Are the spikes given by Manticore Belt natural weapons?

[danzibr]

I asked in the RAW Q&A and got no response. It went like this:

1) Are the spikes given by binding Manticore Belt to your totem considered natural weapons? I ask this for the purposes of Necklace of Natural Weapons.

2) When you loose a "volley" of spikes using Manticore Belt, is it technically considered a volley attack? Though MoI uses the word volley, I was under the impression a volley attack only needs one attack roll, whereas with Manticore Belt you need an attack roll for each spike.

If such attacks are defaulted to natural weapons then yes, but if the text has to explicitly say they're natural weapons then no. The latter case would be a gigantic bummer as you lose a ton of ways to improve Manticore Belt.

[Deophaun]

1) No. It does not say they are natural attacks, therefor they are not natural attacks.

2) Yes, it is a volley attack. What determines whether an attack is a volley or not is the action needed to make it. If you use a standard action to make multiple attacks, it's a volley. If you use a full round action, it's not. (There is somewhere in the Rules Compendium that will explain better/correctly)

Edit:

Rules Compendium pg. 42, the last point under Precision Damage. Although the word "volley" is not used, it says actions that grant multiple attacks but are not full-round actions only have their damage applied to the first attack (Interestingly enough, it seems a Sorcerer-Rogue Empowering a scorching ray would get precision damage on all of his rays, due to the metamagiced spell taking a full round.)

[Waddacku]

To be more precise, to apply precision damage to multiple attacks, they have to be done as a full-round action. Yes, it means that, say, a sorcerer with sneak attack normally couldn't apply it to more than one ray in a Scorching Ray, but if he applied metamagic to it and thus made it a full-round action to cast he could.

[LanSlyde]

I asked in the RAW Q&A and got no response. It went like this:

1) Are the spikes given by binding Manticore Belt to your totem considered natural weapons? I ask this for the purposes of Necklace of Natural Weapons.

2) When you loose a "volley" of spikes using Manticore Belt, is it technically considered a volley attack? Though MoI uses the word volley, I was under the impression a volley attack only needs one attack roll, whereas with Manticore Belt you need an attack roll for each spike.

If such attacks are defaulted to natural weapons then yes, but if the text has to explicitly say they're natural weapons then no. The latter case would be a gigantic bummer as you lose a ton of ways to improve Manticore Belt.

1) Yes, yes a manticore belts tail spikes are natural weapons.
Check the Manticore entry in the monster manual if you need proof. That is the entire point of the totemist. Borrowing the Natural Weapons of magical creatures.

2) No, no its not a volley attack. You don't need a full round action for your attacks to not be considered a volley. A volley attack is any attack that fired many missiles but only requires a single attack roll. The manticores tail spikes, while fired all at once, each require their own separate attack roll.

[danzibr]

Well that's confusing. The answers are totally opposite.

Looking into it a bit more, I find Rules Compendium does give a definition of natural attack, namely a natural weapon or special attack, but does not give a definition of natural weapon. Fortunately, the SRD does.


Natural weapons are weapons that are physically a part of a creature.

Because a manticore's spikes are a part of its body it attacks with, although the entry doesn't specifically call them natural weapons, they are. But what about Manticore Belt?

Almost all (but not all) of the other soulmelds specifically say you get natural weapons. Manticore Belt just says you may snap your tail to loose a volley of spikes. But wait! Your tail! That's right, Manticore Belt gives you a tail, so it's physically part of you. And you attack with it.

In short: a natural weapon is a weapon that is physically part of your body. Manticore Belt gives you a weapon that is physically part of your body. Thus the spike attack is a natural attack (please correct me if I'm wrong).

[Deophaun]

Almost all (but not all) of the other soulmelds specifically say you get natural weapons. Manticore Belt just says you may snap you tail to loose a volley of spikes. But wait! Your tail! That's right, Manticore Belt gives you a tail, so it's physically part of you. And you attack with it.
If I kill a bear and take its claws, I now have a pair claws. If I attack with those claws, are they now natural weapons? No, because the claws are not part of my body. So a meld gives you a tail. It does not mean that tail is a part of your body. The fluff associated with the manticore belt shows you how this is possible: it emerges from the belt, not from the base of your spine where an actual tail would emerge. Fluff is not RAW, but as RAW does not say the tail is a part of you by refusing to label it as a natural attack, the fluff short-circuits the logic that the tail must be a part of your body.

[danzibr]

If I kill a bear and take its claws, I now have a pair claws. If I attack with those claws, are they now natural weapons? No, because the claws are not part of my body. So a meld gives you a tail. It does not mean that tail is a part of your body. The fluff associated with the manticore belt shows you how this is possible: it emerges from the belt, not from the base of your spine where an actual tail would emerge. Fluff is not RAW, but as RAW does not say the tail is a part of you by refusing to label it as a natural attack, the fluff short-circuits the logic that the tail must be a part of your body.
Holding a pair of claws you grifted is far, far from controlling a tail with your mind. And I don't mean telekinesis, I mean... like an appendage. At least that's how MoI presents it.

I see how you could nitpick and say the tail isn't physically part of your body, like you have it equipped or something, but that would be tantamount to saying the claws granted by Girallon Arms wouldn't be natural weapons if the text didn't explicitly say so.

[Deophaun]

I see how you could nitpick and say the tail isn't physically part of your body, like you have it equipped or something, but that would be tantamount to saying the claws granted by Girallon Arms wouldn't be natural weapons if the text didn't explicitly say so.
As I stated in your other thread, the tail emerged from your belt, while the arms emerge from your ribs. The fluff supports the notion that a) the manticore belt is not a natural weapon and b) the girallon arms are. Your reasoning is flawed.

[Darrin]

This looks like a DM's call. The best answer you're going to get is talk it over with the DM, and ask for a ruling one way or the other.