Vampires vs Liches

[Chad30]

So these are probably the two most powerful undead, unless there's something more rare that a more knowledgeable D&Der knows about. Which do you think is more powerful? Liches are powerful spellcasters, while Vampires have a lot of different tricks. Who would you be more afraid to face? Who would win in a fight between the two?

I'd probably be more worried about a vampire, since they're trickier. You walk into a foggy room, looking for monsters, when suddenly the fog has eyes and you have to make a will save just to not be enthralled.

[137beth]

Neither of them have undead-ablities which are comparable to the power of a full-spellcaster. Within OOTS, the only lich around is much, much more dangerous than every vampire in the world combined. This isn't because he's a lich, though, it's because he is an epic sorcerer.

[rgrekejin]

I'm not entirely convinced that this shouldn't be in the general D&D forums, but yeah, I'll agree with 137ben. Which template is more powerful depends almost entirely on who the template is given to. If we're taking the same base character and then adding the template to it, I think the vampire probably gives a better overall set of bonuses and abilities, but it depends a lot on what you're trying to do.

[Xelbiuj]

Liches, they're harder to kill, you have to destroy their phylactery, they don't have a bunch of easily exploited weaknesses, and while this is technically a mark against them, they don't reproduce just by biting people. When something's creation is that easy, it's typically not that great.

[Copperdragon]

If we're just speaking of templates, I'd also go for vampire. In itself, it brings more to the table (including the lower requirement to become one).

I'm not really seeing a conntection to Order of the Stick. Anyway, let's keep a look at the posed question: a comparison in form of a fight "Vampire vs. Lich" would probably go to the Lich, as undead he's immune to a lot of what makes the Vampire the more powerful template.
What exactly happens depends a lot on the base creature (I think, for example, a Rouge would benefit more from that template than a Fighter would).

[Severus Drape]

Liches, by far. They can enter freely wherever they want and even die without much of a problem, something vampires can't do.

[Thlayli]

Here's how we make it about OOTS. Malack vs. Xykon. Discuss.

[AstralFire]

Here's how we make it about OOTS. Malack vs. Xykon. Discuss.

Durkon would have had Malack beaten if not for Malack's backdoor.

Xykon roflstomped Darth V.

Xykon by a country mile.

[rgrekejin]

Here's how we make it about OOTS. Malack vs. Xykon. Discuss.

Xykon might have some moderate difficulty completely destroying Malack, but I have difficulty imagining Malack being able to hurt Xykon much at all. This one isn't even close.

[Reddish Mage]

There's not much here for Xykon vs. Malack. Xykon is Epic Level and a Sorcerer, and Malack is mid-level and a Cleric. Even if the vamp template was better than a Lich it wouldn't make up for the difference.

The real question is Lich Xykon vs. Vampire Xykon, and Lich Malack vs. Vampire Malack.

[Reathin]

Well, Liches have a lower level adjustment. Can't remember if their defenses were any better or worse (their stat adjustments are definitely worse than vampires), but they have infinite free ressurections. It never ceases to amaze me how often that gets underestimated. A smart lich who is paranoid about keep his/her phylactery safe is functionally unstoppable. Plus, they don't have the nasty weaknesses of vampires, chiefly sunlight.

I'd go with Lich 9 times out of 10, all other factors (level, equipment, optimization) being equal.

[Arcane_Secrets]

Here's how we make it about OOTS. Malack vs. Xykon. Discuss.

I wouldn't call that a fair comparison because they're not equivalent level, though. That said, if they were equivalent level (and even equivalent age), I'd still have to give it to Xykon because he's a lot more ruthless and he has fewer limitations on what he can or can't do. (As just one example, he could dispel Malack's protection against sunlight spell and then devise a hostile dimension door that'll move Malack into open daylight.

[Chad30]

I'm not entirely convinced that this shouldn't be in the general D&D forums, but yeah, I'll agree with 137ben. Which template is more powerful depends almost entirely on who the template is given to. If we're taking the same base character and then adding the template to it, I think the vampire probably gives a better overall set of bonuses and abilities, but it depends a lot on what you're trying to do.

Yeah, I probably should have put this in general DnD. I just mainly come here, so I posted here without think much about it.

[Amphiox]

Here's how we make it about OOTS. Malack vs. Xykon. Discuss.

That's not a question of who would win.

That's a question of how many rounds it would take for Xykon to completely obliterate Malack, and how many levels must Malack gain before that number has a reasonable chance of being higher than 3.

[AdmiralCheez]

I don't think it's really fair to put anyone up against Xykon in a one-on-one duel, as he's pretty much the most powerful being in the setting (aside from the gods and maybe the MitD). As the Oracle (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0567.html) once put it...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/redxiv/oracle.gif - "Dude is frickin' scary."

[Chad30]

I'm certain Xykon can beat Malack, and I think it's stated early that the Monster is more powerful than Xykon. He's the guy's secret weapon, and when he really wants something badly enough, he gets it.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I think it's stated early that the Monster is more powerful than Xykon.

No, he almost certainly isn't (we can't know for certain until we see what MitD is, of course). The evidence is that MitD is Xykon's most powerful minion, but Xykon doesn't strike me as the kind of evil guy who keeps minions that are more powerful than himself.

Grey Wolf

[MichaelGoldclaw]

Liches be crazy :smallbiggrin:

I would put my money on a lich. Those things are pretty damn nasty.

[Chad30]

No, he almost certainly isn't (we can't know for certain until we see what MitD is, of course). The evidence is that MitD is Xykon's most powerful minion, but Xykon doesn't strike me as the kind of evil guy who keeps minions that are more powerful than himself.

Grey Wolf

I think it's implied that he is. He sends shockwaves through the air and ground just by raising his voice or stomping the floor. He lost a game of hitting the lightest when he catapulted Miko so far out of the tower, it was off screen. I forget the strip, but I remember him mentioning he asked for something silly, and complained until he got it. sure he's a minion, but he isn't ruled by fear. He's ruled by trickery. Why would a lich as powerful as Xykon need to trick something into believing they're friends to get them to serve him? Undead minions complain less, yet Xykon has yet to attack him for being annoying or making demand for toys. kes Xykon stronger than the Monster?

[saltysugar96]

but Xykon doesn't strike me as the kind of evil guy who keeps minions that are more powerful than himself.


I think Shelby would agree.

[thereaper]

SoD spoilers
Xykon has the MitD under an enchantment to eat RC if he ever betrays Xykon, so it's unlikely that MitD is more powerful than Xykon.

[BobVosh]

If Malack has a form of evasion it might not be too bad of a fight between the two. As a vampire he has a reasonable bonus to dex, probably has some form of resistance item, and therefore would have a decent chance to make a reflex save. On top of this, he has a fast healing and vampiric immunites to a lot of Xykon's stronger spells.

That said we have only seen one epic spell, and a bare handful of Xykon's true spell list. He is entirely capable of being far, far more dangerous than we have seen. I would vote Xykon wins, but it will be slow. If Malack has a ring of evasion, at least. If not, Xykon wins quicker.


SoD spoilers
Xykon has the MitD under an enchantment to eat RC if he ever betrays Xykon, so it's unlikely that MitD is more powerful than Xykon.
Or that the MitD is just exceptionally weak willed. He doesn't seem all that strong in the mental stats, regardless of his playing of Go.

[SoC175]

The MitD isn't more powerfull then Xykon

SoD spoilers
When Xykon cast his mind-controlling spell on it, the very first attempt already worked. Not much of SR / saves the MitD has to resist Xykon]

[Belril Duskwalk]

So these are probably the two most powerful undead, unless there's something more rare that a more knowledgeable D&Der knows about.

Dracoliches and Demiliches. Much worse than regular Liches.
Demiliches are Liches that have advanced beyond the need for a body. They are incorporeal and employ a series of EIGHT phylacteries instead of a single one.
Dracoliches are dragons that become liches.
I am unsure if there are even rules for either in 3.5. I've been trying to relocate the exact specs for them in my 2nd Ed. books, but the search is going poorly.

As to whether a Vampire or a Lich is more powerful, a basic Vampire is perhaps more powerful than a basic Lich, but on the average Liches are much more likely to be seriously potent spellcasters as well, which puts the Lich back ahead again.

[hamishspence]

Demiliches are Liches that have advanced beyond the need for a body. They are incorporeal and employ a series of EIGHT phylacteries instead of a single one.
Dracoliches are dragons that become liches.
I am unsure if there are even rules for either in 3.5.

Demilich is in Epic Handbook (3.0- updated to 3.5 in a web enhancement, also the online SRD), Dracolich is in Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting (3.0) and updated in Draconomicon (3.5).

[KillianHawkeye]

Dracoliches and Demiliches. Much worse than regular Liches.
Demiliches are Liches that have advanced beyond the need for a body. They are incorporeal and employ a series of EIGHT phylacteries instead of a single one.
Dracoliches are dragons that become liches.

Don't forget about Lichfiends! Also, Illithilichs. :smallbiggrin:

[hamishspence]

Those are more "variant on the existing template" than "completely new template" though.

The Monstrous Vampire template (Ghostwalk) is basically the vampire template, opened to other races besides humanoids & monstrous humanoids, with a "tombstone" instead of a coffin.

The Vampire Dragon template (Draconomicon) is rather different- not having as many weaknesses as the standard vampire, and with different powers available.

[Pigkappa]

Vampires are stronger. As a vampire (basic template from MM), you can buy a bunch of potions to not look Evil and possibly undead, and spend a couple of months in a tavern in a big city. Whenever you see an adventurer who looks strong, you dominate him. You can try at will, just with your eyes; I'm not sure he will realize he's rolling Will saves, and even if he is it will take more than a few seconds to understand what's going on, so you can try several times.

With at-will dominate, you can literally have a little town of slaves with class levels.

[Chad30]

Well the Monster just seemed to be more powerful to me, since he kicks ass while literally not trying to. Its conversations with O'Chul seem to foreshadow that the only reason it's under Xykon's control is because it's willing to be.

I guess I could be wrong, though.

[Nymrod]

Vampires win cause they can steal drink coffee and have sex. Who wants to live forever with no sex and coffee????

[KillianHawkeye]

Vampires win cause they can steal drink coffee and have sex. Who wants to live forever with no sex and coffee????

This guy makes a valid point. :smallamused:

[Ciabhan]

So these are probably the two most powerful undead


Atropal. They have all the advantages and disadvantages of an epic undead along with those of an epic abomination. They can also command or rebuke undead more or less as a god seeing as they are basically undead gods(I do believe they are technically considered level 70ish-100+ clerics for the purposes of the command/rebuke depending on how old and powerful they are). So a vampire/lich/demilich that has what maybe 20HD at max is going to be instantly destroyed.

[dancrilis]

...
purposes of the command/rebuke
....
demilich

Will not work.

Demiliches are immune to all magical and supernatural effects
Turn or Rebuke Undead is a supernatural Ability.

A lot of people seem to forget that about Demiliches - they are basically immune to what you can do.

Hell the effects of an anti-magic sphere or disjunction are as nothing to them.

Now Atropal (CR30) may still be better then your bog standard level 21 Demilich (CR29) but after that I think the Demilich takes it.

[hamishspence]

Turn Resistance (Ex)
A demilich has turn resistance +20.

Would be a bit meaningless if their immunity to supernatural abilities (except for those that mimic a few spells they are specifically not immune to) included Turning Attempts as well.

[Ciabhan]

Will not work.

Turn or Rebuke Undead is a supernatural Ability.

A lot of people seem to forget that about Demiliches - they are basically immune to what you can do.

Hell the effects of an anti-magic sphere or disjunction are as nothing to them.

Now Atropal (CR30) may still be better then your bog standard level 21 Demilich (CR29) but after that I think the Demilich takes it.

Demiliches are not immune to turning. They have a +20 turn resistance but are not immune to it. You'd need to be able to turn as a level 41 cleric to turn it. Level 82 to outright destroy it. Immunity to spells and supernatural effects only works on things that would ordinarily be affected by spell resistance. Turning is not.

In fact I believe that wording may even be outdated as I don't believe the newer rules have the words "and supernatural" in them. The red text is the most recently written I can find. Dated 2011 so it's post 3.5.


SPECIAL ABILITIES

Immunity to Magic (Ex)

A demi-lich is immune to any spell or spell-like ability that allows spell resistance. In addition, certain spells and effects function differently against the creature, as noted below.
•A shatter spell deals 1d6 points of damage per two caster levels (maximum 10d6), with no saving throw.
•A power word kill spell cast by an ethereal caster deals 50 points of damage to the demi-lich if it fails a Fortitude save (DC 19 + caster’s relevant ability score modifier). Note: power word kill does not normally allow a save.)
•A holy smite spell affects the demi-lich normally.
•A dispel evil spell deals 2d6 points of damage, with no saving throw.



Spell Immunity (Ex)

A creature with spell immunity avoids the effects of spells and spell-like abilities that directly affect it. This works exactly like spell resistance, except that it cannot be overcome. Sometimes spell immunity is conditional or applies to only spells of a certain kind or level. Spells that do not allow spell resistance are not affected by spell immunity.




Magic Immunity (Ex)

Demiliches are immune to all magical and supernatural effects, except as follows. A shatter spell affects a demilich as if it were a crystalline creature, but deals half the damage normally indicated. A dispel evil spell deals 3d6 points of damage (Fort save for half damage). Holy smite spells affect demiliches normally.

Phylactery Transference (Su)

Headbands, belts, rings, cloaks, and other wearable items kept in close association with the demilich’s phylactery transfer all their benefits to the demilich no matter how far apart the demilich and the phylactery are located. The standard limits on types of items utilized simultaneously still apply.

Undead Traits

Immune to poison, sleep, paralysis, stunning, disease, death effects, necromantic effects, mind-affecting effects, and any effect requiring a Fortitude save unless it also works on objects. Not subject to critical hits, nonlethal damage, ability damage, ability drain, or energy drain. Negative energy heals. Not at risk of death from massive damage, but destroyed at 0 hit points or less. Darkvision 60 ft. Cannot be raised; resurrection works only if creature is willing.

Immunities (Ex)

Demiliches are immune to cold, electricity, polymorph, and mind-affecting attacks.

Turn Resistance (Ex)

A demilich has turn resistance +20.

[Arcane_Secrets]

No, he almost certainly isn't (we can't know for certain until we see what MitD is, of course). The evidence is that MitD is Xykon's most powerful minion, but Xykon doesn't strike me as the kind of evil guy who keeps minions that are more powerful than himself.

Grey Wolf

I often get the impression that Xykon doesn't know just how powerful the MitD really is. He certainly doesn't seem to have any suspicions that the MitD teleported V and the paladin away since if he did, impulse control isn't exactly a great personality trait for Xykon and he would've already tried to punish the MitD for saving his victims.

[Severus Drape]

I think the MitD is obviously far stronger than Xykon, technically wise.
However, he's got very low will saves, intellect and ability compared to him, so he'd still lose.

[Dire Lemming]

Liches, they're harder to kill, you have to destroy their phylactery, they don't have a bunch of easily exploited weaknesses, and while this is technically a mark against them, they don't reproduce just by biting people. When something's creation is that easy, it's typically not that great.
*Ahem.* Lucy.

[SavageWombat]

Vampires win cause they can steal drink coffee and have sex. Who wants to live forever with no sex and coffee????

Only twinkly vampires can have sex and drink coffee. Classic vampires drink blood instead of both.

[Obscure Blade]

Only twinkly vampires can have sex and drink coffee. Classic vampires drink blood instead of both.OOTS vampires aren't limited to blood! Malack's bloodwart tea is made of (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0871.html) blood and warts. So that's two things they can consume! :smallbiggrin:

[Bogardan_Mage]

Only twinkly vampires can have sex and drink coffee. Classic vampires drink blood instead of both.
Dhampyrs predate twinkly vampires by a good many centuries, which is why we have a word for them. Vampires can definitely have sex.

[Porthos]

Only twinkly vampires can have sex and drink coffee. Classic vampires drink blood instead of both.

Anita Blake and Sookie Stackhouse might disagree with that assesment. :smallamused:

Dhampyrs predate twinkly vampires by a good many centuries, which is why we have a word for them. Vampires can definitely have sex.

That too. :smalltongue:

[Kish]

Only twinkly vampires can have sex and drink coffee. Classic vampires drink blood instead of both.
Next you'll say that only "twinkly" vampires can go out in the sun safely.

(Explaining the joke: Sunlight vulnerability was something that was added to the vampire myth some time after its origin; the original vampires could and did go out in the sun freely.)

[Traab]

Only twinkly vampires can have sex and drink coffee. Classic vampires drink blood instead of both.

BTVS might want to argue that point too. Sex, drinking, smoking, partying, them vamps can do it all. Hell, I think they can even get high off drugs too. I vaguely recall an episode where buffy stumbles across a feeding house where people take drugs and let the vamps feed on them. They get the euphoria of being fed on, the vamps get drug laced blood.

[ZerglingOne]

Ghosts are probably the most powerful base undead. They have nearly all the advantages of Liches and Vampires and none of their downsides.

As far as a fight between a Lich and a Vampire, my money's on the Lich since a Lich is guaranteed to be a mid-high level spellcaster (which reign supreme in D&D) whereas the vamp isn't necessarily. Plus a Lich doesn't have nearly as many absolutely glaring weaknesses.

[KillianHawkeye]

Hell, I think they can even get high off drugs too. I vaguely recall an episode where buffy stumbles across a feeding house where people take drugs and let the vamps feed on them. They get the euphoria of being fed on, the vamps get drug laced blood.

That was not an episode of Buffy, it was an episode of Angel from Season 4 when Wesley and Faith were tracking down Angelus.

[Severus Drape]

BTVS might want to argue that point too. Sex, drinking, smoking, partying, them vamps can do it all.

Though most authors tend to depict those activities as "not that bad, but incomparable to blood-sucking".
Vampires can do such things, but the enjoyment they receive is not necessarily the same as humans, expecially sex.

[F.Harr]

Here's how we make it about OOTS. Malack vs. Xykon. Discuss.

DURKON versus Xykon, I think.

[Traab]

That was not an episode of Buffy, it was an episode of Angel from Season 4 when Wesley and Faith were tracking down Angelus.

Are you sure? I could have sworn she ran into her soldier boyfriend there.

[Chad30]

Next you'll say that only "twinkly" vampires can go out in the sun safely.

(Explaining the joke: Sunlight vulnerability was something that was added to the vampire myth some time after its origin; the original vampires could and did go out in the sun freely.)

I've heard of that, actually. They also didn't look beautiful. At all.

I remember a Buffy episode of people letting vampires drain them a bit, but it was the Humans getting high off having their blood sucked. The vampires let them live, so they'd keep coming back. The Vampires just got food. Not high.

Though there might have been an Angel episode that was similar.

[137beth]

I've heard of that, actually. They also didn't look beautiful. At all.

I remember a Buffy episode of people letting vampires drain them a bit, but it was the Humans getting high off having their blood sucked. The vampires let them live, so they'd keep coming back. The Vampires just got food. Not high.

Though there might have been an Angel episode that was similar.

Huh, I don't remember that one...weird.

[Chad30]

I think at least part of the episode was to help explain why bite victims suddenly go limp after they're bitten. Apparently there's something in the saliva that drugs them.

[KillingAScarab]

DURKON versus Xykon, I think.
:durkon: Xykon! I must go and warn master-
:xykon: *casts control undead from a scroll* Now, what were you going to warn me about?

[nyjastul69]

Okay, I'll bite, what the hell is a 'twinkly vampire'?

[Kish]

Stephenie Meyer wrote a series of novels, starting with Twilight, about vampires who have no weaknesses. Instead of avoiding sunlight because it burns them, they avoid it because in direct sunlight they sparkle like diamond and are easily recognizable as inhuman.

A number of people make fun of this, using "sparkly vampires" as shorthand. I'm guessing "twinkly vampire" is a variation of same.

[nyjastul69]

Stephenie Meyer wrote a series of novels, starting with Twilight, about vampires who have no weaknesses. Instead of avoiding sunlight because it burns them, they avoid it because in direct sunlight they sparkle like diamond and are easily recognizable as inhuman.

A number of people make fun of this, using "sparkly vampires" as shorthand. I'm guessing "twinkly vampire" is a variation of same.

TYVM. I've never heard of it before.

[SaintRidley]

Demiliches are not immune to turning. They have a +20 turn resistance but are not immune to it. You'd need to be able to turn as a level 41 cleric to turn it. Level 82 to outright destroy it.


Provided you're dealing with a wussy little level 21 demilich and not a real demilich.

[Chad30]

I wonder if Xykon may become a demilich.

[zimmerwald1915]

I wonder if Xykon may become a demilich.
What would be the point?

[Chad30]

I'm not sure if there would be much point, since he's already arguably the most powerful character in the series, but If a demilich is like a lich but more powerful, then maybe it's something for him to aspire to be.

[Traab]

I'm not sure if there would be much point, since he's already arguably the most powerful character in the series, but If a demilich is like a lich but more powerful, then maybe it's something for him to aspire to be.

If roy and gang ever manage to directly kick his ass I can see that being his new goal. "Well crap, this stopped being fun once I stopped being the big man on campus. Guess I need to move on to the next level." Then after that the storyline goes from stopping the snarl to stopping bone boy from ascending to the next level of badassery.

[dancrilis]

Demiliches are not immune to turning. They have a +20 turn resistance but are not immune to it. You'd need to be able to turn as a level 41 cleric to turn it. Level 82 to outright destroy it. Immunity to spells and supernatural effects only works on things that would ordinarily be affected by spell resistance. Turning is not.

In fact I believe that wording may even be outdated as I don't believe the newer rules have the words "and supernatural" in them. The red text is the most recently written I can find. Dated 2011 so it's post 3.5.

I am basing in of the last quote you placed up.


Demiliches are immune to all magical and supernatural effects


It is fairly clear cut.

Having a turn resistance outside of this may be a benefit in the event that something has turning without it being supernatural in nature.

If there is errata Demi-Liches down then it becomes a matter of which errata is in affect. But without knowing I think you have to go with book as written.

Book as written has them immune to turning, or such is my understanding.

[SaintRidley]

I'd agree. A demilich is immune to turning. If through some means you rendered it vulnerable to turning, it would still have +20 turn resistance to fall back on.

Turning is explicitly defined as follows:


Turning undead is a supernatural ability that a character can perform as a standard action. It does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
And the demilich in the SRD is the most up to date source on the creature.

[rodneyAnonymous]

....but If a demilich is like a lich but more powerful, then maybe it's something for him to aspire to be.

Not exactly, They are different, lose some abilities and gain others, net more powerful. It is kind of the "next level of arcane development" after lichdom, the undead body is abandoned (and usually reduced to just a skull).

http://polaqu.wikia.com/wiki/Demilich

[sockmonkey]

Next you'll say that only "twinkly" vampires can go out in the sun safely.

(Explaining the joke: Sunlight vulnerability was something that was added to the vampire myth some time after its origin; the original vampires could and did go out in the sun freely.)

IIRC the splody' in sunlight bit was from the film "Nosferatu" which changed a lot of stuff for copyright reasons. The Stoker novel simply had vampire powers be neutralized by sunlight.

I think it's important to consider the applied effectiveness of lich/vamp powers in the field since a straight-up powers arm-wrestling match is unlikely.
For instance, if the lich can teleport to the other side of the world where it's daylight, he has a distinct edge. The vamp is thwarted or must expend effort on some kind of sun protection that he'd better hope doesn't get dispelled.

[Traab]

IIRC the splody' in sunlight bit was from the film "Nosferatu" which changed a lot of stuff for copyright reasons. The Stoker novel simply had vampire powers be neutralized by sunlight.

I think it's important to consider the applied effectiveness of lich/vamp powers in the field since a straight-up powers arm-wrestling match is unlikely.
For instance, if the lich can teleport to the other side of the world where it's daylight, he has a distinct edge. The vamp is thwarted or must expend effort on some kind of sun protection that he'd better hope doesn't get dispelled.

If you have a ring that grants you an effect like Protection From Sunlight. Can the effect be dispelled? Or would you have to destroy the ring somehow first?

[Chad30]

On the off chance that the Vampire wins, just don't reach out to deal the finishing blow with the hand that has the ring on it. Learn from the failures of Sauron.

[veti]

IIRC the splody' in sunlight bit was from the film "Nosferatu" which changed a lot of stuff for copyright reasons. The Stoker novel simply had vampire powers be neutralized by sunlight.

I think that particular change was more about setting up a (for the time) spectacular visual climax to the movie, rather than avoiding copyright hassle. (An attempt that failed anyway...) But I believe you're right, the 1922 film is the earliest reference I know of to vampires being outright destroyed by sunlight.


If you have a ring that grants you an effect like Protection From Sunlight. Can the effect be dispelled? Or would you have to destroy the ring somehow first?

From the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dispelMagic.htm):
If the object that you target is a magic item, you make a dispel check against the item’s caster level. If you succeed, all the item’s magical properties are suppressed for 1d4 rounds, after which the item recovers on its own. A suppressed item becomes nonmagical for the duration of the effect.

There are probably other spells that target magic items more directly, but that's the most basic option.

To the OQ: Vampires have too many weaknesses, liches have nothing but strengths. Give the two templates to two level-21 wizards, make them mortal enemies, and I think the lich will come out on top at least 8 times out of 10.

[sockmonkey]

I think that particular change was more about setting up a (for the time) spectacular visual climax to the movie, rather than avoiding copyright hassle. (An attempt that failed anyway...) But I believe you're right, the 1922 film is the earliest reference I know of to vampires being outright destroyed by sunlight.Yep, the name and the fugly look were how they tried to skirt that. I wasn't trying to imply that the sunlight thing was for legal reasons as well. IIRC there are other supernatural critters that die that way which they probably used for inspiration. I forget which ones though.

[paladinofu.s.a]

I vote liches as the winner a of a duel between the two. I would rather face a vampire because they have to get into touch range to hurt u.:smallsmile:

[EmperorSarda]

I vote liches as the winner a of a duel between the two. I would rather face a vampire because they have to get into touch range to hurt u.:smallsmile:

Vampires can use its gaze attack on you from a distance.

[Mastikator]

The Vampire vs the Lich.

The Vampire has the abilities:
Blood Drain, not useful against liches
Children of the Night, a small distraction at best.
Dominate, also not useful against liches
Gaseous form, useful if things go sour for the vampire
Create Spawn, not useful
Energy Drain, also not useful
Alternate Form, might be useful to turn into a direwolf, probably not though
Damage Reduction, a lich will almost certainly be using spells so this is not useful unless the lich is a summoner
Fast Healing, nice but only in between battles really
Resistance to cold/electrity 10, useful
Spider climb, possibly useful
+6 str, +4 dex, +2 int, +2 wis, +4 cha
Alertness, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Improved Initiative, Lightning Reflexes
Not restricted to any class, a vampire may make use of the +6 to strength to destroy the lich by physical force rather than magic

The Lich has the abilities:
Fear Aura, not useful against a vampire
Paralysing Touch, also not useful
Damage Reduction 15/magic bludgeoning, might be useful if the vampire isn't a spell caster
Immunity to cold & electricity & polymorph and mind affecting abilities, very useful
+2 int/wis/cha
Infinite ressurection without penalty, useful in the long term, doesn't help the lich win the battle and only if the phylactery is safe

Overall it depends heavily on the characters and the situation, but it leans slightly in favor of vampire IMO with the fast healing and gaseous form, which may let the vampire tire the lich out of spells, a lich without spells is basically a wight.

Edit-
I am assuming this contest takes place in the OotSverse where classes are weirdly balanced, which is why it is relevant that vampires don't have to be spell casters but liches do.

[AstralFire]

Elemental immunities and resistances are essentially useless for discussing a duel; they're entirely too easy to get around. Vamp gives more crucial stat bonuses, and while Dominate may not be directly usable, it gives the vamp an edge on building a useful hench army. Free Improved Init can be very useful. The Vampire's single most notable weakness, sunlight, can be entirely ignored by carrying multiples of the same item and paying the penalty to have them be considered slotless; a dispel check would have to succeed against all of the items, and with a decent caster level and four of them, it gets very unlikely that this would occur.

[quasit]

I'm not sure if there would be much point, since he's already arguably the most powerful character in the series, but If a demilich is like a lich but more powerful, then maybe it's something for him to aspire to be.

I think he can, but requires unliving past a long lichdom unlife before he could (at least by traditional background standars, don't have any of the the 3.X flavour description avaliable).

Edit: Overall, provided that both opponents have the same CR/level, I think the Lich have quite a bit of advantage as he/her will have a higher character class level that the vampire and MUST be an spellcaster class, and they're both inmune to most of the other special attacks, save spells (lich) and clubbing him with a blunt (magical) object (vampires get +8 to strength and GL outpowering another caster of equal CR with magic if you have a +8 character adjustment level ). The character class and level matters a lot there. And equipment. And how prepared are to fight each other, for that matter.

[ZarDaranth]

In Vampire V. Lich, I'd have to go with the Lich. Liches are already spellcasters, and they get some pretty nifty bonuses that make them more adept at sitting back and tossing spells around. Vampire tends to be fairly melee-oriented, so if a caster were to become one, you could end up as a fairly weird combination of things.

And with Xykon V. Malack, the lich still gets the cake if it comes down to combat. Malack has spent a considerable amount of time in lawful life, and has even admitted that finding challenges worthy of his CR has been difficult. Xykon's been on a considerable campaign for some time now, and has been constantly crafting new and "exciting" magic items on a daily basis to pass the time. I mean, heck, Xykon has an item that negates a meteor swarm cast ON HIMSELF. If that's not battle planning on a stupidly precise level, then I don't know what is. Xykon is more battle ready, and I think we all can agree that Xykon is likely the most dangerous 1v1 combat foe currently in the OOTS-verse.

Now, should things start to get dipomatic, then Malack would win fairly easily. Malack would be able to get the point across that Xykon and his own aims are not that far apart, and the mass death and destruction a lich with a pet Snarl oculd ensue would be perfect for Nergal's thousand deaths a day. Redcloak would probably just nod and follow along, fearing any disruption of the plan, or worse yet, replacement of Redcloak by Malack (given Xykon's termination policies, not a very fun route). Heck, Xykon would probably find Vampire Durkon to be hilarious.

[JBiddles]

With regard to Xykon vs. MitD:


:xykon: Power equals power.

Give the MitD a magic item against Enchantment. Have him surprise Xykon. Xykon is crushed to powder with one hit - being a lich only goes so far against a being that ridiculously strong.

HOWEVER.

Xykon is smarter than he looks, subtler than he looks and has a phylactery. He would curbstomp MitD under normal circumstances, with the ability to Enchant and time to prepare some sort of strategy - but the MitD with some friends to protect him from Xykon's abilities would be a potent weapon.

[quasit]

Didn't read Start of darkness so I don't know whether...
...the geas spell casted on MiTD is actually working, or not and both Xykon and the monster think otherwise... did he showed any simptom pointing that the enchantment was, indeed , effective?

[Kish]

Swirly eyes, yes.

[F.Harr]

:durkon: Xykon! I must go and warn master-
:xykon: *casts control undead from a scroll* Now, what were you going to warn me about?


Fine. Go ahead. Be reasonable. See if I care.

That is, of course, a good point.

By the way, if Elan used his Freedom Song, would that break Durkon's thralldom?

And, if liches and vampires are templates, can you have empty templates fight each other?

Also, shouldn't vampires get immunity from electricity, too? It's not like they use their heats for pumping blood.

[rodneyAnonymous]

By the way, if Elan used his Freedom Song, would that break Durkon's thralldom?

No, the song of freedom is mechanically the same as break enchantment, which doesn't affect the vampire spawn / thrall ability.

[F.Harr]

No, the song of freedom is mechanically the same as break enchantment, which doesn't affect the vampire spawn / thrall ability.

Awww, that stinks.

[Chad30]

For dramatic purposes, I'm certain the only way to save Durkon is to kill Malack. Or kill him and resurrect his body.

[F.Harr]

How about a circumstance bonus for having his friends and teammates in the room?

And, yes, I really don't know a lot about D&D.

[rodneyAnonymous]

How about a circumstance bonus for having his friends and teammates in the room?

"Circumstance bonus" (afaik always) means a positive modifier to a roll due to favorable circumstances (or a penalty if unfavorable), like a rogue might get +1 to her lockpicking attempt at a lock she has picked before. Circumstance bonus to what?

[EmperorSarda]

How about a circumstance bonus for having his friends and teammates in the room?

And, yes, I really don't know a lot about D&D.

If you're referring to Durkon and his thrallism, it's not like a spell. There is no way to break Durkon from being a thrall short of killing Malack completely or Malack releasing him voluntarily.

[F.Harr]

Yeah, I didn't have a lot of hope for that one.

How about. . . "Release Dukon or we won't kill Nale!"

I don't have any hope for that, either. I'm just looking for a laugh.

[Chad30]

More like "Release Durkon or we'll save Nale!"

[137beth]

If you're referring to Durkon and his thrallism, it's not like a spell. There is no way to break Durkon from being a thrall short of killing Malack completely or Malack releasing him voluntarily.
Or developing a spell which does it:smallsigh:

[EmperorSarda]

Or developing a spell which does it:smallsigh:

Well yeah, if you want to go into experimental things. But might as well cast Wish or Miracle and hope it works.

[Rover]

I'd have to say lich.

The idea of a powerful spellcaster who's phylactery can enable him to regenerate is a lot more scary to me than a vamp.

[KillingAScarab]

Fine. Go ahead. Be reasonable. See if I care.

That is, of course, a good point.I meant for that to come out more humorous than harsh. I don't claim to have total knowledge of D&D, and don't expect that from others.

I actually wonder if it wouldn't work against Malak, too. The thing of it is, tactics work or don't work as The Giant wills them for the story. Which means if The Giant ever actually wanted Durkon to not be controlled by Xykon, something can prevent such a spell from working. It may not be internal to the spell, but something like Xykon not having a scroll at that time, or it gets disrupted.

If The Giant writes such an encounter between Xykon and Malak, Malak is new enough (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15179104&postcount=1464) to fall under the breaking the shackles of the D&D rules (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15180100&postcount=1493) so anything can happen, which is a fairly new thing. Actually, Malak seems to have been the poster-child of this with his staff, yet also working within the rules with things such as researching that protection from daylight spell.


And, if liches and vampires are templates, can you have empty templates fight each other?

Also, shouldn't vampires get immunity from electricity, too? It's not like they use their heats for pumping blood.Well, as far as D&D goes, vampires do get some resistance to both cold and electricity. What the degree of those resistances are attempting to model, I have no idea. But no, templates do not exist by themselves. They always need a "base creature" to be applied to. What those base creatures are, The Giant has shown some interesting choices. Malak is a monstrous humanoid vampire, which while uncommon wouldn't be illegal. I wouldn't be surprised if there isn't a frost giant werewolf (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lycanthrope.htm) before the story is over.

[Soras Teva Gee]

As far as their 3.5 basis go it boils down to a Lich being +4 and a Vamp being +8 and the Lich always being a spellcaster. So for the same ECL the Lich will have more of the most powerful features in the game: character levels.

If we assume equivalent character levels ignore the templates most of it boils out but the Lich is harder to make dead dead and doesn't have a boatload of weaknesses.

Of course the Vamp has one very notable advantage... it can create and more importantly control more of itself. Have vampire, create spawn, have spawn create more spawn, use legions of cannon fodder to deplete lich's spell's supply, kill lich, go pay a cleric to locate the lich's phylactery and a mage to get you there, smash phylactery. That's all making a LOT of assumptions though, but its something any vamp can do.

Really I tend to think being able to go out in daylight still trumps it. Thankfully that idea seems to be slowly dying out, its not just Twinklight, or at least weakening.

[F.Harr]

More like "Release Durkon or we'll save Nale!"

Ha! :D


I meant for that to come out more humorous than harsh. I don't claim to have total knowledge of D&D, and don't expect that from others.

What harsh? I'd thought it was a fine answer. My reply was meant as humorous and not snarky. I'm very sorry if it sounded differently.



If The Giant writes such an encounter between Xykon and Malak, Malak is new enough (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15179104&postcount=1464) to fall under the breaking the shackles of the D&D rules (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15180100&postcount=1493) so anything can happen, which is a fairly new thing. Actually, Malak seems to have been the poster-child of this with his staff, yet also working within the rules with things such as researching that protection from daylight spell.

That's fair.


Well, as far as D&D goes, vampires do get some resistance to both cold and electricity. What the degree of those resistances are attempting to model, I have no idea. But no, templates do not exist by themselves. They always need a "base creature" to be applied to. What those base creatures are, The Giant has shown some interesting choices. Malak is a monstrous humanoid vampire, which while uncommon wouldn't be illegal. I wouldn't be surprised if there isn't a frost giant werewolf (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lycanthrope.htm) before the story is over.

O.K., that's fair.



Really I tend to think being able to go out in daylight still trumps it. Thankfully that idea seems to be slowly dying out, its not just Twinklight, or at least weakening.

Well, on Supernatural, they're just sleepy during the day. If I were to write a vampire, they'd be a sort of ghost and thus the daylight simply prevents their manifestation. But I'm not a writer.

[Copperdragon]

As far as their 3.5 basis go it boils down to a Lich being +4 and a Vamp being +8 and the Lich always being a spellcaster. So for the same ECL the Lich will have more of the most powerful features in the game: character levels.

That's not a save bet to decide this contest. What about we assume equal levels and then add the templates?

[F.Harr]

That's not a save bet to decide this contest. What about we assume equal levels and then add the templates?

It would have to be the same class, too.

[Copperdragon]

It would have to be the same class, too.

Might make sense, the issue is that different classes might play out different with each template (and one of them even requires certain classes).
But doing a comparison with all possible class-combinations might be the thing to do if one wanted to actually do it.

[Reddish Mage]

As far as their 3.5 basis go it boils down to a Lich being +4 and a Vamp being +8 and the Lich always being a spellcaster. So for the same ECL the Lich will have more of the most powerful features in the game: character levels.

If we assume equivalent character levels ignore the templates most of it boils out but the Lich is harder to make dead dead and doesn't have a boatload of weaknesses.

Of course the Vamp has one very notable advantage... it can create and more importantly control more of itself. Have vampire, create spawn, have spawn create more spawn, use legions of cannon fodder to deplete lich's spell's supply, kill lich, go pay a cleric to locate the lich's phylactery and a mage to get you there, smash phylactery. That's all making a LOT of assumptions though, but its something any vamp can do.

Really I tend to think being able to go out in daylight still trumps it. Thankfully that idea seems to be slowly dying out, its not just Twinklight, or at least weakening.

So as I see it in a straight up fight, whether you have equivalent ECL or put the template on the same base spell-caster, the Lich has the definite advantage given the Vampires many weaknesses.

The Vampire, however, has tactical advantages in a greater conflict with the ability to create and command spawn. Plus the Vampire has higher Charisma. I'm not sure if that overweighs the superior ability of a Lich to avoid being killed, especially when its easy enough to cloak the Phylactery and hide it. The Lich can also assemble forces, just not as efficiently as the Vampire.