[M&M] Advice for a DM new to the system

[JeenLeen]

I've been looking for a fun, rules-lighter-than-D&D, rules-more-consistent-than-oWoD system for a while, and Mutants and Masterminds looks like it could be a good fit. As a plus, the SRD (http://www.d20herosrd.com/home) is online and thus I can play it for free.

I have two main questions. 1) How similiar is it to D&D (see some comments/thoughts of mine below)?
2) What powers/advantages are the most broken? I play with some min-maxers and want to be aware of loopholes I may not notice. Variable, for example, looks very abusable.

Thoughts on this and D&D
I've read through parts of the SRD. About how similar is it to D&D? In some ways it seems very similiars (skills, and advantages are kind of like feats), but the way abilities (corresponding to D&D attributes) and powers work seems very different than D&D attributes and class features/spells.

Battle seems similar in how 'rounds' function, but actual damaging is based off a 'rank' system. I never did get a clear picture of how you tell how many ranks of damage you do. How does that work?

It seems like something like)
1. Roll attack (d20 + whatever against their AC)
2. If succeed, the target gets to roll Toughness against the damage you dealt.
3. If they fail, you deal damage based on ranks of success
Is the above correct?

[Lost Demiurge]

I've been looking for a fun, rules-lighter-than-D&D, rules-more-consistent-than-oWoD system for a while, and Mutants and Masterminds looks like it could be a good fit. As a plus, the SRD (http://www.d20herosrd.com/home) is online and thus I can play it for free.

I have two main questions. 1) How similiar is it to D&D (see some comments/thoughts of mine below)?
2) What powers/advantages are the most broken? I play with some min-maxers and want to be aware of loopholes I may not notice. Variable, for example, looks very abusable.

Thoughts on this and D&D
I've read through parts of the SRD. About how similar is it to D&D? In some ways it seems very similiars (skills, and advantages are kind of like feats), but the way abilities (corresponding to D&D attributes) and powers work seems very different than D&D attributes and class features/spells.

Battle seems similar in how 'rounds' function, but actual damaging is based off a 'rank' system. I never did get a clear picture of how you tell how many ranks of damage you do. How does that work?

It seems like something like)
1. Roll attack (d20 + whatever against their AC)
2. If succeed, the target gets to roll Toughness against the damage you dealt.
3. If they fail, you deal damage based on ranks of success
Is the above correct?

Yeah, that's pretty much how it is. You never roll for damage, it's determined by how the defender makes or fails his/her save. Fail by a little, and the defender might be bruised or stunned, losing an action or inflicting a cumulative penalty to future damage saves. Fail by a lot, and they could be knocked out or worse. So it's possible to one shot people, but even if you don't KO someone in a single hit, you're likely wearing them down to the point that you CAN.

[tensai_oni]

There is no such thing as ranks of damage. An attack's rank affects the toughness roll DC, and damage dealt depends on how much the toughness roll fails against the DC.

What's most broken:
Breaking the action economy. Making attacks and other actions take more time (standard to full for example) is okay, and so is going from full to standard action, but below that you're starting to enter game-breaking territory. Stuff like attacks that are free actions is really easy to do - and really broken for reasons that should be obvious.
Too many Luck feats. Hero Points are probably the most precious commodity your player characters can have. Having too many of them (more than 3-4) renders the game pointless.
Abusing powers to grant yourself perfect something without a good counter (such as an invisibility to all senses that is always on, or immunity to damage). Technically it's fully legit and may even make an interesting NPC villain to deal with, but for a player that sounds cheesy.

Just out of the top of my head.

[Beleriphon]

I've been looking for a fun, rules-lighter-than-D&D, rules-more-consistent-than-oWoD system for a while, and Mutants and Masterminds looks like it could be a good fit. As a plus, the SRD (http://www.d20herosrd.com/home) is online and thus I can play it for free.

Sort of, some of the essential components of the game are lacking in that SRD option. Its also not an official SRD its fan made, although it is entirely accurate as far as I can tell.


I have two main questions. 1) How similiar is it to D&D (see some comments/thoughts of mine below)?
2) What powers/advantages are the most broken? I play with some min-maxers and want to be aware of loopholes I may not notice. Variable, for example, looks very abusable.

Its similar enough that in play you should get the basics of how a round of combat works, or how to rolls results for skills and such.

Variable is horribly abusable, most of the system actually is. It takes a bit of a keen eye and a sold social contract between the players to not abuse the heck out of the system. The problem is that to emulate the superhero genre the effects and powers have to be pretty open ended which can make them hard to deal with.

My one piece of advice is that if a flaw isn't really a flaw at LEAST half of the time a power gets used then its not worth the point discount.


Thoughts on this and D&D
I've read through parts of the SRD. About how similar is it to D&D? In some ways it seems very similiars (skills, and advantages are kind of like feats), but the way abilities (corresponding to D&D attributes) and powers work seems very different than D&D attributes and class features/spells.

Advantages are feats by another name. M&M Third Edition changed some names to move away from its D20 roots in Mutants and Masterminds (which was like D&D with superheroes pasted over top, it even had levels as a progression mechanic like D&D classes) and M&M Second Edition (which shares a great deal in common with M&M3E).

The abilities in the game a basically the same as the bonus to D&D abilities. A strength rank of 4 corresponds to D&D strength 18 or 19. Second Edition retained D&D D20 ability score system (you had a strength 18 and added +4 to strength related tasks), which Third Edition just adds your strength score of 4.

Powers are made up of multiple effects. Ironman's repulsor bursts, Superman's heat vision and Batman's batarangs are all Ranged Damage at different ranks with different modifiers. Joker's venom, Spider-Man's webshooters (when tying bad guys up) and a Sleep spell would all be built using the Affliction effect. This actually makes the game easier to use since all you need to know to build any ability is pick what it actually does rather than what it look like.


Battle seems similar in how 'rounds' function, but actual damaging is based off a 'rank' system. I never did get a clear picture of how you tell how many ranks of damage you do. How does that work?

It seems like something like)
1. Roll attack (d20 + whatever against their AC)
2. If succeed, the target gets to roll Toughness against the damage you dealt.
3. If they fail, you deal damage based on ranks of success
Is the above correct?

I'll break it down for you using the archtypes from that website. We'll use the Battlesuit and the Warrior. You might want to check the description under the Damage effect in the powers section for reference though.


Roll attack. Warrior punches Battlesuit. He rolls D20 + attack bonus. So D20 + 10, well say he rolls 8 for a total of 18. Its good enough to meet or exceed Battlesuit's parry resistance of 8 (you add the score to 10 to find the default target DC).
Battlesuit rolls Toughness Resistance. This is D20 + 12. The target in this case is Warrior's strength score + 15 or 25. Battlesuit rolls a 10 for a total of 22. He fails by single degree (didn't get to 25 or better). On his next toughness resistance he gets a -1 penalty, these accumulate as he fails toughness resistance checks.
Battlesuit flies away and shoots Warrior. Battlesuit hits warrior with a roll of 12 (20 total). Warrior's dodge defence is +10 (10+10=20).
Warrior rolls his toughness resistance check and gets a 5. He ends up with a total of 15 on the check. This is against Battlesuit's target DC of 27 (15 base + 12 Damage rank). Warrior failed his check by two degrees so he gets a -1 penalty and dazed until the end of his next rounds.


Combat goes back and forth like D&D accumulating penalties until somebody fails by four degrees on a check, or by three degrees twice.

Here's what the SRD has to say about Damage and Toughness.


Toughness vs. [Damage rank + 15]

Success : The damage has no effect.

Failure (one degree): The target has a –1 circumstance penalty to further resistance checks against damage.

Failure (two degrees): The target is dazed until the end of their next turn and has a –1 circumstance penalty to further checks against damage.

Failure (three degrees): The target is staggered and has a -1 circumstance penalty to further checks against damage. If the target is staggered again (three degrees of failure on a Damage resistance check), apply the fourth degree of effect. The staggered condition remains until the target recovers (see Recovery, following).

Failure (four degrees): The target is incapacitated .

The circumstance penalties to Toughness checks are cumulative, so a target who fails three resistance checks against Damage, each with one degree of failure, has a total –3 penalty.
If an incapacitated target fails a resistance check against Damage, the target’s condition shifts to dying. A dying target who fails a resistance check against Damage is dead.


All attacks work basically the same way, although you'd want to check the attack's specific effect entry to determine exactly what failure does in each case. Affliction for example apply different status changes depending on how bad the target fails, but those status changes are chosen by the player and can be combined as to fit a concept (tangling webs, sleep spells, poison gas and so on).

[Grod_The_Giant]

Sort of, some of the essential components of the game are lacking in that SRD option. Its also not an official SRD its fan made, although it is entirely accurate as far as I can tell.
As far as I can tell, it's everything, with a few trademarked names crossed out and replacements written in in crayon.


1. Apart from damage*, it plays very similarly. I've made sheets with powers written up as if they were D&D spells**, handed them to D&D players, and had them understand everything just fine. Character building is a completely different story, but play is similar, just faster.

*If you don't like the Toughness roll for damage-- and personally, I don't-- you can replace it with a damage roll against Toughness. This system (http://arsludi.lamemage.com/index.php/40/mm-damage-roll/)was worked out for 2e, but the math hasn't changed.

**Example: Orb of Ice-- You fire a bolt of pure cold, freezing a target in place. He must make a DC 20 Reflex save; if he fails, he is Hindered (-1 speed) and Vulnerable (Dodge and Parry halved). If he fails by 5 or more, he is Immobilized (can't move) and Defenseless (Dodge and Parry reduced to 0). At the end of each of his turns, he may make a DC 20 Damage or Sleight of Hand check to escape. If a target was affected once by this power and only Hindered and Vulnerable, hitting him a second time renders him Immobilized and Defenseless , even if he fails his save by less than 5. Power: Snare 10

2. I'm going to give you a piece of advice here that runs counter to what a lot of people will tell you: don't worry about balance. That's not to say that there aren't nasty things you can do with the system, although even the worst exploits are a far cry from what you can do in D&D, but... as long as everyone's hitting their power level caps for defenses and attacks, thing will be OK. The books are pretty good at warning when things might be troublesome, like Variable.

As a GM, your watchword should be "concept." Does this power fit your concept? Make sure your players have a cohesive idea for a character before they start slapping together powers, and you should be OK in the end.

All that being said, you do need to keep an eye out for common sense things.

Concealment that can be used at the same time as a main attack power, especially if that power is subtle.
Attack Teleport/Dimension Travel are one-hit KO's.
Improved Critical 4. (16-20 crits are not ideal)
Insubstantial 4 useable at the same time as attack powers (that affect corporal targets)
High-movement and Move-By attack can be used abusively. If the speedster uses it to run a mile, hit the brute, and retreat a mile away every turn? An issue. If he stays on the battlemap, it's probably fine.
Perception ranged attacks and super-senses/remote sensing. It's not automatically bad, but it can be.
Takedown 2. (I like minions; Takedown 2 can let one player sweep a room in one turn)
Healing can prolong fights.

And really, anything that looks, to you, like it'll be too good.

But the biggest adjustment is on you, and it has nothing to do with mechanics. Instead, you have to think about scale. M&M characters can have powers that would make a Solar do a double-take. When planning things, you need to remember that the characters live in a world made of cardboard (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ywo6F4xYTvA).

For example, in a recent game my paragon and an energy manipulator entered an alien spacecraft. The GM pretty clearly expected us to make our way through the hallways, fighting off ambushes and such. Instead, I turned to the energy manipulator and said "can you sense the main power plant?" She pointed. "Hey, GM, how strong do these walls look?" He proceeded to groan as I Kool-Aid Man'd my way through the entire ship.

And that's ok. Those moments are good. Those moments are when you feel like a superhero. Know that the paragon is going to punch through walls. Know that the psychic is going to read the baddie's mind. Know that the speedster is going to search the city at near-light speed. Know the genre, know the tropes, and let your players be awesome.

[Lost Demiurge]

But the biggest adjustment is on you, and it has nothing to do with mechanics. Instead, you have to think about scale. M&M characters can have powers that would make a Solar do a double-take. When planning things, you need to remember that the characters live in a world made of cardboard (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ywo6F4xYTvA).

For example, in a recent game my paragon and an energy manipulator entered an alien spacecraft. The GM pretty clearly expected us to make our way through the hallways, fighting off ambushes and such. Instead, I turned to the energy manipulator and said "can you sense the main power plant?" She pointed. "Hey, GM, how strong do these walls look?" He proceeded to groan as I Kool-Aid Man'd my way through the entire ship.

And that's ok. Those moments are good. Those moments are when you feel like a superhero. Know that the paragon is going to punch through walls. Know that the psychic is going to read the baddie's mind. Know that the speedster is going to search the city at near-light speed. Know the genre, know the tropes, and let your players be awesome.

This! So much this! This is full of win, and one of the hardest lessons to learn when playing a supers game. LET THE PC'S BE AWESOME. Sure, sometimes they might have to work for it, but if they come up with something creative or nifty? Let it work!

You'll be amazed at how much fun people have...

[Beleriphon]

But the biggest adjustment is on you, and it has nothing to do with mechanics. Instead, you have to think about scale. M&M characters can have powers that would make a Solar do a double-take. When planning things, you need to remember that the characters live in a world made of cardboard (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ywo6F4xYTvA).

This is fantastic advice here. As a complete aside I one built a solar (the D&D kind) worth 1081 points. It had all of the spell like abilities and everything. You can build anything that you want at all using the rules, it takes a bit of finessing sometimes but it can work.

[JeenLeen]

This is sounding more like a cool system I would like to play. I'll have to be strict with the powergamer in my group, but I can see it working if we all go for the same feel of the game. I appreciate the advice about accepting the world made of cardboard and letting supers do awesome stuff.



Roll attack. Warrior punches Battlesuit. He rolls D20 + attack bonus. So D20 + 10, well say he rolls 8 for a total of 18. Its good enough to meet or exceed Battlesuit's parry resistance of 8 (you add the score to 10 to find the default target DC).
Battlesuit rolls Toughness Resistance. This is D20 + 12. The target in this case is Warrior's strength score + 15 or 25. Battlesuit rolls a 10 for a total of 22. He fails by single degree (didn't get to 25 or better). On his next toughness resistance he gets a -1 penalty, these accumulate as he fails toughness resistance checks.
Battlesuit flies away and shoots Warrior. Battlesuit hits warrior with a roll of 12 (20 total). Warrior's dodge defence is +10 (10+10=20).
Warrior rolls his toughness resistance check and gets a 5. He ends up with a total of 15 on the check. This is against Battlesuit's target DC of 27 (15 base + 12 Damage rank). Warrior failed his check by two degrees so he gets a -1 penalty and dazed until the end of his next rounds.



How do you determine how many degrees the check is failed by? Is it something like "if you fail the roll by 5 or more, it's 2 degrees; if 10 or more, it's 3 degrees..."?

[Beleriphon]

This is sounding more like a cool system I would like to play. I'll have to be strict with the powergamer in my group, but I can see it working if we all go for the same feel of the game. I appreciate the advice about accepting the world made of cardboard and letting supers do awesome stuff.



How do you determine how many degrees the check is failed by? Is it something like "if you fail the roll by 5 or more, it's 2 degrees; if 10 or more, it's 3 degrees..."?

Yes, that is correct. Every five points above or below the target number is one degree. So if the DC is 20 and you roll 15 through 19 it is one degree, 8 through 14 is two degrees, 3 through 7 is three degrees and so on. The easiest way to figure it out is just keep subtracting five for each degree of failure.

Like such:

{table]CHECK RESULT EQUAL OR GREATER THAN...|DEGREE|EQUAL OR GREATER THAN ... (DC 20)
DC+15|Four (Success)|35
DC+10|Three (Success)|30
DC+5|Two (Success)|25
DC|One (Success)|20
DC–5|One (Failure)|15
DC–10|Two (Failure)|10
DC–15|Three (Failure)|5
DC–20|Four (Failure)|0[/table]

[Dogbert]

I must start by saying that MnM is my current sweetheart, so take my words with a grain of salt, I may not be fully objective.

Clearing your doubts:

1) God be blessed, while the system may have originated as a d20 offshoot, MnM is nothing like DnD due to it being oriented to genre emulation:

-MnM is not zero-to-hero. The game starts on one of four power tiers (roof rats-pulp, teen titans, avengers, JLA) and stays there. PCs get 1 PP per session to a max of 14 as otherwise they'd hit the next tier and you'll never see Barbara Gordon hitting Galactus in the jaw no matter how many years of comics. Also, characters are ALWAYS the big shots in their respective leagues (because, you know, SUPER).

-The GM works with the players, not against them. PCs have complications for the GM to use, but the book is explicit in saying that they're only there to hinder or otherwise poke fun at the characters, never to kill or destroy them. In turn, PCs get Hero Points that allow players to do many things, most notoriously shared narrative via the Edit-a-Scene tool.

-Death is NOT part of the game. All damage is non-lethal by default (because comic book heroes don't die, and when they "die" they just come back three months later).

-Combat is cinematic, not tactical. Situational modifiers max at plus or minus five, powers can be used infinitely (because Superman doesn't run out of "super points per day"), there are no Rocket-Launcher-Tag effects in game.

-Players start right away with the character they want. While there is character advancement, basically the character you are at the beginning is the character you'll be forever (because in comic books, status quo is eternal, Batman has been frozen in his year zero for almost a century now).

-The game only tracks those things worth tracking. No one cares about Tony Stark's bank account's details. If you want a new gadget just pay the PP cost (again, effects-oriented).

-Realism go home. The only rules that apply are those of the genre: 1-inch servos that let your power armor lift 50k tons, catching falling Lois Lane without breaking her neck, instant costume changes by tearing at your clothes, impossible acrobatic stunts made by badass normals. All those are routine.

2) I'll break this to you gently: The book is more easily broken than brittle glass. That's usually the price of systems with freedom in chargen, and even more so when talking about supers. Learn when to say yes and when to say no. Having said this, if you're the kind of player who worries about things like "munchkins" then it's very likely the superhero genre is not for you.

I hope that helps.

P.S: Your damage with any effect is the effect's level.
P.P.S: If you have a Batman's spoof at your table, you WILL have to suffer Variable. That's the essence of the "bat belt."

[Grod_The_Giant]

-MnM is not zero-to-hero. The game starts on one of four power tiers (roof rats-pulp, teen titans, avengers, JLA) and stays there. PCs get 1 PP per session to a max of 14 as otherwise they'd hit the next tier and you'll never see Barbara Gordon hitting Galactus in the jaw no matter how many years of comics.
PL advancement should be slow, but it can be there. Barbra Gordon never grows powerful enough to fight evil gods directly, but Wally West can graduate from the Titans to the JLA. Alternately, think of it as power creep.

And you can always keep awarding PP without boosting the PL.

My last campaign went PL 10 to PL 12, and I must have tossed out around 50pp to my players over the course. Their characters were more powerful, more varied

[Beleriphon]

-MnM is not zero-to-hero. The game starts on one of four power tiers (roof rats-pulp, teen titans, avengers, JLA) and stays there. PCs get 1 PP per session to a max of 14 as otherwise they'd hit the next tier and you'll never see Barbara Gordon hitting Galactus in the jaw no matter how many years of comics. Also, characters are ALWAYS the big shots in their respective leagues (because, you know, SUPER).

That's a bit untrue. The 15 points per PL is the suggested ratio to start the game. Its a default assumption, but it is not the only way to go. You could easily run a PL1 game with 1000pp to work with if that's your bag.

The GM sections suggest slowly increasing PL but nothing stops the GM from handing out hundreds of power points and never increasing the power level of the game.

[Dogbert]

I'm was reading the RAW (and correcting myself, I meant a max of 29, a tier is comprised of 2 PLs).

Can you disregard the RAW if that's your bag? Sure, and you can ignore the book altogether and run it as a zero-to-hero if you want, but then you're running generic mainstream anime rather than superhero comics, point at which you might as well just play d20 Vigilance or some other faux superhero game rather than a genre emulation one.

Opting to ignore the RAW doesn't make it "untrue."

[Beleriphon]

I'm was reading the RAW (and correcting myself, I meant a max of 29, a tier is comprised of 2 PLs).

Can you disregard the RAW if that's your bag? Sure, and you can ignore the book altogether and run it as a zero-to-hero if you want, but then you're running generic mainstream anime rather than superhero comics, point at which you might as well just play d20 Vigilance or some other faux superhero game rather than a genre emulation one.

Opting to ignore the RAW doesn't make it "untrue."

The problem is that there is no hard and fast rules for increasing power level. None. Getting fifteen power points doesn't give you +1 power level. The power level is assigned by the GM, as are the number of points you get to start with. To quote the rules on starting power points:


STARTING POWER POINTS
The game’s power level provides a guideline for how many
power points you get initially to design your character, as
shown on the Starting Power Points table. The Gamemaster
can vary the starting power points as desired to
suit the series.

Increasing power level is handled the same way. It's a suggestion, that's all the game rules present. I'll refer you to page 211 of the Heroes Handbook rather than quote the entire page, but the gist of it is that a good point to increase the power level of the campaign is after every fifteen power points given as rewards, but its not the be all end all of options. You could do that at first and move to twenty or thirty power points as the power level break point, or never increase the power level at all. All of which is suggested by the book.

[The Rose Dragon]

I usually give 20 power points per power level, and generally start at PL 8, because I like well-rounded characters over super-powerful ones, but I have done PL-less, PP-less games before. They work wonderful if you know the players, not so much if they are a PUG for a PbP game.

But yeah, there hasn't been a strict, RAW correlation between PP and PL since First Edition (where you were supposed to increase your PL by 1 for every 15 PPs you had). In fact, the PL the GM gives is only for the campaign, not the characters. A character can use far more than 150 power points, and still be under PL for the campaign, as PL is only determined by your capped traits.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I'm was reading the RAW (and correcting myself, I meant a max of 29, a tier is comprised of 2 PLs).

Can you disregard the RAW if that's your bag? Sure, and you can ignore the book altogether and run it as a zero-to-hero if you want, but then you're running generic mainstream anime rather than superhero comics, point at which you might as well just play d20 Vigilance or some other faux superhero game rather than a genre emulation one.

Opting to ignore the RAW doesn't make it "untrue."
a) The things about "tiers" are suggestions. There is not a single rule about them having any effect on characters.
b) Page 204 explicitly tells you that "If a rule doesn’t suit your gaming group, then by all means, change it!"
c) Page 217 says "As the series progresses, you may want to slow the rate
of increasing power level, stretching it out to even 20, 30, or more earned power points." So... yes, it is completely within both RAW to offer more points before increasing power level.
d) There is not a single rule I've ever come across which states that heroes stop advancing at some point. Please tell me where you see one.

[tensai_oni]

Can you disregard the RAW if that's your bag? Sure, and you can ignore the book altogether and run it as a zero-to-hero if you want, but then you're running generic mainstream anime rather than superhero comics, point at which you might as well just play d20 Vigilance or some other faux superhero game rather than a genre emulation one.


Wait wait wait.

Did you just say that Mutants and Masterminds should be used only to run superhero games?

Because that's total bull. This system was intended for superhero games, but there is a reason why it's widely considered to be good for (almost) everything.

Also if a game master wants to hand out 5 or even 15 power points per session? I don't see a problem. There is nothing inherent in the rules about having slow progress, it's just the default you can easily modify to suit your needs.

[Amechra]

Hell, Grod_The_Giant wrote a pretty nifty conversion of D&D 3.5 to M&M 3e.

It works out stupendously.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Wait wait wait.

Did you just say that Mutants and Masterminds should be used only to run superhero games?

Because that's total bull. This system was intended for superhero games, but there is a reason why it's widely considered to be good for (almost) everything.
The system has a power bias, sure, but the crunch is entirely separable from the superhero trappings. It's a perfectly serviceable cinematic, generic, point-buy system.


Hell, Grod_The_Giant wrote a pretty nifty conversion of D&D 3.5 to M&M 3e.

It works out stupendously.
:smallredface:

[tensai_oni]

The system has a power bias, sure, but the crunch is entirely separable from the superhero trappings. It's a perfectly serviceable cinematic, generic, point-buy system.

Yes, I know. This is why I was puzzled by Dogbert's statement.

[The Rose Dragon]

We were probably all puzzled by Dogbert's statement. There are a few things M&M can't handle well, but it is not exclusively about superheroes. In fact, I can count the number of superhero games I've run with M&M on one hand. Not to mention that 2nd Edition has two official books like Warriors & Warlocks and Mecha & Manga, which are all about using it for something other than superheroes.

((Incidentally, the thread title bugs me, since M&M has GMs, not DMs.))

[Hyfigh]

There isn't a ton to worry about with regard to power-gaming. Broken powers are fairly easy to find. Either ban them or determine how they should work. I suggest familiarizing yourself intimately with the powers prior to letting your players go hog-wild. Check out Atomic Think Tank, too. They have a thread in their forums where people have created mainstream superheroes within the rules. It'll give you an idea of what your characters should look like; round-abouts anyway.

I'm not sure why there is a hang up on power levels. It's a guideline. Play the game how you'd like. The game is open to any genre if you understand the powers well enough. Obvious examples have been provided.

[Nerd-o-rama]

The strength of M&M is in its versatility. You can make practically anything you want to out of the options presented. There are two important things to remember:

1) Build to concept, not to powergame. Any jerk (including the GM) can put together an invincible character if they sink their power points the right way, but no one likes an unbeatable superhero - or anything else, for that matter. Encourage your players thusly and try to make sure your villains have abilities appropriate to their character as well.
2) I have no effing idea what Dogbert is talking about with tiers and advancement rules (there really aren't any hard advancement rules), and I don't think anyone else does either.

[JoeMac307]

I'm gearing up to start GMing a DC Adventures (which is M&M 3e in a DC Comics setting) soon... a little burnt out on my D&D campaign.

The basic premise is that Batman and most of the Bat-Family have gone offworld for an extended period of time to chase after Talia Al Ghul, who has utilized her impressive resources as the head of Leviathan to head to the stars for nefarious reasons that are not yet clear.

Batman is unwilling to let her go unchecked, but can't leave Gotham City unprotected, either. He leaves behind Nightwing, who once again takes on the mantle of the bat, and charges him with putting together a new team of heroes that are young and trainable to help him defend Gotham until Bruce can return.

Enter my PCs. They will be members of this new team of rotating heroes who are given assignments by Nightwing-as-Batman based on their availability / expertise. I want to make the team rotating, because I have a pool of nine players with widely varying schedules and want to be able to play with whoever is available when I have an opening in my own schedule. Ideally, the adventures I design with have an overarching plotline that links them together (perhaps in less obvious ways that become clear as time goes on) but are short enough to be played through in one session.

My players are pretty good at coming up with character concepts, and they are familiar with D&D and d20 in general, but they don't have a lot of time to read through all the rules for M&M. So what I'm doing is asking them to tell me about their hero's background and abilities, and then I'm using a PL 10 / 150 point buy to rough draft their heroes for them, and then we'll sit down and refine it until they are happy.

My concern is that I've never run a M&M adventure before, and haven't run a super hero RPG in nearly 25 years back when I used to play the old Marvel FASERIP and DC Mayfair games. I have no idea what would make a good challenge for my players. Any advice? Would it be good to throw a bunch of minions at them, then cap off the first adventure with a PL 10 villain, like maybe Two-Face? Should I use a team of PL 10 villains, like maybe Riddler and Scarecrow, or should I bump up the villain to PL 11, like Killer Croc or Poison Ivy, or something like that maybe ?

I'm expecting to have 4 to 6 PL 10 heroes playing with a 150 point buy without any abusive power combinations since I'll be rough drafting the heroes for my players based on their concepts.

Any insights?

[Grod_The_Giant]

Have an encounter calculator (http://www.atomicthinktank.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=24919&p=604377#p604377). I use it pretty consistently, and it tends to work very well. Just remember that boss enemies need minions or an extra turn each round to avoid being action economy'd to death.

For a first adventure, I'd recommend starting with a bunch of minions-- learn the rules while there's less of a threat, and start off feeling empowered. Other than that, whatever makes sense for the adventure.


Incidentally, your concept sounds really cool, but PL 10 seems a little high for Gotham.

[tensai_oni]

I second the idea of PL 10 being too high for Gotham. Street-level superheroes are PL 8 or even 6. You may want to still run at PL 10 for the sake of simplicity (because rulebook assumes you start at PL 10 by default), but really it'd work better with PL 8 and 120 Power Points per character.

I do NOT second the idea of having only minions on the first session. Minions go down fast. REALLY fast.

In terms of danger, a team of X player characters at power level Y can easily take on a single villain of power level X+Y. I think groups of weaker villains work better than a single super-buff one, because action economy skews the encounter in party's favor, but on the other hand if you keep the enemy PL too high the party won't be able to hurt 'em at all.

[JoeMac307]

Thank you guys for the feedback and advice. Gonna check out that encounter calculator.

Even though I'm setting it in Gotham, I went with PL 10 cause I wanted PCs on the scale of Nightwing, Black Canary and Green Arrow, which are all PL 10s in DC Adventures Heroes and Villains handbooks (and have a lot more than 150 point builds). But if it turns out my PCs are rolling over the villains in my adventures, I can bring back Bruce Wayne, and transition them out of Gotham as a new international underground task force reporting up to Batman, ala the Outsiders.

I think I am going to start the campaign with a quick adventure involving a lot of minions at first (thinking sewer dwelling bio-enhanced zombies), then the mini-boss pops out (thinking Killer Croc or Clayface... PL 11), and just as the heroes think they have him handled, I will drop in a pair of bosses, maybe Poison Ivy (PL 11) and Mr. Freeze (PL 10) with plenty of escape routes when things go south.

I don't care if the PCs run over everyone this first adventure. I want them to have fun, kick ass, and the most of all learn the system, and then start to wonder... Why is Poison Ivy and Mr. freeze working together to make bio-enhanced zombies beneath the streets of Gotham? Why was Killer Croc / Clayface helping them? Who is powerful / resourceful enough to get these guys to work together, and what could their endgame possibly be?

[Nerd-o-rama]

Just be prepared for any smartasses who bring up Batman and Robin.

[JoeMac307]

Just be prepared for any smartasses who bring up Batman and Robin.

Yeah, the intro adventure isn't a fully developed idea yet. My thoughts so far:


Homeless people are going missing at an alarming rate
Heroes are sent to look into disappearances
Investigation leads them to sewers
Deep underground they come upon a horde of brainwashed, bio-enhanced minions who attack en masse
After cleaving their way through the nearly mindless horde, they continue on the path until they come across a large, secured underground HQ
The HQ is guarded by Killer Croc and/or Clayface to keep out intruders
After getting past Croc / Clayface and HQ security, they enter a large underground lab
Tons more minions in the lab, as well as Mr. Freeze working on cryo-based augmentations to captured homeless people
In middle of the battle, out of nowhere, barely noticed vines along the ceiling start to tangle the PCs... enter Poison Ivy
It turns out that Croc / Clayface and Mr. Freeze are working for (a lot) of money, but Poison Ivy has different motivation
Poison Ivy, which the PCs may not find out, was told by her employer that the homeless people would be turned into an army to overthrow the polluting patriarchial governments of the world. She agreed to use her knowledge of botany and biology and her venomous nature to induce the homeless with a custom-tailored serum of mind-altering neurotoxins.


The mysterious employer behind all of this is a previously unmentioned daughter of Vandal Savage. Always jealous of the attention that her father gave his favored daughter, Scandal Savage, this younger daughter is out to prove herself worthy of her father's love by delivering him an unstoppable, and expendable, army. Vandal is aware of this daughters actions and is stringing her along to see if she can deliver, but also because his vast network of spies has told him that not only is Talia Al Ghul apparently offworld, but so is the real Batman. With both Ra's and Talia momentarily out of the picture, now may be the perfect time for Vandal to make a play for world domination, but first he wants to test the resolve and abilities of the defenders of Gotham that Batman left behind... if found lacking, Gotham could make the perfect beachhead for his long-ranged plan of world conquest.

Obviously I got to flesh this out a bit more, but I think there are a few good hooks, plus it is relatively straight forward and should allow both me and my players to familiarize ourselves with the system.

[JeenLeen]

Since this thread is still active, I'll post a newbie rules question here.

For Fortitude and Will, such as to resist Afflictions: to resist the effect, do you roll d20 and add just Fortitude/Will, or do you also add your Stamina/Awareness?

If the latter, is the "Fortitude & Will cannot be greater than 2x PL" just Fortitude and Will, or each with the ability bonus?


Edit: wanted to note I like the Batman plot. We're about to start a game (with someone else DMing) where some people beyond Batman's league showed up and are taking control of Gotham. The Justice League doesn't interfere because Batman says it's his city and they respect him too much to interfere, but we PCs (PL 12) decide to to interfere anyway. Batman will be a rival force while we topple the bad guys. Should be fun.

[The Rose Dragon]

Fortitude and Will stats start from a base of Stamina and Awareness, respectively, and can be increased to a maximum total of PL x 2. This means that someone with Stamina 12 cannot have Awareness higher than 8, barring a custom Flaw, at PL 10.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Your Fortitude and Will defenses are the sum of the points directly invested in the power and the relevant ability (Stamina and Awareness, respectively). It's that total sum that matters for trade-off.