Debuffing big and ugly creatures.

[Mr L.]

Hello,
Recently my party encountered colossal red dragon, we got lucky and managed to kill this one, but I started to think, what, as a party wizard, should I throw at such creature to effectively debuff it or what BFC spell to use on it?

I'm asking not only in context of dragons, but generally creatures having (very) high saves, high SR, AC, tons of HP and so on...
Dragons are maybe tough case here, as they additionally cast spells, fly and tent to be hard-to-kill.

I'm currently 15 lv wizard(transmuter)/red wizard/arcmage, but I would like you guys to treat this question with more general approach for future purposes, meaning all levels, not only wizard/sorc spells... Maybe I should ask about what in general spellcaster should do in such case. And let's assume that buffing fighter is not an option...

Ah, and I would be greateful for some core/faerun solutions as my DM prefers those sources...

[Jack_Simth]

Hello,
Recently my party encountered colossal red dragon, we got lucky and managed to kill this one, but I started to think, what, as a party wizard, should I throw at such creature to effectively debuff it or what BFC spell to use on it?

I'm asking not only in context of dragons, but generally creatures having (very) high saves, high SR, AC, tons of HP and so on...
Dragons are maybe thought case here, as they additionally cast spells, fly and tent to be hard-to-kill.

I'm currently 15 lv wizard(transmuter)/red wizard/arcmage, but I would like you guys to treat this question with more general approach for future purposes, meaning all levels, not only wizard/sorc spells... Maybe I should ask about what in general spellcaster should do in such case. And let's assume that buffing fighter is not an option...

Ah, and I would be greateful for some core/faerun solutions as my DM prefers those sources...Solid Fog, Acid Fog (limit their mobility, no save, no SR, no attack roll), Tiny Hut (block their vision - you cast it around the party), touch attack spells like Enervation (large things tend to have abysmal dex ... although you need to be reasonably sure of beating their SR for most of them).

[The Viscount]

This sort of thing depends on the type of monster. Dragons of course fall to shivering touch. If you really need to overcome SR and aren't using an "SR: no" spell, truecasting helps. Many big meaty monsters, dragons excluded, tend to have lower mental stats, especially Cha, so going after mental stats is a decent plan. Allips summoned withsummon undead IV or V remain viable for a surprisingly long time, as monsters without spells or magic weapons have a very difficult time doing anything.

[yougi]

Against enemies with high SR, I would focus on either buffing the party (haste can go a long way at mid levels, and greater heroism at your current level), or affecting the field of battle in ways that puts you at an advantage (in an enclosed space, cloudkill, acid fog, wall of force, or at lower level grease (not for flyers though) or web). Summons are also interesting, and, against a dragon or other enormous creatures, focusing on those with touch attacks (mostly undead) is a good idea.

Edit: Forgot the "buffing is not an option" part

[Mr L.]

I like the idea about draining mental stats with summoned undeads, I haven't thought about that...

On the other hand I can't see how things like enervation will get me closer to killing sth like that, say a dragon. It has tons of HD and unless I am a sorcerer I will run out of spells before doing any harm to that creature with that spell, which creature meanwhile will take it's sweet little time to slaughter my team if it can't get to me...

Fogs, wall, etc are great for small spaces, I know that, but how about large open space? Imagine we have a dragon in question over a city, it just flies around killing poor citizens with it's breath weapon, how to deal with that case? Solid/acid fog, stinky cloud, wall of X and rest of perfect BFCs won't do me any good in this situation. Great wyrn is bigger than most of areas of effect of those spells.

[Slipperychicken]

On the other hand I can't see how things like enervation will get me closer to killing sth like that, say a dragon. It has tons of HD and unless I am a sorcerer I will run out of spells before doing any harm to that creature with that spell, which creature meanwhile will take it's sweet little time to slaughter my team if it can't get to me...


Penalizes the Dragon's rolls and knocks out its highest-level spells. Obviously this isn't as useful if your DM doesn't utilize dragon spellcasting, but throwing minuses on its saves softens it up for other attacks.


For the clouds, you'd cast them either on the Dragon's space, or directly in front of it. Unless I'm mistaken, Solid Fog would still slow it down (and it doesn't have the maneuverability to move around it). So that could be a way of holding it still while the fighters rush up to beat on it.

[Sith_Happens]

Assay Spell Resistance will take care of your SR problems.

[Kristinn]

You shouldn't underestimate the power of Enervation. 1d6 negative levels hurts everything the dragon does.. You have a 50% chance (2/3 if empowered, 100% if maximized) to deal 4 negative levels or more, knocking out all 9th level spell slots the dragon has. With Assay Spell resistance (preferably Quickened), this isn't hard.

[TuggyNE]

You shouldn't underestimate the power of Enervation. 1d6 negative levels hurts everything the dragon does.. You have a 50% chance (2/3 if empowered, 100% if maximized) to deal 4 negative levels or more, knocking out all 9th level spell slots the dragon has. With Assay Spell resistance (preferably Quickened), this isn't hard.

Enervation only does 1d4, not 1d6 (giving a 25%/50%/100% chance respectively of doing 4+ negative levels). Otherwise, though, this is reasonably sound.

[Cirrylius]

in an enclosed space... wall of force
If you have a tolerant DM, this can be fun in open spaces, too. It wasn't exactly a rule, I don't think, but 2e had several examples of creatures taking hurling or abrupt stopping damage and treating it as a fall from a height of however many feet the creature had travelled in that round.

So just ready a Wall of Force for when the dragon moves his full move speed in one round.

*RRRRRROOOOOOOOWWW-*
*glinglelinglelinge*
*-HHOOOOFF...*

If you've never seen a dragon faceplant into an invisible wall at sixty miles an hour, you haven't really lived.:smallbiggrin:

[yougi]

If you have a tolerant DM, this can be fun in open spaces, too. It wasn't exactly a rule, I don't think, but 2e had several examples of creatures taking hurling or abrupt stopping damage and treating it as a fall from a height of however many feet the creature had travelled in that round.

So just ready a Wall of Force for when the dragon moves his full move speed in one round.

*RRRRRROOOOOOOOWWW-*
*glinglelinglelinge*
*-HHOOOOFF...*

If you've never seen a dragon faceplant into an invisible wall at sixty miles an hour, you haven't really lived.:smallbiggrin:

The "in an enclosed space" was actually referring to Cloudkill, but yeah :smallbiggrin:

[The Viscount]

I feel like there's a spell to downgrade flight maneuverability, but I can't think of its name right now.

[Sith_Happens]

With Assay Spell resistance (preferably Quickened), this isn't hard.

Assay Spell Resistance is already swift.


I feel like there's a spell to downgrade flight maneuverability, but I can't think of its name right now.

I sure hope it specifies what happens if they're already clumsy.

[Mr L.]

You shouldn't underestimate the power of Enervation. 1d6 negative levels hurts everything the dragon does.. You have a 50% chance (2/3 if empowered, 100% if maximized) to deal 4 negative levels or more, knocking out all 9th level spell slots the dragon has. With Assay Spell resistance (preferably Quickened), this isn't hard.

Don't get me wrong. I do not underestimate power of that spell. I just fail to see how a single Enervation (even empowered & maximalized, maybe even another quickend) prevents a colossal dragon from eating me in his round.

As for maneuverability of dragons being mentioned, don't forget they cast spells as well, it's unlikely that I will make them fall, they can simply cast feather fall, flight, and so on...



If you've never seen a dragon faceplant into an invisible wall at sixty miles an hour, you haven't really lived.:smallbiggrin:

it's still not getting me any closer to killing given dragon... Even badly wounded they can heal (at least some of them) or teleport out of reach/away from battlefield just to return later...

[Fouredged Sword]

A large green ogre walks in with a talking donkey

"As I was saying, a wizards defenses are like an onion"

The donkey interrupts.

"Because they make fighters cry?"

"No" the ogre cuts him off sharply "A wizard's defenses come in layers. The greater mirror image and energy immunity keeps you alive for enough rounds that enveneration to have stacked enough negative levels on that your dragon is a mewing kitten. No one spell does everything, except for wish, but that is just because wish does do everything."

[The Viscount]

Don't get me wrong. I do not underestimate power of that spell. I just fail to see how a single Enervation (even empowered & maximalized, maybe even another quickend) prevents a colossal dragon from eating me in his round.

If you need safety form a dragon, use hide from dragons. If you need to end the fight, use shivering touch. Big dragons only have a Dex of 10, and the average damage for shivering touch is 9. If you roll above average, he's helpless.

[eggynack]

If you need safety form a dragon, use hide from dragons. If you need to end the fight, use shivering touch. Big dragons only have a Dex of 10, and the average damage for shivering touch is 9. If you roll above average, he's helpless.
Actually, the average roll on a d6 is a 3.5. Thus, the total average damage on a shivering touch is 10.5, which means that the dragon is helpless on slightly below average rolls.

[Cirrylius]

it's still not getting me any closer to killing given dragon... Even badly wounded they can heal (at least some of them) or teleport out of reach/away from battlefield just to return later...
Context. I'm just saying that Wall of Force can be useful fighting a dragon outside confined spaces, too.

[Slipperychicken]

Actually, the average roll on a d6 is a 3.5. Thus, the total average damage on a shivering touch is 10.5, which means that the dragon is helpless on slightly below average rolls.

Using anydice (http://anydice.com/), you have a 62.5% chance to deal 10 or more Dexterity damage, assuming you hit with an ordinary 3d6 Shivering Touch.

Hitting with two iterations of Shivering Touch (6d6 total) makes it 99.82% likely to deal 10 or more Dexterity damage between them.

[ericgrau]

Empowered ray of enfeeblement. Weakens attacks of dragons and other heavy beaters severely without being a broken poorly edited auto-win against everything like shivering touch.

Assay spell resistance is often a ban target too, but it's still worth it to fire 2 or 3 enfeeble rays until one lands. Or if SR gets really bad you buff your allies instead. Haste, greater invisibility, mass bear's endurance, maybe greater heroism, etc.

Most dragons don't have high level spells like teleport. If you're that high level, you probably have even crazier things to worry about.

[HalfQuart]

If you need to end the fight, use shivering touch. Big dragons only have a Dex of 10, and the average damage for shivering touch is 9. If you roll above average, he's helpless.
RAW, "a character with Dexterity 0 is paralyzed", and "all dragons have immunity to sleep and paralysis effects", so you might want to run this by your DM before using it in combat... otherwise things might not work out the way you think... or the combat may devolve into a rules argument, which is never fun.

Note: I'm also not trying to derail this thread into an argument about whether Shivering Touch incapacitates dragons.

[Slipperychicken]

RAW, "a character with Dexterity 0 is paralyzed"

I don't see "paralyzed" in this definition. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#abilityScoreLoss)


Dexterity 0 means that the character cannot move at all. He stands motionless, rigid, and helpless.


The conditions summary entry you refer to (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#abilityDamaged) does not override this rule. The paralyzed condition is applied in addition to being "motionless, rigid, and helpless".

[The Viscount]

Easy mistake to make. Paralyzed renders you with an effective Dex of 0, but the reverse is not true.

[ericgrau]

Last time this was discussed IIRC it was unresolved. RAI I'd still say someone immune to paralysis with dex 0 couldn't move. He might flop randomly at best (if not rigid) but any kind of motor control is impossible. I think the rules mean (RAI) dragons are immune to Paralysis with a capital P effects, but if you don't have the means to move then you don't have the means to move. You're still basically paralyzed with a lowercase p. Regardless I don't think this is a TO thread so it's up to the DM, and I think he should avoid the whole spell along with assay spell resistance. But perhaps the OP will tell us otherwise?

[eggynack]

Last time this was discussed IIRC it was unresolved. RAI I'd still say someone immune to paralysis with dex 0 couldn't move. He might flop randomly at best but any kind of motor control is impossible. Regardless I don't think this is a TO thread so it's up to the DM, and I think he should avoid the whole spell along with assay spell resistance. But perhaps the OP will tell us otherwise?
It seems pretty resolved to me. What's the source on your argument? I went a-searching, and I haven't been able to find it yet.

[ericgrau]

Last time there was a 40 page RAW thread on it. You want another? :smalltongue: It's not a weekly thing like monkday so you might have to dig back a few months. Who knows maybe those still discussing it at the end did settle or give up. As you might guess I have a short attention span for TO.

[eggynack]

Last time there was a 40 page RAW thread on it. You want another? :smalltongue: It's not a weekly thing like monkday so you might have to dig back a few months. Who knows maybe those still discussing it at the end did settle or give up. As you might guess I have a short attention span for TO.
I mostly just want the book and page number for halfquart's quote. Without it, there doesn't seem to be any indication that the loss of dexterity causes paralysis.

[olentu]

I mostly just want the book and page number for halfquart's quote. Without it, there doesn't seem to be any indication that the loss of dexterity causes paralysis.

PHB page 304 or DMG page 300 as I recall.

[eggynack]

PHB page 304 or DMG page 300 as I recall.
Ah. Thanks. I can see how it might be ambiguous, given that that quote seems to be in direct contradiction with the other quotes in this thread. It's an odd thing.

[ericgrau]

Ah. Thanks. I can see how it might be ambiguous, given that that quote seems to be in direct contradiction with the other quotes in this thread. It's an odd thing.

Well if it were not for immunities they would be pretty much the same thing and that may be why the authors wrote it like that. I did notice in the dragon type description it says they are immune to paralysis effects. So that could be a difference between 0 dex and hold monster right there. And between spinal injuries and hold monster for that matter (pictures a draconic Professor X).

[The Viscount]

Ah. Thanks. I can see how it might be ambiguous, given that that quote seems to be in direct contradiction with the other quotes in this thread. It's an odd thing.

Yeah, the DMG is contradicting itself here (page 289 and 300). Sorry, people. Didn't realize it was a wobbly RAW issue.