So this seems a bit unreasonable

[Near]

So I play about 5 games in total, I run two characters in person and three online across some various boards.

I'll give you some backstory, in the game which I talk about here, I'm a Warforged Warblade, we've got a Pixie Sorcerer and a Aasimar Favoured Soul.

Our DM has houseruled that Cantrips and Orisions are free to cast (like in Pathfinder), and by extention he also allowed racial SLA's to be infinite casting as well. We are all level 12 and are playing a high powered custom campaign.

I found out today that the Pixie character has been pulling together some shenanigans behind the scenes, and may be in league with our BBEG (Or be a plant by the DM) - The reason for this suspicion is because I found out the pixie is permanently using Detect Thoughts on me and our Favoured Soul and is also building some kind of Orc army in a location about two days travel from where we are adventuring (Currently, we are under the impression that its being run by the BBEG, and we would be going to deal with it in about 3 levels due to how strong the "camp" is)

Basically, from what I know, it seems like the DM wanted to have some party conflict, and the Pixie ran with it too the extreme, basically becoming a mini BBEG himself.

The DM has been giving the pixie all the information about our two characters on the side(Backstory, passed notes, any internal conflict/roleplay arguments), and we haven't known at all what's been going on. We (the FS and myself) have been proceeding on the assumption that we're doing the right thing, but it seems like we've actually been at the mercy of the Pixie.

So, there are a few problems:
1) I feel like my privacy/trust ingame and out of game has been completely violated by the DM and the Pixie
2)The only reason I know this, is because the DM broke down after our session today and told me after the other two had left what's been going on. He says he's been rolling our will saves vs the detect thoughts for us, and has been counting the DC as higher because the Pixie's CHA is 26 (18 +6(race) +2(lvl 4,8).

I haven't passed any of the saves (apparently) but the DM says he can't keep going and feels pretty ****ty because the Pixie seems to have too much power.

So, I don't know what I should do, Basically this person has been pulling some major BS on a count of a few bad calls of the DM re: SLA and now our out of character trust and friendship is pretty well screwed over.

Advice Playground?

[Vknight]

Iron Heart Surge make the save?

Point out that the SLA's are treated as Caster Level 8th
So its 10+Spell Level+Charisma, so DC:20. Tell Dm and also maybe make it only 1st level and lower spells with unlimited SLA.

Rules on Detect Thoughts

1st Round
Presence or absence of thoughts (from conscious creatures with Intelligence scores of 1 or higher).

2nd Round
Number of thinking minds and the Intelligence score of each. If the highest Intelligence is 26 or higher (and at least 10 points higher than your own Intelligence score), you are stunned for 1 round and the spell ends. This spell does not let you determine the location of the thinking minds if you can’t see the creatures whose thoughts you are detecting.

3rd Round
Surface thoughts of any mind in the area. A target’s Will save prevents you from reading its thoughts, and you must cast detect thoughts again to have another chance. Creatures of animal intelligence (Int 1 or 2) have simple, instinctual thoughts that you can pick up.

It's only surface thoughts and it takes 3 rounds and also takes a Standard Action.
Its also a 60ft cone.

Also how quickly are you walking.
6 seconds, 20/30ft? or is it assumed every round your taking 2 move actions. 40/60ft? If that is what your going at he can have you in range. But its a save and he has to be looking at the two of you
Do you have a fast mode of travel? Horses or something? 45 to 60ft. at 1 move action. 90 to 120ft at 2 move actions a round. So on the 3rd round you'd be out of range. This does not work if the Pixie has some way of moving faster then 60ft a round. And/Or your all riding the same thing.


Each round, you can turn to detect thoughts in a new area. The spell can penetrate barriers, but 1 foot of stone, 1 inch of common metal, a thin sheet of lead, or 3 feet of wood or dirt blocks it.

Suggestions For You and Dm
Either kill Pixie cause made save and why would they do that
Or
Tell Favored Soul and Murder Pixie
Or
Tell Favored Soul confront Pixie. After tieing them up and gagging them so can only write.
Or
Tell Favred Soul don't confront
Or
Suggest to Dm, BBEG betrays Pixie
Or
BBEG does something to have a line directly to the Pixies brain so whenever the Pixie uses said power the BBEG gets to read all 3 of your minds
Or
BBEG does ritual to make cantrips and things harder to cast all of the sudden every wizard has a hard time using, the things they used in basic life.
Or
Have BBEG send camp to destroy all 3 of you saying that the information he received was useful but your a liability.
Or

[Siosilvar]

As is usual with PVP stuff, this isn't an in-game issue, it's an out-of-game issue, and is only okay if everyone is onboard with it. If you're not onboard with it, you need to have a group discussion.

[Arundel]

I have nothing to contribute, but Siosilvar that may be the best Avatar that I have ever seen.

[Gildedragon]

I'd recommend pointing the DM in these boards' direction, if he feels bad about things and is at a loss.

As far as things go I'm partial to letting players roll their saves; sure it lets them know something is going on, but players might have something to boost their saves.

[FleshrakerAbuse]

Seriously, though, the DM should have ask prior to the campaign whether or not you guys would have been okay with things like this. Then, he could have decided whether or not to tell you guys OOC, so that you guys would know about the betrayal. The DMG2 actually has a part like this, where the DM has mainly two options:

-Spectator: You know what's happening in secret but your character doesn't. This way, it actually helps build suspense and helps make the sudden reveal's power more effective, like "viewers in a horror movie, knowing the killer lurks above". However, this requires the player's consent to keep IC and OOC knowledge seperate.

-Secretive: Like he was doing.

However, even if he's going to do something like that that's so drastic and possibly going to fail/cause tension, he should have stated something much earlier (a few weeks) before using the idea.

As for solutions now, the best thing would probably be to do this:
-Get everyone together. Because IC your characters still don't know, you could still have the plot continue, while confronting and suggesting to the DM and the pixie to in the future keep trust OOC.
-Subtly work against the pixie IC. Try and find a way to have detect magic cast on either of you guys or the pixie by the favored soul (or when they are nearby). For example, if you guys come across a dangerous-looking situation or a magic item, suggest the favored soul to cast detect magic. This way, the storyline will continue; when you guys suddenly find the divination magic, turn around and capture him IC and either pretend or tell OOC that you found out about his betrayal, telling him to never do it again.

[Emperor Tippy]

Man up , find evidence of what is going on in character, and then hit the pixie with a Power Word: Pain one night before slitting it's throw with a Thinaun dagger.

Your PC is a high level adventurer, betrayal is part and parcel of the job. Mercilessly kill the Pixie PC and when the Pixie player complains just say "she made a mistake in game and gave away enough to get my character looking, so my character did what any high level adventurer would do and dealt with the problem.".

Remember, you get no save if you are asleep so buy a scroll of Mind Rape and then use it on her when she sleeps to learn all her plans.

Problem solved.

Now OoC talk with the player and DM and say no more of this PvP stuff.

[Arundel]

Man up , find evidence of what is going on in character, and then hit the pixie with a Power Word: Pain one night before slitting it's throw with a Thinaun dagger.

Your PC is a high level adventurer, betrayal is part and parcel of the job. Mercilessly kill the Pixie PC and when the Pixie player complains just say "she made a mistake in game and gave away enough to get my character looking, so my character did what any high level adventurer would do and dealt with the problem.".

Remember, you get no save if you are asleep so buy a scroll of Mind Rape and then use it on her when she sleeps to learn all her plans.

Problem solved.

Now OoC talk with the player and DM and say no more of this PvP stuff.

Its kind of depressing that the least depraved thing you can do with mindrape is use it on a sleeping friend to learn of their betrayal.

[Kyberwulf]

I don't know it all seems legit to me. I feel like your in a bad mood, because you weren't able to Metagame out of the Pixie's plans. You where told what your character was told, has experienced, and responded accordingly. Next time don't put so much trust in your fellow players. This is a good life lesson.

[Near]

I guess my objection is more towards the PvP/Hostile actions without any prior discussion on if this would be allowed. I was playing the game for the last 5 months under the impression we were an adventuring party working together (We are also all friends away from the table, So I didn't think this would have been an issue, and if we were going to play this type of game then It would have been discussed with every player by the DM, which did not happen).

I am going to talk to both the DM and the other players about this OOC, but I'm not sure if I should be doing this before I bring it up ingame (Seeing as we are apparently playing hostile PvP currently).

[danzibr]

I was under the impression the player is supposed to be aware of any saving throw they make. So all this time the DM could roll your Will saves but you (and your character) would know you're making saves. Like you feel your mind attempting to resist something and failing, you just wouldn't know what it is. Then right, maybe you can use Iron Heart Surge.

Anyway, I think it's actually a really neat idea. I can see how you feel betrayed, though.

EDIT: Maybe you can pull some stuff where your surface thoughts are all happy then you chop the Pixie to pieces.

[Near]

I was under the impression the player is supposed to be aware of any saving throw they make. So all this time the DM could roll your Will saves but you (and your character) would know you're making saves. Like you feel your mind attempting to resist something and failing, you just wouldn't know what it is. Then right, maybe you can use Iron Heart Surge.

I thought this would be the case as well, do you know if there is RAW to support it?

[Kelb_Panthera]

@OP:

The important thing to remember here is that this is just a game. It was a d-bag move on your DM's part and on the other player's part but the DM has realized his error and the other player probably thinks it's all in good fun. If he's really a friend he'll feel guilty and apologize immediately when he realizes he's made you feel bad.

That is; have an OOC discussion in a mature fashion and keep in mind that your friendship is more important than the game of "let's pretend" that all this crap went down in.

@Tippy:

I'm suprised at you. You aught to know that being asleep only makes you willing. That is, you're marked as willing for spells that require a willing target not you automatically fail all saves thrown your way.

[ericgrau]

1) Suck it up.
"3)" Even though you haven't passed the save, one of your allies surely has by now. Characters know when they pass a save, and should feel some kind of disturbing mental force.


Succeeding on a Saving Throw
A creature that successfully saves against a spell that has no obvious physical effects feels a hostile force or a tingle, but cannot deduce the exact nature of the attack. Likewise, if a creature’s saving throw succeeds against a targeted spell you sense that the spell has failed. You do not sense when creatures succeed on saves against effect and area spells.

Spellcasters get a DC 25 + spell level = 28 spellcraft too. Plus anyone who has passed a save before should know hey I don't know what it is but there's trouble somewhere.

Intrigue can be a great thing as long as your group is mature enough to not hate eachother in real life because of it. If you all can't handle it, then ok stop. The real problem here is that the player is auto-succeeding. There should be clues by now to help you catch him, or to make him wary of spamming the ability so much for fear of being discovered. Really he should be limiting it to before and after fights or other infrequent use, so that you think some other enemy is messing with you. Then the party hunts around, doesn't find anyone, and thinks dang he must have run away after the fight again.

Changing a 1/day into an at-will is an increase in power but it's not horrible. With all of the pixie's at-wills put together I'd put it at +1 LA. +2 LA from at-will permanent image, but it seems like the player hasn't figured this out yet.

[The Evil Moose]

I think you're taking this way too seriously. It's just a game, if someone betrays your character it doesn't matter, it's not real. I understand how that would make you feel betrayed, but don't let something so trivial effect your out of character friendships.

[FleshrakerAbuse]

Since he said he's going to confront them OOC, hopefully this will stop. If the Dm and the pixie apologize, but still want to have the hiding and betrayal continue, you have no evidence IC that they're doing it, thus making no sense. So, Tippy's method is a good one for killing him-but right now, finding out about the betrayal first might work better.

[Vknight]

I thought this would be the case as well, do you know if there is RAW to support it?

If your able to attempt the save you can Iron Heart Surge so if he has it then he could use it or any other of the save things.

Also I agree figure things out talk them out

Its just a game but one must be reasonable their exists a certain ediquette

[angry_bear]

I don't see anything inherently wrong with a PC quietly building their own army without the party's knowledge... If it's fair. The way the the DM was working detect thoughts, and chances are, various social occasions that would typically require bluff vs sense motive, it doesn't sound like it was a fair way of handling the intrigue going on.

When it gets to it, (And it will) can you and the other players handle the pixie in combat? A sorcerer with a charisma score like that, won't be an easy fight. Your best bet might be to just prep ooc for when you gotta take them out. Which granted, is stooping to the same level, but you might not have much of a choice in the matter at this point...

[Averis Vol]

Man, nice plot twist. Applaud the pixie for the great ruse before thoroughly thrashing his **** all over the forest in the most painful way you can possibly think of. Seriously, mid combat just when he's preoccupied/low on spells and disrupting blow his ass, and if he tries to retaliate (In another round, after you hit him with Irresistable mountain strike), aura of perfect order/moment of clarity for a probable instant pass if you don't iron heart surge it.

Seriously, I am all about deception, but if you happen to find out about it you have every right to tear that pixie a new one in the most brutal fashion possible.

[Sactheminions]

Take the Pixie aside, tell him you are very disappointed in him, and then describe all the ways you can jointly exploit a massive orc army for fun and profit. Ask whether the BBEG likes India Pale Ale.

It's your DM's fault. So the response should be to give him an opportunity to fix it by revising the campaign drastically.

If you can't beat 'em (cause God/the DM is on their side), join 'em.

[Grollub]

Well now you know what's going on, turn it to your advantage. First off you want to let the Favored Soul in on it. Then you should make a plan.

I would set the pixie up for a horrid death, but before you do you could pass a few "fake notes" back and forth, for misinformation. After you slaughter him, or as you slaughter him, I would make sure he knew the DM betrayed him and sold him out.

[Emperor Tippy]

@Tippy:

I'm suprised at you. You aught to know that being asleep only makes you willing. That is, you're marked as willing for spells that require a willing target not you automatically fail all saves thrown your way.

And I maintain that a willing creature automatically forgoes their saving throw. You don't get to save if you are asleep as you are automatically willing and thus get no saving throw.

[Kelb_Panthera]

And I maintain that a willing creature automatically forgoes their saving throw. You don't get to save if you are asleep as you are automatically willing and thus get no saving throw.

So the spell nightmare, in spite of its entry saying "save: will negates" doesn't allow a save since it can only target someone that's sleeping? The fort save Vs death from a CdG against a sleeping opponent is auto-failed?

A sleeping target doesn't get a reflex save, he's helpless, but not getting fort or will saves doesn't make any sense. It's not RAW either. The entry in the "aiming a spell" section of the players handbook doesn't say anything about being willing meaning you don't get a save. There's no mention of "willing target only" spells at all in the "saving throws" section that follows.

[Near]

So, it seems like the general concencus is that I'm feeling sour and need to get over it.

After speaking with the DM about what's been happening and asking about the DCs and the failures, it seems he's been misruling/allowing us to auto fail for more ~drama~. He's decided to rule that him coming out and telling me is me passing a save, and will now roll all saves and let me and the FS know if we've passed a save with the normal rules applying (Spellcraft and Iron Heart).

From here, its going to be proper PvP, and I think the pixie might have a few sleepless nights ahead if/when he realises we might be on to him(IC). The DM has agreed that It was a **** move to allow the pixie to have so much control this far, and that he should have been rolling the saving throws properly.

In terms of OOC, I'm a bit annoyed still, but Its more because the DM and the pixie have been having their own "club" and excluding the FS and myself (I think it went furthur than it should have, but thats dealt with now).

IC, I'm going to start suspecting something is up, and we'll see how it goes with the Pixie and FS. If I get some solid proof (which shouldn't be too hard) then its going to be smashy smash time(Although I do like Tippy's idea, and if the FS is on my side, then we'll see if we can get our hands on some scrolls).

[Vizzerdrix]

I'm disappointed. No one has mentioned the obvious option of rerolling as a spellstitched undead and using that to turn the pixie inside out?

[ericgrau]

You can also be unconscious and yet you still make a save against a coup de grace.

The rule on willingness and unconsciousness is as follows:


Some spells restrict you to willing targets only. Declaring yourself as a willing target is something that can be done at any time (even if you’re flat-footed or it isn’t your turn). Unconscious creatures are automatically considered willing, but a character who is conscious but immobile or helpless (such as one who is bound, cowering, grappling, paralyzed, pinned, or stunned) is not automatically willing.

This refers only to spells that require willing targets. Not to the option to voluntarily fail a save. That may be "willing" but it's not "Willing" with a specific rules effect. The context here is awfully specific about what kind of "willing" it is talking about.

[Wings of Peace]

I really don't see how this has screwed over your irl friendship with the pixie player. It sounds like he's just playing a role the dm gave him the opportunity to play, if anything I'd say it sounds like your dm tried to get a little more fancy than he was capable of.

[Invader]

And I maintain that a willing creature automatically forgoes their saving throw. You don't get to save if you are asleep as you are automatically willing and thus get no saving throw.

You aren't automatically willing if you're asleep, only unconscious, and those are 2 different things.

[Emperor Tippy]

You aren't automatically willing if you're asleep, only unconscious, and those are 2 different things.

That is actually true. Being asleep makes you helpless but not unconscious.

[Kyberwulf]

Yeah, the auto failing you was a **** move. You should have at least been able to be given a chance to know something was up.

[Maginomicon]

Racial SLAs becoming simply at-will is WAY too powerful. I know you said it's a high-powered game, but by that logic, (to take an extreme example) a Pit Fiend could use wish at-will.

Yeah... no.

Here's what I do in my regular game I run (which is also high-powered):Daily-use abilities innate to a character (but not within an item) now recharge after a period of continuous rest. Divide a period of three hours by the original number of uses-per-day to determine how quickly the abilities recharge. For example:
1/day = recharges 1 use after 3 hours of continuous rest
2/day = recharges 1 use after 90 minutes of continuous rest
3/day = recharges 1 use after 1 hour of continuous rest
4/day = recharges 1 use after 45 minutes of continuous rest
5/day = recharges 1 use after 36 minutes of continuous rest

The number of daily uses instead represents your maximum number of uses you can have available at any given moment (much like a power point pool maximum).

Abilities that are longer periods than expressed in a day cannot be recharged in this fashion (i.e. 1/year wish still takes a year to recharge).

As for your pixie ally, roleplaying-wise this isn't a whole lot different than the ally in-character simply being dominated (brainwashed) into working for the other side. Yes, admittedly it's not like you can simply break the domination since they really are on the other side, but it doesn't have to be a big hullabaloo OOC.