invisible vs scent. help pls

[reapersoulEater]

so my friend is wondering since Wotc says that if your invisible and adjacent to opponent/monster you automatically get sneak attack even if they have scent. but scent says that it prevents such attacks... so they contradict each other...

so can someone enlighten me, so i can en light my friends and there's more gaming and less arguing thank you

[ArcturusV]

Well, the Scent ruling is actually a rule. From what it sounds like, your WotC says is probably in their FAQ, which isn't a rule. And notoriously unreliable, often contradicts the rules (Or even itself). Note that Scent doesn't actually pinpoint someone automatically, but has to spend a movement action to do so.

Course, there are a few things that foil Scent. The Darkstalker feat, abilities like Pass Without a Trace, etc.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Where are you guys seeing that scent prevents sneak attacks?

[Tokiko Mima]

When a creature with the scent quality moves to within 5 feet of you, they can tell exactly what square you are standing it i.e. pinpoint your location. If they are further away, they can spend a move action to know what direction you are, but they can't tell exactly where and therefore cannot pinpoint you. Invisibility is no defense at all against this type of location, but it doesn't mean that the creature can see you, it just knows where you are, and can launch attacks as if you were totally concealed. In the words of the SRD,


If a character tries to attack an invisible creature whose location he has pinpointed, he attacks normally, but the invisible creature still benefits from full concealment (and thus a 50% miss chance).

There is no specific defense scent gives a creature against being attacked by invisible targets, or creatures with total concealment. An invisible character ignores its opponents' Dexterity bonuses to AC, and therefore Sneak Attack can be used. So as long as it can't actually see you and gain back it's Dex bonus to AC, you can make sneak attacks even if it can pinpoint your location.

[Devils_Advocate]

The description of Invisibility (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#invisibility) says "A creature with the scent ability can detect an invisible creature as it would a visible one". But "can" is not the same as "always does"! Further clarification is required.

The description of Scent (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#scent) provides this clarification, specifying "The creature detects another creature’s presence but not its specific location. Noting the direction of the scent is a move action. If it moves within 5 feet of the scent’s source, the creature can pinpoint that source."

It seems clear that "pinpointing the source of a scent" and "detecting an invisible creature as one would a visible one" refer to the same thing. So a creature with the Scent special ability is at no disadvantage due to invisibility IF AND ONLY IF the invisible creature is within 5 feet of the creature with Scent.

So, in conclusion, no, being invisible does not allow you to Sneak Attack an adjacent creature if that creature has Scent. However, it does allow you to Sneak Attack a non-adjacent creature.

Hope that helps!

[TuggyNE]

It seems clear that "pinpointing the source of a scent" and "detecting an invisible creature as one would a visible one" refer to the same thing. So a creature with the Scent special ability is at no disadvantage due to invisibility IF AND ONLY IF the invisible creature is within 5 feet of the creature with Scent.

This may seem clear, but it is unfortunately wrong. For one thing, "detecting an invisible creature [by scent] as one would a visible one" refers only to being able to smell an invisible creature just as normal; i.e., invisibility does not grant scentlessness.

Secondly, "pinpointing" does not mean what you think it means.
An invisible creature's location cannot be pinpointed by visual means, including darkvision. It has total concealment; even if an attacker correctly guesses the invisible creature's location, the attacker has a 50% miss chance in combat.
[…]
It’s practically impossible (+20 DC) to pinpoint an invisible creature’s location with a Spot check, and even if a character succeeds on such a check, the invisible creature still benefits from total concealment (50% miss chance).
[…]
A creature can use hearing to find an invisible creature. […] A successful check lets a character hear an invisible creature “over there somewhere.” It’s practically impossible to pinpoint the location of an invisible creature. A Listen check that beats the DC by 20 pinpoints the invisible creature’s location.

A creature can grope about to find an invisible creature. […] If successful, the groping character deals no damage but has successfully pinpointed the invisible creature’s current location.[…]

If an invisible creature strikes a character […] In this case, the struck character knows the general location of the creature but has not pinpointed the exact location.

If a character tries to attack an invisible creature whose location he has pinpointed, he attacks normally, but the invisible creature still benefits from full concealment (and thus a 50% miss chance). A particularly large and slow creature might get a smaller miss chance.

In all of these cases, pinpointing refers uniformly, only, and specifically to knowing what square the creature is in; it does not negate total concealment's miss chance, nor prevent loss of Dex modifier, nor cancel the +2 bonus to attacks.

[Gavinfoxx]

You should read this if you want to know methods to foil odd methods of sensing:

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?&topic=8995

[Devils_Advocate]

This may seem clear, but it is unfortunately wrong. For one thing, "detecting an invisible creature [by scent] as one would a visible one" refers only to being able to smell an invisible creature just as normal; i.e., invisibility does not grant scentlessness.
Actually, the wording in the rules is "A creature with the scent ability can detect an invisible creature as it would a visible one".

On consideration, I can see that the writer probably meant only that invisibility doesn't interfere with scent, but in that case there's a pretty big difference between what was intended and what was written! (Either that or there's some meaning of the word "as" that I'm not familiar with!)


Secondly, "pinpointing" does not mean what you think it means.
Huh, guess I should have read through the rules on invisibility more carefully.

The More You Know.