Evil or Just a Jerk?

[Feilith]

So I'm starting a new 3.5 game soon and want to play something out of the box, so I decided on a Chaotic Evil rogue. But as I got around to thinking about how to play it, I started thinking of the character as sort of just immensely rude.

Now I know that Evil people are supposed to not care about other people's feelings, but it starts to feel like you're being a jerk for the sake of being a jerk, and I don't know how well the rest of the party will respond to someone doing that.

Basically I'm looking for a little guidance as to how to play Evil without upsetting everyone else at the table.

[MichaelGoldclaw]

Lawful Evil can be very compatible with the group. Just be a prick to anyone who breaks the law.

Thief: dead
Assassin: tortured to death

[Marnath]

You might try reading this (http://www.easydamus.com/chaoticevil.html), it seems pretty well thought out.

[Kevingway]

You may want to just try Neutral Evil for your purposes, or maybe even Lawful Evil, since Chaotic Evil really will make you a jerk in that you're just going to run around causing mayhem to everyone that crosses your path.

That aside, you can be Evil in very subtle ways. Tell a lie to someone that will surely end up getting them killed, don't help someone when they're being beaten up by another monster (this goes for NPC's and PC's as well--just because they're your friends doesn't mean your character won't have his own agenda that may require them stepping out of your way, aka dying). Sure, it may upset the other players, but you're acting in-character, and sometimes it's better to stay true to what your character would do than to 360 yourself into someone who actually cares.

Sometimes you'll do good acts that still end up furthering your own evil schemes. If you're familiar with the Ruathar class, that's one good example of where you can gain powers by being a hero to the Elven people, when really you're manipulating their trust because, well, you're evil. It's up to you to decide what your characters goals are, but remember to always do things to fulfill some sort of goal, rather than simply being a jerk to everyone because of your alignment descriptor.

[VestigeArcanist]

In my experience, PC's tend to embrace Evil as a way of life. As if, each and every decision they make, they stop and wonder "Is this evil? If yes, then do it." I think this is the wrong way to approach it. To be evil, you just need one unrepented evil act. The rest of the time, you can be a jerk, or even nice. One time, I played a character who abused and abandoned his wife. But he did plenty of good things, loyal to the death, was likeable to NPCs and PC alike. He hated his wife, left her for a life of adventure, and beyond his backstory, it was never never touched upon again.

So if you want a chaotic evil rogue, you do not need a capital "E" Evil, you can just be bad that one time and do what ever you want afterwards.

[Kelb_Panthera]

The jerk attitude is, in no way, intrinsic to the CE mind-set. You get LG jerks.

CE is about an attitude of "might makes right" and a disinterest in the well-being of others. Mind, "might makes right" can be applied to mental might as well.

In the case of a CE rogue, I'd run it something like "If I'm clever enough to get what I want from <person> then I deserve it more than he does," for his attitude in general and wouldn't bat an eyelash at shanking the crap out of any and everyone that gets in my way if I think it's the most expedient way to get what I want.

Don't play it stupid-evil though. Even the most blood-thirsty of evil men know (or at least ought to know) that there's always someone better or more dangerous out there. Keeping an eye toward doing dastardly deeds without getting caught is just as important as getting what you want.

Also remember that being evil doesn't preclude having friends. "I'll happily gank a random stranger for his sunglasses (I needed a new pair anyway) but I've always got my friends' backs and they damn well better have mine."

[Xervous]

What you have described there is probably Stupid Evil, as its commonly called. This is one of the common methods that people employ when they try to play an evil PC. Its also one of the main reasons why most groups don't tolerate evil PCs.

And Chaotic does NOT EVER EVER mean you have the right to do whatever you damn feel like, unless you are derptastic chaotic evil. Do yourself a favor and play a smart evil character. Your party will be more likely to tolerate you and it won't break the immersion.

A smart evil character...

Does not rob random places or people with no regard for consequences. Chaotic doesn't mean stupid, you can still plan an amazing heist.
Does not kill random people... too often. If you want to kill people who don't really need to be killed, instead try showing too much enthusiasm about hurting your foes in combat, and take the time to describe coup de graces against foes that are bleeding out.
Cackling card carrying evil just doesn't fly. Hide your depraved and sadistic urges beneath a mask of formality and elegance. This has the added benefit of making those dark moments the rest of the party sees all the worse.
If you want to kill someone IC really important that you know will bring OOC hate down upon you, don't make it a spur of the moment thing. Instead talk to the DM and possibly (campaign depending) the player about planning the whole thing out. Some campaigns may warrant that your character becomes an NPC after such actions of betrayal, while other (darker) campaigns will allow for you to continue adventuring with your party given you don't get pinned with the blame.

[ScubaGoomba]

That aside, you can be Evil in very subtle ways. Tell a lie to someone that will surely end up getting them killed, don't help someone when they're being beaten up by another monster (this goes for NPC's and PC's as well--just because they're your friends doesn't mean your character won't have his own agenda that may require them stepping out of your way, aka dying). Sure, it may upset the other players, but you're acting in-character, and sometimes it's better to stay true to what your character would do than to 360 yourself into someone who actually cares.

So much NO about this.

Even if you're acting in character, that's you acting in character in a way that you, as a player, have dictated. D&D is a social game between friends before anything else and if you break those unspoken rules (such as "players won't abandon one another mid-combat") you're being a jerk, straight-up.

Unless your alignment matters (and I can't see, at least in the beginning, that the Law/Chaos axis would), just say NE and play what feels right within the group. Once you get a feel for the character, then decide which alignment actually fits.

Remember that Evil characters aren't going to go around killing people and may, actually not kill when given the chance. Good and Evil, in these games, tends to be more of "The Whole vs. The One," with Evil characters (by and large) looking out for their own interests and Good characters for the good of the people/party/kingdom/whatever. Hell, as an Evil Rogue, you could be trying to infiltrate some ranks and are going undercover with this party. If they don't have someone that can detect evil, all the better, because they'll just assume you're at least Neutral. Evil characters can do Good things. Evil characters can be good people. They just do it for selfish reasons and couldn't give two ****s about anybody else.

[Fyermind]

I am a firm believer that Evil does not mean disloyal. I believe that alignments are general ways you act, but you act differently with those you care about. Think of it this way, you need a safe place to sleep, so you better not tick off anyone in the party. Sure, if you don't get caught, but don't do anything too risky they wouldn't like. With people you can afford to have dislike you though, it's no holds barred. Never do anything for free. Whenever you do something, make sure everyone knows it's a because you want to, not because you have to.

The world is in the eye of the beholder, so to you the world is self serving and unfair. You are just trying to fit in. You aren't just killing a guy for his sunglasses because you can, you are killing him for his sunglasses because he looked at your jacket funny.

The only things you can trust in are your companions, (come up with a good reason for that one) material possessions, fear, and that you will be betrayed.

Edit: Loss is worse than death. You don't have to kill someone to ruin their lives. If you want to relish in being evil, maiming is better than killing.

[Rhynn]

Now I know that Evil people are supposed to not care about other people's feelings, but it starts to feel like you're being a jerk for the sake of being a jerk, and I don't know how well the rest of the party will respond to someone doing that.

Not caring and acting like you don't care are separate things. Even complete sociopaths can learn to make the right noises at people to be liked - some are extremely good at it.
(spoilered gruesome real-life Evil people)
See Ted Bundy, who everybody liked when he wasn't biting off pieces from young women's bottoms, or John Wayne Gacy, who was a widely-liked community activist, party clown, and a sexual murderer of underage boys.

You can be as Evil as you like, but unless you're also delusional or completely dissociated, you're going to care what people around you think about you, if only because being hated makes life harder when you want something.

[Kelb_Panthera]

You may want to just try Neutral Evil for your purposes, or maybe even Lawful Evil, since Chaotic Evil really will make you a jerk in that you're just going to run around causing mayhem to everyone that crosses your path.

That aside, you can be Evil in very subtle ways. Tell a lie to someone that will surely end up getting them killed, don't help someone when they're being beaten up by another monster (this goes for NPC's and PC's as well--just because they're your friends doesn't mean your character won't have his own agenda that may require them stepping out of your way, aka dying). Sure, it may upset the other players, but you're acting in-character, and sometimes it's better to stay true to what your character would do than to 360 yourself into someone who actually cares.

Sometimes you'll do good acts that still end up furthering your own evil schemes. If you're familiar with the Ruathar class, that's one good example of where you can gain powers by being a hero to the Elven people, when really you're manipulating their trust because, well, you're evil. It's up to you to decide what your characters goals are, but remember to always do things to fulfill some sort of goal, rather than simply being a jerk to everyone because of your alignment descriptor.

This is the kind of crap you absolutely must not -ever- pull. "It's what my character would do," is an excuse, and a flimsy one at that, for being a d-bag. You make the character's decisions. If your character does something like that, you are the one being an asshat.

Intra-party conflict -can- be acceptable, if it's discussed before the game begins and even then it's a matter of conflicting, in-character goals not just the players being dill-weeds to each other.

This kind of crap is why the alignment system gets such a bad rep.

[ArcturusV]

Well, some good advice here. I've run a lot of Evil characters over my time, and a lot of Evil Characters that not only got along with the party, but were charismatic and were often liked by the NPCs of the world even as they were obviously evil.

There's a disconnect you need to make however to make this happen. Realize that the NPCs that WotC and others write up to be Chaotic Evil (Or the few times that they actually codify Chaotic Evil behavior such as the Paladin of Slaughter), rarely actually fits how Chaotic and Evil are defined as Alignments.

Evil alignments are defined almost entirely by being self serving. You do things for the purpose of advancing your own desires and causes. And what separates that from just "neutral" which also can be defined similarly, is that Neutral People tend to have both extended reach (I care about myself, my family, my home town, etc) and things they won't do (... yeah, I might pick up a silver piece that I find on the road rather than give to the guy who it obviously dropped from... but I'm not going to go slit his throat in cold blood to see if he has more on him). You're self-serving, and if you can get away with it, there's not really anything that's off your table as a possible option. Note that this doesn't mean you are stupid or sacrificing Long Term Rewards for Short Term Gains. This is one of the major pitfalls of "Evil" characters, is they'll do something like slit their party's throats when everyone is asleep to steal their gear, gaining a short term Wealth Boost... for the price of having no friends, no allies to watch their back, and when people figure out what he did (quite likely depending on the scenario), no one being willing to trust him again. And even morons, things like Animals with 1 Int, recognize the value in having someone you can trust to watch your back. Why would your would be super villain with 16 Int not realize that?

And Chaotic isn't really defined as being an insane, uncontrollable anarchist. Though that's often how Chaotic Evil NPCs are depicted. Chaotic means you are ruled by something other than Codes, Laws, Honor, Bushido, etc, etc, etc. One of the reasons I find the fact that the Paladins of Freedom and Slaughter have "Codes" insanely funny. Chaotic is the one alignment that is Anti-Code. So instead of playing things like knee jerk Anarchists (He gave an order! SHANK HIM!) with every authority figure, law, or code you run into, or playing bat**** insane, incapable of rational thought (Really, it's not as fun as it may sound), you go with something else.

If Lawful people are defined not by "Follows all laws that some guy with a fancy bejeweled hat who lives in a pile of rocks decrees" (Protip: They aren't), but defined as people who live their life by a rigid and often impersonal Code, guided by strict ideals.... what would Chaotic be? Someone who adapts, changes, and lives by whim. You let your emotional state determine what is the right and wrong way to interact with the world. You follow your gut feelings. You let your experiences, rather than a code of morality, determine how you respond to people.

So when you combine it, what you get is someone who is self serving (Though not at the point of irrationally burning down all bridges for minor profits), willing to keep all options on the table, and who interacts with the world based on whim, emotion, and experiences. This would be the essence of Chaotic Evil.

Which means you don't have to be "just a jerk", or go around kicking Orphans and burning down Dog Houses, or killing anyone who has even an iota of authority.

It's very possible to be "Just a jerk" with that alignment. Think of general asshats you may know in reality who will do anything if it means getting what they want, and don't really think twice about breaking laws, screwing over their supposed "friends", and are generally unpredictable and unreliable people. Yes, they would be Chaotic Evil.

But you can also be something else. You can have friends, family, etc. You can be the silver tongued bastard who is always surrounded by friends that you collect like Pokemon because they make you feel better about yourself, and you love the adoration they give you, being a Social Chameleon who basically mimics whatever you're around to fit in, drawing people into your web. Perfectly Chaotic Evil.

You could also be something like the unscrupulous merchant who feels no compunction against cheating your customers, suppliers, and contacts. Doing whatever you can to flip as big a profit as you can at the moment. Traveling from town to town leaving a wake of angry, and poorer, people behind you. Also Chaotic Evil.

You can be the guy who gets off on just "Seeing if I can". The ultimate thrill seeker type. One month you might be in a town trying to foster some evil cult to Graz'zt just to see if you can get away with trying to do it. You don't really care, it's just a game to you, to see if you can dupe other people, the Law, the Good Guys, even morons who might sell their souls to Demons. ANother month you might try to steal the Royal Widget of Shininess from the local big wig, just because everyone says that no one could ever steal it. You might go and kick a werebear square in the nuts, just because someone bet you 20 gp that your non Improved Unarmed Strike self would be able to do so and get away with it. This sort of behavior is also Chaotic Evil, particularly if you don't care what you do, or the lengths you'll go to, just to get your next thrill.

And none of these really poses too much of a problem with running with a party. You're not going to be the guy who everyone wants to murder in his sleep. Well... maybe the last example if you are doing it far too often in a disruptive manner. Being the guy who pisses off the Lady of Pain so everyone gets mazed instead of doing the adventure of the Day level disruption.

[Cirrylius]

Remember, too, that you can play Affable Evil; someone who is otherwise normal, except that they're willing to do stuff others aren't in order to satisfy their drives. Just because you're willing to steal an orphanage's poor box doesn't mean you necessarily want to laugh about it afterwards, or that you'll automatically want to kill someone who mouths off to you, or that you'll cut up that wench you picked up in the tavern. And the happier your character is with the status quo (local culture, PC group dynamics, long-term goals) the less evil they'll look, because they have no real reason to change things. Since it's big in public consciousness right now, I'll point out Bronn and Jamie from GoT as Neutral Evil; they're pretty companionable. Everybody I could peg as Chaotic Evil from GoT is pretty caricaturish, though, so that's the best I got.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Well what makes him evil? Being evil doesn't mean your a jerk to friends and allies or even people in general. It means your ruthless but it doesn't mean your ruthless to everyone.

Here's how you play evil there are no underhanded tactics, you don't believe in giving surrendering foes mercy or quarter unless they can prove they are more valuable alive. If the enemy takes a hostage you have little remorse shooting the hostage to get to your quarry.(unless killing the hostage is sure to come back to haunt you.) If taking a hostage will help you accomplish your goal you'll do it.

Think of it this way, A Mafia soldier will beat someone up after breakfast, torture another man after lunch and kill another man before going home to his wife and kids for dinner. Your friendly and cordial to the party because you have to trust them to watch your back or maybe they are your friends.

[Captain Kablam]

I've always treated acting any of the evil characters as such.

Lawful Evil is essentially out to seek power through the legitimacy and by right, and not through the simple seizing through force, although sometimes necessary. While evil, they do not hide the fact, and they are true to themselves and their word. They will sacrifice lives, but not their principles.

Neurtal Evil: A greedy prick. The world is theirs and screw anyone who gets in the way of that idea. They seem themselves as the hero in their own story, justifying their actions.

Chaotic Evil: Just likes to hurt people. Prone to addictions such as drugs, the act of arson, murder. But what really gets them off is power and destruction. They just want to watch things burn.

[Rhynn]

This is the kind of crap you absolutely must not -ever- pull. "It's what my character would do," is an excuse, and a flimsy one at that, for being a d-bag. You make the character's decisions. If your character does something like that, you are the one being an asshat.

Intra-party conflict -can- be acceptable, if it's discussed before the game begins and even then it's a matter of conflicting, in-character goals not just the players being dill-weeds to each other.

This kind of crap is why the alignment system gets such a bad rep.

Also, why would the other players ever keep a companion like Kevingway describes around? The other players are acting out-of-character in keeping your Evil, backstabbing ass in the group to begin with. Acting like a douchebag in return is pretty low. If you're going to act that way, just save everyone the time, trouble, and annoyance and don't play that character.

[Kevingway]

Wooh, I earned a bad reputation! Let me clarify by stating that my example is a scenario for a specific type of campaign where each person cares more about roleplaying than plot development (following a linear story) and aren't too dedicated to their characters (expecting to die). This is the archtype of the power-hungry individual, utilizing any means necessary to gain what he desires and eliminating people who stand in his way (such as another player character who may desire the same loot).

I usually stick to these sorts of things, though not if people would truly be offended by it if it's what my character would actually do (otherwise, take everyone else's advice and don't do it). PvP isn't a very popular thing in DnD, but to me personally, and a few of my friends, it adds an interesting twist to things, especially when there are varying alignments in the party. If you don't do it in subtle ways, conflict arises, and if you do it in subtle ways, unavoidable conflict arises--that's a discussion to have with everyone beforehand, instead of doing like what someone else mentioned in a different thread that just sprung up in the past day or so, keeping it between the DM and yourself.

Sorry if that was hugely controversial!

[big teej]

So I'm starting a new 3.5 game soon and want to play something out of the box, so I decided on a Chaotic Evil rogue. But as I got around to thinking about how to play it, I started thinking of the character as sort of just immensely rude.

Now I know that Evil people are supposed to not care about other people's feelings, but it starts to feel like you're being a jerk for the sake of being a jerk, and I don't know how well the rest of the party will respond to someone doing that.

Basically I'm looking for a little guidance as to how to play Evil without upsetting everyone else at the table.

I don't recall who said it, but someone on this forum summed it up fairly well.

looking out for #1 isn't Evil, it's neutral.
Looking out for #1, while brutally crushing #2 is evil.

^^this is by no means exhaustive.


that said, to return to your question, if your character is simply a ginormic prick to people, he is not evil. evil is malicious, hurtful, and destructive.

me for example, I'm a thoroughly unpleasant individual in person, and pride myself on such. but I am not evil, no matter how vicious a barb I toss someone's way.

but!

if those barbs ever shifted from targets of opportunity to a purposeful dismantling of someone's self-esteem and image, THIS is evil.

the example that springs to mind, likely because of my most recent job, is this

the class clown: picks on everyone equally (or close to it), neutral
the school bully: picks on those incapable of defending themselves, has a few select targets, 'hits below the belt' - evil.

/ramble.

[hamishspence]

So when you combine it, what you get is someone who is self serving (Though not at the point of irrationally burning down all bridges for minor profits), willing to keep all options on the table, and who interacts with the world based on whim, emotion, and experiences. This would be the essence of Chaotic Evil.

Which means you don't have to be "just a jerk", or go around kicking Orphans and burning down Dog Houses, or killing anyone who has even an iota of authority.

It's very possible to be "Just a jerk" with that alignment. Think of general asshats you may know in reality who will do anything if it means getting what they want, and don't really think twice about breaking laws, screwing over their supposed "friends", and are generally unpredictable and unreliable people. Yes, they would be Chaotic Evil.

But you can also be something else. You can have friends, family, etc. You can be the silver tongued bastard who is always surrounded by friends that you collect like Pokemon because they make you feel better about yourself, and you love the adoration they give you, being a Social Chameleon who basically mimics whatever you're around to fit in, drawing people into your web. Perfectly Chaotic Evil.

You could also be something like the unscrupulous merchant who feels no compunction against cheating your customers, suppliers, and contacts. Doing whatever you can to flip as big a profit as you can at the moment. Traveling from town to town leaving a wake of angry, and poorer, people behind you. Also Chaotic Evil.

You can be the guy who gets off on just "Seeing if I can". The ultimate thrill seeker type. One month you might be in a town trying to foster some evil cult to Graz'zt just to see if you can get away with trying to do it. You don't really care, it's just a game to you, to see if you can dupe other people, the Law, the Good Guys, even morons who might sell their souls to Demons. ANother month you might try to steal the Royal Widget of Shininess from the local big wig, just because everyone says that no one could ever steal it. You might go and kick a werebear square in the nuts, just because someone bet you 20 gp that your non Improved Unarmed Strike self would be able to do so and get away with it. This sort of behavior is also Chaotic Evil, particularly if you don't care what you do, or the lengths you'll go to, just to get your next thrill.

This, in a nutshell. With the proviso that some Evil characters do care about friends and family for real.

[ArcturusV]

*shrug* I don't think that having differing alignments is an unavoidable path to Conflict. I mean, yes, it's happened to me when I've played Evil PCs. But it's the exception rather than the Rule. And the only reason it even happened was that the "Good" PC was actually far more blatantly evil than my Evil PC (Contracted Demons to try to usurp a kingdom in a bloody demonic coup, awoken ancient dragons to be his personal hit squad, used Enchantments to make people into his puppets, was trying to imprison and steal the divinity of one of the few Good Deities in the setting...) for which my Evil PC eventually put him down, treating him like a rabid dog.

But just because I'm Lawful Evil, and someone else is Lawful Good, doesn't mean we're gonna fight. Hell, we can be bestest friends, sure.

[Captain Kablam]

Well the only odd man out is Chaotic Evil . Most Neutral Evil guys are just lookin for a big score, which works well with most adventures, and presents some fairly neat characters (Scarface). Lawful Evil Doubly so, not so much interested in wealth as they are power. However, unlike the other two evils, they are more self aware of their wickedness and how it looks to the others, this make them cautious with their alliances, cautious but not cowardly.

[Cirrylius]

looking out for #1 isn't Evil, it's neutral.
Looking out for #1, while brutally crushing #2 is evil.

I've always felt more that looking out for #1 is neutral- looking out for number 1, exclusively, callously, without exception, particularly at the expense of others, is evil.