Chaos shuffling question

[questionmark693]

What is it? Can somebody point me towards it, or explain it to me please?

[Rhynn]

This thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=119456) explains it, but:

Fiendish Codex I: Hordes of the Abyss has the spells embrace the dark chaos and shun the dark chaos. The first lets you trade a feat for a vile feat. The other lets you trade a vile feat for a feat.

You start out as an elf, and trade your racial martial weapon proficiency feats for other feats.

Edit: To be clear, it's pretty much theoretical optimization, especially if combined with Elder Evil Devotion for infinite feat loops.

[Sir_Thaddeus]

I don't have my books in front of me right now, but I believe that "Chaos shuffling" is the (ab)use of two spells from Fiendish Codex I: Hordes of the Abyss. These spells are Embrace the Dark Chaos, which replaces any feat the target has with a vile feat, and Reject the Dark Chaos, which replaces any vile feat the target has with a non-vile feat. If I recall correctly, both spells have XP components, so they're not completely spammable, but they can still be used.
The combo is, from what I've heard, commonly used to replace useless bonus feats (Track, anyone?) with something the character would want to have. With sources that give a lot of bonus feats that aren't really useful, such as Vow of Poverty's generous gift of Exalted feats, or the Elf race's poorly worded racial weapon proficiencies, this can be a worthwhile use of XP.
If your DM allows it, that is. It's a fine example of what I think many people might consider cheese, although RAW allows it.

Edit: Okay, someone beat me to it. Dang swordsages!

[Piggy Knowles]

This thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=119456) explains it, but:

Fiendish Codex I: Hordes of the Abyss has the spells embrace the dark chaos and shun the dark chaos. The first lets you trade a feat for a vile feat. The other lets you trade a vile feat for a feat.

You start out as an elf, and trade your racial martial weapon proficiency feats for other feats.

Minor nitpick: abyssal heritor feat, not a vile feat.

Basically, you cast embrace the dark chaos and turn all of your feats into abyssal heritor feats. Then you cast shun the dark chaos, and turn them back into other feats. Shun the dark chaos lets you change abyssal heritor feats into any feat you qualify for, so you don't have to turn them back into the same feats they were before. It's essentially a way of re-writing (or shuffling) all of your feats.

And yeah, elves are nice because they get Martial Weapon Proficiency four times, so that's four more or less useless bonus feats that can be shuffled into something useful.

[questionmark693]

Ok, totally makes sense, thanks. How does that turn into an infinite loop though?

[Rhynn]

The thread I linked sorta explains it, but...

In Elder Evils, there's a rule for devoting yourself to an Elder Evil you know of:
"Any intelligent and evil creature can swear service to an elder evil if the creature knows of its existence. Doing so grants the creature one bonus feat, plus an extra bonus feat for every five character levels or Hit Dice. These bonus feats must be selected from among the vile feats given in the accompanying table. Elder evils do not grant spells." (I think that's the correct quote.)

So you get those bonus vile feats and shuffle them into other feats.

I don't buy that you can "un-devote" and "re-devote" yourself to an Elder Evil, but then all TO pretty much relies on the most beneficial interpretation of the rules to the point of being ridiculous. "It doesn't explicitly say otherwise!" is the motto of TO.

(The slight hurdle of needing to pass DC ~35+ checks to even be aware of Elder Evils by name is pretty much trivial at these levels of optimization, of course.)

[TuggyNE]

There are a number of ways of temporarily gaining feats to feed into the shuffle, but all of them rely on the idea that after shuffling, it doesn't matter if you lose the original feat, the shuffled feat remains. (Heroics is probably one of the most trivial ways to do it.)

[Piggy Knowles]

The Alertness you get from being within arm's reach of your familiar is the easiest way that I know of to turn DCFS into as many feats as you need.

[Cruiser1]

Fiendish Codex I: Hordes of the Abyss has the spells embrace the dark chaos and shun the dark chaos. The first lets you trade a feat for a vile feat. The other lets you trade a vile feat for a feat.
Note the "Abyssal heritor feat replaces one feat of the subject's choice that it already possesses", and similar in the reverse direction the Abyssal heritor feat is "replaced by any other feat for which the subject qualifies". In other words, it's a REPLACEMENT attached to the original feat and that feat slot's restrictions, not a TRADE to an arbitrary no-strings-attached bonus feat.

For example, if you replace a Wizard bonus metamagic/item feat with an Abyssal heritor feat, and then replace it back, it's still attached to the "Wizard bonus feat" slot, and therefore can only be adjusted back to a metamagic/item feat instead of an arbitrary feat. Similarly, if you replace the Fighter bonus feat provided by the Heroics spell, not only can it only be replaced back to a different Fighter bonus feat, but even in the Abyssal heritor feat form it and that "feat slot" will still go away once the duration of Heroics expires.

I realize people may interpret the RAW wording differently. But the above interpretation does seem to be RAI, and allows Chaos Shuffling to still be useful (as a way to get temporary/permanent access to Abyssal heritor feats, and beyond that a faster way for feat retraining beyond the PHB2 rules) without being so cheesy all DM's have to ban it to avoid characters having numerous if not infinite feats.

[Xervous]

Now what would it feel like to be the subject of a chaos shuffle?

[Rhynn]

I realize people may interpret the RAW wording differently.

Like I said, theoretical optimization always goes for the most advantageous interpretation that isn't explicitly excluded by the text of the rules. That's why it's theoretical optimization. I wouldn't ever even allow replacing racial martial weapon proficiencies with other feats.

[Andorax]

Another popular source of shuffleable feats is spending time in the Otyugh Hole (mystical location....Sandstorm, was it?). That grants you the Great Fortitude feat. Shuffle it for something else, go back in, get granted Great Fortitude again...repeat.

[ddude987]

Another popular source of shuffleable feats is spending time in the Otyugh Hole (mystical location....Sandstorm, was it?). That grants you the Great Fortitude feat. Shuffle it for something else, go back in, get granted Great Fortitude again...repeat.

minor nitpick: It grants iron will IIRC

[Gildedragon]

Or other feats, such as Skill focus etcetera
It's in Complete Scoundrel, not sandstorm
And in terms of gp efficiency the Frog God's Fane is better.

[Tokiko Mima]

Heck, infinite feats might be as easy as having a familiar stand within arms reach, then Embracing the Dark Chaos all over your Alertness feat. Have the familiar move away, and Shun the Dark Chaos back to a free feat. Then rinse and repeat, 500XP per feat.

I wonder if the Dark Chaos Shuffle should be performed with an accompanying waltz or a tango? :smalltongue:

[Kelb_Panthera]

Note the "Abyssal heritor feat replaces one feat of the subject's choice that it already possesses", and similar in the reverse direction the Abyssal heritor feat is "replaced by any other feat for which the subject qualifies". In other words, it's a REPLACEMENT attached to the original feat and that feat slot's restrictions, not a TRADE to an arbitrary no-strings-attached bonus feat.

For example, if you replace a Wizard bonus metamagic/item feat with an Abyssal heritor feat, and then replace it back, it's still attached to the "Wizard bonus feat" slot, and therefore can only be adjusted back to a metamagic/item feat instead of an arbitrary feat. Similarly, if you replace the Fighter bonus feat provided by the Heroics spell, not only can it only be replaced back to a different Fighter bonus feat, but even in the Abyssal heritor feat form it and that "feat slot" will still go away once the duration of Heroics expires.

I realize people may interpret the RAW wording differently. But the above interpretation does seem to be RAI, and allows Chaos Shuffling to still be useful (as a way to get temporary/permanent access to Abyssal heritor feats, and beyond that a faster way for feat retraining beyond the PHB2 rules) without being so cheesy all DM's have to ban it to avoid characters having numerous if not infinite feats.

You're thinking of retraining from PHB2.

There's no such thing as a feat slot. You just get feats when the rules say you get them. There's absolutely nothing in RAW to so much as imply any sort of slots-to-be-filled setup.

It's a gross oversight, really, but it's simply not in the rules.

[Emperor Tippy]

Note the "Abyssal heritor feat replaces one feat of the subject's choice that it already possesses", and similar in the reverse direction the Abyssal heritor feat is "replaced by any other feat for which the subject qualifies". In other words, it's a REPLACEMENT attached to the original feat and that feat slot's restrictions, not a TRADE to an arbitrary no-strings-attached bonus feat.

For example, if you replace a Wizard bonus metamagic/item feat with an Abyssal heritor feat, and then replace it back, it's still attached to the "Wizard bonus feat" slot, and therefore can only be adjusted back to a metamagic/item feat instead of an arbitrary feat. Similarly, if you replace the Fighter bonus feat provided by the Heroics spell, not only can it only be replaced back to a different Fighter bonus feat, but even in the Abyssal heritor feat form it and that "feat slot" will still go away once the duration of Heroics expires.

I realize people may interpret the RAW wording differently. But the above interpretation does seem to be RAI, and allows Chaos Shuffling to still be useful (as a way to get temporary/permanent access to Abyssal heritor feats, and beyond that a faster way for feat retraining beyond the PHB2 rules) without being so cheesy all DM's have to ban it to avoid characters having numerous if not infinite feats.

RAW there is no such thing as a "feat slot".

When a wizard gets a bonus feat the RAW is "you may only choose a feat from this list".

Embrace says "you may trade any feat that you have for one from this list".
Shun says "you may trade any Heritor feat that you have for any other feat that you qualify for".

Where it gets moderately hazy is with temporary feats from things like Heroics. That however is overcome by the fact that when Heroics (and the like end) they remove the specific feat that they gave you (such as Martial Study: Shadow Jaunt). So long as you do not have said feat in your build at the time Heroics runs out, no feat is removed.

With Embrace and Shun being Instantaneous duration they break the chain entirely. Especially since spells only check validity at the time of casting (which is why you can end up with a permanent shrink item on your body, although being the caster for that one can be a bitch).

[Cruiser1]

There's no such thing as a feat slot. You just get feats when the rules say you get them. There's absolutely nothing in RAW to so much as imply any sort of slots-to-be-filled setup.
Yes there is! :smallsmile: "Feat slot" is a SRD term, such as seen on this page (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/spontaneousMetamagic.htm). I agree you "get feats when the rules say you get them". Each feat granted from whatever source is a permanent or temporary feat slot, which is filled with a feat meeting whatever restrictions. Wizard bonus feats are slots granted every 5th level, which can only be filled with a metamagic or item feat. Heroics grants a temporary slot, which can only be filled with a Fighter feat.

Embrace says "you may trade any feat that you have for one from this list". Shun says "you may trade any Heritor feat that you have for any other feat that you qualify for".
No it doesn't! :smallsmile: Embrace says the "Abyssal heritor feat replaces one feat of the subject's choice that it already possesses". Shun says the Abyssal heritor feat is "replaced by any other feat for which the subject qualifies". In other words, it's not a TRADE but a REPLACEMENT. That means there's no granting of a new feat slot, but rather the original feat in whatever slot has been replaced or overwritten with an Abyssal heritor feat. If that feat slot goes away, so does the feat (whether the original feat, the feat if replaced with an Abyssal heritor feat, or the feat if double Embrace/Shun replaced to a different feat of the same type).

That however is overcome by the fact that when Heroics (and the like end) they remove the specific feat that they gave you (such as Martial Study: Shadow Jaunt). So long as you do not have said feat in your build at the time Heroics runs out, no feat is removed.
Oh come on, that's like saying if I summon a Wyvern, and then polymorph it into a Elemental, the Elemental stays forever. After all, the summoning spell summoned a Wyvern, and there's no Wyvern to unsummon! The "monster slot" originally contained a Wyvern, but magic was used to replace that monster with an Elemental (as opposed to create a new Elemental unattached to the original "monster slot"). Heroics doesn't say anything about that when the spell expires, it only removes the specific feat you chose for that slot. Rather Heroics grants a feat slot for the duration of the spell that can be filled with a Fighter feat, and "polymorphing" that feat into something else doesn't chance the fact that the slot is temporary and goes away when the spell ends.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I read every word on the linked page, Cruiser. There's no mention of feat slots anywhere.

I honestly have no idea why you thought there was.

In any case, this discussion's been had before. The last person advocating the feat-slot idea couldn't find so much as the implication either.

As for the polymorphed summon analogy; polymorph isn't an instant spell. Moreover, summon monster doesn't "unsummon" the creature at the end of its duration. The magical effect keeping the creature on the prime simply dries up.

As tippy mentioned, things like heroics getting you a permanent feat through DCFS is a bit of a grey area. There's no grey in regards to shuffling bonus feats, feats from magical locations, or feats from items (provided they grant the actual feat and not just its effect) though.

[TuggyNE]

I read every word on the linked page, Cruiser. There's no mention of feat slots anywhere.

There actually is, but it's a passing reference that uses non-standard terminology while discussing the metagame implications of a variant rule. It's not rules text, it's not definitive, it imposes no new restriction on feat exchange, and it's definitely not primary source.

[Kelb_Panthera]

There actually is, but it's a passing reference that uses non-standard terminology while discussing the metagame implications of a variant rule. It's not rules text, it's not definitive, it imposes no new restriction on feat exchange, and it's definitely not primary source.

I'm not seeing it. Can I get a quote to help me find it?

[mattie_p]

I'm not seeing it. Can I get a quote to help me find it?

Sure.


Metagame Analysis: Spontaneous Metamagic
The first variant ...

Unlike in the standard rules...

A character using the first variant—particularly one who must prepare spells ahead of time—almost certainly uses her metamagic feats much more often than she would without the variant. At first, it may seem as if the character has gained significant power, but that’s to be expected when a new option be comes available. Ultimately, the limit of daily uses keeps this new ability from getting out of hand, and the simple fact that the character had to spend a feat slot to gain the ability in the first place is still a balancing factor.

Snipped the paragraphs, but indicated them so you would get context.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Well I'll be damned.

Still completely irrelevant since it has absolutely nothing to do with the rules for how feats are aquired.

It's simply one of the quickest ways to convey the concept of the opportunity cost of selecting one feat when you could've selected any of a number of others rather than an actual rules key-phrase.

[mattie_p]

Well, I'll be damned.


Well I'll be damned.

I'm making a collection today, any other takers?

[Cruiser1]

It's not rules text, it's not definitive, it imposes no new restriction on feat exchange, and it's definitely not primary source.
There are other references to the concept of feat slots in various books, even in the context of feat exchanging. For example, in PHB2 we have the rules:

"Retraining involves small-scale changes to your character, such as reallocation of feat slots and skill ranks." (page 192)

Also, if "your character no longer qualifies for a feat she already has, she loses access to the feat, as well as to any others for which it is a prerequisite. However, the feat still occupies a feat slot". (page 198)

I'm not seeing it. Can I get a quote to help me find it?
You can easily locate specific text using the search command of your browser. In other words, visit the page (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/spontaneousMetamagic.htm), then just search for the text "feat slot" on it. Pressing "Ctrl+f" will bring up search in IE, Chrome, and most other browsers. See also the "Edit / Find on this Page..." menu command in IE.

[Kelb_Panthera]

My browser doesn't have a search command; an unfortunate consequence of having internet access only through a nintendo wii.

Again, in those contexts the phrase "feat slot" is -not- a rules key-phrase. It's simply one of the most expedient ways of describing the fact that you had an opportunity to choose a feat as described in the rules that actually define how feats are handled.

Notice that in the actual rules text for retraining feats on the very next page (193) there's absolutely no mention of feat slots? The quoted portion from page 198 is simply stating that you don't get to instantly reselect your feats just because you don't qualify anymore but that they also don't go away because you couldn't have chosen them with your new race.

One of your citations isn't even in rules text and the other is just as incidental and irrelevant as your first.

[TuggyNE]

There are other references to the concept of feat slots in various books, even in the context of feat exchanging. For example, in PHB2 we have the rules:

"Retraining involves small-scale changes to your character, such as reallocation of feat slots and skill ranks." (page 192)

Also, if "your character no longer qualifies for a feat she already has, she loses access to the feat, as well as to any others for which it is a prerequisite. However, the feat still occupies a feat slot". (page 198)

Well now, that's more like it. However, are feat slots specifically defined, or the rules for tying original feat sources to replaced feats ever stated, for any context outside of PHB2 feat retraining specifically? Because the DCFS does not use PHB2 retraining.

[Rhynn]

Well now, that's more like it. However, are feat slots specifically defined, or the rules for tying original feat sources to replaced feats ever stated, for any context outside of PHB2 feat retraining specifically? Because the DCFS does not use PHB2 retraining.

Yeah, unless there's a definition of "feat slots" given somewhere, it's pretty irrelevant. It also is completely irrelevant as to why I think the Chaos Shuffle doesn't and shouldn't work. (But then again, I don't think enhancement bonuses to ability scores should qualify you for feats, either! I'm so mean...)

[Kelb_Panthera]

Remember how I said this discussion's been had before.

I wasn't kidding. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=261412)

The whole mess started on post 10.