D&D 3.5: Removing Racial Hit Dice

[Kevingway]

Hey everyone! It's my first post here, so go easy on me. :P

So I'm brainstorming a fun idea for something I really want to try, but I run into the problem of this particular templated creature starting off with 2 Racial HD. If I were to remove one of the Racial HD (via Necropolitan or some other way), I would drop down to 1 Racial HD, which would then allow me to swap it out for a class level. However, I've been told that this can only be done from level 1, rather than mid-campaign. Is this true?

If so, I feel it would be much harder to lose both of them to make this race acceptable for me to play. Is there some other means of losing these Hit Dice, assuming I can't pull from Dragon Magazine, campaign setting-specific material, or web enhancements? Homebrew isn't allowed either, and I'm assuming I wouldn't be allowed to ninja Necropolitan into my character's backstory before starting play (and I'm not exactly sure how that would work to begin with in regard to swapping the HD for a class level if my character was "in play" to acquire the template, to then have two class levels immediately).

I also can't say that I magically obtained negative levels from a wizard or something when starting play to then say that I only have a single class level and no HD. It either has to be some sort of special trick I can do at level 1 that would involve no "outside help" to remove both of these HD (if that makes sense), or something I can plan to do later in the campaign.

Thanks!

Edit--Main Questions:

1. Regardless of level, how could two racial HD be removed permanently without relying so much on "outside help" to do so, as a non-caster?

2. How does Dragonwrought interact with racial HD, assuming a template forces your base creature to take two racial HD before becoming the Dragon type? The FAQ indicates that the source of the "type change" must specify that the base saves/BAB change when applied. Dragonwrought doesn't say that anything changes, so they wouldn't. One problem solved! :)

3. Do you actually start play with any experience as a result of having 2 Racial "levels"? Or do you start off at 0 like with Level Adjustments?

4. If losing the two Racial HD you start with, what do you do about your first-level feat eligibility + your multiplied skill points? Do you move these over to your first class level and its skill points or do you lose all of your entitled x4 skills?

[Phelix-Mu]

...snip!...

Hi there,

There are examples of immature creatures for races with high racial HD/LA combos; this would be roughly equivalent to only taking one level in this monster's monster class, if it has one published for it. You could see if there is one out there for this critter, or get your DM to homebrew one. It would be weird, fluff-wise, though, cause most immature critters mature at some point...oh, but necropolitan takes care of that.:smallsmile:

Ur-Priest may weigh in. His advice on this matter is generally sterling, and he has a handbook linked in his sig that is worth reading.

It might be helpful to know exactly what race you are talking about.

[thethird]

You can level drain yourself to lose them. Use a scroll or somesuch.

[Kevingway]

Thanks for the tip! I have gone through Ur Priest's handbook before (which I definitely have to thank him for writing!), but he specifically mentioned that the cheese for this sort of thing isn't suited to his purposes for having written it. :P

The creature I have in mind is a Tauric Kobold-Phynxkin. I'll be taking the Dragonwrought feat (of course) at level 1, which changes me from Monstrous Humanoid to Dragon (which adds further complications to what the heck sort of benefits I should have from my two racial HD, also a strong reason for my wanting to get rid of them ASAP).

I start off with 2 Racial HD and a +3 Level Adjustment for doing this.

[Flickerdart]

You can't apply Necropolitan before level 1 (you'd die), and negative levels can be applied whenever, so whoever told you that was wrong. Easiest way would be to find or be a 4th level evil cleric and command a Wight.

[Kevingway]

But when starting with two levels of... Monstrous Humanoid? Dragon? Heck, I don't know--wouldn't that keep me from dying? Though I suppose I'm unsure whether I actually have an accumulated experience of sorts at ECL 3 (not counting LA) or if I just have those HD "levels" with no experience attached. I'm assuming I actually have experience, since HD is a bit more interactive than mere level adjustments.

Regardless, Necropolitan at level 1 isn't something I'd be happy doing, for my own personal sake.

[Kevingway]

No love for my monstrous creation? :P

[Blackhawk748]

i believe, since your type is Dragon now, that you would get Dragon HD. Then again thats me guessing and saying what i think would make sense (and this is DnD so how often does that work?) and if it is Dragon HD you get, id say keep them, their pretty good, Full BaB, d12 HD, decent skills, and i believe all good saves (i think)

[Phelix-Mu]

Well, I'm interested to know where you are going with this...kobold-taur? I assume there is some plan behind this...not a lot of people go necropolitan for the visuals, and kobold-taur is esoteric, for sure.

I agree that your monstrous humanoid HD, from the tauric creature template, turn into dragon HD. If Savage Species is ruled to be valid (it's part of the 3.0-3.5 Interregnum), then I believe we can refer to the template pyramid, and dragon is closer to the top, and thus is the final creature type. I have heard people say that the template pyramid was ditched in 3.5, but don't know enough about the matter to speak with any authority.

Dragon HD are good for pretty much anyone besides a caster. Best HD in the game, full BAB, all good saves (+3 to all by second level is excellent, especially considering your final Fort may be quite terrible), and 6+Int.Mod. skill points. An important issue, however, is to nail down what skill list you can choose these initial skill points from. If DWK is ruled to be a true dragon, there is a very attractive list of class skills for all true dragons in the Monster Manual entry on dragons. I don't know about the kobold skill list, but it stands to be terrible.

[Kevingway]

Haha. Well, my plan is simply to have a creature that has a fully-awakened draconic heritage due to both sides of its odd lineage (playing it off as an ancient creature) having this same bloodline running through it (hence Dragonwrought).

Ultimately, my idea is to "nerf" the Kobold somewhat, still giving it benefits due to the template (and possibly template stacking the creature to utilize other loopholes), but actually giving this otherwise broken race a level adjustment and Racial HD to work through that I have to try and overcome via some tricks I hope to pick up from here and simply playing it out a bit weaker than the rest of the group (not going to go sorcerer and cause the ragequits).

Envisioning this creature has simply been amazing, since both sides would have the same color of scales and the Kobold is small enough to actually use the feline portion as a body without it looking ridiculous. In fact, I say it looks better than a normal centaur!

But my nerding out aside, the Tauric template specifically states which portions I draw my saves, my BAB, and the type of HD (d8's) from. Would Dragonwrought override this template's requirements? These things aren't necessarily coming from levels of Monstrous Humanoid (which seems to only apply to my skills), but rather the template's completely specific points of origin stemming from whichever of the two base creatures has the "better stuff."

Edit: Answered this one for myself once I started looking through the FAQ. :) Nothing would change as a result of Dragonwrought, since Dragonwrought doesn't specify that anything changes as a result of the change in type.

[Urpriest]

Thanks for the tip! I have gone through Ur Priest's handbook before (which I definitely have to thank him for writing!), but he specifically mentioned that the cheese for this sort of thing isn't suited to his purposes for having written it. :P

The creature I have in mind is a Tauric Kobold-Phynxkin. I'll be taking the Dragonwrought feat (of course) at level 1, which changes me from Monstrous Humanoid to Dragon (which adds further complications to what the heck sort of benefits I should have from my two racial HD, also a strong reason for my wanting to get rid of them ASAP).

I start off with 2 Racial HD and a +3 Level Adjustment for doing this.

Ok, let's try an analysis of this situation:

You start out as a Tauric Kobold-Phynxkin. I'm not sure where you're getting the +3 level adjustment from, since the closest existing guideline in the template says +2. 2RHD are correct, anyway, and they initially are Monstrous Humanoid HD.

It's arguable whether you're able to take Dragonwrought. The feat requires Kobold, rather than any specific subtype. It's unclear whether a Tauric Kobold-Phynxkin is also a Kobold.

If you do take it, the Dragonwrought feat doesn't give you the Augmented Subtype (it probably should, but its creators didn't bargain on Kobolds with RHD existing), so all your RHD do indeed become Dragon RHD. While you could argue that Dragonwrought gives you access to True Dragon class skills, the same argument would give you access to everything else in the True Dragon entry, and that would get silly fast, so you really should only get Phynxkin class skills.

If you take Dragonwrought, you absolutely cannot be a Necropolitan. Dragonwrought must be taken at first level, and makes you a Dragon, while Necropolitan is applied after first level and requires Humanoid or Monstrous Humanoid.

If you don't take Dragonwrought, the question becomes when you can take Necropolitan. Necropolitan takes away a level or RHD, then an additional 1,000XP. As a Tauric Kobold-Phynxkin, you start life with 6,000XP. If you do the ritual right then, you lose a level or HD, going to the XP total midway between your previous level and your current one, so you now have one racial hit die and two LA giving ECL 3 with 4500 XP. You then lose another thousand XP, and if that makes you lose a level you do so. You don't, however. You go down to 3500XP, with one RHD and two LA.

You could of course do similar things with Energy Drain from a Wight or similar with less loss of XP and while maintaining Dragonwrought.

Now that you've only got one RHD, the question becomes whether you can "trade it out". According to the Monsters as Races rules, a monsters with one or fewer RHD must start the game with one or more class levels, but applying that for a one-RHD that's not "traded out" seems silly. This place is also the only part of the rules that mentions starting the game a particular way, so arguably you should be able to "trade out" an RHD whenever you only have one, even if it's later in the game. This feels a bit sillier, though, and definitely lives in "ask your DM, and make sure you yourself are comfortable with the idea" territory.

[Kevingway]

Ok, let's try an analysis of this situation:

You start out as a Tauric Kobold-Phynxkin. I'm not sure where you're getting the +3 level adjustment from, since the closest existing guideline in the template says +2. 2RHD are correct, anyway, and they initially are Monstrous Humanoid HD.

The +3 Level Adjustment comes from the errata for Monster Manual 2 (more specifically, the 3.5 Update Manual)--the entry states that the LA of the Tauric template is "Base Humanoid +3," which also by RAW (and other opinions that I've read feel the same way) means that any LA attached to the beast portion of the merger doesn't count toward the final Tauric LA.


It's arguable whether you're able to take Dragonwrought. The feat requires Kobold, rather than any specific subtype. It's unclear whether a Tauric Kobold-Phynxkin is also a Kobold.

Since Tauric is just a template, I'm assuming I would still qualify for Kobold. In that regard it doesn't seem like it'd be different from any other template, only I'm adding another creature into the base stats.


If you do take it, the Dragonwrought feat doesn't give you the Augmented Subtype (it probably should, but its creators didn't bargain on Kobolds with RHD existing), so all your RHD do indeed become Dragon RHD. While you could argue that Dragonwrought gives you access to True Dragon class skills, the same argument would give you access to everything else in the True Dragon entry, and that would get silly fast, so you really should only get Phynxkin class skills.

I don't really believe in the True Dragon bit for Kobolds. All of the arguments for it that I've read seem to neglect that the whole "advance through age categories" portion refers to dragons literally advancing, as with levels, through age categories to get stronger, not just getting a bonus to their stats for doing so.

As for the RHD, the FAQ I just read stated this:


"A PC with racial Hit Dice (such as a centaur) gains base attack and save bonuses from his racial HD as well as any class levels he has. If such a character’s type changes, his base attack and saves change only if the source of the change indicates that they change. Some templates (such as the vampire template) stipulate that base attack and saves remain the same regardless of the change."

My only issue is that I'm not sure what I would do with my skill points, as this section doesn't specifically mention those. That, and the "applying of feats" portion of leveling up a character comes last, so I'd have already gotten my base saves, BAB, skills, etc. before applying the Dragonwrought feat, if doing it how I think it's supposed to be done. May be a first-level exception.


If you take Dragonwrought, you absolutely cannot be a Necropolitan. Dragonwrought must be taken at first level, and makes you a Dragon, while Necropolitan is applied after first level and requires Humanoid or Monstrous Humanoid.

Gotcha. :)


You could of course do similar things with Energy Drain from a Wight or similar with less loss of XP and while maintaining Dragonwrought.

That actually leads me to another question: What would happen to my first-level feats/flaws if I were to lose those two racial HD? Your statement has me a bit worried.


Now that you've only got one RHD, the question becomes whether you can "trade it out". According to the Monsters as Races rules, a monsters with one or fewer RHD must start the game with one or more class levels, but applying that for a one-RHD that's not "traded out" seems silly. This place is also the only part of the rules that mentions starting the game a particular way, so arguably you should be able to "trade out" an RHD whenever you only have one, even if it's later in the game. This feels a bit sillier, though, and definitely lives in "ask your DM, and make sure you yourself are comfortable with the idea" territory.

I think the safe assumption would be that I would retain the 1 Racial Hit Dice and be unable to trade it. Thinking more on the matter, the DMG uses an example of a creature that has only 1 Racial Hit Dice (in the monsters as players section) in the calculating of the ECL, when in the very same section it would have clearly traded out that HD at an earlier point in time. So this thing would exist with just one HD. At least that's how I'm justifying it.

And thanks for the reply! :)

[Urpriest]

The +3 Level Adjustment comes from the errata for Monster Manual 2 (more specifically, the 3.5 Update Manual)--the entry states that the LA of the Tauric template is "Base Humanoid +3," which also by RAW (and other opinions that I've read feel the same way) means that any LA attached to the beast portion of the merger doesn't count toward the final Tauric LA.

Interesting. Savage Species was a later source than MM2, but I suppose the 3.5 update is a later source altogether, so I guess in the end that's the correct value.




Since Tauric is just a template, I'm assuming I would still qualify for Kobold. In that regard it doesn't seem like it'd be different from any other template, only I'm adding another creature into the base stats.

That's the thing, it's unclear what any template does to Race. Race (and race-based prerequisites) are just completely under-defined in 3.5.




I don't really believe in the True Dragon bit for Kobolds. All of the arguments for it that I've read seem to neglect that the whole "advance through age categories" portion refers to dragons literally advancing, as with levels, through age categories to get stronger, not just getting a bonus to their stats for doing so.

As for the RHD, the FAQ I just read stated this:

That FAQ isn't really RAW-supported, but it does match how various things are applied in practice in the rules. They really should make more use of the Augmented Subtype for these sorts of things though, it's a great rules solution and they had it from the beginning of 3.5 specifically for situations like this.




My only issue is that I'm not sure what I would do with my skill points, as this section doesn't specifically mention those. That, and the "applying of feats" portion of leveling up a character comes last, so I'd have already gotten my base saves, BAB, skills, etc. before applying the Dragonwrought feat, if doing it how I think it's supposed to be done. May be a first-level exception.

The FAQ isn't RAW. That means that there's really no reason to treat anything in it literally, since it's not literal rules text, it's just an interpretation. With that in mind, if you think the FAQ has justification for its claim then the same claim should be justified for skills.

As for order, there's no reason that your BAB and saves can't be changed retroactively, and indeed that's precisely what that feat would do.




That actually leads me to another question: What would happen to my first-level feats/flaws if I were to lose those two racial HD? Your statement has me a bit worried.

If you lost both RHD (without doing some sort of "trade-in" trick) then you just die, full stop. So don't do that.




I think the safe assumption would be that I would retain the 1 Racial Hit Dice and be unable to trade it. Thinking more on the matter, the DMG uses an example of a creature that has only 1 Racial Hit Dice (in the monsters as players section) in the calculating of the ECL, when in the very same section it would have clearly traded out that HD at an earlier point in time. So this thing would exist with just one HD. At least that's how I'm justifying it.

And thanks for the reply! :)

Huh. That example is very weird, since with it the section goes from "either add class levels to LA, or add class levels to RHD to LA" to "either add class levels to RHD to LA, or add class levels to RHD to LA".

[Kevingway]

If you lost both RHD (without doing some sort of "trade-in" trick) then you just die, full stop. So don't do that.

Really? Even if I still had class levels? Interesting. How else could I trade them in, though? I don't suppose there's a level-equivalent chaos shuffle for these purposes?


Huh. That example is very weird, since with it the section goes from "either add class levels to LA, or add class levels to RHD to LA" to "either add class levels to RHD to LA, or add class levels to RHD to LA".

Yeah I'm stumped. But it works, I guess. They probably weren't thinking about it too hard when they wrote that out, being just for demonstration purposes, but eh.

[Flickerdart]

Really? Even if I still had class levels? Interesting. How else could I trade them in, though? I don't suppose there's a level-equivalent chaos shuffle for these purposes?
You cannot lose your RHD but keep class levels. RHD always go first (except in cases when they are added on afterwards, like lycanthropes), and level drain always shaves off later levels first.