[PF] Herman the Hermit, Beard-fighter

[ArcanistSupreme]

So I was going to start a "P6" campaign and was looking for character ideas over in this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=286791), and grarrrg made this delightful suggestion:


NAKED BEARD WRESTLING, HEADBUTTING, SHARPENED FINGERNAILS SURLY DWARF OF DOOM!!!

Disclaimer: "Naked", "headbutting" and "dwarf" are all optional, but encouraged.

Link to Class Dipping Guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=230500)

It's up to you whether you start as Ranger into Witch, or Witch into Ranger, but either way get both before you branch out any.

Dwarf as Race, this lets you treat "dwarf weapons" as Martial.
Get a Dwarven Boulder Helmet (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/weapon-descriptions/helmet-dwarven-boulder), it's a Light Weapon that does 1d4 damage, but importantly, does NOT require hands to use it.

2 levels of Ranger with the Natural Weapon combat style, grab Aspect of the Beast (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/aspect-of-the-beast) as your bonus feat, this give you 2 Claw attacks at 1d4 each.
You can choose (almost) any archetype, but with only 2 levels, I'd go with something like the Freebooter (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/ranger/archetypes/paizo---ranger-archetypes/freebooter). Gives you something handy to do on the turns you can't full attack.

Next, 1 level of White-Haired Witch (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/witch/archetypes/paizo---witch-archetypes/white-haired-witch), this gives you a 1d4 'Hair' attack, and most importantly, your 3rd Natural Attack, which qualifies you for the Multiattack (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/monster-feats/multiattack-combat) feat. Now your Natural Attacks only suffer a -2 to-hit for being 'secondary' attacks.
QUICK NOTE: If you use a Manufactured weapon and Natural attacks, then ALL natural attacks are considered Secondaries at typically take a -5 to-hit.

The level of Witch also allows you to take the Arcane Strike (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/arcane-strike-combat) feat, each round as a Swift Action ALL of your weapons get +1 damage and are considered Magic.

From here it partially depends on what your stats are, and more importantly, if your DM is using Fractional Bab (if yes on the Fractional, then you can afford 2 level in a 3/4 Bab class without losing any more).

A level or two of Monk can add your WIS to your AC, but then you cannot wear armor (but you could ditch the Dwarf and Unarmed Strike instead of headbutt).
2 levels of Inquisitor would add a 1/day Judgement, WIS added to Initiative, and a Domain power (there are some decent ones, and a few give a Feat as their first level power).
Some Barbarian would be handy for the STR bonus from Raging, although your Rage would be limited, adding +4 STR on FOUR attacks is quite nice.
2 more levels of Ranger aren't too shabby either. With Falconer (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/ranger/archetypes/paizo---ranger-archetypes/falconer) as your Archetype, you'd have a FULL progression Animal Companion (minus your Witch level that is).
And Fighter for the Feats is always a solid choice.


Obviously, it was love at first sight. I tinkered around with it and finally settled on this build:

Herman the Human Hermit
Str:17 Dex:14 Con:18 Int:11 Wis:10 Cha:7 (level 4 point will go to Str)

Witch 1/Ranger (Falconer) 2/Barbarian 1/Ranger 2

Traits:
Heirloom Weapon (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/equipment-traits/heirloom-weapon)
Good Dreams (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/religion-traits/good-dreams)

Feats:
Level 1: Arcane Strike
Human Bonus: Toughness
Level 3 Bonus: Aspect of the Beast
Level 3: Multiattack
Level 5 Bonus: Endurance
Level 6+: Power Attack, Weapon Focus (Claws), Extra Rage, Imp Nat Attack (claws), Step Up

Only my DM just decided that it will now be a campaign starting at level 3 and ending somewhere around 10-12 :smallfrown:. But I still want to play Herman! So now the only truly necessary part of the build is one level of witch and the proficiency with the Dwarven Boulder Helmet (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/weapon-descriptions/helmet-dwarven-boulder) and a way to get lots of natural attacks. Any suggestions on how to do this within the new level window?

Bonus points if you can incorporate the backstory:
I had pictured Herman as a man that had a religious vision in his dreams. When his fellow villagers scoffed and laughed at this, he went into a self-imposed exile, where he gained strength through reflection on his recurring visions. He also gained a penchant for talking to birds, because who else is he going to talk to? The recluse found a helmet in a cave and became obsessively attached to it, often wearing nothing but it and his beard. But then [INSERT CAMPAIGN PLOT HERE] happened, and now Herbert must save the very world that cast him out. And get people to understand that his religion is the one true path to enlightenment. And convince them that it's totally real.

But the most important thing is that he's a wild man with an even crazier beard. And he headbutts people.

[grarrrg]

So I was going to start a "P6" campaign and was looking for character ideas over in this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=286791)

I'm just popping in to say a few quick things:

1. I support this thread.

2. I'll think on this and get back to you with (more) ideas.

And finally...


graaarg

Who? (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RunningGag)

[Coidzor]

I'm sorry, but obligatory link is obligatory. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCte32mbCcU) :smallbiggrin:

Great idea. Good luck with it.

[grarrrg]

Herman the Human Hermit
Str:17 Dex:14 Con:18 Int:11 Wis:10 Cha:7 (level 4 point will go to Str)

Witch 1/Ranger (Falconer) 2/Barbarian 1/Ranger 2

Traits:
Heirloom Weapon (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/equipment-traits/heirloom-weapon)
Good Dreams (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/religion-traits/good-dreams)

Feats:
Level 1: Arcane Strike
Human Bonus: Toughness
Level 3 Bonus: Aspect of the Beast
Level 3: Multiattack
Level 5 Bonus: Endurance
Level 6+: Power Attack, Weapon Focus (Claws), Extra Rage, Imp Nat Attack (claws), Step Up

Only my DM just decided that it will now be a campaign starting at level 3 and ending somewhere around 10-12 :smallfrown:. But I still want to play Herman!

Ideas are in random order:

*Your Animal Companion VS. Rage. These 2 are not (nicely) compatible. The Ranger Archetype that gets Rage loses access to the Aspect of the Beast feat. The Barbarian Archetype that gets an Animal Companion doesn't get Rage until level 4 (level-3).
Granted, the Boon Companion and Extra Rage feats can help out here, but there are limits.

*(More)Natural Attacks. Catfolk (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/featured-races/arg-catfolk) can get Claws (1d4) from the start with an Alt-Racial trait.
Half-Orcs (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/core-races/half-orc) can start with a Bite (1d4).
Tieflings (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/featured-races/arg-tiefling) can start with _either_ a Bite (1d6) or Claws (1d4).
Tengu (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/featured-races/arg-tengu) can start with a Bite (1d3) and Claws attacks!

You can also get a Bite through 1 level of Oracle with the Wolfscarred Curse.

It's also possible to gain a Tentacle attack with 2 levels of Alchemist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist/discoveries/paizo---alchemist-discoveries/tentacle-ex), BUT as written it does NOT function as a Natural Attack normally would. You'd have to ask your DM for a hand wave (that, and Hermits are not normally known for their Tentacles...).

*Sneak Attack. Sneak Attack, Sneak Attack, Sneak Attack.
Get a Flank-Buddy, or someway to trigger it otherwise, but Sneak Attack can GREATLY increase your damage output. Your options are Rogue, or Alchemist (Vivisectionist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist/archetypes/paizo---alchemist-archetypes/vivisectionist) archetype) (Ninja not considered as the Ki Pool is CHA based, and CHA has been voted "stat most likely to be ignored completely in this build").
I'd go Vivisectionist for a level or 4. Extracts _mostly_ function like spells, but you'll have no problems 'casting' them in Armor, AND Alchemists have Enlarge Person on their spell list, AND Alchemists have Mutagen which can give decent bonuses to your Stats 1/day.

*Pounce: Sadly, as much as it would help, the easiest ways to get Pounce typically require 10(ish) levels in a single class. So by the time you could get Pounce, your campaign would be almost over.

[ArcanistSupreme]

Who? (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RunningGag)

Sorry, edited the earlier post for truthiness. :smallredface:


I'm sorry, but obligatory link is obligatory. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCte32mbCcU) :smallbiggrin:

Great idea. Good luck with it.

And 'e is now officially 'erman the 'ermit.


*Your Animal Companion VS. Rage. These 2 are not (nicely) compatible. The Ranger Archetype that gets Rage loses access to the Aspect of the Beast feat. The Barbarian Archetype that gets an Animal Companion doesn't get Rage until level 4 (level-3).
Granted, the Boon Companion and Extra Rage feats can help out here, but there are limits.

Alas. Yeah, prolly going to drop the animal companion. He's still going to talk to animals, though. Even if they never talk back. :smallbiggrin:


*(More)Natural Attacks. Catfolk (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/featured-races/arg-catfolk) can get Claws (1d4) from the start with an Alt-Racial trait.
Half-Orcs (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/core-races/half-orc) can start with a Bite (1d4).
Tieflings (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/featured-races/arg-tiefling) can start with _either_ a Bite (1d6) or Claws (1d4).
Tengu (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/featured-races/arg-tengu) can start with a Bite (1d3) and Claws attacks!

You can also get a Bite through 1 level of Oracle with the Wolfscarred Curse.

It's also possible to gain a Tentacle attack with 2 levels of Alchemist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist/discoveries/paizo---alchemist-discoveries/tentacle-ex), BUT as written it does NOT function as a Natural Attack normally would. You'd have to ask your DM for a hand wave (that, and Hermits are not normally known for their Tentacles...).

What do you think of being a half-orc and taking the Witch Doctor archetype and the prehensile hair hex instead of the white-haired witch archetype? It requires an extra level, but I get Con to attack on the beard, and I can pick up the flight hex later with the extra hex feat*. I also get a few other goodies, extra spells, and can dump Int down the tubes.

*Both hexes I'm using here are vague when they refer to level. Prehensile hair says "The witch can manipulate her hair a number of minutes each day equal to her level" and flight says "At 1st level...At 3rd level...At 5th level." Since other hexes (such as aura of purity) refer specifically to witch level, does this mean these two scale with character level rather than class level?


*Sneak Attack. Sneak Attack, Sneak Attack, Sneak Attack.
Get a Flank-Buddy, or someway to trigger it otherwise, but Sneak Attack can GREATLY increase your damage output. Your options are Rogue, or Alchemist (Vivisectionist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist/archetypes/paizo---alchemist-archetypes/vivisectionist) archetype) (Ninja not considered as the Ki Pool is CHA based, and CHA has been voted "stat most likely to be ignored completely in this build").
I'd go Vivisectionist for a level or 4. Extracts _mostly_ function like spells, but you'll have no problems 'casting' them in Armor, AND Alchemists have Enlarge Person on their spell list, AND Alchemists have Mutagen which can give decent bonuses to your Stats 1/day.

I've also discovered that wands have no ASF chance, so casting spells of the witch list via wands is also doable (Yay, CLW!). Vivisectionist is looking sexy. What do you think of throwing Ragechemist and/or Internal Alchemist on top of that? I'm on the fence about the tentacles for flavor reasons, so I don't think I'd mind trading discoveries for bonus feats, and the idea of laying around looking dead is funny. I'd have to be careful about dumping Int with Ragechemist, though.


*Pounce: Sadly, as much as it would help, the easiest ways to get Pounce typically require 10(ish) levels in a single class. So by the time you could get Pounce, your campaign would be almost over.

Yeah, I was looking really hard at going Witch 2/Barbarian 10, but I don't think it's worth it.

So right now I'm thinking:
'erman the 'alf-orc 'ermit
Str:17 Dex:16 Con:18 Int:7 Wis:10 Cha:7 (level 4 point will go to Str)

Barbarian 1/Witch 2/Alchemist 4/X 5

Traits:
Heirloom Weapon (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/equipment-traits/heirloom-weapon)
Good Dreams (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/religion-traits/good-dreams)

Feats:
Level 1: Power Attack
Level 3: Extra Hex (Nails)
Level 5 Bonus: Improved Initiative
Level 5: Multiattack
Level 7: Extra Hex (Flight)
Level 9: TBD
Level 11: TBD

Then what? More barbarian? Fighter for some feats? Any good prestige classes that would mesh with this?

[JusticeZero]

If you are allowed to use things in the psionics rules - and for bonus points, a class that doesn't even have any psionics - an Aberrant Aegis (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/aegis/archetypes/dreamscarred-press/aberrant) gets a whole lot of natural weapons - up to four tentacles, a stinging tail, hardened fists, spikes (both armor and launched), and some other stuff.
Regarding animal companions, 3.5 has a feat for that (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a). How balanced, etc. it is I can't say.

[Coidzor]

Regarding animal companions, 3.5 has a feat for that (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a). How balanced, etc. it is I can't say.

For 3.5, it's a fairly powerful feat, but tempered by the limitations of animals and the effect on the player's action economy to direct the wild cohort. Still, it is one of those feats where any character could take it and most would if they had an extra feat in their build. It won't really run into game-breaking territory unless the entire party or a significant portion of it take it at low levels.

With PF's standardization/nerf of animal companions, I haven't yet really run into anything other than maybe an animal companion set to character level -3 or -4 that would translate it.


*Both hexes I'm using here are vague when they refer to level. Prehensile hair says "The witch can manipulate her hair a number of minutes each day equal to her level" and flight says "At 1st level...At 3rd level...At 5th level." Since other hexes (such as aura of purity) refer specifically to witch level, does this mean these two scale with character level rather than class level?

I remember seeing something on the PF SRD where there was an FAQ ruling or forum posting where they admitted that they had just gotten lazy and left it out of some entries, but that the general assumption is that class abilities that refer to level are referring to class level unless they specifically state otherwise.

I don't have the energy to go digging to find it, so I can't confirm it one way or another for you, but I wouldn't get my hopes up if I were you. PF's devs are not very multiclass friendly, that's why they made so many archetypes, I believe.

[ArcanistSupreme]

If you are allowed to use things in the psionics rules - and for bonus points, a class that doesn't even have any psionics - an Aberrant Aegis (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/aegis/archetypes/dreamscarred-press/aberrant) gets a whole lot of natural weapons - up to four tentacles, a stinging tail, hardened fists, spikes (both armor and launched), and some other stuff.
Regarding animal companions, 3.5 has a feat for that (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a). How balanced, etc. it is I can't say.

I think I'll pass on the Wild Cohort feat- too many other fun things to use feats on! The Aegis class, however, looks very interesting. Why it has PP, I don't understand, but the abilities look nice. It would, however, prevent me from dumping Int. Decisions, decisions.

EDIT: Ah, Augment Suit and some of the customizations. That clears that up.


I remember seeing something on the PF SRD where there was an FAQ ruling or forum posting where they admitted that they had just gotten lazy and left it out of some entries, but that the general assumption is that class abilities that refer to level are referring to class level unless they specifically state otherwise.

I don't have the energy to go digging to find it, so I can't confirm it one way or another for you, but I wouldn't get my hopes up if I were you. PF's devs are not very multiclass friendly, that's why they made so many archetypes, I believe.

That would be most unfortunate (and really, really lazy on their part). It wouldn't really be broken if I used it as proposed, would it? Or would I have to live with 2 minutes/day on both abilities?

[JusticeZero]

Why it has PP, I don't understand, but the abilities look nice.
Aegis have an astral suit ability that lets them mount a power stone (a psionic scroll) and cast it from PP instead of consuming the item; they also use PP to fuel the Augment Suit ability to temporarily add extra features. Thus they have a PP pool. But they don't have any manifesting abilities of their own.

[Mr. Zolrane]

I know we said we're ignoring CHA but in case that decision gets overturned perhaps some Synthesist Summoner (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/summoner/archetypes/paizo---summoner-archetypes/synthesist) wouldn't hurt? I haven't looked closely enough at it, but I know it's more natural attacks so it's at least worth looking into. It will also free up your physical stats so needing mental stats isn't as bad.

[Coidzor]

That would be most unfortunate (and really, really lazy on their part). It wouldn't really be broken if I used it as proposed, would it? Or would I have to live with 2 minutes/day on both abilities?

Well, the hair certainly isn't going to mess with game balance.

And flight for minutes a day without witch spells is a lot less than witch spells without flight.

*shrug*

[grarrrg]

I know we said we're ignoring CHA but in case that decision gets overturned perhaps some Synthesist Summoner (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/summoner/archetypes/paizo---summoner-archetypes/synthesist) wouldn't hurt?

Quiet you!
Seriously though.
The build we're going for is so much more awesome due to the utter slapped-togetherness of it all.
The Synthesist Summoner is just too easy, you know?



What do you think of being a half-orc and taking the Witch Doctor archetype and the prehensile hair hex instead of the white-haired witch archetype? It requires an extra level, but I get Con to attack on the beard, and I can pick up the flight hex later with the extra hex feat*. I also get a few other goodies, extra spells, and can dump Int down the tubes.

I assume you are going Half-Orc for the Bite?

As mentioned, the default is "Class level unless specifically specified".
Discuss it with your DM though, maybe he'll let it slide.
(also keep in mind that he Witch claws are 1d3 Secondary, Aspect of Beast claws are 1d4 Primary).

My recommendation would still be Ranger 2 for the Claws.


Vivisectionist is looking sexy. What do you think of throwing Ragechemist and/or Internal Alchemist on top of that? I'm on the fence about the tentacles for flavor reasons, so I don't think I'd mind trading discoveries for bonus feats, and the idea of laying around looking dead is funny. I'd have to be careful about dumping Int with Ragechemist, though.

Internal Alchemist, sure, the Bonus feats are pretty handy.

Ragechemist? Friends don't let friends go Ragechemist...
(friends also don't let friends go Rage Prophet)

(you know what? just stay away from class options with "Rage" in the name)

As for your Alchemist Extracts, just say your 'ermit likes his moonshine, and he likes to flavor it up with various herbs and stuff he finds. Granted, sometimes he grabs a magical herb by mistake...
And he belches to 'cast' his 'spells'.


Then what? ... Any good prestige classes that would mesh with this?

If you do plan on getting to level 6+ of Barbarian (and depending on your campaign) you might find the World Serpent Spirit (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/rage-powers/paizo---rage-powers/world-serpent-spirit-su) totem rage power to be useful. It lets ALL of your weapons count as ALL alignments for bypassing DR (and some bonuses vs. Outsiders and Aberrations).

As for Prestige, the closest would be Master Chymist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/i-m/master-chymist), but that's only if you don't mind taking at least 7 levels of Alchemist.

[ArcanistSupreme]

Quiet you!
Seriously though.
The build we're going for is so much more awesome due to the utter slapped-togetherness of it all.
The Synthesist Summoner is just too easy, you know?

Exactly. :smalltongue:


I assume you are going Half-Orc for the Bite?

As mentioned, the default is "Class level unless specifically specified".
Discuss it with your DM though, maybe he'll let it slide.
(also keep in mind that he Witch claws are 1d3 Secondary, Aspect of Beast claws are 1d4 Primary).

My recommendation would still be Ranger 2 for the Claws.

I was going Half-Orc for the Witch Doctor Archetype to nab Con to hit/damage with the beard. The hex version also starts off with reach. The bite was a bonus. But with the restrictions on duration, I think I'm better off with the White-Haired Witch. So yeah, now I'm taking Half-Orc for the bite.


Internal Alchemist, sure, the Bonus feats are pretty handy.

Ragechemist? Friends don't let friends go Ragechemist...
(friends also don't let friends go Rage Prophet)

(you know what? just stay away from class options with "Rage" in the name)

Point taken.


If you do plan on getting to level 6+ of Barbarian (and depending on your campaign) you might find the World Serpent Spirit (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/rage-powers/paizo---rage-powers/world-serpent-spirit-su) totem rage power to be useful. It lets ALL of your weapons count as ALL alignments for bypassing DR (and some bonuses vs. Outsiders and Aberrations).

So now the build is looking like Freebooter Ranger 2/White-Haired Witch 1/Invulnerable Rager Barbarian 1/Internal Vivisectionist 4/Barbarian 4. It nets us +10 BAB, 1d4 helmet, 1d4 bite, 1d4 claw x2, and 1d4 beard, all usable as primary attacks (I'm going to need to invest in more d4s), 2d6 sneak attack, rage, and a smattering of other abilities. I could swap out a level of Alchemist for that 6th level of Barbarian, but I'd lose out on 2nd level extracts and a discovery (or a bonus feat from a somewhat limited list).

Both Aegis and Summoner could net me more attacks, but tentacles and stingers just don't fit the flavor for me. Maybe a slam attack? Can we get that anywhere? Summoner gets one, but "...the synthesist is still limited to the eidolon’s maximum number of natural attacks," which means no beard.

[Mr. Zolrane]

Both Aegis and Summoner could net me more attacks, but tentacles and stingers just don't fit the flavor for me. Maybe a slam attack? Can we get that anywhere? Summoner gets one, but "...the synthesist is still limited to the eidolon’s maximum number of natural attacks," which means no beard.

I'm going to call "not necessarily" on that last bit. I'm pretty sure all that means is that you are limited to a certain number of natural attacks that can be granted by the eidolon. NAs from other sources are still fair game; at least that's how I would rule it if I were your DM.

[ArcanistSupreme]

I'm going to call "not necessarily" on that last bit. I'm pretty sure all that means is that you are limited to a certain number of natural attacks that can be granted by the eidolon. NAs from other sources are still fair game; at least that's how I would rule it if I were your DM.

The wording from the slam evolution looks like it's either a claw on that arm OR a slam, but it's vague enough that I could see it either way. Thing is, I kinda want to surprise my DM with this build, so I'd rather have the ruling be ironclad so I can point to RAW if any discrepancies come up.

[grarrrg]

So now the build is looking like Freebooter Ranger 2/White-Haired Witch 1/Invulnerable Rager Barbarian 1/Internal Vivisectionist 4/Barbarian 4.

I'm assuming the Barbarian 4 is Barb+4.
Granted, you don't have to actually worry about this until/unless you hit level 12, but....
Invulnerable Ragers really don't get anything special at level 5, other than the +Rounds of Rage.
None of your other classes gain much from +1 level...
Something to think about.


It nets us +10 BAB, 1d4 helmet, 1d4 bite, 1d4 claw x2, and 1d4 beard, all usable as primary attacks

I'm with you one everything, except just to clarify on the "primary attacks" part. If you do not use your Helmet attack during a round, then they would all be Primary attacks, using Full Bab.
If you DO use your Helmet, then all Natural Attacks are instantly considered Secondaries for the round and take a -2 penalty to-hit (-5 without the Multiattack feat).

Still plenty worth it though, when you can have 4 natural attacks and 2 manufactured attacks (iterative!)


Both Aegis and Summoner could net me more attacks, but tentacles and stingers just don't fit the flavor for me. Maybe a slam attack? Can we get that anywhere? Summoner gets one, but "...the synthesist is still limited to the eidolon’s maximum number of natural attacks," which means no beard.
The wording from the slam evolution looks like it's either a claw on that arm OR a slam, but it's vague enough that I could see it either way. Thing is, I kinda want to surprise my DM with this build, so I'd rather have the ruling be ironclad so I can point to RAW if any discrepancies come up.

Ask your DM before doing ANYTHING Synthesist.
How "Eidolon natural attacks" stack with "granted" natural attacks is VERY up in the air, and one of those things that Paizo is very likely _NOT_ inclined to make a ruling on, and here's (partly) why:

The Eidolon-suit _physically_ replaces your body. Logically, anything that is/was dependent on your physical form is now gone.
So a Catfolk with Claws presumably would lose its Cat-Claws, as they were part of the 'replaced' body.
But what if someone takes 2 levels of Ranger and the Aspect of the Beast feat? Well, you keep your feats (and other class levels) when you go 'Eidolon Suit', so you'd probably keep your Feat-Claws, UNLESS its ruled the claws were a part of your 'replaced' body. So no Feat-Claws then.
But what if you take (at least) 1 level of Dragon Blood Sorcerer? You gain the ability to magically grow Claws. Does your 'Eidolon-Suit' get to grow claws then? Logically they should, because the Claws were in no way a "physical" part of your body.

That's as far as I'm taking this discussion...long story short, if you are planning on playing a Synthesist you _MUST_ talk to your DM.

[ArcanistSupreme]

I'm assuming the Barbarian 4 is Barb+4.
Granted, you don't have to actually worry about this until/unless you hit level 12, but....
Invulnerable Ragers really don't get anything special at level 5, other than the +Rounds of Rage.
None of your other classes gain much from +1 level...
Something to think about.

Perhaps Pain Taster (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/n-r/pain-taster)? Hermits get a little weird in the head, after all.


I'm with you one everything, except just to clarify on the "primary attacks" part. If you do not use your Helmet attack during a round, then they would all be Primary attacks, using Full Bab.
If you DO use your Helmet, then all Natural Attacks are instantly considered Secondaries for the round and take a -2 penalty to-hit (-5 without the Multiattack feat).

Still plenty worth it though, when you can have 4 natural attacks and 2 manufactured attacks (iterative!)

It's me not quite understanding primary vs. secondary attacks. To clarify, will his final full attack routine be Helmet +10/+5 and all others at +8?


Ask your DM before doing ANYTHING Synthesist.

Eh, not worth it when I'm having this much fun with the build as is.

[grarrrg]

Perhaps Pain Taster (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/n-r/pain-taster)? Hermits get a little weird in the head, after all.

Pain Taster is a little TOO weird, and has too many "stinker" feats are requirements.
May as well stick with Barbarian, or throw a level of Fighter in there for the Feat.


It's me not quite understanding primary vs. secondary attacks. To clarify, will his final full attack routine be Helmet +10/+5 and all others at +8?

Assuming 10 Bab, then yes, you've got it right.

Link (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/universal-monster-rules#TOC-Natural-Attacks).
If all you have/use are Natural Attacks, then Primaries use Full Bab, and Secondaries use Bab-5.
If you use a Manufactured weapon and _any_ natural attacks, then ALL naturals are considered Secondary attacks and take the -5 to-hit.
BUT if you take the Multiattack feat, it reduces Secondary penalties to only -2 to-hit.

You've got Clawsx2, Beard, and Bite, all Primary.
WithOUT the Helmet, and +10 Bab, it'd be:
+10/+10/+10/+10
WITH the Helmet, +10 Bab (and the Multiattack feat), it'd be:
+10/+8/+8/+8/+8/+5
(with the Helmet being the +10 and the +5)


Eh, not worth it when I'm having this much fun with the build as is.

True...true...
Just to be perfectly honest, I came up with the core of this build a good 9-ish months ago...
Got a similar reaction (follow link, read the next post down)
LINK! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13926231#post13926231)

EDIT:
Almost forgot!
Your Witch level gives you a Familiar (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/familiar)!
Keep in mind, even though you only have 1 level of Witch, your Familiar still uses your FULL Bab and (half) of your Full HP as base-stats.

[ArcanistSupreme]

Pain Taster is a little TOO weird, and has too many "stinker" feats are requirements.
May as well stick with Barbarian, or throw a level of Fighter in there for the Feat.

Yeah, it fit better with the Witch Doctor archetype anyway.


Assuming 10 Bab, then yes, you've got it right.

Huzzah!


True...true...
Just to be perfectly honest, I came up with the core of this build a good 9-ish months ago...
Got a similar reaction (follow link, read the next post down)
LINK! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13926231#post13926231)

Doesn't stop me from having fun with it/rediscovering everything you've already done! :smalltongue:


EDIT:
Almost forgot!
Your Witch level gives you a Familiar (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/familiar)!
Keep in mind, even though you only have 1 level of Witch, your Familiar still uses your FULL Bab and (half) of your Full HP as base-stats.

Hey, a flanking buddy! And for once, my low witch level comes in handy by making it cheap to replace the little guy. Are there any ways to pump my caster level so I can pick up Improved Familiar?

[grarrrg]

Doesn't stop me from having fun with it/rediscovering everything you've already done! :smalltongue:

Eh, there are enough builds that get cycled around, it's about time this one sees use. :)

I'm OK with this one not getting a lot of attention though. It is somewhat similar to the Synthesist after all.

And I did come up with two other builds that get quite a bit of discussion/play (Gundolon/Oradin).


Hey, a flanking buddy! And for once, my low witch level comes in handy by making it cheap to replace the little guy. Are there any ways to pump my caster level so I can pick up Improved Familiar?

Not without tanking/dumping something else.

More levels of Witch is the easiest option, but after level 2 you start dropping Bab.

Boon Companion can count you as (up to) 4 levels higher, that would allow you to pick from the 5th level and lower Improved options.
Doing this would also give you the option of adding an Alignment Template to a 'basic' familiar. Celestial, Entropic, Fiendish, Resolute.

[ArcanistSupreme]

Not without tanking/dumping something else.

More levels of Witch is the easiest option, but after level 2 you start dropping Bab.

Boon Companion can count you as (up to) 4 levels higher, that would allow you to pick from the 5th level and lower Improved options.
Doing this would also give you the option of adding an Alignment Template to a 'basic' familiar. Celestial, Entropic, Fiendish, Resolute.

Due to the fact that this DM is letting us take 2 flaws from 3.5 (bwahahahaha), I have a couple of feats to burn. I'm thinking the flaws will go to Boon Companion and Improved Familiar. I need a companion that is at least small size so it can threaten, and that is either a donkey rat (blah), a dire rat (meh), a pig (humorous but no), a seal (...), or a small elemental. And the winner is: Elemental. So then I have to decide between the following:

Air (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/elemental/elemental-air/small-air-elemental): flying, whirlwind to get rid of nasty swarms and the like, whirlwind for concealment
Gravity (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/elemental/elemental-gravity-tohc/gravity-elemental-small-tohc): flying, ranged attacks, (admittedly weak) battlefield control, a way to permanently dispose of any object tiny or smaller
Mud (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/elemental/elemental-mud/small-mud-elemental): earth glide, burrow, entrap (weak DC, but it's bound to hit twice in a row eventually)
Positive Energy (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/elemental/elemental-positive-energy-tohc/positive-energy-elemental-small-tohc): flying, unlimited healing (tell it to deal nonlethal with it's slam), little combat or other utility other than providing flanking
Psionic (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/elemental/elemental-psionic-tohc/psionic-elemental-small-tohc): flying, durable, PLAs, telepathy


That's a pretty fun list; I'm leaning toward gravity and psionic, but I could go any direction (and mud fits the dirty hermit theme).

[grarrrg]

Air (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/elemental/elemental-air/small-air-elemental): flying, whirlwind to get rid of nasty swarms and the like, whirlwind for concealment
Gravity (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/elemental/elemental-gravity-tohc/gravity-elemental-small-tohc): flying, ranged attacks, (admittedly weak) battlefield control, a way to permanently dispose of any object tiny or smaller
Mud (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/elemental/elemental-mud/small-mud-elemental): earth glide, burrow, entrap (weak DC, but it's bound to hit twice in a row eventually)
Positive Energy (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/elemental/elemental-positive-energy-tohc/positive-energy-elemental-small-tohc): flying, unlimited healing (tell it to deal nonlethal with it's slam), little combat or other utility other than providing flanking
Psionic (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/elemental/elemental-psionic-tohc/psionic-elemental-small-tohc): flying, durable, PLAs, telepathy


That's a pretty fun list; I'm leaning toward gravity and psionic, but I could go any direction (and mud fits the dirty hermit theme).

If you didn't notice, the Gravity, Positive Energy, and Psionic are all 3rd party.
I'd probably go with the Air overall, good AC, great DEX, Flyby Attack can be useful to keep it alive (doesn't help you Flank then though).

[Doorhandle]

If you're doing more barbarians, here's some gems from from the rage powers lists:

Beast totem eventually leads to pounce and gives you claws/natural armour, but you have those already.

Fiend totem rage power gets you a gore attack, as well as spikes and an aura that will make good beings regret standing near you.

Sprit totem gives you a slam attack but it's cha-based and not too useful to you.

Animal fury gives you a bite attack, greater hive totem makes it poisonous.

And lesser/greater elemental fury could be worth it on enemies that aren't resistant to energy attacks, due to the sheer number of hits.

[grarrrg]

If you're doing more barbarians, here's some gems from from the rage powers lists:

Beast totem eventually leads to pounce and gives you claws/natural armour, but you have those already.

Fiend totem rage power gets you a gore attack, as well as spikes and an aura that will make good beings regret standing near you.

Sprit totem gives you a slam attack but it's cha-based and not too useful to you.

Animal fury gives you a bite attack, greater hive totem makes it poisonous.

And lesser/greater elemental fury could be worth it on enemies that aren't resistant to energy attacks, due to the sheer number of hits.

Sadly, most of the better ones require at least 10 levels of Barbarian and/or duplicate things we already have (and we do need to have the Claws and such permanently in order to take the Multiattack feat).

Lesser Fiend Totem for the Gore would be nice, although the DM may call "baloney" on the Head getting a Helmet, Bite, Beard, AND Gore attack.

Hive Totem _might_ be useful, if it didn't require 2 cruddy powers.

I did think about suggesting the Lesser Spirit power, but the low CHA absolutely kills it.

Elemental Rage (not so much the lesser version) seems quite handy, but the 8 Barbarian req is pretty harsh.

[ArcanistSupreme]

If you didn't notice, the Gravity, Positive Energy, and Psionic are all 3rd party.
I'd probably go with the Air overall, good AC, great DEX, Flyby Attack can be useful to keep it alive (doesn't help you Flank then though).

Oh, bummer. Psionic is at least Dreamscarred Press, right? They are often more balanced than Paizo (or at least aware of balance), aren't they? Although I could see that not going over well, especially since the GM is unfamiliar with psionics. Ho hum.


If you're doing more barbarians, here's some gems from from the rage powers lists:

Beast totem eventually leads to pounce and gives you claws/natural armour, but you have those already.

Fiend totem rage power gets you a gore attack, as well as spikes and an aura that will make good beings regret standing near you.

Sprit totem gives you a slam attack but it's cha-based and not too useful to you.

Animal fury gives you a bite attack, greater hive totem makes it poisonous.

And lesser/greater elemental fury could be worth it on enemies that aren't resistant to energy attacks, due to the sheer number of hits.

All of these are great, but I agree with grarrrg that the build doesn't have much room for more barbarian. I might try to squeeze the gore attack in, though.

[JusticeZero]

Psionic is at least Dreamscarred Press, right?..the GM is unfamiliar with psionics. Ho hum.Yep, Dreamscarred. No first party psionics - though apparently they made some "yeah someday we should get around to doing that, and it should look like (insert unappealing and lame ideas here)" statements at some point.
Psionics gets a bad rap for some reason.. it really is just a nicely balanced alternative spellcaster system that just doesn't use the specific word "magic". It fits into a fantasy setting exactly as well as clerics, barbarians, wizards, druids, sorcerers, and bards do - none of those are universal to fantasy, and psions, etc resemble a whole lot of fantasy magic users from fiction and myth.

[ArcanistSupreme]

Yep, Dreamscarred. No first party psionics - though apparently they made some "yeah someday we should get around to doing that, and it should look like (insert unappealing and lame ideas here)" statements at some point.
Psionics gets a bad rap for some reason.. it really is just a nicely balanced alternative spellcaster system that just doesn't use the specific word "magic". It fits into a fantasy setting exactly as well as clerics, barbarians, wizards, druids, sorcerers, and bards do - none of those are universal to fantasy, and psions, etc resemble a whole lot of fantasy magic users from fiction and myth.

I think he'd be more turned off by the fact that it's a subsystem that he never bothered to learn than anything. I don't think he's done enough reading to be biased one way or the other.