Firearms build

[thebladeofchaos]

Watch this be a question already asked on here. :(

Anyway, I'm playing a advanced (for DnD) tech game set during 1590's Japan with a rogue with a liking for firearms. Oriental adventures are so much fun for this :D

Yes, begin the line about how I'm taking risks considering the many numbers of FIREBALLS that will be coming my way. I know they are as well.

Anyway, whilst I get that firearms are going to be a hard style to play consider it's high risk against anything you aren't prepared to fight. (so pretty much anything that isn't human or anything that has a high dex (last I knew I was in good with the Hattori and the other Ninjas)) I'm looking at ways to improve the character over time.

We're only level one at the moment, with my three feats (took a flaw of sense motive, Human and level one) I took Proficiency. in gunpowder weapons, two weapon fighting (as I didn't know what the ranged weapon one is) and Weapon finess with a shortsword for emergency situations. (like can't reload in time)

So, my plan right now is to get an item that gives me sniper shot on every turn so I keep getting sneak attacks on the target I'm shooting. that way the d12 is joined by friendly d6's. But I'm wondering what feats I should take.

Next thing on my list was to get weapon focus and keep going with the firearms, getting as much as I can for them. aside from that, I don't know what I can take feats wise to improve it aside from almost literally anything that gives me a better shot.

So...any ideas? (do note, I do plan on getting some jade rounds instead of jading a weapon. that way I can spread them out if we get shadowland taint) I'm open to anything (well, aside from 'DON'T PLAY FIREARMS')

[Gavinfoxx]

Which rules for firearms are you using?

[thebladeofchaos]

so far, RAW. one shot in the gun, standard to reload.

Got a number of house rules which kept adding up though. so, all the rules we're running with htis.

aside from the ones in the DMG, where it's 1d10 damage for pistols and 1d12 for Muskets, he's also lowered the cost to 50 and 100 respectively (avaliability during the age):

Half range brackets (Our DM is a physics teacher and says the Magners effect kicks in)
fumble on a 1 means explosion
armor piercing
balance check to reload on the run (fail just loses the shot and the powder for that shot)
and anything that affects fire affects it (resistance to fire means I can't shoot, if I'm hit with fire, kaboom)
Can't waterproof so needs to be kept out the rain. (Why do I imagine having to carry an umbrella everywhere?)

He's also allowing Bayonettes and knifes to be attached. however, if the weapon undergoes these and gets hit, it would damage the gun and indeed need to be replaced.

that's about it. Right now I'm running with a good hide, good move silently and good listen, to make sure I can't be found until I fire.

[Vamphyr]

Watch Princess Mononoke and follow some of the tactics the Iron Town soldiers use. They keep the barrels of their guns wrapped in wax paper to protect from rain, and constantly make sure to keep the ignition source dry. You may also want to consider hiring an NPC or two who do nothing but reload firearms and hold umbrellas.

[Gavinfoxx]

Unless you can get a stat to damage, it's not worth it... 1d10 or 1d12 is crappy damage.

Look here:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125732

For ideas.

[ArcturusV]

I take it that a bayonet for a long arm would be 1d8 to mimic a spear (Closest analogue)? Kinda sucks with the range ruling. Not that I find I have a lot of opportunity to really make long range shots in the game (No one wants the encounter where the first four turns are me taking pot shots while everyone else sits around). But really that's the major strength of a projectile weapon, so getting cut off at the knees like that can't be good for you.

DM giving you blunderbuss fire as well so you can get an AoE spread? Might want to suggest that. Use the rules from D20 Modern for Shotguns from it (Other than reload rate). Which would be a much better option for mid battle firing than loading a standard ball. Nor is the idea of a flak gun like that really out of character for the setting.

Other than that. Hmm, feat wise? All I can really think of other than the obvious "Projectile Feat Tax Lines" like Point Blank shot, maybe see if Crossbow Sniper can get adapted for Firearms as it is quite similar in weapon performance, would be taking up Leadership at some point so you can have your own Iron Town Murder Squad. Firearms become a lot more effective when you got a lot of level 1 characters firing volleys behind you. More so than giving them a Crossbow or Longbow would be. Taking up feats like Phalanx, Close-Order Drill, etc, so you formation of Riflemen get miss chances when they stay in formation will help defend them from counter fire.

[gorfnab]

Have you considered using the firearm rules from Pathfinder (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/gunslinger)?

[Gavinfoxx]

Have you considered using the firearm rules from Pathfinder (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/gunslinger)?

Don't, they suck... there are a LOT of bad firearms rules, Pathfinders included...

[Norin]

Warblade: weapon aptitude, twf, and add in all the typical dotu hand crossbow feats and such.

would that work for fast reloading? No idea how it would work fluff wise, but i think it works rules wise.

[thebladeofchaos]

I was thinking of taking a few Luck feats here and there (better lucky then good to negate the natural 1 however many times I can reroll)

Otherwise, aside from the hirelings, I was thinking of keeping the guns covered at all times during the rains, be it by using the cover of trees or the wax paper idea.

The stat to damage thing I was going to get an item that gives me sniper shot every round, that way I can get my sneak attacks which, when used with a pair of pistols can help a ton at high levels. (level 1 engagement last session against a mass of riders, with their leader having better stats. took down one in one shot at 3 brackets and one shot into the leader dealt 4 on the shot with 3 sneak. (Barely below average))

I think the bayonette would just be a longer range knife under our DM. what emails we've mentioned it he mentions it more as a knife then making it into a spear. Either way, I'd rather keep that for emergencies as the DM is ruling that they take something off your to hit (Still asking in Emails. seemed to be the general agreement but he hasn't said an exact figure yet) I'm really going to be working on hiding and sniping out of range of the enemy.

Asked about Blunderbuss and we didn't know when they had been invented so we aren't playing them yet (seems I'm annoying my DM as my character is making him reasearch loads upon loads of history :D ) I like the idea of bringing it considering the amount it'd do in point blank, but I've barely had enough to buy a pair with 30 or so shots. (and considering the rate I'm using them, that'll be about 10 standard encounters if I don't use my pair of swords in CC)

I've never heard of Phalanx (unless you mean Phalanx fighting) or Close-Order Drill. Which book are they?

would Arterial Strike give me some kind of benefit? Sneak attack in a fight, cause a bleed and keep stacking it with the sniper shot.

Whilst I've lost the range of firearms, the armor piercing makes up for that against humans. I also haven't enquired into what feats we could make usable for firearms aside from weapon prof (gun/black powder) which applies for all 4 of them. I've taken two weapon fighting but I understand that isn't the right one. (pair of pistols, may be a while to reload, but a great opening)

I've not heard of Warblade, so which book do I need to look into for that?

[ArcturusV]

Warblade is in Tome of Battle.

Close-Order Fighting, and Improved Close-Order Fighting are in a 3rd party book (thus it might not be good to use, depending on how your DM feels about it). The first requires BAB of 3. When two guys with the feat are adjacent, the guy on the left gets +2 AC, +1 Reflex Saving throw, as well as a 25% miss chance. Improved requires a BAB of 12, and having Close-Order Fighting. If two allies are "fighting as a unit" (Doesn't actually require being adjacent by RAW, but probably RAI) and at least one has that feat, both of them gain the benefits of of having hard cover (4 AC, 2 Reflex, etc, etc, etc) and a 50% miss chance, and can't be flanked except by rogues of 4 or more levels higher than the highest level ally.

[thebladeofchaos]

gonna have to check my books to see if I've got that (it's a shared collection built over years between me and my brother. can't recall them all off hand) but I'll check it out.

As for the 3rd party book....I don't think he'll go for it to be honest. I've brought up material from Sites that chronicle the books (no fan material at all (I loved the shield sheath when it was allowed)) and he wasn't happy to go with it until he saw it in a book (and here I wanted to try a skirmisher)

Either way, let me know the book and If I've got it I'll present it to him as an idea.

Again, waiting on an answer as to what feats I can use for firearms. I'm hoping its the same as crossbows for the sake of simlicity. (only problem is, knowing how this normally works, it'll be some sort of penalty for doing it, like a chance it explodes)

[Kelb_Panthera]

Don't, they suck... there are a LOT of bad firearms rules, Pathfinders included...

Can you suggest anything better?

They're not stellar, but they're a heck of a lot better than what's in the DMG, especially with his DM's houserules.

[thebladeofchaos]

So far, if it affects Reload, it affects the fumble chance. Reloading on the move makes it so I need to do a balance check or lose the round and powder. Rapid reload gets me the next round in quicker, but increases the fumble by one.

Also, changing the round type (from normal to acid as the example) negate the armor piercing effect. (ok, delayed blast fireball round, fire it into his armor and watch it blow him up from the inside)

I'm planning on getting bayonets/blades for my weapons along with a hidden blade for my character. (selling my normal swords for the hidden ones so that I can catch them off guard first round) Along with an item of Sniper shot to keep the surprise attacks going. (2 shots of 1d10 + 1d6 or 1 of 1d12 + 1d6 25 to 75 ft respectively) So I can do hit and run attacks very effectively and indeed use the bayonets to buy time for others to take them on.

A plan to do is to buy an item of Improved invis to keep hidden and take them down that way. Precise shot to fire into melee, shot on the run to run and fire, better Lucky then good to negate the ones every so often. I'm going to need to train feats a lot.

hirelings: not worth it. I'm paying EXP and money for someone to reload and hold an umbrella. I can do hit and run more effectively without.

Also, I'm selling my swords to buy a pair of hidden blades so that I can catch them off guard if I'm not using my guns. (also helps with the setting as you have to leave weapons at the door, and if they don't know it's a weapon, I can get away with it) and if it looks like I'm unarmed, then I can stab them with a nice blade for an extra sneak attack. (twice :D )

I don't have Pathfinder books so I can't use any of them. annoyingly.

So what do you guys think so far?

[Gavinfoxx]

Well, there's the rules in D20 Modern - Past. Those are okay, I guess. Not great, but okay.

Iron Kingdoms has some firearms rules.

Those would be the two places I look for ideas.

[ArcturusV]

Shikome-zue is usually my go to for Concealed Swording. Though a shillelagh (No, not the spell) is also a solid choice for personal defense.

Soon as your wealth allows it, I'd just do something like keep a brace of wheellocks on hand for your need to dish out the gun hurt fast.

[thebladeofchaos]

Concerning the Wheellocks, the game is based in old Japan, so if I want to get them I need to wait two years in game, which, considering we couldn't take out some Kappa safely, isn't likely.

And, If I want to fire both my pistols, I need to use Rapid shot. So to benefit from them properly, I need Ambidex, 2 weapon fight and that to actually use them right. Right now, I think the pistols will be for close quarters, but the close range engagements will be handled by the bayonets.

I did get one victory in a sense, if I fire the bayoneted weapons, I instantly prepare for melee, so no bonuses for hitting me using just a ranged weapon. Saying that, attacking is getting difficult considering my allies constantly insist on getting in the way of my shots, even when I warn them that I will be firing. (and when I tried to explain it to one of them then took the shot when it came to my turn so that my Musket wouldn't explode, got blamed for not getting a proper line of sight to my target that wasn't through an ally)

Whilst I like the idea of the Sword Cane, I prefer the hidden blade as I can walk around looking like I have no weapons, then be able to stab one down with surprise. That and the cane would stand out as a stick I'm carrying.

Way things are going, I'm going to need to provide the artillery considering our only mage in the party is a Shigenja (or whatever the healer is). so my bullets are going to be needing to be enchanted to cover the effects we lack in terms of offence. (We had a discussion concerning this, with the two views being enchant the guns to do it so that meaning a more expensive Musket but cheaper rounds, or to make the bullets magical, meaning more locations to hold the bullets and a cheaper gun (or a gun with enchantments))

Seems if I want to do my shooting, I need to do it one gun at a time for now until I can get two weapon fighting effectively going. and that's going to take a few levels.

[Raineh Daze]

... why does Resistance to Fire stop you from making fire? That's a bizarre houserule. Does a wizard with elemental resistance become unable to use fireball? Is a red dragon incapable of breathing fire? :smallconfused:

[Than]

If you can get the Pathfinder Gunslinger (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/gunslinger) allowed I would suggest taking that. You can get Dex to damage by taking either the class as-is or any archetype EXCEPT Mysterious Stranger.

Their guns have built in misfire rules which can end in explosions.

The reload rules are full-round for two handed guns, standard for 1 handed, and rapid reload drops those a step.

Complete Scoundrel has a bayonet pre-written for 3.5 which deals damage as a dagger. Originally designed for crossbows.

As a Pathfinder campaign setting DM with a Gunslinger in the party I'm not going to believe the gun rules suck until someone can prove it. He does more damage than everyone except the pouncing quadraped eidolon and the wildly successful crit fisher (and he only threatens 18-20 currently).

[thebladeofchaos]

That's what I thought, but considering that it keeps me from losing all my gunpowder in one fireball (and indeed dying in one large explosion :smalleek: ), not something I have the guts to argue against.

Saying that, I'm relying so much on my Rogue's dex, I'm hoping I don't get a bad roll anytime soon. (something to add, they wanted to add the penalty on using the Bayonet to the firing roll considering the section clearly states attacking with the Bayonet)

I actually asked a few things after the mass question-a-thon, and got a few things:

Can have Scopes so the Goblin Crossbow scope can be used for the Musket. (Too big for the pistol, but could be useful) so this is good news for me
Changing the round to something else (like say, an acid round) negates the Armor piercing effect. (might have said this one already). It won't affect it if I enchant a bullet to do something (so a bullet that deals 1d6 sonic after hitting still deals the same as normal with the extra)
takes a standard to reload, move under rapid reload (thank god) so normal

and the one I found the most entertaining considering, aside from the resistance to fire making it so I can't fire.

If a creature has natural armor, this isn't negated.......:smallconfused:

....WHY? :smallconfused:

Surely considering that only the thickest armors can actually begin to resist the bullets. and then they are like a foot thick (not literally) that means that creatures that mostly rely on Natural armor are in the same deadlock as humans who rely on armor. it's going to be negated. I mean isn't there an idea that armor that thick (To use an example, the Bullet proof Samurai from Shogun 2's type) would be both few and far between, extremely hard to make, would make you so slow in melee that you're better off as a human wall and make you vulnerable to touch attacks.

I get that creatures in the game have a good natural armor later on, with some having very high levels of it, and those I don't have an arguement against, I'll find some other way to fight them, relying on magic bullets if need be. but surely we're looking more for cover saves then thick armor to prevent a bullet from killing you at that stage.

Than: I'm using those very Bayonets, but they are treated as half spear and Spear for Knife and sword respectivly. (Running the knife on the pistols and the sword on the Musket so I can fire and prep for a charge) Shame really as I can do more with a sword or dagger then a spear, but it helps against Cavalry.

I've been reading through the link and....well, I've got to ask: those books listed on the Gunslinger page and the Firearms page. (the Gunslinger workbook, the class acts books and the tome of Munitions). Do I need them all for the rules or is there one that covers them all? I'm VERY interested in that class, and if I can get one book in order to cover everything I need as opposed to 3 to do the same, I would. (Tell your gunslinger, once I get going I'd like some tips :D )

Also, with the 'Firearms suck' thing....Whilst I love my rogue with her firearms, under the current houserules, they kinda do. Saying that he hasn't run firearms with characters before so I can understand that.

[Gavinfoxx]

If you can get the Pathfinder Gunslinger (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/gunslinger) allowed I would suggest taking that.

I wouldn't. It can't do anything other than shoot, it's a pretty low-powered class.

[thebladeofchaos]

To be fair Gavvin, right now our party is missing a mage (it was given to me, but I can't play mages to save my life never mind the parties). We've got the rogue, three fighters and a healer, so we need a good 'artillery' component...and I've been playing around with firearms so long that it's almost worth it.

:smallbiggrin:

....what?

Ok, I'll admit it, seeing as they are there, might as well use them as much as I can. when they're gone, don't know if they'll be back.

Especially if my allies keep moaning about friendly fire. :smallsigh:

[Than]

When it comes to books everything gets very simple very quickly.

Tome of Munitions: That's an advertisement. Ignore it.

Class Acts: That's an advertisement. Ignore it.

Character Workbook: That's an advertisement. Probably should ignore it.

None of those are from Paizo, the creators of Pathfinder.

Gunslinger is found in the Paizo Official publication called Ultimate Combat. The ENTIRE gunslinger section is legally (yes, really) reproduced on the wiki and therefore you need nothing outside of that wiki page. I have the book anyway. Beautiful art and it makes me feel special.

[thebladeofchaos]

Ok, now this is making me very tempted to kill off my characters as soon as I can lol. (Samurai is down to about 3 honour points, so...yeah, might be worth it if I can make it to third level) that and a gunslinger in a party lacking firepower would be a welcome addition.

Just found the page for buying it (DM prefers books, but I'll see if he'll take a PDF) and I'll see about getting it downloaded later in the week. (Torrent or Legally)

For what it's worth, I saw this class a while back, but couldn't find the book for it so dropped it in exchange for Rogue. (Sneak attack at range made it that instead of fighter or ranger)

I really hope my DM allows it.

[thebladeofchaos]

In other news, finally got out of my DM what I need to fire more then one pistol.

I need rapid shot.

So really, I'm going to have to work with one pistol and then back it up with something like a hidden blade or a straight up sword. Thankfully he has allowed the bayonet to sneak attack, and the hidden blade is usful so far (Current biggest fight, party of Shape changers vs us in a Close quarters environ. the guys got put into a bathhouse, set on fire when they were locked in, and the women were taken to a tapastry then attacked after said locking up.

Hidden blade pair got a good set of sneak attacks off. otherwise it went well. seems research saved us more then actual fighting.

Right now, my musket is damaged, and I'd rather not risk firing it while it has a dent in the barrel. good bye 75ft range. hello two seperate pistols. Looks like I'll be looking for point blank shot soon. :(

Otherwise, my Rogue is shaping up well. She's making up for the lack of a wizard with her firepower, is great at waking people up during a night attack. (was on guard duty with the rest of the party asleep. instead of shouting to wake them up when it began, she took a shot at a zombie and woke them with a start) now all I need to do now is to match her skill at hiding with her range with firearms. need as many sneak attacks as I can get and I can't afford sniper shot just yet after upgrading my gear.

Also, the DM actually gave me a Samurai whom I played as a woman and took the Daisho set away from me. so....all I became was a fighter with restrictions, more will and less feats....I know what I'd rather have. He let me swap classes after I told him my reasons.

next point of call: either an item of improved invis after getting precise and point blank shot, or working on improving the firearms to make them take less damage or indeed be able to fix them.

[Emperor Tippy]

What class are you using?

Because Rogue 1/ Factotum 8/ Swordsage 10/ Exemplar 1 with lots of Font of Inspiration could be positively insane.

Get Greater Invisibility for one round from Swordsage. Get Extended Persistent Guided Shot from a wand, use Sniper's Shot to make your next attack from any range a sneak attack, and then pile on the Cunning Strike for (potentially) a +90d6 or so sneak attack.

If you are within 30 ft. then use Cloak of Deception as your Swift and then use your IP all on Cunning Surge as each one will be a sneak attack (+3d6 with Assassins Stance) and thus get Craven damage added it (in addition to Int from Cunning Insight).

You will also be a far better ninja then if you actually took the ninja class.

[thebladeofchaos]

O_O OH MY GOD!!!!

....Ok, that is EVIL! Why didn't I do that. that's win. Tippy.

Sadly though, I haven't seen Factorum, swordsage and Exemplar in the books I have. (it's show the book or you can't have it. only reason I may be able to get Ultimate combat in is due to having the PDF)

And I'm now a Rogue 2. I don't think I have IP at all. (Saying that, a reason I'm looking at Luck feats is to resist the DM's beloved natural 1 with a loaded Musket. Nearly had that today but it only just avoided it due to not having reloaded)

I'm not actually looking to be a ninja. Right now I'm looking to do the firepower we're lacking from not having a Wu Jen in the party. I love the idea of being a stealthy marksman and blasting them to pieces. Evasion and such are great for avoiding flames (Trapped in a burning building earlier, what does a party member do? run by with a flaming door. :smallconfused: ) Once we get to a high enough level and we have the gold to hand, I intend on buying either an upgrade to my musket and pistols to give them special effects (fireball shot, etc) or buying the ammo. (expensive either way)

Besides, we already have a ninja, I don't want to take his role. I'm more of the party artillery...if a lot riskier for myself on account of explosive consequences. :smallannoyed:

Might be late to say this, we're running 3.5

[Gavinfoxx]

That's because they are 3.5e, not Pathfinder. Factotum, not Rogues, get Inspiration points.

[Emperor Tippy]

O_O OH MY GOD!!!!

....Ok, that is EVIL! Why didn't I do that. that's win. Tippy.

Sadly though, I haven't seen Factorum, swordsage and Exemplar in the books I have. (it's show the book or you can't have it. only reason I may be able to get Ultimate combat in is due to having the PDF)

And I'm now a Rogue 2. I don't think I have IP at all. (Saying that, a reason I'm looking at Luck feats is to resist the DM's beloved natural 1 with a loaded Musket. Nearly had that today but it only just avoided it due to not having reloaded)

I'm not actually looking to be a ninja. Right now I'm looking to do the firepower we're lacking from not having a Wu Jen in the party. I love the idea of being a stealthy marksman and blasting them to pieces. Evasion and such are great for avoiding flames (Trapped in a burning building earlier, what does a party member do? run by with a flaming door. :smallconfused: ) Once we get to a high enough level and we have the gold to hand, I intend on buying either an upgrade to my musket and pistols to give them special effects (fireball shot, etc) or buying the ammo. (expensive either way)

Besides, we already have a ninja, I don't want to take his role. I'm more of the party artillery...if a lot riskier for myself on account of explosive consequences. :smallannoyed:

Might be late to say this, we're running 3.5

Dump Exemplar and just go Rogue 2/ Factotum 8/ Swordsage 10.

If PDF's are acceptable for your group, PM me your e-mail address.