Sorceror vs Wizard

[themourningstar]

Im sure there is already a thread (more like.a couple dozen) about this, but I cant seem to find a "search" bar for the forum, sooooo.... Im wanting a detailed analysis comparing.the two classes, both for dmg potential and for pure usefulness. If someone could post a link sending me to the older posts, it would be awesome. Or just give me your opinion ;) Thanks!

[ahenobarbi]

Kindof depends what are you doing. Wizards are generally considered more powerful because they can access to more spells (so they can apply "perfect" spell for each situation).

When it comes to damage dealing Sorcerers a bit more potential... but it doesn't really matter. Firstly because it's not that hard to do thousands of points of HP damage. Secondly because when you wield reality-altering power there are better things to do than dealing damage.

[Flickerdart]

Wizards are more powerful in practically every metric:
Sorcerers have terrible spells known. A sorcerer that wants to use Contingency or Planar Binding or any spell you don't use every day needs to use a precious spell known on it, and has nothing else he can do with those slots for a whole level. A wizard that wants to use Contingency pays a small fee to scribe it, and doesn't need to prepare it until he needs to refresh it.

Sorcerers have a slower spell progression. While it may look like they can cast more spells, when you factor in bonus spells from high abilities, Focused Specialist bonuses, the spells wizards get from access to the next spell level, and so forth, sorcerers aren't actually that far ahead.

Sorcerers need to take a feat just to have normal metamagic. Without it, they need to use a full-round action to use meta, and can't use Quicken. Wizards not only don't have to take that feat, but have bonus feats they can use to pick up more metamagic.

CHA based casting means sorcerers have rubbish skill points.

Being able to spontaneously cast spells isn't a huge deal, since wizards can become spontaneous casters too with things like Alacritous Cogitation, Uncanny Forethought, Spontaneous Divination, Magelord, etc - only a lot of the time they don't need to, because most spells are versatile enough on their own that they can apply to many situations.

[themourningstar]

I figured that would be the outcome. On focused casting, are.there any schools that are the "best" to give up iyo?

[Carth]

Enchantment and necromancy are my go to banned schools. However, generalists are still plenty powerful.

[ahenobarbi]

None :smallwink:

Be gray elf generalist with Domain Wizard (Arcana Unearthed) and Elven Generalist (Races of the Wild) variants. No schools given up, the same number of highest-level spells (before INT bonus) as focused specialist.

If you do want to be a focused specialist... typically people ban Evocation (because Shadow Evocation & family), Enchantment (because lots of enemies are immune) and Necromancy (if there is no one else who can Dispel Magic in group) or Abjuration (if there is).

[Talya]

Sorcerers need to take a feat just to have normal metamagic. Without it, they need to use a full-round action to use meta, and can't use Quicken. Wizards not only don't have to take that feat, but have bonus feats they can use to pick up more metamagic.


i'd like to point out that despite this limitation, the only advantage Sorcerers have is with metamagic.

Metamagic feats are far, far superior on a sorcerer to a wizard. The ability to apply them as you need them, rather than waste spell slots guessing at preparing them is golden.

This doesn't make up for the other differences, but a metamagic-focused sorcerer is incredible.

Also, while early on they lose a feat out of the deal, sorcerers have even less reason to stay in their class than wizards. Once you're into incantatrix or whatever you're taking, the lack of class features becomes irrelevant. I hesitate to say this is a "good" thing; it would feel like Apple's marketing department describing the first iPod Shuffle's lack of screen as a feature. (Yes, they did that.)

[Carth]

Nooooo! Familiar advancement! It's awesome having a familiar smarter than the average commoner? :smallbiggrin:

[Talya]

Nooooo! Familiar advancement! It's awesome having a familiar smarter than the average commoner? :smallbiggrin:

Improved Familiar makes most of the later familiar abilities pointless anyway.

[ahenobarbi]

Nooooo! Familiar advancement! It's awesome having a familiar smarter than the average commoner? :smallbiggrin:

Who in their right mind takes that lousy ACF that trades 3+INT metamagic without increasing casting time for a familiar :smallwink:

[Agincourt]

Wizards have a bunch of built in advantages, but in spite of that I still prefer sorcerers. Playing a sorcerer can take more preparation out-of-game (which I enjoy but others may not) because you cannot afford to take a bad spell. Once the game session starts, however, I am ready to play. I know the spells on my sorcerer spell list inside-and-out and there is no need to consult my character sheet to see whether I memorized a spell that would be perfect for this situation.

A wizard, on the other hand, will take more preparation within the game. Each morning, the player needs to decide which spells to take. You need to set aside a few minutes of real time so that you can decide your daily allotment of spells. (It's possible for the wizard player to just take the same spells each day, but then you're neglecting the biggest advantage the wizard has.) For me, then, spontaneous casting is just more fun because when the group is together, I am always ready to play.

One other thing I have not seen mentioned yet is that the more books you have a available to you, the more narrow the theoretical gap between a sorcerer and wizard becomes. PHBII lets you trade your familiar for the ability to cast metamagic spells at their normal casting time. Races of the Dragon opens up several sorcerer only spells, including Wings of Cover and Wings of Flurry. Complete Mage opens up the Arcane Fusion spells to help with the action economy. And Dragon Magic has the best spell of all for Sorcerers: Arcane Spellsurge, which makes it an advantage for metamagic casting time to sometimes take a full round.

[Flickerdart]

Metamagic feats are far, far superior on a sorcerer to a wizard. The ability to apply them as you need them, rather than waste spell slots guessing at preparing them is golden.

While technically true, most of the time the metas you have are metas you know you'll want to use all the time - if you have fireball and Maximize Spell, chances are that you would have prepared Maximized fireball anyway. Versatility in meta application is handy with things like Still and Silent, but those aren't really the metamagics that break the game wide open.

[Talya]

Who in their right mind takes that lousy ACF that trades 3+INT metamagic without increasing casting time for a familiar :smallwink:

Especially when they can then obtain a familiar with a feat. ;)

[Agincourt]

While technically true, most of the time the metas you have are metas you know you'll want to use all the time - if you have fireball and Maximize Spell, chances are that you would have prepared Maximized fireball anyway. Versatility in meta application is handy with things like Still and Silent, but those aren't really the metamagics that break the game wide open.

Heighten Spell is one you probably wouldn't prepare ahead of time. True, a Wizard can often find a higher level spell equivalent to cast, giving them a higher save DC, but there are exceptions. Also, if a Wizard memorizes, say, Hold Monster, they may end up using it early in the day on someone who a Hold Person would have been just fine.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Sorcerers do have a few things going for them that allow certain niches:

Sorcerer only spells: Wings of Flurry, Wings of Cover, Arcane Fusion (Greater), [making best use of] Arcane Spellsurge

Spamming reliable tricks: For instance, Mailman with Arcane Fusion'd Orbs. The wizard really can't do the "spamming" thing as well.

Metamagic versatility: With stuff like Energy Substitution, Searing Spell, Silent Spell, Still Spell, Enlarge Spell, Empower Spell, etc. this can be very useful. Also, like before, it's easier to spam metamagic'd stuff.

Also, the Wizard's 10th, 15th, and 20th level bonus feats don't count, since you're in a PrC at that point either way.

That said the Wizard is clearly superior. See: Spell slots at odd levels.

[Talya]

Heighten Spell is one you probably wouldn't prepare ahead of time. True, a Wizard can often find a higher level spell equivalent to cast, giving them a higher save DC, but there are exceptions. Also, if a Wizard memorizes, say, Hold Monster, they may end up using it early in the day on someone who a Hold Person would have been just fine.

Heighten Spell is a must-have for most sorcerers, I think.

You want a single save-or-die/lose/suck targeting each save, right? So you've got some level 3 save-or-suck already targeting Will. But you've got level 7 spells, and level 3 spells are getting saved against just a little too often for you. You could blow another precious known spell on a level 7 spell to target will saves, or you can heighten your level 3 spell.

Heighten spell lets your entire list of lower level spells known remain relevant through level 20.

[Raven777]

On the other hand, the Pathfinder Sorcerer gives the Pathfinder Wizard a run for his money.

[Raineh Daze]

What about Versatile Spellcaster? Extra higher level slots if they're needed. :smallbiggrin:

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

For a Sorcerer:
Take Ancestral Relic (BoED) at 3rd level, and make it a custom Runestaff (MIC p224). You get to decide every spell that's on it and how often each can be used. Every time you upgrade/modify it you can completely replace its current properties with new ones if equal value. The value of its magical properties has a level-based limit, but there is no limit to the value you can sacrifice into it for later use.

When your party would sell junk loot for half price, buy it from the party pool for that price. You'll still get a fair share of that back when the cash is split, so for example in a party of four characters, 1,000 gp worth of junk loot will cost you 500 gp, and you'll get 125 gp of that back, for a net cost of 375 gp. You can sacrifice the full value of all that junk loot into your Ancestral Relic to upgrade it, so it's upgraded for considerably less than half price.

Note that the amount of time it takes to meditate to upgrade it is based on how much its value increases by, so if you swap out Runestaff spells for different spells of identical value, it takes zero time to do it. This gives a Sorcerer access to every spell on the class list without waiting to prepare spells again.

[Snowbluff]

What about Versatile Spellcaster? Extra higher level slots if they're needed. :smallbiggrin:

Well, that's kind of a moot point, since Wizards can easily use it too.

[Raineh Daze]

Well, that's kind of a moot point, since Wizards can easily use it too.

That takes more work. :smalltongue:

[Snowbluff]

That takes more work. :smalltongue:

Not really. Unless you're going Swftblade, the feat slot for Spontaneous Divination is an excellent trade. :smallwink:

[Soras Teva Gee]

It comes down to this question: How many different spells a day do I really use?

Sure a Wizard can know every spell you can find, that won't help them when they don't have it prepared today, or when they only prepared it once and happen to need it twice.

A Sorc has few options to choose from, but can't screw themselves out of an option on a daily basis. Of course they can't change their approach every day either so have to choose much more carefully when they level up.

[Kelb_Panthera]

It comes down to this question: How many different spells a day do I really use?

Sure a Wizard can know every spell you can find, that won't help them when they don't have it prepared today, or when they only prepared it once and happen to need it twice.

A Sorc has few options to choose from, but can't screw themselves out of an option on a daily basis. Of course they can't change their approach every day either so have to choose much more carefully when they level up.

Unfortunately for the sorcerer, this only matters in combat. In any utility situation a smart wizard will have left slots open at the beginning of the day so that he only needs 15 minutes to prepare just the right utility spell.

Honestly though, while a wizard -can- be made into a spontaneous caster, I honestly don't see any reason to jump through those hoops when a sorcerer casts spontaneously by default.

I generally build a wizard when I'm worried about strategic flexibility and a sorcerer when I'm worried about tactical flexibility.

DM pacing is also a major consideration. If there's little to no down-time between adventures then scribing new spells into a wizard's spell-book will be difficult. A sorcerer is always ready to go. The limited spells known "issue" is a red herring anyway. They get plenty of known spells and you can always pick up a scroll or runestaff if you're really concerned by corner cases.

[Emperor Tippy]

It comes down to this question: How many different spells a day do I really use?

Sure a Wizard can know every spell you can find, that won't help them when they don't have it prepared today, or when they only prepared it once and happen to need it twice.

A Sorc has few options to choose from, but can't screw themselves out of an option on a daily basis. Of course they can't change their approach every day either so have to choose much more carefully when they level up.

And the opposite "How many spells per day do I really cast?"

An average adventuring day will see me cast less than 20 or so spells most of the time/unless I feel like being showy.

And practically unlimited 4th level and lower slots is easy and cheap (auto reset trap of Mage's Lucubration stored in your portable hole) if you really feel like worrying about spells.

Add in wands and the twenty to thirty scrolls you should have on you and you are just fine.

I honestly can't remember the last time I blew through all my spells slots (except with Divination's using Spontaneous Divination at the end of the day).

[Ace Nex]

Personally I favor wizards. Sorcs get some cool spells, but at higher levels I like the wizards larger potential spell list. It's just personal preference, I know more than a few people who favor sorcerers.

[Mithril Leaf]

And practically unlimited 4th level and lower slots is easy and cheap (auto reset trap of Mage's Lucubration stored in your portable hole) if you really feel like worrying about spells.

5th level slots. 6th if you take Sanctum Spell to reduce the level of everything you cast with it by one.

[angry_bear]

Druid

The two classes are both fun. I haven't played a sorcerer in a few years, but had a great time doing it when I did. It lacks the diversity of a wizard, but I'm not sure if there's anything better for a blaster build than a sorcerer...

As far as a duel goes, it should come down to build, and spells known. But, in my experience, if one side isn't careful; it can honestly come down to whichever one casts the save or die spell the fastest.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

And practically unlimited 4th level and lower slots is easy and cheap (auto reset trap of Mage's Lucubration stored in your portable hole) if you really feel like worrying about spells.

Spend 15 gp on a blank spellbook and spelltrap it per CA p141 and you can put it in a backpack instead of a portable hole.

[Humble Master]

Wizard outclasses Sorcerer simply because the Wizard can vary their spells and thus can use very specific spells. The Wizard might not get as many but it comes down to the fact that a Wizard, because he can prepare his spells perfectly, can get more done in fewer spells thus rendering the additional spells of the Sorcerer weaker than the variety of the Wizard.

[Arcanist]

And practically unlimited 4th level and lower slots is easy and cheap (auto reset trap of Mage's Lucubration stored in your portable hole) if you really feel like worrying about spells.

Do magic traps have listed dimensions anywhere? If not, then you could just apply the spell trap to a non-magical amulet and wear it all the time so it triggers every round.

[Soras Teva Gee]

And the opposite "How many spells per day do I really cast?"

An average adventuring day will see me cast less than 20 or so spells most of the time/unless I feel like being showy.

And practically unlimited 4th level and lower slots is easy and cheap (auto reset trap of Mage's Lucubration stored in your portable hole) if you really feel like worrying about spells.

Add in wands and the twenty to thirty scrolls you should have on you and you are just fine.

I honestly can't remember the last time I blew through all my spells slots (except with Divination's using Spontaneous Divination at the end of the day).

First one's fair enough it will depend on what you end up with. I tend to think most people are really just going to stick with a few reliable spells "most" of the time, which either can cover.

And if the person running the game actually lets you turn a trap into a free recharge device then they can just suck up whatever happens. Cheese too strong for my tastes there so I don't need to worry about it since it won't ever reflect my own experience.

Wands and scrolls benefit both classes. Yeah making is better then buying if you both have the time and want the bother.

Its not like either class played decently will fail to be adequate, so its more about how you want to play.

Don't think anyone's going to dispute Wizards can run farther off the deep end.

[Harrow]

Wizards have one big advantage over Sorcerers. They can change what spells they can cast on a day-by-day basis. But the big change in power, in my experience, isn't switching a spell or two around when you go from a desert setting to a sailing setting. They happen when you make mistakes in spell selection.

Say someone in your group gets a new book. Everyone is excited about it. The local casters all go through the new spells. Find something they like? Well, the Wizard buys a scroll of it in the next town and starts using it right away. It would be better on the Sorcerer's build, but he would need a knowstone, runestaff, or to level up, all of which have a much higher resource cost than the Wizard buying a scroll. The Wizard immediately became more powerful, the Sorcerer gets to wait and dream.

But it goes further. Everyone levels up. The Sorcerer finally gets that spell the Wizard has been using for weeks. The Wizard gladly stops preparing it, not because he planned this out with the Sorcerer, but because he can cast the Greater or Mass version of it this level and feels the lower level version is now redundant. He soon comes to regret this decision as he finds that the Greater version isn't enough of an advantage over the Lesser one to be worth the higher slot. So he doesn't prepare it. Ever again. He was weaker for one encounter. Now he's replaced it with something generally more useful.

That's the strength of the Wizard. Not changing how you react to a specific situation on a certain day, but the ability to change how you react to every situation, every day.

You could roll to randomly determine what spells you learn next, and just by a process not too different from natural selection you could end up with a better list of spells than a Sorcerer, who doesn't get any room for error. And of course, getting higher level spells a level early also helps.