Dark take on Strategy Genre

[t209]

- Tactics Ogre
There's no good guys nor bad guys in this game. Just doing their jobs, including ethnic cleansing.
- Erfworld
Comic version of Yggdra Union, morally ambiguity and empire being sympathetic.
- Ender's Game
You'll know when you finish the book :smallfrown: Never sounded fair to compare him to certain dictator since he didn't know that it was real.
- Fire Emblem Jugdral
More like A Song of Ice and Fire Emblem, even if it has good ending.
It doesn't always have to be a videogame, just any media that deconstructed and rip apart the mechanics+ Story.

[Jayngfet]

- Tactics Ogre
There's no good guys nor bad guys in this game. Just doing their jobs, including ethnic cleansing.

But... isn't ethnic cleansing one of those things that's unambiguously bad in every context ever? I mean if not treated as such then in implications alone.

[Sotharsyl]

But... isn't ethnic cleansing one of those things that's unambiguously bad in every context ever? I mean if not treated as such then in implications alone.

You would be surprised how quick readers or watchers are to tacitly endorse ethnic cleansing if the victim are hated by the fandom and opposed by the hero.

[Ebon_Drake]

I've always found DEFCON highly depressing, although I think that's the point. The game is highly absorbing as you try to judge how best to deploy your forces, make alliances and launch nuclear strikes on opposing cities, but at the end you're confronted with the statistics of just how many millions of people were killed. No matter how you play, you will have blown up a number of major cities and will have suffered horrendous casualties.

[Eldan]

But... isn't ethnic cleansing one of those things that's unambiguously bad in every context ever? I mean if not treated as such then in implications alone.

Pretty much every strategy game I can think of has some degree of that. After all, in most of them, you are wiping out all your enemies, including any supposed civilian base personel.

[warty goblin]

Pretty much every strategy game I can think of has some degree of that. After all, in most of them, you are wiping out all your enemies, including any supposed civilian base personel.

Yeah, I'm not really sure the strategy genre needs a dark take; it's already pretty dark as a rule. And that's before one gets to the really bleak stuff like Elven Legacy.

[Cespenar]

-One of the most effective strategies in RTSs is killing the enemy's workers. To the extent of sacrificing a handful of your men and expecting them to kill as many of them as they can before getting offed themselves. Something not unlike terrorism.

-You kill healers first, as a tactical rule. Think of that happening in real life.

-Nukes and other mass destruction weapons are usually the ones that the players love/enjoy the most.

-Hunting down wounded, escaping enemies is an absolute must in almost every game.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

League of Legends is about amoral warriors mowing down swathes of minions so they can get powerful enough to kill their enemies. Over and over and over again, because dying once isn't enough.

[warty goblin]

-One of the most effective strategies in RTSs is killing the enemy's workers. To the extent of sacrificing a handful of your men and expecting them to kill as many of them as they can before getting offed themselves. Something not unlike terrorism.

Unless we're talking Sins of a Solar Empire, in which case the best strategy is planet-wide nuclear bombardment. Remember, if everybody's dead, nobody complains when you take their stuff.

[Hiro Protagonest]

-One of the most effective strategies in RTSs is killing the enemy's workers. To the extent of sacrificing a handful of your men and expecting them to kill as many of them as they can before getting offed themselves. Something not unlike terrorism.

Denying supplies has been part of warfare ever since it moved beyond tribal raids.

As for targeting medics first and hunting retreaters, soldiers who run away and get healed in video games come back during the same overall battle, soldiers in real life usually have to get flown off to a medical camp or hospital to fully treat their wounds.

[warty goblin]

Denying supplies has been part of warfare ever since it moved beyond tribal raids.


The raiding - hell the victory condition - in a traditional RTS isn't so much destroying warfighting capability, as it is razing the entire opposing civilization to the ground. Bases are really a lot closer to cities than they are military installations, and sacking cities has been seen as a fairly grim thing since around Book 6 of the Iliad.

[IamL]

The raiding - hell the victory condition - in a traditional RTS isn't so much destroying warfighting capability, as it is razing the entire opposing civilization to the ground.

Yeah, but the best and most sure way to accomplish this is to cut off opponent's resources so you can bide your time and wait until you're at full strength and they can't afford any soldiers and you invade.

[warty goblin]

Yeah, but the best and most sure way to accomplish this is to cut off opponent's resources so you can bide your time and wait until you're at full strength and they can't afford any soldiers and you invade.

So it's razing their city to the ground over a longer period of time. The siege of Carthage took three years, it didn't make it any less burnt to the ground.

[Metahuman1]

Inb4 Warhammer 40K.

Let's not make this genera any darker. I'm getting tired of everything must be dark.

[Nerd-o-rama]

I never heard of anyone comparing Ender to A Certain Dictator. Ender was a much better strategist, for one thing.

[Eloi]

I never heard of anyone comparing Ender to A Certain Dictator. Ender was a much better strategist, for one thing.

The OP was probably referencing the infamous essay "Ender and Hitler: Sympathy for the Superman", wherein the essayist completely evades authorial intent or good will in interpreting the novel in order to invoke Godwin's Law with long-winded analogies.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Ender's more of the original work, pre-Nazi-propaganda idea of the Ubermensch. Sort of. I don't think anyone actually understands Nietzsche, and I'm not going to give Orson Scott Card any particular credit there.

Notable in that even though he exists outside normal moral frameworks, he's still a fundamentally altruistic person. I'm not sure what Nietzsche would think of that, if anything.

[IamL]

So it's razing their city to the ground over a longer period of time. The siege of Carthage took three years, it didn't make it any less burnt to the ground.

Yes, but you risk more and lose more troops in a standard siege, and you require more troops as well.
Siege of Carthage, huh? One word: Stalingrad.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I never heard of anyone comparing Ender to A Certain Dictator. Ender was a much better strategist, for one thing.

Well, the German military was the best of the time in terms of quantity and quality combined, as well as tech level on the ground, so... yeah. Ender is a way better strategist.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Well, the German military was the best of the time in terms of quantity and quality combined, as well as tech level on the ground, so... yeah. Ender is a way better strategist.

There are many reasons why the Wehrmacht lost hard on the Eastern front, but one of them was their being micromanaged by an autocratic politician who had no military training beyond "run this way" and was certifiably insane, and oh dear I might be violating forum rules.

[warty goblin]

Yes, but you risk more and lose more troops in a standard siege, and you require more troops as well.
Siege of Carthage, huh? One word: Stalingrad.
I'm not really sure what this has to do with my point. Whether you do it as a siege or a series of chevauchee raids followed by a final assault, the objective in the classical form of the RTS is the complete and utter destruction of what amounts to a city sized portion of military and civilian infrastructure and population. As I said, the annihilation of cities has been seen as at the very least tragic since at least later antiquity; c.f. Scipio Aemilianus' reaction to the fall of Carthage.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Bear in mind, the level of civilian involvement in any given RTS/TBS varies wildly, from sprawling military bases with some apparent contractor support in Starcraft* to actual complete towns and social structures in Age of Empires to dealing with...well, entire civilizations in Civilization.

But then, total war is always brutal, and that's what strategy games most frequently model. So yeah, it's all fairly dark in a way.

*Terran and Protoss. The Zerg's entire species is weaponized so I don't feel so bad blowing up their larval forms and hives.

[DeusMortuusEst]

Bear in mind, the level of civilian involvement in any given RTS/TBS varies wildly, from sprawling military bases with some apparent contractor support in Starcraft* to actual complete towns and social structures in Age of Empires to dealing with...well, entire civilizations in Civilization.

But then, total war is always brutal, and that's what strategy games most frequently model. So yeah, it's all fairly dark in a way.

*Terran and Protoss. The Zerg's entire species is weaponized so I don't feel so bad blowing up their larval forms and hives.

I'm not sure there are any civilians in the protoss camps either. They warp in their warriors and their buildings are mostly run by robots or from a distance.

Terrans on the other hand must have loads of civilans and especially criminals on site as the newly trained recruits that the barracks keep spitting out have to come from somewhere...

[t209]

I heard that criminals include people who gave out structured criticism against the government, who has the same free speech policy as a dictator ruled country (I could rant some countries but I don't want to get banned).
http://www.nerfnow.com/comic/978
Along with squatters.

[MLai]

One thing I've always wished I could do in Heroes of M&M 5 (by Nival), was the ability to raze a town. Partially, so that it's weakened with less buildings. Or completely obliterated. Oh, and I want to be able to imprison and/or execute enemy heroes. But noooooo, I can only take towns over peacefully, and chase enemy heroes away. :smallyuk:

[warty goblin]

One thing I've always wished I could do in Heroes of M&M 5 (by Nival), was the ability to raze a town. Partially, so that it's weakened with less buildings. Or completely obliterated. Oh, and I want to be able to imprison and/or execute enemy heroes. But noooooo, I can only take towns over peacefully, and chase enemy heroes away. :smallyuk:

Might and Magic are games I play until I realize I should really just go play Age of Wonders some more instead. Then a person can get their fantasy crimes against humanity (or halflings, or goblins or...) on properly.

[Korgor]

Oh yes, Defcon - complete with a soundtrack with wheezing, crying people... and you might have killed 125,000,000 people, but you opponent only killed 124,999,999! You win, Hurray, what a shame London now has three PST sufferers and a load of rats living in it... LEt's say I wouldn't play this game if the possibility of Nuclear Armageddon... troubles you...

If I can take this into turn based games, here's a couple of old classics - Lords of the Realm II - has your opponent got a huge castle full of archers, and you can't take his county unless you weed them out from behind their high walls? Simple - burn every field, village, industry and collection of more than three people you can get your hands on, and his disgruntled peasants will soon kick him out of it for you! Problem solved... this is a good way to go from neutral counties full of people who get aggressive when you cross their borders... to plague ravaged, barren communities of 13 people who literally beg you to come and oppress them...

Also, on the nuking front, Master of Orion 2 had a nice idea - why turn the rival colony into a horde of disgruntled aliens, or a barren netron bombed rock, then you can 'convince' the enemy they like you through mind control. Is that morally better, or morally worse do you think?

[GolemsVoice]

The thing is, however, that even most "civilian" structures in strategy games directly contribute to the enemies war effort. If it isn't relevant for producing more fighters, it's often not in the game at all.

However, hospitals in Ground Control, for example, are sometimes neutral, and you don't have to attack them to win missions, you only have to cripple things like communications and command. And the attack on hospital that surrender get's a major what the hell from the player's character.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Terrans on the other hand must have loads of civilans and especially criminals on site as the newly trained recruits that the barracks keep spitting out have to come from somewhere...

I always figured that the Terran buildings were landing pads designed for safe dropping form orbit.

But yeah, my experience with RTS is limited to Starcraft and Company of Heroes. If you add in various 4X games (the various games by the AoE guy might be 4X, although I don't know if they don't count as "explore"), then yeah. 4X is a grand strategy genre with the word "exterminate" in it.

[Raimun]

Remember...

"... you can't make an omelette without ruthlessly chrushing dozens of eggs beneath your steel boots and then publicly disemboweling the chickens that laid them as a warning to others."

[Anteros]

But... isn't ethnic cleansing one of those things that's unambiguously bad in every context ever? I mean if not treated as such then in implications alone.

This can be explained by the fact that T209 flatly misinterpreted the message of the game. Yes it's possible to ethnically cleanse your own people in the game as a propaganda gimmick...However the game will spend the next 80 hours of plot hammering home just how much of a terrible, evil monster you are if you choose to go that route.

Just because you're the protagonist, doesn't mean you aren't the bad guy. You can't get the good ending to Tactics Ogre unless you specifically go out of your way to treat all ethnic groups well. This extends to even needing you to complete missions while killing as few enemy combatants as possible.

[ChaosArchon]

Yeah lets face it, the strategy genre is a pretty dark one already. Normally you are a detached general/president/wizard/god,etc. who uses disposable units to wear down the enemy (aka Tier 1 units in Sc2) or WMD to batter your opponents into submission. Thats not even counting 4x games like Civ where you can start an inquisition in your empire simply so your religion is the dominant one, oh and forcibly convert cities your Great Prophets (or even normal priests) go to.

[Eldan]

Civ has nothing on Alpha Centauri. The citizens are unhappy? Bring hte nerve staplers. Enemies are attacking? Brain parasites! Psionic terror campaign to drive them to suicide! Bioweapons! Mind control!

[Hiro Protagonest]

Yeah lets face it, the strategy genre is a pretty dark one already. Normally you are a detached general/president/wizard/god,etc. who uses disposable units to wear down the enemy (aka Tier 1 units in Sc2) or WMD to batter your opponents into submission. Thats not even counting 4x games like Civ where you can start an inquisition in your empire simply so your religion is the dominant one, oh and forcibly convert cities your Great Prophets (or even normal priests) go to.

Yeah, most strategy games that are on a large scale but not a grand scale are about as bloody as WWII. If it's on a grand scale, then it generally doesn't focus a lot on combat (except for 4X, of course. There's a reason that an X stands for "exterminate"). If it's on a small scale where you take no more to battle than a few fireteams, then the individual soldier matters.

[t209]

This can be explained by the fact that T209 flatly misinterpreted the message of the game. Yes it's possible to ethnically cleanse your own people in the game as a propaganda gimmick...However the game will spend the next 80 hours of plot hammering home just how much of a terrible, evil monster you are if you choose to go that route.

Just because you're the protagonist, doesn't mean you aren't the bad guy. You can't get the good ending to Tactics Ogre unless you specifically go out of your way to treat all ethnic groups well. This extends to even needing you to complete missions while killing as few enemy combatants as possible.
What I mean is the soldiers that done it, not the leaders.
edit: On Alpha Centauri. You don't always follow your ideals. Instead of Tree Hugging hippies, be an eco terrorist with mind worms. Instead of Big Brother, be the enlightened despot.

[TSGames]

- Tactics Ogre
There's no good guys nor bad guys in this game. Just doing their jobs, including ethnic cleansing.
- Erfworld
Comic version of Yggdra Union, morally ambiguity and empire being sympathetic.
- Ender's Game
You'll know when you finish the book :smallfrown: Never sounded fair to compare him to certain dictator since he didn't know that it was real.
- Fire Emblem Jugdral
More like A Song of Ice and Fire Emblem, even if it has good ending.
It doesn't always have to be a videogame, just any media that deconstructed and rip apart the mechanics+ Story.
I feel like the older games have been very open about the ethnic cleansing part of the strategy genre. In Warcraft, you were attempting to enslave and kill all of humanity by invading from another dimension (if you played as the orcs) or attempting to stop your race from being killed if you played as the humans. They was no subtle amount of racism on both sides. To take another icon game: Masters of Orion, the most notable and oldest of the 4X strategy genre: you are literally conquering the galaxy by killing or enslaving the other intelligent species until you are unquestionably the dominant force in the galaxy.

The key difference between the two scenarios is that with Masters of Orion, everyone is in the wrong and everyone feels justified because everyone else is doing the same thing. In Warcraft, you have one very clear aggressor who is definitely in the wrong, and humanity who(throughout Warcraft II) will lower itself to the level of its aggressor.

Either way, the assumption in strategy is that either everyone's an a-hole, or else one side has to defend and maybe even go on offense or face total annihilation. In other words, ethnic cleansing and/or enslavement is often the plot device or "character motivation" to move the plot along. It may be evil, but it's almost always presented as necessary.