Defense of the True Necromancer

[Zonbitara]

So, I've been lurking for a while, and it seems that whenever someone brings up the True Necromancer class, it's met with countless hostilities. Now, having been playing the game for a 5 years, I am not as adept with the rules as many here might be, but I just can't help but seeing the flaws in many of the arguments being made against this class. Now I'm not saying this is the best class ever, I'm just saying that this class is good for what it's aiming to be. Now let's begin the debunking.

Agrument #1: the Death Domain is a wasted slot
Counter: Well, I have none. It is a rather useless domain, but the Touch of Death is kind of fun against low-level things.

Argument #2: You're better playing as a Mystic Theurge
Counter: Not really. The two classes have the same HD, the same Skill Points, the same spells, the same... pretty much everything. They both require you to do second level Arcane and Divine spells, but only the true necromancer gets the benefits. The only drawback is that you have to take Spell Focus Necromancy. And- if you're a sorcerer, it does take up a 2nd level spell slot...

Argument #3: It makes you miss out on 9th Level Spells
Not really. You may be 1 or 2 spell levels behind of same level casters, but you still get to cast 9th-level spells by level 20 (Just not the max count). It's not a big deal as though many 9th-level spells are useful, not many of them are on a frequent basis.

There are a few more arguments like "If you're going to be a combat caster, go all out!" and the "Benefits don't outweigh the costs" which is primarily subjective. If you have any counterarguments to my counterarguments, I want to hear them. Just don't be a **** about it like nearly everyone I've talked to about this on the internet.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

You're mistaken, it does not get 9th level spells.

Its first, second, sixth, and seventh levels only advance one of your casting classes, not both. Assuming you enter with the intended Wizard 3/ Cleric 3, at 20th level you cast as a Wizard 15 and as a Cleric 15.

If you use some sort of early qualification shenanigans and manage something like Cleric 1/ Wizard 4 into it, you'll get Cleric 13 and Wizard 17 casting, barely reaching 9th level spells at level 20. In this case you may as well go with a Mystic Theurge early entry build, and only be one level behind in your primary class so it gets 9th level spells at 18th.

The class features are laughable, every one of them is replaced with a spell you would have had by the time you gain it as a class feature.

[Silva Stormrage]

Biffoniacus has the CL thing accurate. You are strictly better going with Mystic Theurge. The only benefit that True Necromancer has over it is that it progresses rebuke undead (A VASTLY underrated class feature), but frankly its worse than that then a full cleric too since you need 3 wizard levels as well.

The main problem I have with it is that it simply doesn't do anything beneficial for you. It is a worse minionmancer necromancer than a full cleric and a worse debuffer necromancer than a wizard necromancer. With early entry tricks it becomes better but mystic theurge does it pretty much better in all aspects.

The only beneficial aspect is that it is the one PRC that progresses arcane casting, divine casting and rebuke undead to my knowledge.

Copying from the Revised Necromancer's Handbook

Top Ten Reasons True Necromancers Are Bad

1. At 14th level, you are five caster levels behind in both classes, so if the party Fighter took Leadership, and his cohort got Leadership, he’d actually be bringing more Necromancy to the table than you. As a fighter.
2. You have to take the Death Domain as a Necromancer Cleric, which is a waste of a Domain Slot when you are trying to be good at Necromancy.
3. In the early levels, you postpone your access to Animate Dead by 4 levels.
4. At 8th level a True Necromancer can create, but not control Ghouls. A Cleric at that level can control but not create Ghouls. Guess which is better? At 11th level, the True Necromancer gets the ability to control Ghouls, and the Cleric gets the ability to create them, so there’s no point at which this is advantageous.
5. The only unique ability of the True Necromancer class is unimpressive. Desecrate is a great spell, but it’s also a second level spell.
6. True Necromancers eventually get a bonus to Rebuking – at 17th level they have a +1 bonus to their Rebuking level. But at 7th level they have a 3 level penalty to their Rebuking level. So at low levels when rebuking is good they can’t use it, and at high levels when Rebuking doesn’t matter they don’t care.
7. True Necromancers are always going to have underwhelming Save DCs. Between MAD and the fact that they are often forced to use spells that are 3 spell levels lower than what the single-classed casters can use, they’re going to be out enough Save DC that it shows. A lot.
8. As a True Necromancer you have all the disadvantages of both a Cleric (the gods can take away all your spellcasting at any time), and a Wizard (you have Arcane Spell Failure, preventing you from wearing good armor). Also, your BAB and HPs stink when compared to a Cleric.
9. Control pools from Animate Dead actually don’t accumulate between your two classes. It’ right in the spell, if you cast the spell it considers all undead you control from all castings of Animate Dead, not just your Arcane or just your Divine castings of the spell. Some people say differently, and some even quote CustServ, but when was the last time you won an argument with your DM using the line "some guy on a board said that CustServ told him....."?
10. There is almost no synergy between Cleric and Wizard Necromancy. Any synergy you desperately want to find could be replicated by just taking the Apprentice feat at first level and having some Use Magic Device. Get yourself a couple of Wizard Scrolls or something. It’s a better buy than setting 5 caster levels on fire. Smart cookies can even get the right spell effects off monsters for free, no less.

[Rhynn]

It's not a big deal as though many 9th-level spells are useful, not many of them are on a frequent basis.

Can you explain how spells like astral projection, energy drain, etherealness, mass heal, miracle, implosion, true resurrection, foresight, dominate monster, shapechange, time stop, and wish aren't useful on a frequent basis?

Foresight, time stop, and shapechange are absolute staples, and the latter two especially let you absolutely wreck encounters. Astral projection makes you near-invincible (you project, then re-enter the plane you're on, and when you get "killed" you just wake up).

[Karnith]

The one thing that a True Necromancer can do well (if you're willing to stretch the term a bit) is abuse the caster level boosts the class gives you; this old thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=273724) had some fun ideas for it, using either Sha'ir to get spells way ahead of schedule (though it'd really work better with Mystic Theurge), or Theurgic Specialist to basically double your CL for necromancy spells.

That said, having actually played True Necromancers in games before, I would really, really recommend against anyone ever using it as written. They are gimped compared to equal-level spellcasters at all levels even with early-entry shenanigans, because losing caster levels is built into the class. Playing one is extremely painful if you actually need to go through the lower levels, especially if you can't use early entry tricks (Second level spells at 8th level? So good!). And the payoff isn't worth it, frankly; it's mostly just replicating spells that you could cast if you hadn't made the terrible decision to be a True Necromancer. At least the Yathrinshee (the other laughably bad necromantic theurge class) gets cool class features.

[Zonbitara]

Biffoniacus has the CL thing accurate. You are strictly better going with Mystic Theurge. The only benefit that True Necromancer has over it is that it progresses rebuke undead (A VASTLY underrated class feature), but frankly its worse than that then a full cleric too since you need 3 wizard levels as well.

The main problem I have with it is that it simply doesn't do anything beneficial for you. It is a worse minionmancer necromancer than a full cleric and a worse debuffer necromancer than a wizard necromancer. With early entry tricks it becomes better but mystic theurge does it pretty much better in all aspects.

The only beneficial aspect is that it is the one PRC that progresses arcane casting, divine casting and rebuke undead to my knowledge.

Copying from the Revised Necromancer's Handbook

Top Ten Reasons True Necromancers Are Bad

1. At 14th level, you are five caster levels behind in both classes, so if the party Fighter took Leadership, and his cohort got Leadership, he’d actually be bringing more Necromancy to the table than you. As a fighter.
2. You have to take the Death Domain as a Necromancer Cleric, which is a waste of a Domain Slot when you are trying to be good at Necromancy.
3. In the early levels, you postpone your access to Animate Dead by 4 levels.
4. At 8th level a True Necromancer can create, but not control Ghouls. A Cleric at that level can control but not create Ghouls. Guess which is better? At 11th level, the True Necromancer gets the ability to control Ghouls, and the Cleric gets the ability to create them, so there’s no point at which this is advantageous.
5. The only unique ability of the True Necromancer class is unimpressive. Desecrate is a great spell, but it’s also a second level spell.
6. True Necromancers eventually get a bonus to Rebuking – at 17th level they have a +1 bonus to their Rebuking level. But at 7th level they have a 3 level penalty to their Rebuking level. So at low levels when rebuking is good they can’t use it, and at high levels when Rebuking doesn’t matter they don’t care.
7. True Necromancers are always going to have underwhelming Save DCs. Between MAD and the fact that they are often forced to use spells that are 3 spell levels lower than what the single-classed casters can use, they’re going to be out enough Save DC that it shows. A lot.
8. As a True Necromancer you have all the disadvantages of both a Cleric (the gods can take away all your spellcasting at any time), and a Wizard (you have Arcane Spell Failure, preventing you from wearing good armor). Also, your BAB and HPs stink when compared to a Cleric.
9. Control pools from Animate Dead actually don’t accumulate between your two classes. It’ right in the spell, if you cast the spell it considers all undead you control from all castings of Animate Dead, not just your Arcane or just your Divine castings of the spell. Some people say differently, and some even quote CustServ, but when was the last time you won an argument with your DM using the line "some guy on a board said that CustServ told him....."?
10. There is almost no synergy between Cleric and Wizard Necromancy. Any synergy you desperately want to find could be replicated by just taking the Apprentice feat at first level and having some Use Magic Device. Get yourself a couple of Wizard Scrolls or something. It’s a better buy than setting 5 caster levels on fire. Smart cookies can even get the right spell effects off monsters for free, no less.

Top ten reasons why this post is BONK!
1. False. At worst, you are only 3 Caster levels behind other casters.
2. As said, I agree, but the ability to cast both arcane and divine spells makes up for it in most aspects, and the abilities do come in useful every so often.
3. Yes it does, can't argue there.
4. This depends on how you go about controlling them. A Rebuke doesn't work, but a good roll on a Command Undead spell would. (the DC a Ghoul would have to make is 10+2(spell level)+1(Necromantic Prowess bonus)+Int. Modifier(+5 in my case)+2(Necromatic Prowess) or a modified 20. Seeing how a ghoul's will save is +5, any roll lower than 15 will allow you to control it.
5. They also get Necromantic Prowess, a vastly underrated feat.
6. True.
7. That's false. Spell Save DC's are determined by Spell Level, not Caster Level. Even though you may be an epic level lich, the bonus you get to spell saves is still going to be low for low-level spells by this definition.
8. Same goes for Mystic Theurge, which by that article is 'better' than the true necromancer.
9. The author outright SAID that it's up to the DM, so why should it matter?
10. I don't understand it.

[TaiLiu]

1. False. At worst, you are only 3 Caster levels behind other casters.
Comrade, read the class table.

[Xervous]

I venture that he's thinking of taking practiced spellcaster so he's only 3 CL behind, but still 7 casting levels behind.

[TaiLiu]

I venture that he's thinking of taking practiced spellcaster so he's only 3 CL behind, but still 7 casting levels behind.
Perhaps. However, our comrade did say "at worst," and I'm assuming a feat doesn't factor into that.

I'm probably wrong.

[Chronos]

7. That's false. Spell Save DC's are determined by Spell Level, not Caster Level. Even though you may be an epic level lich, the bonus you get to spell saves is still going to be low for low-level spells by this definition.
And all of your spells are going to be low-level. The epic lich (with a single spellcasting class), by contrast, is going to have high-level spells available.

[Rhynn]

1. False. At worst, you are only 3 Caster levels behind other casters.

Without early entry shenanigans, you need to be Sor/Wiz 3 / Cleric 3 to enter.

Your caster levels as you progress through True Necromancer:
True Necromancer 1 (character level 7): Arcane 4 / Divine 3
True Necromancer 2 (character level 8): Arcane 4 / Divine 4
True Necromancer 3 (character level 9): Arcane 5 / Divine 5
True Necromancer 4 (character level 10): Arcane 6 / Divine 6
True Necromancer 5 (character level 11): Arcane 7 / Divine 7
True Necromancer 6 (character level 12): Arcane 8 / Divine 7
True Necromancer 7 (character level 13): Arcane 8 / Divine 8
True Necromancer 8 (character level 14): Arcane 9 / Divine 9
True Necromancer 9 (character level 15): Arcane 10 / Divine 10
True Necromancer 10 (character level 16): Arcane 11 / Divine 11
True Necromancer 11 (character level 17): Arcane 12 / Divine 12
True Necromancer 12 (character level 18): Arcane 13 / Divine 13
True Necromancer 13 (character level 19): Arcane 14 / Divine 14
True Necromancer 14 (character level 20): Arcane 15 / Divine 15

You are never less than 3 and 4 levels behind, and you fall behind more as you gain levels. Are you not seeing that at 1st, 2nd, 6th, and 7th level, you only increase one existing class (arcane at 1st and 6th, divine at 2nd and 7th), not both?

Can you explain your math for being only 3 CLs behind at worst? You're never even only 3 CLs behind, unless you're using early entry trickery.

True Necromancer 7 is the low point: you've got 4th/4th level spells while single-classed casters have 7th level spells. That is an enormous difference.


2. As said, I agree, but the ability to cast both arcane and divine spells makes up for it in most aspects, and the abilities do come in useful every so often.

It doesn't. Mystic theurges and other dual-casters are weak. In most games, they're not going to use all of their spell slots every day, and their spells are just plain weaker. Lower DCs, lower spell levels, etc.


5. They also get Necromantic Prowess, a vastly underrated feat.

Necromantic prowess increases their caster level so it is only slightly behind a single-caster (at True Necromancer 12/character level 18th, their necromancy spells are at CL 17th). That's only caster level, not spells available, and doesn't help with their poor DCs from having to increase two casting stats constantly.


7. That's false. Spell Save DC's are determined by Spell Level, not Caster Level. Even though you may be an epic level lich, the bonus you get to spell saves is still going to be low for low-level spells by this definition.

Silva Stormrage said the saves are going to suck because they are up to 3 levels behind in spell level (-3 DC) and because they are having to try to max out two ability scores, meaning they're usually left behind a single-stat caster there, too.


8. Same goes for Mystic Theurge, which by that article is 'better' than the true necromancer.

The mystic theurge is strictly better, yes. At character level 13th, a cleric 3/wizard 3/mystic theurge 7 is casting at arcane 10/divine 10, compared to the true necromancer's arcane 8/divine 8.


9. The author outright SAID that it's up to the DM, so why should it matter?

Because you can't just assume DMs are going to rule advantageously to you.


10. I don't understand it.

Cleric 20 or Wizard 20 with Use Magic Device is far better than Cleric 3/Wizard 3/True Necromancer 14, basically.


Top ten reasons why this post is BONK!

You didn't even disagree with three of them! :smallconfused:

[Than]

Top ten reasons why this post is BONK!
7. That's false. Spell Save DC's are determined by Spell Level, not Caster Level. Even though you may be an epic level lich, the bonus you get to spell saves is still going to be low for low-level spells by this definition.


Spell Save DC's are determined by Spell Level AND the modifier for your relevant Casting Ability Score. MAD (Multiple Attribute Dependant) means you need high scores in both Wisdom and Intelligence. Unless your DM gives you 18+ in every stat to begin with you either have to skimp out on other stats or reduce these to balance the others. The latter can cause you to have your spells resisted all day long.

Ninjas. Of course.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Top ten reasons why this post is BONK! Reading comprehension fail much?

1. False. At worst, you are only 3 Caster levels behind other casters.Not false. The first two levels of TN only advance one class or the other, not both. A wiz 3/clr 3/TN 2 casts as a 4th level wizard and a 4th level cleric at level 8. This happens again at TN levels 6 and 7 for a total of 5 levels behind on both sides from level 13 on.

2. As said, I agree, but the ability to cast both arcane and divine spells makes up for it in most aspects, and the abilities do come in useful every so often.The expanded versatility -would- be negligable, since anything a cleric's magic can do a wizard's can do better, except falling that far behind in casting ability means that you're, overall, less versatile than you would've been if you'd stuck to one or the other.

3. Yes it does, can't argue there.Good.

4. This depends on how you go about controlling them. A Rebuke doesn't work, but a good roll on a Command Undead spell would. (the DC a Ghoul would have to make is 10+2(spell level)+1(Necromantic Prowess bonus)+Int. Modifier(+5 in my case)+2(Necromatic Prowess) or a modified 20. Seeing how a ghoul's will save is +5, any roll lower than 15 will allow you to control it.Control undead is a fine spell, it's also a close range spell. With a 1 in 3 chance of failure (you counted necromantic prowess twice). On a target with a paralyzing attack. BTW, how did you afford to get your int to 20 when you have to buff wis too?

5. They also get Necromantic Prowess, a vastly underrated feat.Necromantic prowess isn't a feat. It's one of the TN class features.

6. True.Right.

7. That's false. Spell Save DC's are determined by Spell Level, not Caster Level. Even though you may be an epic level lich, the bonus you get to spell saves is still going to be low for low-level spells by this definition.What are you even talking about? The quoted post says 3 spell levels behind. That's a 15% difference for anything that's not a necromancy spell.

8. Same goes for Mystic Theurge, which by that article is 'better' than the true necromancer.There's an element of truth here, but the MT gives up a lot less for the privelage.

9. The author outright SAID that it's up to the DM, so why should it matter?That's very much -not- what he said. He said you could ask your DM to ignore RAW in favor of something custserv allegedly said.

10. I don't understand it.

He's talking about getting magic items to produce the hand full of spells that a necromancer wizard would use in the minionmaster angle. Apprentice (spellcaster), a feat in DMG2, gets you UMD for a class skill up through level 5 which would make the activation of wands and scrolls of said spells much easier. The second portion is probably in reference to capturing or creating undead that produce those spell effects without having to use any of the necromancer's daily resources at all.

[Jasdoif]

Comrade, read the class table.Huh...I never noticed that before, I just assumed the table in the book was messed up in the highlighting and the presence of slashes.

Well, to point this out for anyone who missed this like I had...True Necromancer only advances your arcane casting at levels 1 and 6; and only advances your divine casting at levels 2 and 7. So you end up two caster levels behind full progression on both. And the text specifically references the table, so "text-trumps-table" can't apply here even if the table were messed up.

Why it didn't employ the more sensical route of having dual progression on every level except 1 and 6, I have no idea....

[Rhynn]

And the text specifically references the table, so "text-trumps-table" can't apply here even if the table were messed up.

Yup. Specifically, the example character, Thredra Aranax, is a wizard (necromancer) 3/cleric 3/true necromancer 5 (character level 11), and casts at 7th and 7th level.


Why it didn't employ the more nonsensical route of having dual progression on every level except 1 and 6, I have no idea....

Well, see, the totally awesome class features are so awesome that... uh... are you buying this?

FWIF, in Complete Mage, the Ultimate Magus (sorcerer-wizard dual caster prestige class) only advances one class's casting (the lower) at 1st, 4th, and 7th levels.

I guess their logic is that Mystic Theurge is a perfect example of balance, therefore if a dual-caster prestige class gets class abilities, too, it has to lose casting levels.

But then Arcane Hierophant is strictly better than Mystic Theurge (better HD, better BAB) and gets class abilities and doesn't lose extra caster levels (+1/+1 at each level).

[SaintRidley]

True Necromancer. It's a bad, bad class. What it needs to be a decent choice in comparison to Theurge is to give it full dual progression and a class ability that specifically gives it separate control pools for Arcane and Divine uses of Animate Dead. Minimally. It also needs better class features. I can forgive a stupid domain choice as a requirement, but I would consider broadening that to be something along the lines of "Must have access to one of the following: the Death, Hunger, or Undeath domain."

I'd also tweak its casting stat issues to reduce MAD - make the True Necromancer pick from its casting stats at 1st level. One becomes the primary stat, the other secondary. The primary stat dictates save DCs. The secondary stat dictates what you get on the bonus spells per day table. Because you're theurging, the secondary doesn't matter all that much (your bonus spells are basically a class feature, so you can have the secondary stat be relatively low) and feel free to increase the primary. I'd do this for the Mystic Theurge as well. In the event you choose two classes with the same casting stat (and truly the same - not Wizard/Archivist, because Archivist already has this system with Int/Wis vs. the Wizard's Int/Int, so you get to do Int/Wis or Wis/Int with a Wiz/Arch theurge), you simply go as is.



But then Arcane Hierophant is strictly better than Mystic Theurge (better HD, better BAB) and gets class abilities and doesn't lose extra caster levels (+1/+1 at each level).

It is theoretically more restricted in its entry requirements, though. Of course, by restricted I mean "You're supposed to use Druid as your divine entry" which kind of negates that.

[RFLS]

Biffoniacus has the CL thing accurate. You are strictly better going with Mystic Theurge. The only benefit that True Necromancer has over it is that it progresses rebuke undead (A VASTLY underrated class feature), but frankly its worse than that then a full cleric too since you need 3 wizard levels as well.

The main problem I have with it is that it simply doesn't do anything beneficial for you. It is a worse minionmancer necromancer than a full cleric and a worse debuffer necromancer than a wizard necromancer. With early entry tricks it becomes better but mystic theurge does it pretty much better in all aspects.

The only beneficial aspect is that it is the one PRC that progresses arcane casting, divine casting and rebuke undead to my knowledge.

Copying from the Revised Necromancer's Handbook

Top Ten Reasons True Necromancers Are Bad

1. At 14th level, you are five caster levels behind in both classes, so if the party Fighter took Leadership, and his cohort got Leadership, he’d actually be bringing more Necromancy to the table than you. As a fighter.
2. You have to take the Death Domain as a Necromancer Cleric, which is a waste of a Domain Slot when you are trying to be good at Necromancy.
3. In the early levels, you postpone your access to Animate Dead by 4 levels.
4. At 8th level a True Necromancer can create, but not control Ghouls. A Cleric at that level can control but not create Ghouls. Guess which is better? At 11th level, the True Necromancer gets the ability to control Ghouls, and the Cleric gets the ability to create them, so there’s no point at which this is advantageous.
5. The only unique ability of the True Necromancer class is unimpressive. Desecrate is a great spell, but it’s also a second level spell.
6. True Necromancers eventually get a bonus to Rebuking – at 17th level they have a +1 bonus to their Rebuking level. But at 7th level they have a 3 level penalty to their Rebuking level. So at low levels when rebuking is good they can’t use it, and at high levels when Rebuking doesn’t matter they don’t care.
7. True Necromancers are always going to have underwhelming Save DCs. Between MAD and the fact that they are often forced to use spells that are 3 spell levels lower than what the single-classed casters can use, they’re going to be out enough Save DC that it shows. A lot.
8. As a True Necromancer you have all the disadvantages of both a Cleric (the gods can take away all your spellcasting at any time), and a Wizard (you have Arcane Spell Failure, preventing you from wearing good armor). Also, your BAB and HPs stink when compared to a Cleric.
9. Control pools from Animate Dead actually don’t accumulate between your two classes. It’ right in the spell, if you cast the spell it considers all undead you control from all castings of Animate Dead, not just your Arcane or just your Divine castings of the spell. Some people say differently, and some even quote CustServ, but when was the last time you won an argument with your DM using the line "some guy on a board said that CustServ told him....."?
10. There is almost no synergy between Cleric and Wizard Necromancy. Any synergy you desperately want to find could be replicated by just taking the Apprentice feat at first level and having some Use Magic Device. Get yourself a couple of Wizard Scrolls or something. It’s a better buy than setting 5 caster levels on fire. Smart cookies can even get the right spell effects off monsters for free, no less.

I feel like I've seen that list somewhere... Is it on the necromancer guidebook?

[PersonMan]

I feel like I've seen that list somewhere... Is it on the necromancer guidebook?

Seeing as "Copying from the Revised Necromancer's Handbook" is in the post?

Yes, probably.

[RFLS]

Seeing as "Copying from the Revised Necromancer's Handbook" is in the post?

Yes, probably.

...I'm just going to go hide in the Not-Paying-Attention corner. Next to the Dummy square.

[Karnith]

Why it didn't employ the more sensical route of having dual progression on every level except 1 and 6, I have no idea....
If I were going into True Necromancer 1 as a Wizard 3/Cleric 3, I would be pretty mad about not having my casting advance at all, given how far behind I would already be. I mean, Pale Master 1 is a punch in the face, and with that class you're only ending up one level behind. With the alternating advancement, you can at least pretend that you get something worthwhile at every level in this class as it stands now.

[Rhynn]

It is theoretically more restricted in its entry requirements, though. Of course, by restricted I mean "You're supposed to use Druid as your divine entry" which kind of negates that.

Oh, that's right, Arcane Hierophant has the subtly harsh "BAB +4" requirement... you need to be a Wizard 4/Druid 3 or Wizard 3/Druid 4 (or use the superior fractional BAB/saves optional rules from Unearthed Arcana) to enter. That does make it weaker at casting than a Mystic Theurge.

[Zombimode]

I would guess that some of the dissent about the True Necromancer is that while it may not be an optimal choice, its still a caster. I bet that a True Necromancer is a perfectly playable character, probably about Tier 3.

[Rhynn]

I would guess that some of the dissent about the True Necromancer is that while it may not be an optimal choice, its still a caster. I bet that a True Necromancer is a perfectly playable character, probably about Tier 3.

No way. Tier 3 is Beguiler and Dread Necromancer. The Dread Necromancer is obviously superior to the True Necromancer at their specialty. I'd say Tier 4 or 5, maybe. So in a party of fighters, rogues, barbarians, warlocks, etc. - sure, it can work. It's still horrible, and specifically sucks at what it's trying to do (being a necromancer), but hey, spells. Just... 5 levels behind what it should have, but spells...

Edit: I think this (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1573.0) post ranks it pretty accurately at "Catastrophic" tier (along with the similar Yathrinshee).

[Kelb_Panthera]

Oh, that's right, Arcane Hierophant has the subtly harsh "BAB +4" requirement... you need to be a Wizard 4/Druid 3 or Wizard 3/Druid 4 (or use the superior fractional BAB/saves optional rules from Unearthed Arcana) to enter. That does make it weaker at casting than a Mystic Theurge.

Gotta be drd4/wiz3, as it requires Trackless step.

[eggynack]

Gotta be drd4/wiz3, as it requires Trackless step.
Trackless step is a third level druid ability.

Edit: Also, can't you just do it both ways? You need mystic theurge levels to fill out your build later on anyways. You can do something like wizard 3/druid 3/ mystic theurge 2/ arcane heirophant 10/mystic theurge 2. It might be even better if you're using fractional BAB. Wizard 3 gets you 1.5, druid 3 gets you 2.25, so you only need one level of mystic theurge to fill out that requirement.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Trackless step is a third level druid ability.

*checks* so it is. huh. My mistake.

[Carth]

Druid3/wiz3/theurge2/hierophant10/theurge+2 also works. Or druid3/wiz1/theurge4/hierophant10/theurge+2 if you allow precocious apprentice shenanigans. The example hierophant is only a 4th level druid, but hierophant appears to have given it wildshape, which also gives precedent to interpreting hierophant's wildshape advancement in a more advantageous way for people who don't want to take 5 levels of druid. Sure, you can try to devise a way to fit in 1 level of wildrunner to get trackless step, so you can be an archivist hierophant, but don't be fiddly, you'll be just fine as a mere druid/wizard. :smallbiggrin:

[JaronK]

No way. Tier 3 is Beguiler and Dread Necromancer. The Dread Necromancer is obviously superior to the True Necromancer at their specialty. I'd say Tier 4 or 5, maybe. So in a party of fighters, rogues, barbarians, warlocks, etc. - sure, it can work. It's still horrible, and specifically sucks at what it's trying to do (being a necromancer), but hey, spells. Just... 5 levels behind what it should have, but spells...

Nah, you're still likely a Wizard and Cleric. Even with lower level spells you should have enough versatility to outperform a Barbarian or similar.

It just looks really weak because compared to the base classes you put in it's terrible. But you're still able to cast a lot of awesome spells, and unless the Beguiler's having fun with Shadowcraft Mage or something you probably have more variety than a DN or B.

It's a shame it's such a bad class, though.

JaronK

[thethird]

Druid3/wiz3/theurge2/hierophant10/theurge+2 also works. Or druid3/wiz1/theurge4/hierophant10/theurge+2 if you allow precocious apprentice shenanigans. The example hierophant is only a 4th level druid, but hierophant appears to have given it wildshape, which also gives precedent to interpreting hierophant's wildshape advancement in a more advantageous way for people who don't want to take 5 levels of druid. Sure, you can try to devise a way to fit in 1 level of wildrunner to get trackless step, so you can be an archivist hierophant, but don't be fiddly, you'll be just fine as a mere druid/wizard. :smallbiggrin:

My DM allows both early entry and bamboo spirit folk :smallbiggrin: