3.5: What is the earlier level a Wizard can qualify for Swift Blade?

[INoKnowNames]

Assuming BAB isn't an issue, Skills and Feat Requirements make it seem like one could potentially qualify at 3th Level for a 4th Level Swiftblade 1. But it seems to note that you need to be able to cast Haste form 3rd Level Spells, given that Special Requirement, rather than just being able to cast Haste.

Given that, what is the earliest a Wizard would be able to access Level 3 Spells in a build? The PBP has them starting those spell levels at 5th Level, meaning a Wizard-5/Swift-Blade at the earliest, but I wonder if it's possible to do it before that.

Any suggestions?

[Soras Teva Gee]

Entry Requirements

Base Attack Bonus: +3.
Skills: Concentration 6 ranks, Spellcraft 6 ranks.
Spellcasting: Ability to cast haste.
Feats: Dodge, Mobility.
Weapon Proficiency: Must be proficient with at least one martial weapon.
Special: Must have spent the entire previous level using all 3rd level spell slots to exclusively cast haste.

And you plan to get around all of those how exactly?

[Eslin]

Four levels of human cleric, time and war domains, dodge, mobility and mad faith. And name him wizard.

[eggynack]

Well, just at a basic level, skill points set a really hard base for prerequisites, and BAB is pretty similar in that regard. Thus, you're going to need at least three levels to enter swiftblade. I actually don't think this one can be entered early, at least not without extreme cheese. I think that most caster early entry tricks are feat heavy, and this class is also feat heavy. The combination means that this'll take more chessery chops than I can bring to the table. With flaws, you can start to work around it. You can get like five feats at first level that way. I think the BAB might actually be the strictest requirement here.You probably need at least one actual caster level, and that sets you back a whole BAB right there. That means the the build has to get there at level four, and that probably requires getting 3rd level spells when you should only have 1st.

Ya know, I'm actually inclined to think that battle sorcerer might help with this. After the first lost point of BAB, you advance up to +3 at level 4. You also get that free martial weapon proficiency, which crosses another prerequisite off the list. The feat prerequisites leaves us with two feats, because I don't think this is doable on a human. I think that you can use the whole loredrake dragonwrought kobold thing to get 3rd level spells by that point, and I think that the remaining feats are enough to do it. Thus, I'm laying a preliminary claim to entry at level 5, unless I've missed something. I think it all adds up correctly though.

[INoKnowNames]

And you plan to get around all of those how exactly?

I'd have started the thread with that, but I don't want to chance someone seeing something they shouldn't. I -can- say that this isn't Theoretical Op, at the least. I intend to actually use it in a game, at least once I decide if I want to keep going into another Prestige Class after Swiftblade 9 or just plug in more Arcane Caster Levels.


Four levels of human cleric, time and war domains, dodge, mobility and mad faith. And name him wizard.

Since Clerics cast Divine Spells and Swiftblade advances Arcane Casting, "name him wizard" doesn't exactly cover it. Plus, the less bonus rules and such needed, the better, so I'm not exactly interested in figuring out Taint.


Well, just at a basic level, skill points set a really hard base for prerequisites, and BAB is pretty similar in that regard. Thus, you're going to need at least three levels to enter swiftblade. I actually don't think this one can be entered early, at least not without extreme cheese. I think that most caster early entry tricks are feat heavy, and this class is also feat heavy. The combination means that this'll take more chessery chops than I can bring to the table. With flaws, you can start to work around it. You can get like five feats at first level that way. I think the BAB might actually be the strictest requirement here.You probably need at least one actual caster level, and that sets you back a whole BAB right there. That means the the build has to get there at level four, and that probably requires getting 3rd level spells when you should only have 1st.

Ya know, I'm actually inclined to think that battle sorcerer might help with this. After the first lost point of BAB, you advance up to +3 at level 4. You also get that free martial weapon proficiency, which crosses another prerequisite off the list. The feat prerequisites leaves us with two feats, because I don't think this is doable on a human. I think that you can use the whole loredrake dragonwrought kobold thing to get 3rd level spells by that point, and I think that the remaining feats are enough to do it. Thus, I'm laying a preliminary claim to entry at level 5, unless I've missed something. I think it all adds up correctly though.

Brief reminder:


Base Attack Bonus: +3.
Skills: Concentration 6 ranks, Spellcraft 6 ranks.
Spellcasting: Ability to cast haste.
Feats: Dodge, Mobility.
Weapon Proficiency: Must be proficient with at least one martial weapon.
Special: Must have spent the entire previous level using all 3rd level spell slots to exclusively cast haste.

The Bolded are a -non- issue. The only thing I need to figure out is casting Haste out of 3rd Level Spell Slots, and for an Arcane Caster.

[TiaC]

Brief reminder:



The Bolded are a -non- issue. The only thing I need to figure out is casting Haste out of 3rd Level Spell Slots, and for an Arcane Caster.
If you have no 3rd level slots then you can't have cast any spell that isn't Haste out of them.

[INoKnowNames]

If you have no 3rd level slots then you can't have cast any spell that isn't Haste out of them.

And that's kinda the problem I'm seeking to figure out: How soon can I snatch 3rd Level Slots on an Arcane Caster?

[Saintheart]

Precocious Apprentice, same way to qualify early for Dread Witch?

[INoKnowNames]

Precocious Apprentice, same way to qualify early for Dread Witch?

I fail to see how being able to get a single second level spellslot grants me the 3rd Level Slot needed to cast Haste...

[thethird]

You could be a trapsmith, which gets haste as a first level spell, but of course that won't be a "wizard".

[INoKnowNames]

You could be a trapsmith, which gets haste as a first level spell, but of course that won't be a "wizard".

Unless I'm reading the wrong trapsmith, skill requirements getting into it means I'd sooner get into Swiftblade, if i remember right. And it technically still violates the Special Requirement of casting them from 3rd Level Slots.

[ArcturusV]

Well, it says you must use all 3rd level spell slots to cast Haste. Well, if you had zero spell slots, and cast all of zero Hastes out of third level spell slots, and did not cast anything else out of a third level spell slot... I'd think that'd qualify. Kinda cheesily, but there's probably a Rules Lawyerese case to be made there. 100% of your 0 spell slots were Haste. And 0% of your 0 spell slots were not haste.

[Jigokuro]

If having 3rd level slots and haste is somehow the only issue, and not the, say, hard limit of lvl 3 to have 6 ranks in a skill, then you can have that at level 1...
You can have 9ths at level 1...
O.k. Most DMs would ban the above level of cheese, but not all.

Let's see if I can slap together parts of it to just get to 3rds.
0. Have flaw(s) allowed (1 for human/SHH, 2 for anything else)
1. Be a Domain Wizard and pick Transmutation domain
2. Take PA feat.
3. Take Alacritous Cogitation feat.
4. Take Versatile Spellcaster feat.
5. Go buy/scribe haste* into your spellbook.
Then these interactions occur:
-PA gives a 2nd level slot that can only have one [chosen] spell cast from it.
--Domain Wiz gives an extra 2nd level slot that can only have one [domain] spell cast from it.
-Leave both of those slots unprepared.
-Use VS to sac your domain slot and PA slot to cast haste.
--Domain slot for 3rd opens.
From then on each day you have these spells:
1sts: Normal + Expeditious Retreat (domain)
2nds: PA spell + Levitate (domain)
3rds: Haste (domain)
Which sets you good to go on having haste and casting only it this whole level (level 1).
But yeh, BAB=3 means the min is 2** and skills=6 means it is 3. Period.

*You have to use haste here, not any other spell, or you'll've cast some other 3rd level spell this level.
**Absurd cheese.

Edit: In any event, including not having flaws allowed, the tools here would allow hastes at 3rd for a human wiz, leaving only BAB as a (apparently non-)issue.

[Emperor Tippy]

If having 3rd level slots and haste is somehow the only issue, and not the, say, hard limit of lvl 3 to have 6 ranks in a skill, then you can have that at level 1...
You can have 9ths at level 1...
O.k. Most DMs would ban the above level of cheese, but not all.

Let's see if I can slap together parts of it to just get to 3rds.
0. Have flaw(s) allowed (1 for human/SHH, 2 for anything else)
1. Be a Domain Wizard and pick Transmutation domain
2. Take PA feat.
3. Take Alacritous Cogitation feat.
4. Take Versatile Spellcaster feat.
5. Go buy/scribe haste* into your spellbook.
Then these interactions occur:
-PA gives a 2nd level slot that can only have one [chosen] spell cast from it.
--Domain Wiz gives an extra 2nd level slot that can only have one [domain] spell cast from it.
-Leave both of those slots unprepared.
-Use VS to sac your domain slot and PA slot to cast haste.
--Domain slot for 3rd opens.
From then on each day you have these spells:
1sts: Normal + Expeditious Retreat (domain)
2nds: PA spell + Levitate (domain)
3rds: Haste (domain)
Which sets you good to go on having haste and casting only it this whole level (level 1).
But yeh, BAB=3 means the min is 2** and skills=6 means it is 3. Period.

*You have to use haste here, not any other spell, or you'll've cast some other 3rd level spell this level.
**Absurd cheese.

Edit: In any event, including not having flaws allowed, the tools here would allow hastes at 3rd for a human wiz, leaving only BAB as a (apparently non-)issue.

This doesn't work for several reasons.

1) Alacritous Cogitation only allows you to spontaneously cast a spell. While the prerequisite for Versatile Spellcaster is the ability to spontaneously cast spells.

2) Versatile Spellcaster does not say anything about negating the need for a sufficient caster level to cast the spell in question. That means you require CL 5 to cast Haste from a third level spell slot.

---
The best I can figure out how to do is cast Haste from a third level slot at level 3.

That requires an Elf Generalist Domain (Transmutation) Wizard 1/Psion 2 with the feats Practiced Spellcaster and Psiotheurgist with you selecting Transmutation (targeting creatures only) as your option for Psiotheurgist.

For spells of the Transmutation Domain your CL is 1(Wizard 1)+ 1(Domain wizard)+2 (Practiced Spellcaster)+2 (Psiotheurgist adding your ML to your transmutations that target creatures CL). Or CL 6.

Having a CL sufficient to cast a third level Domain Spell gives you the spell slot, which triggers Elf Generalist for another spell slot (although said slot can only be filled with the Domain Spell as it is the only third level spell you know).

So casting haste twice per day from a third level spell slot (oh yes, plus bonus spell slots for high Int) at ECL 3.

Feat wise you need to take Spell Focus at level 1 along with Practiced Spellcaster. Psiotheurgist is at level 2 (Psion Bonus feat).

[INoKnowNames]

Well, it says you must use all 3rd level spell slots to cast Haste. Well, if you had zero spell slots, and cast all of zero Hastes out of third level spell slots, and did not cast anything else out of a third level spell slot... I'd think that'd qualify. Kinda cheesily, but there's probably a Rules Lawyerese case to be made there. 100% of your 0 spell slots were Haste. And 0% of your 0 spell slots were not haste.

.... there's no case to be made at all. Part of the requirement is the ability to cast Haste. If you can't cast it, especially just because you can't and just pretend you can't because you don't feel like it... honestly, just trying to figure out how to begin to try to explain this reasoning is making my head hurt.


If having 3rd level slots and haste is somehow the only issue, and not the, say, hard limit of lvl 3 to have 6 ranks in a skill, then you can have that at level 1...
You can have 9ths at level 1...
O.k. Most DMs would ban the above level of cheese, but not all.

Let's see if I can slap together parts of it to just get to 3rds.
0. Have flaw(s) allowed (1 for human/SHH, 2 for anything else)
1. Be a Domain Wizard and pick Transmutation domain
2. Take PA feat.
3. Take Alacritous Cogitation feat.
4. Take Versatile Spellcaster feat.
5. Go buy/scribe haste* into your spellbook.
Then these interactions occur:
-PA gives a 2nd level slot that can only have one [chosen] spell cast from it.
--Domain Wiz gives an extra 2nd level slot that can only have one [domain] spell cast from it.
-Leave both of those slots unprepared.
-Use VS to sac your domain slot and PA slot to cast haste.
--Domain slot for 3rd opens.
From then on each day you have these spells:
1sts: Normal + Expeditious Retreat (domain)
2nds: PA spell + Levitate (domain)
3rds: Haste (domain)
Which sets you good to go on having haste and casting only it this whole level (level 1).
But yeh, BAB=3 means the min is 2** and skills=6 means it is 3. Period.

*You have to use haste here, not any other spell, or you'll've cast some other 3rd level spell this level.
**Absurd cheese.

Edit: In any event, including not having flaws allowed, the tools here would allow hastes at 3rd for a human wiz, leaving only BAB as a (apparently non-)issue.

I may have been confusing when I said that they are a non issue. They've already been solved, so to speak. To speak further on the matter presents a possible spoiler for the build, though.

As for this suggestion (as Emperor Tippy points out), Wizards don't actually qualify for Versatile Spellcaster. Additionally, I don't see how Domain Wizard gives an additional 2nd Level Spell Slot just because Precious Apprentice does. Not exactly something that would fly.


This doesn't work for several reasons.

1) Alacritous Cogitation only allows you to spontaneously cast a spell. While the prerequisite for Versatile Spellcaster is the ability to spontaneously cast spells.

2) Versatile Spellcaster does not say anything about negating the need for a sufficient caster level to cast the spell in question. That means you require CL 5 to cast Haste from a third level spell slot.

---
The best I can figure out how to do is cast Haste from a third level slot at level 3.

That requires an Elf Generalist Domain (Transmutation) Wizard 1/Psion 2 with the feats Practiced Spellcaster and Psiotheurgist with you selecting Transmutation (targeting creatures only) as your option for Psiotheurgist.

For spells of the Transmutation Domain your CL is 1(Wizard 1)+ 1(Domain wizard)+2 (Practiced Spellcaster)+2 (Psiotheurgist adding your ML to your transmutations that target creatures CL). Or CL 6.

Having a CL sufficient to cast a third level Domain Spell gives you the spell slot, which triggers Elf Generalist for another spell slot (although said slot can only be filled with the Domain Spell as it is the only third level spell you know).

So casting haste twice per day from a third level spell slot (oh yes, plus bonus spell slots for high Int) at ECL 3.

Feat wise you need to take Spell Focus at level 1 along with Practiced Spellcaster. Psiotheurgist is at level 2 (Psion Bonus feat).

I fail to see how having a Caster Level of 6 would be enough to get a Spell Slot. I'd been under the assumption that it merely increases the affects of spells. Even Psiotheurgist notes that it doesn't increase spells per day or give the ability to cast spells higher than normal... same with Practiced Spellcaster, actually.

[ArcturusV]

I mean if you went into something like Trapsmith that had Haste as a lower level spell you could cast. If you COULD cast haste, but it was a 1st or 2nd level spell? Then the above would apply in that twisted Rules Lawyer type logic. 100% of your 3rd level spell slots were using Haste, you can Cast Haste, and 0% were non-Haste spells.

[INoKnowNames]

I mean if you went into something like Trapsmith that had Haste as a lower level spell you could cast. If you COULD cast haste, but it was a 1st or 2nd level spell? Then the above would apply in that twisted Rules Lawyer type logic. 0% of your 3rd level spell slots were using Haste, you can Cast Haste, and 0% were non-Haste spells.

Problem Underlined and Lapse of Logic Bolded and Amended. The issue with Trapsmith is, again, its requirements mean that you'd sooner get into SwiftBlade than Trapsmith.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Spellhoarding Venerable Dragonwrought Kobold Loredrake, Greater Draconic Rite of Passage, two flaws.
Stalwart Battle Sorcerer 4/ Swiftblade 9/ Dragonslayer 1/ Spellsword 1/ Abjurant Champion 5
Casts as a Wizard 20 and gets +19 BAB at 20th level.

[Jeff the Green]

100% of your 3rd level spell slots were using Haste, you can Cast Haste, and 0% were non-Haste spells.

That's not exactly true. If you have 0 3rd level spell slots, to get the percentage you spent casting haste you'd have to divide 0 by 0. Which is undefined.

[INoKnowNames]

Spellhoarding Venerable Dragonwrought Kobold Loredrake, Greater Draconic Rite of Passage, two flaws.

I'm having trouble finding every thing listed, and this is incredibly cheesy, so if there's another possible answer, I'd prefer it.... but it -does- work for this purpose, and will be used if need be... My only question: is it possible for the Kobold to assume some medium sized humanoid shape and still retain all those features? And is Spellhoarding required? I asked for Wizard because I was going with Int synergy, but Cha works, too.


Stalwart Battle Sorcerer 4/ Swiftblade 9/ Dragonslayer 1/ Spellsword 1/ Abjurant Champion 5
Casts as a Wizard 20 and gets +19 BAB at 20th level.

.... Christ, I want to actually play this myself. Freaking Yoda; that's incredible!


That's not exactly true. If you have 0 3rd level spell slots, to get the percentage you spent casting haste you'd have to divide 0 by 0. Which is undefined.

Exactly.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I'm having trouble finding every thing listed, and this is incredibly cheesy, so if there's another possible answer, I'd prefer it.... but it -does- work for this purpose, and will be used if need be... My only question: is it possible for the Kobold to assume some medium sized humanoid shape and still retain all those features? And is Spellhoarding required? I asked for Wizard because I was going with Int synergy, but Cha works, too.

.... Christ, I want to actually play this myself. Freaking Yoda; that's incredible!

Spellhoarding (Dragon 313) converts your Sorcerer spellcasting to Wizard casting of equal level.
Venerable age category, because with Dragonwrought (Races of the Dragon) you don't take penalties to your physical stats for aging.
Loredrake (Dragons of Eberron) increases your Sorcerer casting by two levels, with no drawbacks on this character.
I should have mentioned Desert Kobold (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/environmentalRacialVariants.htm#desertKobolds) since it doesn't get a Con penalty.
Greater Draconic Rite of Passage (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a) increases your Sorcerer casting by one level.

Note you should probably be using Alter Self (Dragon forms), Polymorph, and Draconic Polymorph to assume physically strong combat forms.

[thethird]

If LA buyoff is on the table and it probably is if you are using all that cheese become a white dragonspawn for an extra level of spellcasting.

---

Note that the swiftblade handbook (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871410/The_Swiftblade_Handbook) references the class designers on the validity of entering using trapsmith (that's why I mentioned it)

[INoKnowNames]

Spellhoarding (Dragon 313) converts your Sorcerer spellcasting to Wizard casting of equal level.
Venerable age category, because with Dragonwrought (Races of the Dragon) you don't take penalties to your physical stats for aging.
Loredrake (Dragons of Eberron) increases your Sorcerer casting by two levels, with no drawbacks on this character.
I should have mentioned Desert Kobold (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/environmentalRacialVariants.htm#desertKobolds) since it doesn't get a Con penalty.
Greater Draconic Rite of Passage (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a) increases your Sorcerer casting by one level.

Note you should probably be using Alter Self (Dragon forms), Polymorph, and Draconic Polymorph to assume physically strong combat forms.

Jesus H Christ.... cheesy as a Large Pizza Hut Pan.... but it still makes the grade, I suppose.


If LA buyoff is on the table and it probably is if you are using all that cheese become a white dragonspawn for an extra level of spellcasting.

---

Note that the swiftblade handbook (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871410/The_Swiftblade_Handbook) references the class designers on the validity of entering using trapsmith (that's why I mentioned it)

Believe it or not, LA is allowed, but Buy Off is not. Heh...

And I suppose I can see that if the designer mentions it as working, but there's still the fact that you'd need to qualify for Trapsmith before you qualify for Swiftblade, and it'd be easier to just straight up qualify for Swiftblade, wouldn't it?

[Jigokuro]

2) Versatile Spellcaster does not say anything about negating the need for a sufficient caster level to cast the spell in question. That means you require CL 5 to cast Haste from a third level spell slot.
I've seen others mention this before and never get an answer; where does it say you need a certain caster level to cast a certain spell level? It seems to be implied a few feats/etc but never, afaict, said as an actual rule.
From a RAI perspective (which neither of us care about, but humor me) I don't see the problem with a CL 1 haste anyway, since it would only last 1 round.

[ArcturusV]

Player's Handbook page 171, had the relevant text. It mentions that you're allowed to lower your Caster Level, if you so desire, but it must at mimimum be the level that someone of the class you're casting the spell from needs to cast that spell.

Because sometimes a spell is something like Wizard/Sorcerer 1 (Requires CL 1), or Cleric 2 (Requires CL 3 if you cast it as a clerical spell).

[Jigokuro]

Player's Handbook page 171, had the relevant text. It mentions that you're allowed to lower your Caster Level, if you so desire, but it must at mimimum be the level that someone of the class you're casting the spell from needs to cast that spell.

Because sometimes a spell is something like Wizard/Sorcerer 1 (Requires CL 1), or Cleric 2 (Requires CL 3 if you cast it as a clerical spell).

It only says "the caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question" and not what that is. That kind of phrase is used in a couple different feats as well. However, nowhere is there ever a declaration equating to "To cast a spell you must have a CL equal to or greater than the level of the class you are casting as would normally gain access to that spell's level" or, in fact, any word on what minimum CL is required to cast any spell, (except fireball, which is 5th.)
RAI? probably.
Good Houserule? Definitely.
RAW? No.

I'm quite surprised it was Tippy of all people to call this out...:smallconfused:

[thethird]

It potentially reduces the level of wizards needed to 0. It certainly reduces the levels of spellcasting needed to 1.

What is your intended build by the way?

[Emperor Tippy]

I fail to see how having a Caster Level of 6 would be enough to get a Spell Slot. I'd been under the assumption that it merely increases the affects of spells. Even Psiotheurgist notes that it doesn't increase spells per day or give the ability to cast spells higher than normal... same with Practiced Spellcaster, actually.
Because of Domain Wizard. Once you would be able to cast the spell you gain the spell and the spell slot. The only things required to be able to cast the spell are meeting the CL requirement and having the Int score.

Normally the reason that you can't cast higher level spells earlier with just a boosted CL is that you don't have spell slots of that level and the CL boosting does not give you said spell slots and you can only get bonus spell slots from high Int if you already have a spell slot of the level in question. This is where Domain Wizard and Elf Generalist come in.



I've seen others mention this before and never get an answer; where does it say you need a certain caster level to cast a certain spell level? It seems to be implied a few feats/etc but never, afaict, said as an actual rule.
From a RAI perspective (which neither of us care about, but humor me) I don't see the problem with a CL 1 haste anyway, since it would only last 1 round.
The SRD, the PHB, and the RC.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverv...tm#casterLevel

"You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question, and all level-dependent features must be based on the same caster level. "

And Rules Compendium pg. 133
"CASTER LEVEL
A spell’s power often depends on its caster level, which is usually equal to your class level in the class you’re using to cast the spell. You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question. All level-dependent features must be based on the same caster level. "

Page 171 of the PHB has an example that calls this out as it says "and she can't cast fireball with a caster level lower than 5th (the minimum level required for a wizard to cast fireball)."


RAW? No.
RAW Yes.


For instance, to cast web(a 2nd-level wizard spell) from a scroll, you would need a Use Magic Device check result of 23 or better, since the minimum caster level for web is 3rd level.


I'm quite surprised it was Tippy of all people to call this out...:smallconfused:
Why? I talk about the RAW, not the stupidity that a lot of "optimizers" talk about where they deliberately misread the RAW.

[Kazyan]

Why? I talk about the RAW, not the stupidity that a lot of "optimizers" talk about where they deliberately misread the RAW.

Tippy, you're more-or-less the best D&D 3.5 optimizer in the world as far as I can tell with no exaggeration; we can't all meet your standards of accuracy.

[INoKnowNames]

I hadn't posted in here because I was trying to do my own research over this subject, and I'm sadly unable to find a result...


I've seen others mention this before and never get an answer; where does it say you need a certain caster level to cast a certain spell level? It seems to be implied a few feats/etc but never, afaict, said as an actual rule.
From a RAI perspective (which neither of us care about, but humor me) I don't see the problem with a CL 1 haste anyway, since it would only last 1 round.


Player's Handbook page 171, had the relevant text. It mentions that you're allowed to lower your Caster Level, if you so desire, but it must at mimimum be the level that someone of the class you're casting the spell from needs to cast that spell.

Because sometimes a spell is something like Wizard/Sorcerer 1 (Requires CL 1), or Cleric 2 (Requires CL 3 if you cast it as a clerical spell).

I don't see why someone wants to lower the caster level on a spell in the first place, to be honest. What benefit does someone get from a weaker version of a spell as opposed to making it stronger?


It potentially reduces the level of wizards needed to 0. It certainly reduces the levels of spellcasting needed to 1.

How is it possible to reduce the level of spellcasting needed to one? If you don't have the spell slots, how could you cast the spell, just because you made it significantly weaker than it would have been?


What is your intended build by the way?

I've got a few options, but I've been trying to figure out how many levels I have to work with, which is why I wanted to figure out how many wizard or sorcerer levels I had to spend to get into Swiftblade, then go into Swiftblade 9.


Because of Domain Wizard. Once you would be able to cast the spell you gain the spell and the spell slot. The only things required to be able to cast the spell are meeting the CL requirement and having the Int score.

Normally the reason that you can't cast higher level spells earlier with just a boosted CL is that you don't have spell slots of that level and the CL boosting does not give you said spell slots and you can only get bonus spell slots from high Int if you already have a spell slot of the level in question. This is where Domain Wizard and Elf Generalist come in.

I've been under the assumption that in order to cast a spell, one is required to have 2 things: Spell Slots of that Spell's Level, and either that Spell Known or Prepared. I don't see how Caster Level has anything to do with being able to actually -cast- the Spell, since, as far as I know, including from what was just quoted, Caster Level only modifies the power of the spell.

I'm not saying you're wrong, Emperor. I'm sure as sugar not going to call out Emperor Tippy of all people; that's just suicide. I merely don't understand what's being said. I don't see how two feats that even note they don't actually grant spells through their use, and two alternate class features that merely give additional spells of levels that one would already be able to access, would grant new levels of spells that one would not already be able to access.

I'm not seeing the RAW or RAI on this at all. I'm just asking you to help me see. I feel like an Elf would work a bit better than a Kobold for this situation, so I'm especially interested in seeing where I'm messing up the logic so I can make this work.