OP Items, do they exist??

[kimfu]

Well, I'm new to d&d and I've always read about magic items e.g.
Ring +1 AC
Bracers +1 AC
Wand of Something.
Rod of a Lesser MM.
+2 Fire Sword
Head Band +2 int

But, can you create really strong items?? (not intended for low lvl players)

+5 Dragon Hunter's Bow
If enemy not a Dragon, it's a +5 Composite Long Bow.
If enemy is a Dragon, +8 on Attack Rolls, + 4 on DMG, Increased Critical Threat Range and Ability to ignore Dragons Natural AC 1/Day.

+3 Staff of the Forest
Stored Spells Cure Moderate Wounds 3/Day
+5 Healing with Healing Spells
Staff can transform to an Ent 1/Week
If wielder dies, staff exchanges own life for it's owners. (As Resurrection).

+4 Magma Sword (2 Handed)
3d10 Slashing DMG + 5d6 Fire DMG + 1d10 Fire DMG each round for X rounds
18-20 Crit x3
Upon Hitting a 20 your sword has a % to instantly kill the target no save.

This was all made up (obviously :P) but i'm still curious if items like this exist in d&d 3.5, or i don't know, god like weapons and such.
You know, things you can't buy in a store, but are epic level items.

[hamishspence]

Epic handbook has a few. But at those levels, a bit of extra damage isn't overpowered. The real power is in items that break the action economy- like the Belt of Battle, which can grant you an extra standard action.

[Flickerdart]

You can compound weapon properties, increasing the weapon's effective bonus cumulatively. Things like what you describe exist (weapons with the Bane property deal extra damage against creatures of a certain type, Vorpal weapons decapitate on a confirmed natural 20, intelligent items can have SLAs they cast a few times per day) but they all have a price tag and can be crafted or purchased, even if only at a planar metropolis (unless, obviously, they are too expensive for the characters to afford). There are also artifacts, which don't have a listed price, and usually come with a whole grab bag of abilities, but they can't be customized and there aren't really any guidelines on when an artifact is appropriate to give to players.

For creating custom items that mimic the effects of spells, there are guidelines (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm), but follow them carefully and always determine value by the end effect, not the formula. The Magic Item Compendium also provides guidelines for combining magic item properties (so you could have, for instance, a periapt of +2 Wisdom and +1 to natural armour.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Well, I'm new to d&d and I've always read about magic items e.g.
Ring +1 AC
Bracers +1 AC
Wand of Something.
Rod of a Lesser MM.
+2 Fire Sword
Head Band +2 int

But, can you create really strong items?? (not intended for low lvl players)Not only can you, the game's balance (such as it is) expects it. Most of your examples are easy enough.


+5 Dragon Hunter's Bow
If enemy not a Dragon, it's a +5 Composite Long Bow.
If enemy is a Dragon, +8 on Attack Rolls, + 4 on DMG, Increased Critical Threat Range and Ability to ignore Dragons Natural AC 1/Day.+5 keen dragonbane bow gets you pretty similar results. It lacks the "bypass the dragons NA" item, but there are several weapon enhancements that allow you to make a touch attack with the weapon a couple times per day.


+3 Staff of the Forest
Stored Spells Cure Moderate Wounds 3/Day
+5 Healing with Healing Spells
Staff can transform to an Ent 1/Week
If wielder dies, staff exchanges own life for it's owners. (As Resurrection).A staff of healing (DMG) that's been rendered intelligent gets you most of that and there's definitely at least one spell that turns a staff into a treant (same as an ent. Named differently for copyright reasons) that could be added to the staff's list of spells.


+4 Magma Sword (2 Handed)
3d10 Slashing DMG + 5d6 Fire DMG + 1d10 Fire DMG each round for X rounds
18-20 Crit x3 This, however, is a bit of a stretch. The fire damage is flaming surge (not to be confused with flaming burst) but the base damage and the setting the target on super-heated fire aspects aren't readily available as far as I know.

Upon Hitting a 20 your sword has a % to instantly kill the target no save.That's just the vorpal quality. % chance of instant death after rolling a 20 = your normal chance of hitting.


This was all made up (obviously :P) but i'm still curious if items like this exist in d&d 3.5, or i don't know, god like weapons and such.
You know, things you can't buy in a store, but are epic level items.

None of those are epic level items. Most of them are a pretty poor allocation of magical enhancements to a weapon from the typical optimizer's standpoint. Particularly anything involving vorpal.

Don't misunderstand, they're certainly -cool-, just not the most efficient financially or damage-wise.

[kimfu]

Yes!
This were the kind of answers i was looking for xD!!

Now, what examples could you give me of Really Epic Level Items??

[Tokiko Mima]

Or the candle of invocation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#candleofInvocation), that lets you cast a 9th level spell - one that lets you summon, for example, a noble djinn (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/genie.htm#nobleDjinn) or efreeti (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/genie.htm#efreeti) that will grant 3 wishes for you. Or a 34 HD Gargantuan ancient red dragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm#redDragon) to fight your battles for you.

All for the bargain price of 8,400gp. Order today!

[Devronq]

Well, I'm new to d&d and I've always read about magic items e.g.
Ring +1 AC
Bracers +1 AC
Wand of Something.
Rod of a Lesser MM.
+2 Fire Sword
Head Band +2 int

But, can you create really strong items?? (not intended for low lvl players)

+5 Dragon Hunter's Bow
If enemy not a Dragon, it's a +5 Composite Long Bow.
If enemy is a Dragon, +8 on Attack Rolls, + 4 on DMG, Increased Critical Threat Range and Ability to ignore Dragons Natural AC 1/Day.

+3 Staff of the Forest
Stored Spells Cure Moderate Wounds 3/Day
+5 Healing with Healing Spells
Staff can transform to an Ent 1/Week
If wielder dies, staff exchanges own life for it's owners. (As Resurrection).

+4 Magma Sword (2 Handed)
3d10 Slashing DMG + 5d6 Fire DMG + 1d10 Fire DMG each round for X rounds
18-20 Crit x3
Upon Hitting a 20 your sword has a % to instantly kill the target no save.

This was all made up (obviously :P) but i'm still curious if items like this exist in d&d 3.5, or i don't know, god like weapons and such.
You know, things you can't buy in a store, but are epic level items.

Yup watch il make some of these items for you

+5 Dragon Hunter's Bow
If enemy not a Dragon, it's a +5 Composite Long Bow.
If enemy is a Dragon, +8 on Attack Rolls, + 4 on DMG, Increased Critical Threat Range and Ability to ignore Dragons Natural AC 1/Day.

You could make a +5 dragon bane keen composite long bow which would be +7hit and +7dam vs dragons and keen gives it improved critical. Then make it casts wraith strike 1/day which would give you that desired ignore nat ac effect exactly. This would cost 103,400gp if my math is correct.


+3 Staff of the Forest
Stored Spells Cure Moderate Wounds 3/Day
+5 Healing with Healing Spells
Staff can transform to an Ent 1/Week
If wielder dies, staff exchanges own life for it's owners. (As Resurrection).

Ok this ones a bit trickier lets go quarterstaff +3 (18,000gp)
Cast sure mod at min caster level 3/day (6480gp)
+5 healing with healing spells- ok not sure how to create this effect exactly but lets go a ring of mystic healing at 5 times the cost (17,500gp)
Staff can transform, lets go shapechange 1/day? theres probably a easier way im not an expert on druid spells (55080gp)
If wielder dies staff exchanges own life for its owners. (contingency and ressurection) well this seems like it can only be done once so (3300gp +7650gp+10,000gp) cost 118,010gp but its very close


+4 Magma Sword (2 Handed)
3d10 Slashing DMG + 5d6 Fire DMG + 1d10 Fire DMG each round for X rounds
18-20 Crit x3
Upon Hitting a 20 your sword has a % to instantly kill the target no save

Hmm lets make this epic this time

+4 large keen vorpal mercurial great sword of fiery blast +3d6 fire dam +9d6 fire dam on critical (18-20x3) (this is a +15 weapon)
cost about 4.5 million just as is....

any questions?

[Flickerdart]

+5 keen dragonbane bow gets you pretty similar results.
That is not a rules-legal weapon - Keen lacks the text "Bows, crossbows, and slings so crafted bestow it upon their ammunition". You would have to put Keen on the arrows themselves for Keen to do anything.

[Devronq]

Not only can you, the game's balance (such as it is) expects it. Most of your examples are easy enough.

+5 keen dragonbane bow gets you pretty similar results. It lacks the "bypass the dragons NA" item, but there are several weapon enhancements that allow you to make a touch attack with the weapon a couple times per day.

A staff of healing (DMG) that's been rendered intelligent gets you most of that and there's definitely at least one spell that turns a staff into a treant (same as an ent. Named differently for copyright reasons) that could be added to the staff's list of spells.

This, however, is a bit of a stretch. The fire damage is flaming surge (not to be confused with flaming burst) but the base damage and the setting the target on super-heated fire aspects aren't readily available as far as I know.
That's just the vorpal quality. % chance of instant death after rolling a 20 = your normal chance of hitting.



None of those are epic level items. Most of them are a pretty poor allocation of magical enhancements to a weapon from the typical optimizer's standpoint. Particularly anything involving vorpal.

Don't misunderstand, they're certainly -cool-, just not the most efficient financially or damage-wise.

Not true the last sword must be epic +4 weapon +1keen +5 vorpal theres 10 right there beofore the fire dam and even then you will have to use an epic one to have that much dam

[Kelb_Panthera]

Not true the last sword must be epic +4 weapon +1keen +5 vorpal theres 10 right there beofore the fire dam and even then you will have to use an epic one to have that much dam

I didn't really give that one a serious rundown since the base weapon is a bit ridiculous. 3d8 with a X3 multiplier on a sword? I also wasn't sure that the vorpal-esque ability he was describing was intended to be part of that same weapon. What you've described does work, now that I look at it though. Terrible waste of gold, IMO.

@flickerdart:

It is legal. Keen expands the threat range of the weapon. The arrows don't have a critical threat range of their own, so the keen property doesn't need to bestow it on the bow's ammunition.

Even if that were the case, it'd still be legal just an utter waste of gold since it wouldn't actually do anything.

[Devronq]

I didn't really give that one a serious rundown since the base weapon is a bit ridiculous. 3d8 with a X3 multiplier on a sword? I also wasn't sure that the vorpal-esque ability he was describing was intended to be part of that same weapon. What you've described does work, now that I look at it though. Terrible waste of gold, IMO.

oh yes defiantly alot better things you could do with millions of gold...

[TypoNinja]

That is not a rules-legal weapon - Keen lacks the text "Bows, crossbows, and slings so crafted bestow it upon their ammunition". You would have to put Keen on the arrows themselves for Keen to do anything.

There's a scabbard that makes the weapon you draw from it Keen, not to much of a stretch to make an arrow quiver with the same properties and pair it with the bow. Or have the bow grant the wielder the Improved Critical Feat. Feats are harder to price, but there's probably an example weapon floating around somewhere you could reverse engineer to figure it out.

[Flickerdart]

There's a scabbard that makes the weapon you draw from it Keen, not to much of a stretch to make an arrow quiver with the same properties and pair it with the bow. Or have the bow grant the wielder the Improved Critical Feat. Feats are harder to price, but there's probably an example weapon floating around somewhere you could reverse engineer to figure it out.
That's not really relevant to my point that a bow being Keen does nothing, though.

[Devronq]

That's not really relevant to my point that a bow being Keen does nothing, though.

Why isnt it? He was talking about making a quivver that did the same thing as the scabard of keen edges meaning any arrow draw from the quivver would become keen not the bow.

[Flickerdart]

Why isnt it? He was talking about making a quivver that did the same thing as the scabard of keen edges meaning any arrow draw from the quivver would become keen not the bow.
Because I said in my own post that you can make the arrows keen and everything is fine and dandy. "Yes but you can make the arrows keen with a quiver" is not a rebuttal against "you can't have keen bows but you can have keen arrows" because the result in both cases is exactly the same.

[tiercel]

In terms of "epic" items I usually think of artifacts—often because they have unique strong abilities that "break the rules" in some fashion.

"Epic lite"—highly flavored and more-than-usually-powerful items that tend to be more than "+2 to blah"—are decently represented by Relic items, which get their extra power from the wielder needing to sacrifice a spell slot or a feat to get the full benefit (as well as worship the appropriate god).

Weapons of legacy are a nice idea but have generally poor mechanics for unique flavorful items that would actually be to most characters' net benefit to use.

[ahenobarbi]

Ring of three infinite wishes.

[ahenobarbi]

Because I said in my own post that you can make the arrows keen and everything is fine and dandy. "Yes but you can make the arrows keen with a quiver" is not a rebuttal against "you can't have keen bows but you can have keen arrows" because the result in both cases is exactly the same.

Well you can make Keen bow. Only it's wasteful (unless you find yourself meleeing with your bow a lot).

[Kelb_Panthera]

I repeat; it's the bow that has a threat range, not the arrows. Keen does exactly what you'd expect it to when applied to a bow or cross-bow; it doubles the threat range.

I don't even know where this absurd idea that it doesn't work came from.

[hamishspence]

Maybe because it's not on the list of random properties for ranged weapons?

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm

I'm also not sure if bows qualify as piercing weapons in themselves.

The table does list the bow as the piercing weapon rather than the arrow:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#arrows

[Emperor Tippy]

You can't make a Keen Arrow, well you can but it does nothing. Arrows don't have a threat range.

Bow's, however, do. And as Text Trumps Table, you can get a Keen Bow as Bow's are Piercing weapons.

Keen says "This ability doubles the threat range of a weapon. Only piercing or slashing weapons can be keen."

The only requirement to be made Keen is that it be a piercing or slashing weapon.

Since the text never says that you can not apply Keen to a ranged weapon and also never says that you can only apply abilities listed on the Ranged Weapon Special Abilities table to ranged weapons, a +1 Keen Longbow is a valid magic item per the RAW.

[TypoNinja]

That's not really relevant to my point that a bow being Keen does nothing, though.

OP was curious if such weapons exists/were possible. Instead of just being negative and going "no" I thought I'd take the radical step of being helpful and suggest working solutions to get the effect he wanted. Notice I never actually contradicted you on the Keen bow, just said how you could get the effect of keen with a ranged weapon.

Enchanting a Quiver is a pretty painless option since if you are using a bow you usually need somewhere to stuff arrows.


Maybe because it's not on the list of random properties for ranged weapons?

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm

I'm also not sure if bows qualify as piercing weapons in themselves.

The table does list the bow as the piercing weapon rather than the arrow:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#arrows

A little screwy, but I'll take it as RAW, game rules do weird things sometimes.

Here's a better question. If the Bow is the piercing and not its ammo, what happens when you combine a PHB bow with the specialty arrows that do different damage types?

[Sith_Happens]

Here's a better question. If the Bow is the piercing and not its ammo, what happens when you combine a PHB bow with the specialty arrows that do different damage types?

You make Green Arrow proud.

[Chronos]

In practice, high-level characters generally prefer their weapons to only have an actual enhancement of +1, and then have a bunch of other modifiers added on to it. This is for two reasons: First, the spell Greater Magic Weapon (which is easily available at high levels) can increase the enhancement bonus of a weapon to +5, anyway, but doesn't stack with whatever plus is normally on the weapon. Second, a lot of the special properties provide more interesting or valuable effects than just bigger numbers. Precisely which special effects you go for depends on what your character is trying to do.

For example, a character I put together for an optimization challenge used the following two weapons:
+1 Aptitude Thundering Enfeebling Discipline Collision Bodyfeeder kukri
and
+1 Aptitude Thundering Enfeebling Discipline Nervewrack Soulbreaker kukri

Kukris are light weapons with a very wide critical threat range.
Aptitude lets you use feats which require specific weapon types with the weapon, even if it's a different type, which is significant since that character had a feat that triggered whenever he critted with a light mace.
Thundering does sonic damage on a crit and has a chance to deafen the target, and is mainly significant in that it means you roll for crits even against crit-immune enemies like undead.
Enfeebling causes your weapons to deal Strength damage on a crit, and ability score damage will often take down a foe quicker than HP damage.
Discipline means that he gets a +3 to attack whenever he's using a particular martial discipline from the Tome of Battle book.
Collision adds a flat +5 to the damage (but nothing to the attack roll), and non-dice damage gets multiplied on a critical hit.
Bodyfeeder gives you temporary HP equal to the damage dealt with it.
Nervewrack causes the target to take penalties to most rolls for a few rounds after a critical hit.
Soulbreaker gives the target a negative level on a crit.
I could have put Keen on these weapons, too, but it would have been redundant since the character also had the Improved Critical feat, which doesn't stack with Keen.

So the net effect is, my weapons were carefully chosen so that they'd make critical hits a lot, and whenever they did, a whole bunch of good effects for me and bad effects for the enemy would trigger. The character himself also had several abilities that made crits more common or more effective. All the pieces fit together, and work to make the character more powerful.

And yet, even with all those abilities, neither one of those weapons is considered Epic, and could in principle be bought (or more likely, ordered to be custom-made) in a sufficiently-large city.

[137beth]

In practice, high-level characters generally prefer their weapons to only have an actual enhancement of +1, and then have a bunch of other modifiers added on to it. This is for two reasons: First, the spell Greater Magic Weapon (which is easily available at high levels) can increase the enhancement bonus of a weapon to +5, anyway, but doesn't stack with whatever plus is normally on the weapon. Second, a lot of the special properties provide more interesting or valuable effects than just bigger numbers. Precisely which special effects you go for depends on what your character is trying to do.

For example, a character I put together for an optimization challenge used the following two weapons:
+1 Aptitude Thundering Enfeebling Discipline Collision Bodyfeeder kukri
and
+1 Aptitude Thundering Enfeebling Discipline Nervewrack Soulbreaker kukri

Kukris are light weapons with a very wide critical threat range.
Aptitude lets you use feats which require specific weapon types with the weapon, even if it's a different type, which is significant since that character had a feat that triggered whenever he critted with a light mace.
Thundering does sonic damage on a crit and has a chance to deafen the target, and is mainly significant in that it means you roll for crits even against crit-immune enemies like undead.
Enfeebling causes your weapons to deal Strength damage on a crit, and ability score damage will often take down a foe quicker than HP damage.
Discipline means that he gets a +3 to attack whenever he's using a particular martial discipline from the Tome of Battle book.
Collision adds a flat +5 to the damage (but nothing to the attack roll), and non-dice damage gets multiplied on a critical hit.
Bodyfeeder gives you temporary HP equal to the damage dealt with it.
Nervewrack causes the target to take penalties to most rolls for a few rounds after a critical hit.
Soulbreaker gives the target a negative level on a crit.
I could have put Keen on these weapons, too, but it would have been redundant since the character also had the Improved Critical feat, which doesn't stack with Keen.

So the net effect is, my weapons were carefully chosen so that they'd make critical hits a lot, and whenever they did, a whole bunch of good effects for me and bad effects for the enemy would trigger. The character himself also had several abilities that made crits more common or more effective. All the pieces fit together, and work to make the character more powerful.

And yet, even with all those abilities, neither one of those weapons is considered Epic, and could in principle be bought (or more likely, ordered to be custom-made) in a sufficiently-large city.
It should probably be noted that in epic-level games, it is sometimes beneficial to have an actual modifier of +6 on the weapon, so that it bypasses "DR/epic," which becomes extremely common. Increasing it further than that, though, is not recommended (unless you DM starts introducing monsters with "DR/+7" or something).
Even then, however, it still usually isn't idea, as you may be better off getting spells on your weapon, so raw hit-point totals (and hence DR) become less meaningful.

[Flickerdart]

You can't make a Keen Arrow, well you can but it does nothing. Arrows don't have a threat range.

Bow's, however, do. And as Text Trumps Table, you can get a Keen Bow as Bow's are Piercing weapons.

Keen says "This ability doubles the threat range of a weapon. Only piercing or slashing weapons can be keen."

The only requirement to be made Keen is that it be a piercing or slashing weapon.

Since the text never says that you can not apply Keen to a ranged weapon and also never says that you can only apply abilities listed on the Ranged Weapon Special Abilities table to ranged weapons, a +1 Keen Longbow is a valid magic item per the RAW.
Right, you can make a Keen bow, but since it doesn't bestow the property upon its ammo, it'll only be Keen when you're bashing things with it.

[Emperor Tippy]

Right, you can make a Keen bow, but since it doesn't bestow the property upon its ammo, it'll only be Keen when you're bashing things with it.

Nope, arrows don't do damage either. A +1 Keen Longbow does 1d8+1 damage with a threat range of 19-20 and x3 crit.

[Flickerdart]

Nope, arrows don't do damage either. A +1 Keen Longbow does 1d8+1 damage with a threat range of 19-20 and x3 crit.
Then what happens when you target a quiver of arrows with Keen Edge?

[Emperor Tippy]

Then what happens when you target a quiver of arrows with Keen Edge?

They aren't a valid target. Arrows aren't listed as a piercing or slashing weapon so they aren't valid targets for Keen.

Assuming that they were valid targets, Keen would be applied to the bow because of the rule that you combine special abilities on ammunition and the weapon for ranged weapons (in effect you treat them as one weapon).

Think of a bow and arrows as a gestalt weapon, you combine the features of both.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Then what happens when you target a quiver of arrows with Keen Edge?

Not much. Keen edge's ammo clause is probably there for shuriken, which react to magic as ammo.

[Flickerdart]

They aren't a valid target. Arrows aren't listed as a piercing or slashing weapon so they aren't valid targets for Keen.
Keen Edge explicitly lets you cast it on arrows.



Assuming that they were valid targets, Keen would be applied to the bow because of the rule that you combine special abilities on ammunition and the weapon for ranged weapons (in effect you treat them as one weapon).
Amusingly enough, I cannot find such a rule.

[Emperor Tippy]

Keen Edge explicitly lets you cast it on arrows.
Huh, thought it had the same restriction as Keen.
Then it applies to the bows threat range.


Amusingly enough, I cannot find such a rule.

For example, a +1 unholy arrow fired from a +2 anarchic shortbow would be both evil-aligned and chaos-aligned (the former from its own
unholy special ability, the latter from the shortbow).

You stack Arrow and Bow magical special abilities.

[eggynack]

You stack Arrow and Bow magical special abilities.
You missed the context of that sentence. That case is specifically referring to aligned properties. Ammunition fired from an aligned weapon gains the alignment of that weapon. All other cases are defined in the case of the specific enchantments.

[Emperor Tippy]

You missed the context of that sentence. That case is specifically referring to aligned properties. Ammunition fired from an aligned weapon gains the alignment of that weapon. All other cases are defined in the case of the specific enchantments.

And with very few exceptions you stack the special abilities of arrows and bows and basically treat it as one weapon with all of the special abilities of both parts.

[eggynack]

And with very few exceptions you stack the special abilities of arrows and bows and basically treat it as one weapon with all of the special abilities of both parts.
Exactly. With very few exceptions, enchantments specifically state that they grant their properties to ammunition. Keen is one of those exceptions. It seems pretty clear cut to me.

Edit: Actually, your argument was working better from the other direction. The bow doesn't put keen on the arrow. The bow has keen, and that improves the threat range of the bow. I don't see why you'd need to touch the arrow at all. I was all for the side of keen bows until the part about the bow giving keen to the arrow.

[Flickerdart]

And with very few exceptions you stack the special abilities of arrows and bows and basically treat it as one weapon with all of the special abilities of both parts.
Right, sure, but where does it say you do that, as a general rule?

[Emperor Tippy]

Exactly. With very few exceptions, enchantments specifically state that they grant their properties to ammunition. Keen is one of those exceptions. It seems pretty clear cut to me.

Edit: Actually, your argument was working better from the other direction. The bow doesn't put keen on the arrow. The bow has keen, and that improves the threat range of the bow. I don't see why you'd need to touch the arrow at all. I was all for the side of keen bows until the part about the bow giving keen to the arrow.

No, you can't put *Keen* on an arrow at all. You can use Keen Edge on an arrow.

On the attack both the bow and arrow are treated as one weapon with the abilities of both. So if either has Keen then the attack is Keen (and thus has a 19-20 threat range).

Or, possibly, Keen Edge (despite the fact you explicitly can put it on arrows) does nothing as the arrow deals no damage and has no threat range.

[Emperor Tippy]

Right, sure, but where does it say you do that, as a general rule?

DMG page 221. Where it shows applying both the arrow and the bows special abilities to the attack.

[Chronos]

Arrows are piercing, and can deal damage independently of a bow. They're improvised light melee weapons.

[eggynack]

DMG page 221. Where it shows applying both the arrow and the bows special abilities to the attack.
That only applies to aligned properties. It says, "Ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an alignment gains the alignment of that projectile weapon. For example..." and that's where your quote comes in. That page is certainly not a resource to take enchantments from bows and stick them on arrows carte blanche.

[Flickerdart]

DMG page 221. Where it shows applying both the arrow and the bows special abilities to the attack.
Yeah, uh, that's a specific, not a general case. The entire relevant bit says "Ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an enhancement bonus of +1 or higher is treated as a magic weapon for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. For example, a sling stone hurled from a +1 sling is treated as a magic weapon. Similarly, ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an alignment (such as a +1 holy longbow or a masterwork crossbow under the effect of the align weapon spell) gains the alignment of that projectile weapon (in addition to any alignment it may already have). For example, a +1 unholy arrow fired from a +2 anarchic shortbow would be both evil-aligned and chaos-aligned (the former from its own unholy special ability, the latter from the shortbow."

Taken in context, it's completely clear that this rule is talking only about projectile weapons with an alignment passing that to their ammunition, and not anything else. That's why flaming, shock, etc have the specific rule that they pass it on.

[Sith_Happens]

It works as Tippy describes the other way though. As in, any abilities the arrows actually have stacks with those bestowed on them by the bow.

[Flickerdart]

It works as Tippy describes the other way though. As in, any abilities the arrows actually have stacks with those bestowed on them by the bow.
But Keen isn't bestowed on them by the bow, which is the whole point. There is no general rule (such as with the DR penetrating properties) not specific rule (such as Flaming and so forth have) that would make it so, as far as I have seen. Such a rule may indeed exist somewhere, but it has not been demonstrated.

[Sith_Happens]

But Keen isn't bestowed on them by the bow, which is the whole point. There is no general rule (such as with the DR penetrating properties) not specific rule (such as Flaming and so forth have) that would make it so, as far as I have seen. Such a rule may indeed exist somewhere, but it has not been demonstrated.

And the point with Keen is that it's the bow you're rolling attack and damage for, not the arrow. Sure it doesn't really make sense, which is why I think you should take this to the dysfunction thread.

[Kristinn]

I agree with the "keen bow is keen" camp. In the case of Flaming and company, the arrow itself needs to be Flaming to carry the actual effect to the target. However, in the case of Keen, it is with the bow that you do the aiming, and aiming with a keen bow gives higher odds of a critical threat. No need for the arrow itself to carry any effect to the target. The bow is just easier to score critical hits with. Seems clear cut to me.

[eggynack]

And the point with Keen is that it's the bow you're rolling attack and damage for, not the arrow. Sure it doesn't really make sense, which is why I think you should take this to the dysfunction thread.
Yeah, it's pretty weird. I'm not really sure if it works or not. Why does flaming specify that it applies the enchantment onto the arrow, when it's the bow dealing the damage? The logic behind that seems like it would apply similarly to keen, though I don't know for certain. The logic that it's the bow that has the crit range makes sense, though Tippy's logic of the bow applying keen to the arrow is just wrong. That's really the only thing I was disputing. I'd probably just allow it in a game, particularly because giving keen to a bow seems kinda under-powered.

[The Viscount]

Is there any enhancement for a bow that doesn't bestow its property on the ammunition?

[eggynack]

Is there any enhancement for a bow that doesn't bestow its property on the ammunition?
There's not much. Wounding looks like you can stick it on anything, and it doesn't have a line about applying the property to ammo. Ghost touch seems to be the same way.

[Gavinfoxx]

http://web.archive.org/web/20080416115637/http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-456794

Take a look at that...

[The Viscount]

There's not much. Wounding looks like you can stick it on anything, and it doesn't have a line about applying the property to ammo. Ghost touch seems to be the same way.

Both of these are ones that should be applied to ammunition, of course. This doesn't help us with our keen problem, as logically it should apply to arrows but RAW it doesn't work on either.

[TuggyNE]

You know, I think I hate the rules for projectile weapon special abilities. A lot. :smallsigh:

[eggynack]

You know, I think I hate the rules for projectile weapon special abilities. A lot. :smallsigh:
Yeah. I'm all with you on that one. Tippy's been able to come up with some good archery stuff lately, but there's just not much at the base of it. Archery is just kinda lame, particularly the enchantment combo rules.

[Arundel]

This is kind of interesting. Usually rules debates around here are some very well informed people debating people who never read the PHB past the "Monk" entry. Here we have several intelligent and well respected playgrounders using reasonably contradictory evidence to discuss what should be a fairly fundamental part of enchantments.

I really hope this ends up like the "Are kobolds dragons?" where we resolve to a ration and well considered final conclusion. I am now very curious.

[Harrow]

This is kind of interesting. Usually rules debates around here are some very well informed people debating people who never read the PHB past the "Monk" entry. Here we have several intelligent and well respected playgrounders using reasonably contradictory evidence to discuss what should be a fairly fundamental part of enchantments.

I really hope this ends up like the "Are kobolds dragons?" where we resolve to a ration and well considered final conclusion. I am now very curious.

As far as I can tell, the only direction this discussion is going is "Play it how it makes sense to you because the rules are totally borked". Which is actually a really good result as far as Playgrounder rule interpretation disagreements go.

[Morcleon]

It should probably be noted that in epic-level games, it is sometimes beneficial to have an actual modifier of +6 on the weapon, so that it bypasses "DR/epic," which becomes extremely common. Increasing it further than that, though, is not recommended (unless you DM starts introducing monsters with "DR/+7" or something).
Even then, however, it still usually isn't idea, as you may be better off getting spells on your weapon, so raw hit-point totals (and hence DR) become less meaningful.

A +6 is still not worth it. Firstly, it costs 720kgp, and secondly, can be easily duplicated by a level 21 psion with metaphysical weapon. :smallbiggrin:


I really hope this ends up like the "Are kobolds dragons?" where we resolve to a ration and well considered final conclusion. I am now very curious.

Well, depends on how you look at it. Dragonwrought specifically changes your type to dragon, so yes, you are technically a dragon.

...although "kobold".equals("dragon") does returns false... :smallwink: ...it's a programming joke... >.<

[eggynack]

As far as I can tell, the only direction this discussion is going is "Play it how it makes sense to you because the rules are totally borked". Which is actually a really good result as far as Playgrounder rule interpretation disagreements go.
That sounds about right. My current opinion is that you put keen on the bow, and it increases the crit range of the bow. The bow doesn't apply the improved crit range to the arrow, because the arrow doesn't have a crit range. On the other hand, the arrow doesn't have a damage or weapon type either. Thus, there's probably some enchantment that gets applied to the ammunition, and contradicts this claim by being based on some factor which doesn't exist on an arrow. However, I've been looking around a bit, and I found arcane might. It's a weapon enchantment from SpC that seems to give its damage bonus directly to the bow, rather than apply it to the arrow. I think it lends some credence to this argument.

[Flickerdart]

I really hope this ends up like the "Are kobolds dragons?" where we resolve to a ration and well considered final conclusion. I am now very curious.
Obviously, the solution is that kobolds bestow the True Dragon property upon their ammunition.

[Quietus]

Obviously, the solution is that kobolds bestow the True Dragon property upon their ammunition.

I second this motion.

[Zarin]

If we look at the word "keen" it relates to a sharp edge (among other things but this is the only definition that matters), so logically making a bow "keen" involves carving it into a sharp point, I fail to see how this affects the crit range of the arrows it fires.

(Tongue firmly in cheek, but I noticed no one mentioned the meaning of the word "keen" and how it could only logically be applied to arrows to provide a benefit in this bow vs arrows argument.)

[eggynack]

If we look at the word "keen" it relates to a sharp edge (among other things but this is the only definition that matters), so logically making a bow "keen" involves carving it into a sharp point, I fail to see how this affects the crit range of the arrows it fires.

(Tongue firmly in cheek, but I noticed no one mentioned the meaning of the word "keen" and how it could only logically be applied to arrows to provide a benefit in this bow vs arrows argument.)
Kristinn made a pretty good point along those lines. Basically, the bow aims better, so you're more likely to shoot a weak point. Like, you have a better chance at hitting the enemy's throat, and that causes you to get critical hits more often.

[mattie_p]

If we look at the word "keen" it relates to a sharp edge (among other things but this is the only definition that matters), so logically making a bow "keen" involves carving it into a sharp point, I fail to see how this affects the crit range of the arrows it fires.

(Tongue firmly in cheek, but I noticed no one mentioned the meaning of the word "keen" and how it could only logically be applied to arrows to provide a benefit in this bow vs arrows argument.)

If we make the bow keen, does it still work with blunt arrows (Races of the Wild?) How about if we did something wonky like take Crimson Scourge (Cityscape) 1 for the Kid Gloves ability (allowing you to do non-lethal damage with your keen arrows)? I don't think there is an easy answer here.

[TuggyNE]

As far as I can tell, the only direction this discussion is going is "Play it how it makes sense to you because the rules are totally borked". Which is actually a really good result as far as Playgrounder rule interpretation disagreements go.

Pretttty much. Fertile ground for RACSD corrections, but actual RAW seems almost hopelessly snarled.


Obviously, the solution is that kobolds bestow the True Dragon property upon their ammunition.

Agreed so hard you don't even know. Actually, I think I'm gonna stick this in my quotebox, if you don't mind.

[Sith_Happens]

If we make the bow keen, does it still work with blunt arrows (Races of the Wild?) How about if we did something wonky like take Crimson Scourge (Cityscape) 1 for the Kid Gloves ability (allowing you to do non-lethal damage with your keen arrows)? I don't think there is an easy answer here.

Sure there is:

You make Green Arrow proud.
:smallbiggrin:

[Emperor Tippy]

But Keen isn't bestowed on them by the bow, which is the whole point. There is no general rule (such as with the DR penetrating properties) not specific rule (such as Flaming and so forth have) that would make it so, as far as I have seen. Such a rule may indeed exist somewhere, but it has not been demonstrated.

Which is irrelevant because arrows fired from bows do not, per RAW, do damage at all. The *bow* does damage when the arrow hits. This is why the *bow* has a damage value, a range increment, a critical threat range, and a critical multiplier. If the bow is Keen then it does not need to "bestow" anything onto the arrow.


Yeah, it's pretty weird. I'm not really sure if it works or not. Why does flaming specify that it applies the enchantment onto the arrow, when it's the bow dealing the damage? The logic behind that seems like it would apply similarly to keen, though I don't know for certain. The logic that it's the bow that has the crit range makes sense, though Tippy's logic of the bow applying keen to the arrow is just wrong. That's really the only thing I was disputing. I'd probably just allow it in a game, particularly because giving keen to a bow seems kinda under-powered.
I never said that the bow applied keen to the arrow. I said that an arrow can not be Keen and if it is Keen then it is worthless as said arrows have no threat range, no damage value, and nothing else relevant.

In the case of Keen Edge, where you can specifically apply it to arrows, I said that such arrows (i.e. those under the effects of Keen Edge) would apply the Keen property to the bow. I have never said that the bow applies that property to the arrows.



You know, I think I hate the rules for projectile weapon special abilities. A lot. :smallsigh:

I agree. There are a number of situations where it seemed like WotC just refused to clearly state things in the rules and this is one of them.


Yeah. I'm all with you on that one. Tippy's been able to come up with some good archery stuff lately, but there's just not much at the base of it. Archery is just kinda lame, particularly the enchantment combo rules.

Good Archery in RAW is pretty much entirely done with a Factotum so that you can just pile on attack after attack as 17 or 18 attacks before your enemies get to act (when they are all flatfooted) with a Splitting Bow and where you are using Craven+Cunning Insight will ruin your oppositions day. Especially if you do Guided Shot+Sniper's Shot+Wraithstrike.

But even then Archery in RAW tends to suck and core only the best archery is actually a Monk.

[turbo164]

Hmm.

1. A Flaming/Keen bow adds 1d6 damage/double threat to its base d8 x3 etc. The fact that it bestows Flaming/[not Keen] to its arrows does not matter at this point because the bow is doing the damage, not the arrow.
2. If the arrow misses, there is a 50% chance that it can be recovered.
3. The recovered arrow is now a Flaming/[not Keen] improvised weapon, that counts as magic for overcoming damage reduction but is not actually +1 unless the arrow explicitly started that way. It can be made Keen by Keen Edge.
4. Buy a +1, Flaming, Frost, Shock, Corrosive, Screaming, [bane], [alignment] bow, close your eyes and shoot at a gnat 600 feet away, and 1gp will average about 9 of the following weapons to arm your peasent army with:

1d3piercing+1d6fire+1d6cold+1d6lightning+1d6acid+1 d4sonic+[bane/alignment] x2, counts as Magic; improvised weapon so -4 to hit but your peasents only hit on 20s anyway.

I think this works RAW? The enchantments are bestowed to the arrows and have no listed duration. If you're willing to spend some money to make the arrows themselves +5 and alignment (and Keen Edge!), your peasents get slightly better.

Edit: typos, and clarified Keen.

[mangosta71]

Souldrinker. It's a +5 bastard sword that casts Energy Drain on hit, no save. Not limited to one per round, so you can impose enough negative levels to kill pretty much anything with a full attack. Who needs damage?

[Killer Angel]

Or the candle of invocation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#candleofInvocation), that lets you cast a 9th level spell - one that lets you summon, for example, a noble djinn (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/genie.htm#nobleDjinn) or efreeti (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/genie.htm#efreeti) that will grant 3 wishes for you. Or a 34 HD Gargantuan ancient red dragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm#redDragon) to fight your battles for you.

All for the bargain price of 8,400gp. Order today!

Not the kind of things the OP was looking for, but if we're talking about overpowered items...
Wilding clasp: how to avoid the main weakness of one of the most powerful classes.
Nightsticks: you know why (you can still abuse DMM, but this is the easiest way).

[Norin]

Hmm.

1. A Flaming/Keen bow adds 1d6 damage/double threat to its base d8 x3 etc. The fact that it bestows Flaming/Keen to its arrows does not matter at this point because the bow is doing the damage, not the arrow.
2. If the arrow misses, there is a 50% chance that it can be recovered.
3. The recovered arrow is now a Flaming/Keen improvised weapon, that counts as magic for overcoming damage reduction but is not actually +1 unless the arrow explicitly started that way.
4. Buy a +1, Flaming, Frost, Shock, Corrosive, Screaming, [bane], [alignment] bow, close your eyes and shoot at a gnat 600 feet away, and 1gp will average about 9 of the following weapons to arm your peasent army with:

1d3+1d6fire+1d6cold+1d6lightning+1d6acid+1d4sonic+[bane/alignment] Piercing x2, counts as Magic; improvised weapon so -4 to hit but your peasents only hit on 20s anyway.

I think this works RAW? The enchantments are bestowed to the arrows and have no listed duration. If you're willing to spend some money to make the arrows themselves +5 and alignment, your peasents get slightly better.

How about taking all those arrows you salvage, fire them all again, salvage, rinse repeat. Start this with something like a million arrows and you end up with a nice collection of stupidly stacked magic arrows... Hmmmmmm?

:smalltongue:

[turbo164]

How about taking all those arrows you salvage, fire them all again, salvage, rinse repeat. Start this with something like a million arrows and you end up with a nice collection of stupidly stacked magic arrows... Hmmmmmm?

:smalltongue:

Yeah actually, if this works you could have the aforementioned elemental/bane/alignment bow, launch those arrows through a [more alignments]/[more banes] bow, launch THOSE through a bow with whatever we've missed...

Fear the EverythingBane peasants! :smallamused:

[Flickerdart]

Agreed so hard you don't even know. Actually, I think I'm gonna stick this in my quotebox, if you don't mind.
Go right ahead.

[The Viscount]

Which is irrelevant because arrows fired from bows do not, per RAW, do damage at all. The *bow* does damage when the arrow hits. This is why the *bow* has a damage value, a range increment, a critical threat range, and a critical multiplier.

Doesn't this mean that things like flaming, which add the property to the arrows, don't work either? Do we just need to add "archery" to dysfunctional rules, then?

[eggynack]

Doesn't this mean that things like flaming, which add the property to the arrows, don't work either? Do we just need to add "archery" to dysfunctional rules, then?
I was thinking about this one, and I don't think it's a problem. The arrow deals an additional 1d6 fire damage on a successful hit. It doesn't modify the non-existent damage of the arrow; it provides an entirely new damage source. By contrast, keen modifies a non-existent condition of the arrow, which seems impossible.

[Emperor Tippy]

Doesn't this mean that things like flaming, which add the property to the arrows, don't work either?
Yes and no. A Flaming Bow gives any arrows it fires the Flaming special ability (whether said arrows are masterwork or not) but the arrow does no additional damage as flaming says it "deals an extra 1d6 points of fire damage on a successful hit." and Arrows have a null value for damage. However, if you then fired such an arrow from a non flaming bow then the Bow would be treated as Flaming and deal 1d8+1d6 damage.


Do we just need to add "archery" to dysfunctional rules, then?
Yes.

All they needed to do was add one damn line to the rules "If both the bow and the arrows being fired are magical then the attack is treated as if it had every special ability of both components, in the event of multiple iterations of the same ability only the better version applies (for example, a +1 arrow fired from a +3 bow would be treated as a +3 attack)."

But instead we have the dysfunction that is the current situation.



I was thinking about this one, and I don't think it's a problem. The arrow deals an additional 1d6 fire damage on a successful hit. It doesn't modify the non-existent damage of the arrow; it provides an entirely new damage source. By contrast, keen modifies a non-existent condition of the arrow, which seems impossible.

Nope, the arrow has a null damage value (unless being used as an improvised melee weapon) and thus can't have damage added on; but the attack picks up flaming for (in the case of a Longbow) 1d8+1d6 damage.

----
Now want the real fun? Races of the Wild gives specialty arrows that actually have damage values, crit ranges, crit multiplies, range increments, and damage types.

So this is all even more messed up and confusing. Don't you just love WotC and their fine editing staff? :smallwink:

[eggynack]

Nope, the arrow has a null damage value (unless being used as an improvised melee weapon) and thus can't have damage added on; but the attack picks up flaming for (in the case of a Longbow) 1d8+1d6 damage.

The flaming is explicitly applied to the arrow. I suppose you could argue that it's an extraneous chunk of rules text, but I don't think it is. The arrow has a null damage value, but I don't think that's relevant. The flaming nature of the arrow is a separate damage source from the actual, nonexistent, arrow damage. When the arrow hits the enemy, it deals 1d6 fire damage on a successful hit. I suppose the real takeaway from all of this arguing is that archery is super weird.

[Emperor Tippy]

The flaming is explicitly applied to the arrow. I suppose you could argue that it's an extraneous chunk of rules text, but I don't think it is. The arrow has a null damage value, but I don't think that's relevant. The flaming nature of the arrow is a separate damage source from the actual, nonexistent, arrow damage. When the arrow hits the enemy, it deals 1d6 fire damage on a successful hit. I suppose the real takeaway from all of this arguing is that archery is super weird.
Oh, the Arrow is flaming but since it has a null value for damage and the D&D rules are that null values can't be augmented (specific example is with ability scores) and Flaming says that it is +1d6 extra damage, the arrow does no extra damage.

It's adding damage to a property that the arrow doesn't have (when being fired from a bow).

However, if fired from a bow the Flaming Arrow makes the attack flaming and it thus deals 1d8+1d6 (in the case of being fired from a Longbow).

Also, if you wield it as an improvised melee weapon it gets the Flaming damage.