[PF] Orc Weapon Expertise and Two-Handed Weapon

[Mr. Zolrane]

I'm a DM and the player in my campaign is an orc barbarian who wields an orc double axe. He found the Orc Weapon Expertise (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/arg-feats/orc-weapon-expertise-combat-orc) feat and argues the following:


Since the orc double axe is under the category of "two-handed" weapon I should receive the +2 shield bonus to AC from "Defender" benefit of Orc Weapon Expertise rather than the +1 regardless of whether I am wielding it as THW or using Two-Weapon Fighting.

I argue that he only gets the +2 when he's opting not to utilize TWF based on the rules for double weapons which state that they count as a one-handed and light weapon. Been a long time (too long) since I've been on GitP but I figured I'd bring this one to the Playground.

So... talk to me guys. Am I ruling this correctly or is my player right?

[Yora]

I would say it's only the +1 bonus. But it's really a bit difficult to point at anything specific to put an end to any debate. But usually, using a double weapon counts as using a one-handed weapon and a light weapon, and I would apply that also in this case.

One could say, that the character might get the bonus for either weapon, but since it's a shield bonus, the two bonuses would not stack and still be just a +1 bonus.

[Mr. Zolrane]

One could say, that the character might get the bonus for either weapon, but since it's a shield bonus, the two bonuses would not stack and still be just a +1 bonus.

I hear what you're saying, but if I ruled that way wouldn't he still get the +2, because you take the higher bonus when you have two AC bonuses of the same non-stacking type?

[Squirrel_Dude]

It's a two-handed weapon. +2 bonus.

[Kudaku]

I agree with Squirrel, the +2 bonus is in order. Two-weapon fighting struggles as it is, no need to make 2handed look even more tempting.

[Mr. Zolrane]

I agree with Squirrel, the +2 bonus is in order. Two-weapon fighting struggles as it is, no need to make 2handed look even more tempting.

I won't disagree with you on the latter bit; I generally only play/recommend TWF to my players if they're playing a class like Paladin, Ranger on Ninja that have a lot of on-hit damage. I just have a difficult time reading the double weapon rules to permit it. Might bend them anyway. I'm not what you'd call a stickler for RAW in the first place.

[Kudaku]

I won't disagree with you on the latter bit; I generally only play/recommend TWF to my players if they're playing a class like Paladin, Ranger on Ninja that have a lot of on-hit damage. I just have a difficult time reading the double weapon rules to permit it. Might bend them anyway. I'm not what you'd call a stickler for RAW in the first place.

I see where you're coming from and it can be RAI-ruled both ways. :smallsmile: I added a bit of my reasoning underneath to explain how I reached that decision:

That particular feat is somewhat underwhelming to me personally since AFAIK and after briefly skimming PFSRD the orc double axe is the only weapon in the book with the Orc tag. So it's a feat that literally only works with a single weapon, which means that either the GM is tailoring loot to help you out or you're going to be sinking a lot of wealth into building the weapon you want to use.

If the bonus is ruled to be +1, then Two-Weapon Defense provides the same bonus with any combination of weapons, doesn't require him to be a an orc, and improves further if he uses Fighting Defensively.

Finally, the player could take Shield Bash and DW a short sword and a heavy shield for a +2 to AC, which (unlike the feat) will scale to level if he spends money upgrading the shield. Of course, that has other downsides like lower base damage.

Oh, and for those that adhere to RAW: Orc Double Axe is listed under two-handed weapons in the weapon list. Personally I'm not a big fan of RAW, but some do seem to give it a great amount of attention.

[ericgrau]

First stealth nerfs/buffs are never the answer. Always do them out in the open and don't force people to take oddball choices just to get them.

Next I took a look at power attack for precedence, and it is much more specific. So that hints at +2 but still leaves the matter unanswered. Someone could try to make the same argument to +50% PA damage while using TWF on a double weapon. And then the off-hand end would get both +50% and -50% for normal PA damage or 75% PA damage depending on how you do the math.

Looking at the rules for double weapons, it says that they can be used as-if fighting with two weapons with all associated rules penalties, and can be used two-handed, but not that they are these things (in this section of the rules).

Hmm. Based on potential power attack abuse I'm going to have to say +1 AC when it's used with TWF. And for the semi-RAW, it's because it acts as a one handed weapon and a light weapon for all rules purposes at this time. But the advantage he gets is that whenever he single attacks, for example every time he moves + attacks which is very often, the weapon acts as a two-handed weapon and he gets +2 AC. That's already better than two-weapon defense for the same feat cost. And it is the time when he is most likely to be attacked in response, so it might be more than half the attacks received even if it isn't quite more than half the attacks he dishes out.

That's also the advantage of a double weapon over two weapons, btw. It overcomes the complaint that single attacks are weakened vs THF. With a double weapon, they aren't.

[Kudaku]

First stealth nerfs/buffs are never the answer. Always do them out in the open and don't force people to take oddball choices just to get them.

I wouldn't really call it a stealth nerf or a stealth buff - just an interpretation of the rules. I outlined why I ruled it as a +2 bonus in my second post. Of course, people are perfectly free to rule it however they want :smallsmile:



That's also the advantage of a double weapon over two weapons, btw. It overcomes the complaint that single attacks are weakened vs THF. With a double weapon, they aren't.

I disagree with that. Burning two feats on proficiency and two-weapon fighting (plus the high dexterity modifier to qualify for said feats in the first place) to fight with a -2 penalty for on average 2 extra damage versus no feats wasted and better to hit bonus... Personally I still find THF is superior on average, and that's before getting into full attacks vs single attacks etc.

[ericgrau]

Vs. TWF with two weapons. So that isn't even responding to the statement I made. People really must like to recycle the same old hat.

Anyway the same old way to get TWF to work is with bonus damage or other bonus per hit effects. In PF, TWF smite, spell storing, combat maneuvers (with other weapons) and more can work. While passable, rogues tend to have other drawbacks that counteract their bonus damage though.

[Kudaku]

Vs. TWF with two weapons. So that isn't even responding to the statement I made. People really must like to recycle the same old hat.

It could very well be I jumped the gun there, but I'm reasonably sure you were referring to THF at least once:

That's also the advantage of a double weapon over two weapons, btw. It overcomes the complaint that single attacks are weakened vs THF. With a double weapon, they aren't.

My bolding. At least I assume by THF you mean Two-Handed Fighting?

In that case, even on a single attack a TWF deals 1d8 to the THF's 2d6, and the THF is still at least one feat and a most likely a fair few PBs ahead of the TWF.