.

Making a class that players have to think about more and optimize tend to engage them better and gives a sense of achievement. Increasing the enjoyment level.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Sorry didn't see the disclaimer.

Right, if it's meant to be the only class players can take, with options deciding their build, it'll be viewed in a different light. I can see you've put in a lot of effort into it.

Better than fighter is good imho, yup.



The Factotum and Chameleon might be worth a look as well. Along the lines of instead of full BAB, you get 3/4 BAB. Then one of the feats/options will allow a +1 bonus to hit (or even actual BAB) every 5 levels.

For spell access, my thought would be a feat is required to unlock every spell level. Allow it to go up to level 9 spells, but requirements would be limited to 1 spell level every 2 character levels (or you can use HD to loosen up restrictions for folks that might want to play as monsters).

For skill access, split into a few packages (1 that's useful for melee combatants, 1 for scholars/wizards, 1 for generic stealth skills). With each feat adding all skills in a certain package as class skills. All other skills not listed above will be the default class skills.

Just my 2 cents :D

It's fine, I did type a fair amount on that page about the class. Stuff will get missed time to time. :p

I'll take another look at Factotum. Though I'm iffy on dropping the BAB since it's mean to be a one class system and if the classes BAB drops, that means martial characters BAB is dropping too.

I kind of already have feats accessing spell levels. Only instead of feats it's special abilities.
But you buy the special abilities with bonus feats so there's minimal difference anyway's. :P
It already is separated that way to be once every 2 character levels, though capped at Level 5 because I've seen the amount of broken-ness players can do with just that let alone higher level spells.

As for HD... maybe. But HD does prevent people from taking class levels with them for a reason.
Plus the group I plan to use this for personally never goes for that stuff. Though if another person wanted to use the class with a group that liked being monsters I'd have no problem at all with then altering it in a way to work with monsters better.

More power to them for being able to fine-tune for their campaigns.

The skill packages. I get what you mean from a balance perspective. But at the same time it does one of the main things I'm trying to avoid with the class which is divide characters into 'roles' like "You're the melee guy" and "You're the stealthy guy".

I'll consider it though.

As for factotum, I tend not to like the class much myself (so I don't have much experience with it) but I will give it another look if it has something that could potentially help with the class I'm making.

[Gwazi Magnum]

There are some PRCs

Champion of Gwynharwyf -gives Barbarians spell casting using the Wisdom as a casting stat and Charisma as a boost like a paladin for Smite Evil and Divine Grace

If you decided to go Blood Magus or Rage Mage PRC (... A high Con score is a must

Spell casting Barbarians? Now that's a new one.

For the blood magus and rage mage. Does it work like Dwarf sorcerer where they just making the casting score Constitution?


Factotum gives Int to attack and Int to damage (at the cost of 1 IP each), Int to Initiative checks and all Str and Dex skills and checks (Brains over Brawn), Factotum 16 gives you Int to AC.

Kung Fu Genius gives you Int to AC from running the monk abilities off of Int, the Cobra Strike variant gives you Dodge and Mobility so that you can get spring attack for a single feat (actually making it worthwhile), while Invisible Fist gives you one round Invisibility once every 3 rounds as an Immediate action.

Rogue gives you +1d6 sneak attack to get you Craven (+ character level to Sneak Attack damage).

Mindbender gives you 30 ft. telepathy that lets you take Mindsight which lets you detect every creature with an Int score within 30 ft. (and is practically impossible to block).

Faerie Mysteries Initiate gives you Int to HP if you are a Gray Elf. And Keen Intellect will give you Int to Will Saves so you might want to grab that as well.

So the end result is Int to Initiative, Int to most physical skills, Int to attack, Int to Damage, Int to AC (twice), Int to HP, and Int to Will Saves.

... That is some damn good use of Intelligence there.

I'll defelently need to look some of that over, thanks. :)


Another interesting idea to play with, is to use feats as some sort of "buy" system.

Base chassis is something like 1/2 BAB, 2 skill points per level, 1d4 HP. Weak weapon/armor proficiency

Then use the feats to upgrade each portion.

Give the class say 5 bonus feats that's selectable at level one.

Making a class that players have to think about more and optimize tend to engage them better and gives a sense of achievement. Increasing the enjoyment level.

I've had stuff like that with past systems. It normally resulted in players getting either

a) A bit too bogged down/over whelmed at character creation and then unengaged for the most part at level ups.
b) Just min/maxing the class, ignore skills, high health. So now it might not be the character of their image. Just the character that helps them survive the best.

[shaikujin]

Ahh, I see your point.

True, if you just give it full BAB, all skills as class skills etc, it'll simplify lots of calculations and streamline both character selections and during play.

In that same vein, you can consider giving it all good saves, it doesn't really add all that much. HP remains at d10 just for the simplicity of HP calculations (instead of d12).

Limiting spells at level 5 is good and should remain.


Tippy has already provided an Int build (using Kung Fu Genius/Camendine Monk, Factotum). Warblades fit in nicely.


Here's a Wis based build
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7194308&postcount=3


Cha builds normally includes Paladin/Sorceror/Warlock. Look up Sorcadin or Clawlock or Glaivelock.

[thethird]

There is a con based shugenja in the Rokungan campaign setting.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Ahh, I see your point.

True, if you just give it full BAB, all skills as class skills etc, it'll simplify lots of calculations and streamline both character selections and during play.

In that same vein, you can consider giving it all good saves, it doesn't really add all that much. HP remains at d10 just for the simplicity of HP calculations (instead of d12).

Limiting spells at level 5 is good and should remain.


Tippy has already provided an Int build (using Kung Fu Genius/Camendine Monk, Factotum). Warblades fit in nicely.


Here's a Wis based build
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7194308&postcount=3

Cha builds normally includes Paladin/Sorceror/Warlock. Look up Sorcadin or Clawlock or Glaivelock.

Honestly with how often combat happens, I've found if you're anything but pure spells you pretty much need a full BAB, and the skills is largely for roleplay reasons.

Nice wisdom build.

Some cool stuff there, though a lot of it I had implemented already :p
That page is being update constantly... so there's probably a number of things there now that weren't there when you looked at it.

I know sorcerer's is pretty much just spells, and that's been covered.
Paladin it's the divine grace, covered.
Lay on hands, smite and turn undead... not so much.

I probably should add something like that though now that I think about it.

Warlock I have no experience with though in 3.5


There is a con based shugenja in the Rokungan campaign setting.

I'll give it a look, thanks. :)

[Mr.Bookworm]

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Lightning_warrior_%283.5e_Class%29

:D

You actually linked to the wrong Lightning Warrior. The other one (here (http://www.myth-weavers.com/wiki/index.php/Lightning_Warrior)) is pretty balanced due to it's lack of familiar, but the one you linked to is just godawful.

[shaikujin]

You actually linked to the wrong Lightning Warrior. The other one (here (http://www.myth-weavers.com/wiki/index.php/Lightning_Warrior)) is pretty balanced due to it's lack of familiar, but the one you linked to is just godawful.

You are right! My bad!

[mangosta71]

Psychic Warrior and melee-focused Ardent builds both emphasize high WIS, though admittedly they also prioritize STR.