Minor Image trick - I'm a powerful diety, bow to me!

[BenShums]

I'm thinking of pulling off this trick in my next session:

Next time my party is battling, I'm want to cast minor image to create the image of a diety, and place it over myself so that I'm hidden inside (this requires that the diety is sufficiently larger than me; I'm medium). Next, as I'm concentrating on maintaining the image, with as much gusto I can manage I shout, "I am <insert diety name>!" and then one of the following:
- Lay down, or I shall kill all of you!
- Flee, or I shall kill all of you!
- I shall kill all of you unless you Fight each other to the death! The winner shall be rewarded beyond his wildest imagination!

In order to do this I need to know:
1. the diety that they worship
2. what that diety looks like (including its size (which is important because if it's too big I can't cast it))

So I have two questions:
1. Should I put skills in Knowledge Religion, in order for my character to know what diety they worship? Or is it pretty obvious who worships who in D&D?
2. Where can I see pictures of these dieties (or at least of their manifestations, since they don't take form unless they manifest) along with a description of their manifestation size?

[Flickerdart]

"Figments cannot make something seem to be something else." Doesn't work. You also wouldn't sound like the deity at all.

[thethird]

You might also want to have epic modifiers of bluff...

There are some deity representations in deities and demigods although they are pretty.

[BenShums]

"Figments cannot make something seem to be something else." Doesn't work. You also wouldn't sound like the deity at all.

I guess the workaround is to be standing behind the diety so that they can't see you.

If, at best, they get a Will Disbelief, it's still a powerful trick. Suppose for example you're talking to 5 enemies and only 1 believes the trick, for at least one round you could have him attack his allies, until the next round rolls around and then he has to do a will disbelief again.

Since the sound is coming from behind the diety, and not inside of it, would that increase their bonuses against the will disbelief? and by how much?

Finally, why can't you make the inside of the diety hollow, then you're not technically making me seem like something else, you're just covering something around me. The same thing occurs, for example, if I place the image of a box over an item.

[BenShums]

Again though, does anyone know where I can get the sizes of diety manifestations?

[Flickerdart]

The best you can do is use the illusion to maybe get a circumstance bonus on your bluff, but just because a big ol' deity appeared and told them to do something doesn't mean they're going to drop everything they're doing and obey unless they're zealous beyond a reasonable extent.

[Blackhawk748]

I would try Deities and Demigods, and i once pulled this trick on some gnolls, but i used major image and ghost sounds. I got them to help us fight a dragon that was in an adjoining ruin.

[MrNobody]

The trick is good but i won't use it in battle... better save it fo circumstances in which you have the time to add more details, such using "ventriloquism" or "the spell i can't recall the name" that allows your voice to be louder than normal.

For image and size of deites take a look to "Deities and Demigods". The give size in the stats of gods it's a mere suggestion: almost all deities have the divine power to change their size at will, from the smallest to the tallest.
Even if she is an halfling deity, an angry Elhonna could want to manifest as colossal to better intimidate their followers.

[Slipperychicken]

Sounds like the kind of thing every rookie mage with the Image spells on his list would try to pull. It's insulting in how unbelievable it is.

It's about as clever and original as crying out "LOOK, A MONKEY!", and hoping they keep their backs turned long enough for you to steal the entire contents of their kingdom. If I were DMing it, only the dumbest peasant would believe such nonsense.

[Blackhawk748]

you would think they would do it more often, but ive only ever done it once and i play sorcerers pretty often, and it was gnolls, who aren't exactly renowned for being smart, and i did happen to know what Yeenoghu (thank you Knowledge Religion) and they hadnt seen the party yet. But yes i wouldnt do this in combat, because at best it might serve as a slight dictraction

[Slipperychicken]

you would think they would do it more often

Well, more like the kind of thing everyone thinks of, but then dismisses as ridiculous :smallbiggrin:

The average Gnoll is 8 Int. That's a -1 on INT checks, while a human (Int 10-11) has a +0 on them.. and the rolls are made with a d20. I guarantee you wouldn't even notice that difference without seeing the ability score. I'd say that's smart enough to know Pelor didn't wander into your house and start demanding your jewelry.

[Fyermind]

I never know what to expect from the burning hate.

[KillianHawkeye]

Even if she is an halfling deity, an angry Elhonna could want to manifest as colossal to better intimidate their followers.

Nitpick: Elhonna isn't a halfling deity! She is a nature goddess who normally appears as either a human or an elf.

[Metahuman1]

Try something other then a deity that they'd still listen too/not want to fight for some reason.

[inuyasha]

*cough cough the game is called dungeons and dragons cough cough*
Dragons are scary, take the form of one, it would be easier to do I think (or maybe Im stupiding again :p)

[Lateral]

Nitpick: Elhonna isn't a halfling deity! She is a nature goddess who normally appears as either a human or an elf.
Further nitpick: It's Ehlonna.

Also, maybe he was thinking Yondalla?


*cough cough the game is called dungeons and dragons cough cough*
Dragons are scary, take the form of one, it would be easier to do I think (or maybe Im stupiding again :p)
Definitely done that before. It'll only work if you really make a show out of it (and some ranks in Bluff never hurt anyone), but I once scared off the better part of an army by tricking them into thinking that I had ritually summoned a horde of dragons.

[Slipperychicken]

*cough cough the game is called dungeons and dragons cough cough*
Dragons are scary, take the form of one, it would be easier to do I think (or maybe Im stupiding again :p)

Illusions, like Bluffs, can be amazing for accomplishing goals... as long as you can put some thought and creativity into it.

The trick is, you want to make sure the lie is close enough to the listener's existing ideas and expectations that he doesn't question it. Try to make sure it's plausible, and fits in with the context.

For example, in an enchanted forest, a flock of dragons might be scarier, but a pack of bears, or silent elven rangers would be more believable. In a city, the captain of the watch and his bodyguards might be extremely intimidating, but a two-man patrol might be enough to scare off most thugs.

[Flickerdart]

The problem with things like dragons is that they have a fear aura, and when the enemy isn't soiling themselves in fright, they're going to wonder what's up.

[Jeff the Green]

The problem with things like dragons is that they have a fear aura, and when the enemy isn't soiling themselves in fright, they're going to wonder what's up.

Which is why you have them appear on the horizon so they have time to run away.

[Flickerdart]

Which is why you have them appear on the horizon so they have time to run away.
That's a hell of a range you would have to have on your spells. Or I suppose you could be trying to fake perspective, but you can only do that from one angle, so facing multiple enemies won't work, and if you are facing a single enemy you still have to guess on the fly how to do it correctly, which even a genius-level intellect would have a lot of trouble with.

[Slipperychicken]

That's a hell of a range you would have to have on your spells. Or I suppose you could be trying to fake perspective, but you can only do that from one angle, so facing multiple enemies won't work, and if you are facing a single enemy you still have to guess on the fly how to do it correctly, which even a genius-level intellect would have a lot of trouble with.

Also hope he doesn't move around too much. And hope your illusion blends perfectly with the rest of the landscape from his angle.

[Blackhawk748]

i once created a dragon with an illusion, i blew a horn that was magic (it was a horn of major image) and i made a full sized black dragon at the peak of my range above me, and then it landed behind me, at which time i fired an acidic lightning bolt at the same time it pretended to breath acid. watching a few of their friends die clinched it for most of them and they ran.

BTW it was about a dozen orcs led by an ogre

[Jeff the Green]

That's a hell of a range you would have to have on your spells. Or I suppose you could be trying to fake perspective, but you can only do that from one angle, so facing multiple enemies won't work, and if you are facing a single enemy you still have to guess on the fly how to do it correctly, which even a genius-level intellect would have a lot of trouble with.

The range of silent image is 400' + 40'/level. Reach Spell doubles that.

It's actually remarkably hard to judge distance and size of things that are flying against the sky at that distance, particularly if you artfully blur the image. If the observers are really spread out, you might have a problem because of perspective, but all that will do is give them the impression that the dragon is flying in a slightly different direction from a slightly different place.

[Vastly]

Using illusions in this way is where having a ridiculous Bluff skill is important. To pass off an unbelievable lie as truth, you take a -20 on your check, which for most equates to a near auto failure. But if you're like my Bluffomancer and have a +30 bluff skill, you still have a +10, which is still reliable enough to pull off some pretty spectacular bluffs.

"I am the chosen of these lands, the champion of all deities! And as such have the power to call an avatar in their name to aid me in battle, flee now or face divine wrath!"

Follow that up with an impressive looking, glowing, representation of the the deity and they might decide it's better to run, on the off chance that is the avatar of a god. It's not the believability of the illusion or lie that's important, but rather your ability to convince others to believe them. Even smart, strong willed individuals could fall for such a ruse if you're convincing enough (aka they fail their save against the illusion and their sense motive against your bluff).


It's actually remarkably hard to judge distance and size of things that are flying against the sky at that distance, particularly if you artfully blur the image. If the observers are really spread out, you might have a problem because of perspective, but all that will do is give them the impression that the dragon is flying in a slightly different direction from a slightly different place.

This statement doesn't make sense to me, as I've always viewed illusions as basically creating a super realistic 3D hologram, that appears to be completely real until proven otherwise (disbelieving). Perspective and positioning of individuals would be irrelevant. If positioning for perspective is important to an illusion, it's utterly useless as a spell, and only skilled artists would have a chance at using it well. Perspective on a 2D surface requires a sweet spot, and any deviation from that single location makes the image look skewed, stretched or compressed. Any artist can tell you that pulling off perspective is very difficult to do correctly, illusionists would be screwed.

[Chronos]

The spell handles all of the perspective automatically, like a hologram, if the things you're making images of are within the range. If you try to use the magical illusion within the range to create an optical illusion of something that appears to be further away, then you have to muck around with perspective and such.

And just remember for all of these illusions: It doesn't take a very powerful spellcaster to produce a Minor Image, and most people probably know that. The folks you're trying to convince might have seen a traveling performer pull off something similar at the festival last year. So your audience has to ask themselves, which is more likely, that an avatar of their god is visiting them personally, or that there's just another traveling performer pulling a trick on them.

[Vastly]

It doesn't take a very powerful spellcaster to produce a Minor Image, and most people probably know that. The folks you're trying to convince might have seen a traveling performer pull off something similar at the festival last year.

Magic in most campaign settings, even high magic ones, is not generally well understood or known amongst common folk. You're taking common player knowledge of the mechanics of the game and making it into common knowledge for inhabitants of the setting. Just because an individual saw someone use illusions in a performance doesn't automatically mean that all magical illusions are suddenly easily disbelieved for them. We're talking about a world in which individuals can shoot fire from their finger tips, summon very powerful creatures to their aid, and veritably alter reality. A person who is not versed in spellcraft or knowledge (arcana) would have no idea how or what a caster did to make a deity appear, nor would they have any idea how powerful any particular spellcaster is. Could they think it was a ruse? Sure, it's certainly unlikely, but that's what the bluff skill is for, convincing someone that your illusion is indeed as it appears and not just a trick.

For example, depending on where you live, things like cars, the internet and cellphones are pretty common, but most people are ignorant on how these things actually work. People can use them, or benefit from them, but for the most part lack solid knowledge of the technology they're using. Also, remember that unlike today, your average person in these magic using settings spread news by word of mouth or printed media (newspapers/letters), the spread of "common" knowledge is both slower and has very limited reach. They have no internet, television or even radio to quickly broadcast news.

Short: The inner workings of magic is not common knowledge.

[MukkTB]

It doesn't matter if the inner workings of magic is common knowledge. It matters if the outer workings of magic is common knowledge.

If I took a speaker somewhere and programmed it to shout that I was a god most people wouldn't understand the technical workings. However I would be hard pressed to find people anywhere in the world today backward and credulous enough to believe I was a god. It wouldn't matter if they understood the technical background or not.

What matters in this hypothetical scenario is how the hypothetical peasant/low level dude would contextualize the problem.

Scenario 1 - Only a handful of wizards in the world.
"I've never seen anything like this. It must be a god."

Scenario 2 - Low level magic is common.
"I saw that done better by a bard at the inn last year. He got the teeth and the voice right."

Scenario 3 - In the local region the clerics of some religion have a monopoly on magic.
"Oh ****. Even if this isn't god I'm up against someone with the backing of a god."

Scenario 4 - Some magic exists.
"I'm going to be careful and spend a minute examining this. Who knows what's going on?"

Scenario 5 - Its a high magic setting.
"Goddamn these casters with their first level illusions. 98 of them are weak fakers. Whats worse is the 99th who's a powerful wizard ******* around before he melts you. And then the 100th one turns out to be a god and damns you to hell for not believing in them."

Scenario 6 - The Gods are really involved in the world.
"Either that's god or its an illusionist about to take a lightning bolt from the big guy for his disrespect."

In this case context matters.

[Slipperychicken]

Magic in most campaign settings, even high magic ones, is not generally well understood or known amongst common folk.



We're talking about a world in which individuals can shoot fire from their finger tips, summon very powerful creatures to their aid, and veritably alter reality.

Can't have it both ways there. Magic is either a thing which people know and are used to, or it isn't. Either way, you know illusions of crazy things are much more common than the things themselves. It would create a sort of in-universe "metagame" where illusionists need to keep their illusions believable (lest people dismiss him as a lowlife enchanter), or somehow take advantage of the disillusionment. Like you'd know the guy who can conjure armies of demons wouldn't have been trying to scam coppers off a bartender, for example.

[Chronos]

The question isn't "are third-level spellcasters common"-- Maybe they are, maybe they aren't. It's "are third-level spellcasters more common than manifestations of divine avatars", and in almost all settings, that one's an overwhelming yes.

[ArcturusV]

Yeah, you're better off going with something subtle in most cases. Like... Elistraee, she's known to show her boons and favor by making the sound of a Hunter's Horn in the distance. This is a trick that you can easily do with Ghost Sound. It's also one that followers of the Goddess would recognize. And enemies of the Goddess might fear and get properly rattled thinking reinforcements or Divine Smiting is coming. Then you parlay something like that into a Bluff/Intimidate as needed.

When you start thinking things like "A dragon appears" it's a good time to sit back with your illusionist and think again. As Hollywood would point out, the scariest monster isn't one you show, it's one you don't show. The imaginations of the audience creates horrors far beyond your ability to put forth before their eyes.

So rather than overt things, you go for the subtle. Instead of making a Dragon appear on the horizon, show something like a fire breath mark of burned forest, slagged stones, still smoking fresh... a few claw tracks from where the dragon took off and landed, broken branches where it broke through the canopy. You put all the evidence of "A dragon is in the area, possibly hunting as it just blasted stuff", and let the targets of your illusions come to those conclusions on their own.

[Boogastreehouse]

I think my posts look nicer with a little space at the top and bottom.

You know who hates being impersonated? Well, just about everyone... but the answer I'm looking for is gods.


You know what sort of entity is usually automatically* aware of someone speaking their name and talking about them? Gods. Gods are listening for their names all day long. That's what you do when you when your diet is prayers.

I can't imagine a worse type of being to impersonate, frankly, and if a DM let you commit this sort of identity theft and didn't have the god immediately melt your soul in as horrifyingly gruesome and public a manner as possible as a warning to other blasphemers, that DM should be fired.



*settings may vary, I suppose.

I think my posts look nicer with a little space at the top and bottom.

[Slipperychicken]

Hunter's Horn in the distance.


[NPC fails Knowledge (Religion) check]

"Jus some hun'ers. Betcha they won' even 'ear yer screams."

----
Scenario 2:

[NPC makes Knowledge (Religion) check]

[sarcastically, smiling] "I betcha da goddes' wants ya real ded laddie. Lil prick prolly defiled er temples"

[ArcturusV]

Entirely possible. Though if I'm dealing with Elistraee followers (Or enemies), more likely to work than popping up the big girl herself right out of nowhere.

[Slipperychicken]

if I'm dealing with Elistraee followers

As I ninja-edited in a full minute after your post, they might think the goddess is on their side, particularly if things are about to come to blows.

[ArcturusV]

Yeah. Depends on so many particulars, and even DM attitudes. But I think subtle tends to work out better.