Need advice quick! Monk vs. Wizard (Not what you think)

[Talakeal]

I am DMing a game this evening and want to run an experiment, to see if a properly optimized monk can defeat a wizard who doesn't have any prep time for the encounter.

I have already made the monk, and want to have a one on one fight between him and the party wizard.

The problem is, I need to get the wizard away from the rest of the party and into a situation where they will actually need to fight the monk rather than simply teleporting away the moment things look back.

Any ideas how I can do this without the situation looking too contrived or resorting to outright DM fiat?

FYI This is a high level campaign but with most of the "cheese" spells fixed.

[Snowbluff]

Make it so the Monk has something the Wizard wants. Like a tome or a macguffin he knows will help the party.

As for not being able to prepare, depending on the Wizard you might as well be saying not being able to prepare spells. I don't know about you, but I usually have a lot of buffs running 24/7 when I play wizard.

[Madfellow]

This sounds like a very bad idea with the words "impending disaster" written all over it... unless it is handled VERY CAREFULLY. Here are my thoughts:

1) Do not try to separate the wizard from the rest of the party.
2) Do not try to lock down the wizard's teleporting ability.
3) Do not try to kill the wizard.

If you want to set up a fight between the monk and the wizard, then here's how I think you should do it:

1) The monk shows up and challenges the party wizard to single combat for basically the reason you described. He wants to see if pure physical strength can overcome arcane mastery. Have him offer the wizard some grand reward if he can beat him fairly in single combat. And if the wizard wins, make sure the monk holds up his end of the bargain.
2) If the rest of the party wants to jump into the fight and rescue the wizard if he gets hurt, let them do that.
3) If the wizard or anyone else in the party wants to cheat, let them do that, but deny them the reward for winning.
4) If the wizard loses, do not kill him and do your best to make the defeat not humiliating.
5) If the wizard loses and wants revenge, let him get it sometime in the near future.
6) Do not cheat or fudge any rolls. In fact, I think all rolls should be made in full view of the entire party.

[Talakeal]

Make it so the Monk has something the Wizard wants. Like a tome or a macguffin he knows will help the party.

As for not being able to prepare, depending on the Wizard you might as well be saying not being able to prepare spells. I don't know about you, but I usually have a lot of buffs running 24/7 when I play wizard.

Buffs are fine, I just meant not being tailored to fight a monk or counter his specific abilities.

[The Glyphstone]

The problem, as usual, is that the 'usual' buffs/prepared spells for a wizard are also ones that hard-counter a monk simply as a side effect, since they're useful against pretty much anything.

Flight? Locks down any melee enemy who can't also fly. Monks depend on outside help (items or spells) to fly.
Invisibility? Renders any enemy who can't cast See Invisibility/True Seeing helpless. Monks happen to fall into this category.
Dimensional Lock/Anchor is a good counter-wizard utility spell to ensure you don't end up on the recieving end of a retributive scry-and-die. Completely coincidentally, it also locks out a Monk's only tactical-scale movement ability.
Dispelling enemies is a no-brainer, with the ability to strip buffs and disable magic items. Monks are barely above commoners to begin with, this is just adding insult to injury.

This is just a sample, but it's symptomatic - Monks struggle because their abilities can be countered by accident.

[Talakeal]

This sounds like a very bad idea with the words "impending disaster" written all over it... unless it is handled VERY CAREFULLY. Here are my thoughts:

1) Do not try to separate the wizard from the rest of the party.
2) Do not try to lock down the wizard's teleporting ability.
3) Do not try to kill the wizard.

If you want to set up a fight between the monk and the wizard, then here's how I think you should do it:

1) The monk shows up and challenges the party wizard to single combat for basically the reason you described. He wants to see if pure physical strength can overcome arcane mastery. Have him offer the wizard some grand reward if he can beat him fairly in single combat. And if the wizard wins, make sure the monk holds up his end of the bargain.
2) If the rest of the party wants to jump into the fight and rescue the wizard if he gets hurt, let them do that.
3) If the wizard or anyone else in the party wants to cheat, let them do that, but deny them the reward for winning.
4) If the wizard loses, do not kill him and do your best to make the defeat not humiliating.
5) If the wizard loses and wants revenge, let him get it sometime in the near future.
6) Do not cheat or fudge any rolls. In fact, I think all rolls should be made in full view of the entire party.

You had some really good ideas in here, although it is a little biased in favor of the PCs (ensuring that the enemy won't cheat but setting up the situation that the player's can cheat easily is a bit too much.)

What I ended up doing was having the enemy propose that rather than fighting they would each send one champion to have a duel to decide the outcome of a war without needless loss of life.

Both sides had to take an oath that they would not flee or force the other to leave the arena until one side was dead or conceded and that no outside interference would be allowed.

In the end the wizard ran out of spells without being able to land anything significant on the monk and then conceded when it came down to fisticuffs.

Also, I do roll all dice in the open, as does my entire table. If the players really think the DM is cheating on dice rolls I think the group has some pretty serious endemic issues.

Also, not sure why this got moved to the 3.5 specific forum as it wasn't a 3.5 specific question, but this works.

[Wings of Peace]

What qualifies as unprepared in this case? Because at high levels with some careful spell selection the wizard can still have a pretty vicious amount of tricks even if they aren't tailored to the exact circumstances he finds himself in.

[Spuddles]

The problem, as usual, is that the 'usual' buffs/prepared spells for a wizard are also ones that hard-counter a monk simply as a side effect, since they're useful against pretty much anything.

Flight? Locks down any melee enemy who can't also fly. Monks depend on outside help (items or spells) to fly.
Invisibility? Renders any enemy who can't cast See Invisibility/True Seeing helpless. Monks happen to fall into this category.
Dimensional Lock/Anchor is a good counter-wizard utility spell to ensure you don't end up on the recieving end of a retributive scry-and-die. Completely coincidentally, it also locks out a Monk's only tactical-scale movement ability.
Dispelling enemies is a no-brainer, with the ability to strip buffs and disable magic items. Monks are barely above commoners to begin with, this is just adding insult to injury.

This is just a sample, but it's symptomatic - Monks struggle because their abilities can be countered by accident.

A level 15 monk, at typical encounter ranges, can spot and especially hear a flying, invisible wizard. Invis does nothing for move silent and only grants +20 to hide. I've never seen a pure wizard build sink skill points in to Hi&MS.

And as long as a monk's dependency on an item for flight is considered "outside help", you may as well consider a wizard's spell book "outside help." using an item to gain flight is as integral a part of the system as base attack bonus.

[Mato]

@Suddles, I'm pretty sure his list was based off the idea it's sorcerer vs wizard. Dispel can't even affect magic items unless it's single target and exactly what spell buffs would the monk have besides greater mighty wallop?

Anyway, you could make the fight interesting by using dark moon disciple, invisible fist, a ring of freedom of movement, a ring of evasion, a tabard of valor, and +1 soulfire bracers. Just have the monk run around pulling his punches while insulting the wizard.

[The Glyphstone]

@Suddles, I'm pretty sure his list was based off the idea it's sorcerer vs wizard. Dispel can't even affect magic items unless it's single target and exactly what spell buffs would the monk have besides greater mighty wallop

GMW...Permancied Greater Magic Fist if he doesn't want to shell out for an AoMF, Fly or Overland Flight (if he doesn't have a Cloak of the Bat, Wings of Flying, or Winged Boots), Permancied Enlarge Person, Permancied See Invisibility - there's lots of spells a Monk might have on him if he knew he was going up against a Wizard and wanted to have the best shot possible.


A level 15 monk, at typical encounter ranges, can spot and especially hear a flying, invisible wizard. Invis does nothing for move silent and only grants +20 to hide. I've never seen a pure wizard build sink skill points in to Hi&MS.

And as long as a monk's dependency on an item for flight is considered "outside help", you may as well consider a wizard's spell book "outside help." using an item to gain flight is as integral a part of the system as base attack bonus.

If the wizard is engaging the Monk from within 30 feet, he's an idiot and deserves to lose the fight.


A creature can generally notice the presence of an active invisible creature within 30 feet with a DC 20 Spot check. The observer gains a hunch that “something’s there” but can’t see it or target it accurately with an attack. A creature who is holding still is very hard to notice (DC 30). An inanimate object, an unliving creature holding still, or a completely immobile creature is even harder to spot (DC 40). It’s practically impossible (+20 DC) to pinpoint an invisible creature’s location with a Spot check, and even if a character succeeds on such a check, the invisible creature still benefits from total concealment (50% miss chance).

So DC40 if he's within 30 feet, and DC No if he's outside of 30ft. Listening for him you've got, but that doesn't help the airborne issue.

2) Spellbook is a wizard class feature. Magic Item is not a Monk class feature.

3) Dispel Magic is listed because, as I emphasized, it's a general utility debuff spell, for use on single opponents. Effective against another spellcaster, effective against non-casters who have received buffs, effective against monsters with SLA's...toolbox spell. Boots with wings and bat wing cloaks, for instance, are rather conspicuous and a good target to dispel, since items also have incredibly low CLs by default, grounding the enemy. (Personally, I like using a Rod of Chain Spell on my Dispels to wipe the target and shut down every item he's wearing in one shot, but this might be core-only).



Anyway, you could make the fight interesting by using dark moon disciple, invisible fist, a ring of freedom of movement, a ring of evasion, a tabard of valor, and +1 soulfire bracers. Just have the monk run around pulling his punches while insulting the wizard.

This is probably your best bet, OP. As always, it really depends on the op level of your wizard player - a Fireball chucker wearing Mage Armor is going to be dead meat, a Batman wizard with Hearts of X, Overland Flight, and Crafted Contigencies is basically going to have to throw the fight. But the DMD+IF+listed items is going to be annoying as hell to actually land a disabling hit on even for the Batwizard, and could drag the fight out long enough for the Wizard to start making mistakes.

[Gavinfoxx]

Fight him while flying, from at least 100 feet. 1000 would be nice.

[Tvtyrant]

What keeps the Wizard from casting Resilient Sphere on him/herself, buffing him/herself and then lowering the sphere and killing the monk? Unless the Monk is toting around a Rod of Cancellation they cannot do anything against that.

Edit: I suppose the Monk could use their Abundant Step to get inside the Sphere, but then they could not get out.

[The Glyphstone]

What keeps the Wizard from casting Resilient Sphere on him/herself, buffing him/herself and then lowering the sphere and killing the monk? Unless the Monk is toting around a Rod of Cancellation they cannot do anything against that.

Edit: I suppose the Monk could use their Abundant Step to get inside the Sphere, but then they could not get out.

That would be the most hilarious way to beat a monk ever.

Sphere goes up.
Monk Abundant Steps inside the sphere...his turn is over.
Wizard Quickens a Cloudkill or Acid Fog or something, then Dimension Door/Teleports outside the sphere and makes popcorn. Budget-grade Forcecage.

Then again, if the monk has Mage Slayer, it could go very poorly for the wizard.

[GreenETC]

What I ended up doing was having the enemy propose that rather than fighting they would each send one champion to have a duel to decide the outcome of a war without needless loss of life.

Both sides had to take an oath that they would not flee or force the other to leave the arena until one side was dead or conceded and that no outside interference would be allowed.

In the end the wizard ran out of spells without being able to land anything significant on the monk and then conceded when it came down to fisticuffs.
May I ask what level this was at? I know you said high level, but I'd like to know some information about the levels/how the fight went/what sort of stuff he was up against.

[TuggyNE]

That would be the most hilarious way to beat a monk ever.

Sphere goes up.
Monk Abundant Steps inside the sphere...his turn is over.
Wizard Quickens a Cloudkill or Acid Fog or something, then Dimension Door/Teleports outside the sphere and makes popcorn. Budget-grade Forcecage.

Then again, if the monk has Mage Slayer, it could go very poorly for the wizard.

For this, contingency/Craft Contingent Spell seems advisable. Even blocks Sun School stunts. (For best results, use Invisible acid fog before putting up the sphere.)

[Kelb_Panthera]

This sounds like a very bad idea with the words "impending disaster" written all over it... unless it is handled VERY CAREFULLY. Here are my thoughts:This is true, but for what I suspect is just the opposite reason of what this poster thinks it is.


1) Do not try to separate the wizard from the rest of the party.
2) Do not try to lock down the wizard's teleporting ability.
3) Do not try to kill the wizard.

If you want to set up a fight between the monk and the wizard, then here's how I think you should do it:

1) The monk shows up and challenges the party wizard to single combat for basically the reason you described. He wants to see if pure physical strength can overcome arcane mastery. Have him offer the wizard some grand reward if he can beat him fairly in single combat. And if the wizard wins, make sure the monk holds up his end of the bargain.
2) If the rest of the party wants to jump into the fight and rescue the wizard if he gets hurt, let them do that.
3) If the wizard or anyone else in the party wants to cheat, let them do that, but deny them the reward for winning.
4) If the wizard loses, do not kill him and do your best to make the defeat not humiliating.
5) If the wizard loses and wants revenge, let him get it sometime in the near future.
6) Do not cheat or fudge any rolls. In fact, I think all rolls should be made in full view of the entire party.

Following this advice would be utterly suicidal to the monk, unless the wizard is the lowest of low-op.

You don't beat a wizard in a straight, honest fight unless you're a t1 or t2 class yourself.

You beat a wizard by gaining access to the spells that hard-counter the typical wizard's tactics.

First, you lure the wizard into an area that's under the effect of at least a hallow with dimensional anchor or, better, a forbidance effect; no teleporting in, out, or within. It's infinitely preferable to have this area in an place with a relatively low ceiling and several places to provide cover.

Once they're in the no 'port zone hit them with a dimensional anchor effect in the suprise round to make sure they can't port when they start flying about or otherwise leave the dimensional travel barring spell's AoE.

Carry a spell-blade dagger or get a crafted contingent spell keyed to counter greater dispel magic and an item that produces the effect of lesser globe of invulnerability.

Be able to fly, obviously.

Find a way to get your saves and your touch AC as high as you can (shouldn't be too hard for a monk) and try to get both evasion (ditto) and mettle (not so much).

Have an escape plan. Your own method of teleportation is best, just be sure not to get caught in your own no 'port zone.

If you can't, at least, pull together the equipment to setup this ambush, don't even bother showing up. You will only hurt.

[Tvtyrant]

That would be the most hilarious way to beat a monk ever.

Sphere goes up.
Monk Abundant Steps inside the sphere...his turn is over.
Wizard Quickens a Cloudkill or Acid Fog or something, then Dimension Door/Teleports outside the sphere and makes popcorn. Budget-grade Forcecage.

Then again, if the monk has Mage Slayer, it could go very poorly for the wizard.
It's too bad there is no super-create water spells (that I know of.) The sphere lasts long enough you could simply drown the monk, and drowning sucks as a combat tactic in D&D.

[Kelb_Panthera]

It's too bad there is no super-create water spells (that I know of.) The sphere lasts long enough you could simply drown the monk, and drowning sucks as a combat tactic in D&D.

*Cough cough (flashflood) cough*

What's that about sandstorm page 114?

:smallamused::smallbiggrin:

[Tvtyrant]

*Cough cough (flashflood) cough*

What's that about sandstorm page 114?

:smallamused::smallbiggrin:

Many thanks! I now know the best spell for dropping weight on people and have a way to flood tunnels!

Fun fact: 100,000 cubic ft. of water weighs about 2,516,000 pounds?

That spell also produces 11 times as much water as the largest swimming pool on earth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Alfonso_del_Mar), although it is nothing compared to Niagra Falls.

[DMVerdandi]

Show us the stat sheets of the characters.
Does the wizard actually prepare different spells every day, or does he have a bread and butter list?

How well did you optimize the monk, what did you focus on, and why do you feel this is necessary?

If you want to trap the mage, brag like hell. Joke him for being a book toting worm, not good enough to lick the dirt off of your feet. Challenge his honor as a spellcaster, and walk straight up to him and slap him.

Have outsiders heckling the wizard (You control all NPC's, so you control their actions). Make the duel on a grassy field.

That should be enough. Taunts are usually well enough.
Also, have a cash prize available, and possibly a healer on standby to revive the first person who dies.

[Juntao112]

That should be enough. Taunts are usually well enough.
Roll your charisma based skill check...

[DMVerdandi]

Roll your charisma based skill check...

That would work if you were using intimidate or diplomacy.
Taunting is neither, and even one with low charisma can succeed at taunting.
It is an affront to ones pride, not a means of rhetorical convincing.

You can taunt someone by flashing, flipping the bird, or a simply yo mama joke. Needs 0 force of character. It's just insults.
Intimidation works by invoking fear in someone, and diplomacy in invoking civility.

I wouldn't rule a roll be made.
It would be a conscious decision based on cost benefit analysis.
Is the prize worth it? Will he win? ect.
If you didn't want the wizard to have a choice, THEN you would use diplomacy or intimidate.

Simply proposing an exibition match requires no roll. It's a proposition.

[Mithril Leaf]

Monks have good will saves, pick up nice feathered wings from the fiend folio, only 10 grand for non-magical flight. At that point, antimagic is a viable option because the monk is at least a little more competent than the wizard at that point. Generally anything that works in AMFs is good for a Monk vs Wizard fight.

[Tokiko Mima]

Honestly, I can't think of anything that would help a pure, high level monk ever beat a wizard that didn't make repeated mistakes in tactics. Monk levels are pretty much a proverbial albatross on your neck.

Now, if said the challenge was instead to beat an unprepared average high level wizard with a character that primarily uses unarmed strike and fights in no armor, that could be done. But the build would not have very many monk levels, that's for sure. My idea would be to have an unexpected form of transport, and put out enough pure damage in a single round of attacks to drop the wizard instantly.

But then, that would be sort of anticlimactic, wouldn't it? Drama is hard. Also, it wouldn't work twice, because the second time the wizard is going to prevent you from closing.

Anyway, more to the point of the OP, probably the easiest way would be for the monk to rig a trap. For example, have him set up a puzzle room with two solutions; a difficult one that lets them through to the next area safely, and an easy obvious one that casts something like feeblemind, baleful polymorph, and crushing hand on everyone in the room. The duration of the trap spell would be short, perhaps a minute or so. You would then make it obvious to the players how long it takes for the spell to wear off. After explaining that, the exit door opens, and in steps the monk. Begin combat.

The trap relies on player laziness, they tend to try the easy way and only do the hard one if the easy one fails. You could count on the wizards preparation to spare him from the worst effects of the trap, or just have the monk fix the trap to exclude the wizard on purpose. It depends on his motivation, I guess. Why does the monk want to fight the wizard anyway?

[Dayaz]

You all realize the OP has already had the encounter, right?

[undead hero]

You all realize the OP has already had the encounter, right?

Do you really think that would stop the playground?

Also this was pretty much what I expected from the thread.... :(

[Talakeal]

May I ask what level this was at? I know you said high level, but I'd like to know some information about the levels/how the fight went/what sort of stuff he was up against.

As I said previously, this is not standard 3.5. I am explicitly doing this to test class balance using my homebrew rules to see if they really are more or less balanced.

The duel took place at the equivalent of level 18.

[The Glyphstone]

It was moved to 3.5, btw, because you had simply said 'Monk vs. Wizard, high level, with cheese spells fixed'. You didn't mention until this post that you were testing a homebrew system, so future threads like that should clarify the scope of the changes you're making (which would also get you much more topical/relevant advice).

[Talakeal]

It was moved to 3.5, btw, because you had simply said 'Monk vs. Wizard, high level, with cheese spells fixed'. You didn't mention until this post that you were testing a homebrew system, so future threads like that should clarify the scope of the changes you're making (which would also get you much more topical/relevant advice).

As I said, not mad that it got moved. By the time it got moved the fight was already over, and the specific system I get advice for is irrelevant so long as there are monks and seemingly omnipotent wizards and teleportation effects.

I didn't mention any system specifics because mechanics were not relevant, it was simply a narrative / GMing issue about how to get a mage and a monk alone in an arena without the mage simply running away if things went south.

[Pickford]

3) Dispel Magic is listed because, as I emphasized, it's a general utility debuff spell, for use on single opponents. Effective against another spellcaster, effective against non-casters who have received buffs, effective against monsters with SLA's...toolbox spell. Boots with wings and bat wing cloaks, for instance, are rather conspicuous and a good target to dispel, since items also have incredibly low CLs by default, grounding the enemy. (Personally, I like using a Rod of Chain Spell on my Dispels to wipe the target and shut down every item he's wearing in one shot, but this might be core-only).

For dispel magic the roll is 1d20 + cl (max 10) vs a permancied gmf which has a required minimum caster level of 13 (meaning the DC to beat is, at a minimum, 24 (11 + spell's CL))

So...if the chances of success for a level 10+ encounter are only 40%. Not bad really, but not great. (Greater Dispel Magic would up those chances to 60%...but then it's a level 6 spell slot, instead of level 3)

[kulosle]

You had some really good ideas in here, although it is a little biased in favor of the PCs (ensuring that the enemy won't cheat but setting up the situation that the player's can cheat easily is a bit too much.)\

If the players end up needing to resort to cheating then you have you're answer. The monk would have won on his own. And the monk would know that too. Also you can have the monk have allies as well. To keep him safe. Even better is this monk and a psion could have a bet going on to see if he could be up a wizard.

[Talakeal]

So a couple of days have passed and now the wizard player is saying he didn't really lose because I cheated. How should I respond to this?

Is being misled into an encounter "cheating" on a DM's part? Is a wizard who doesn't know who is fighting until the encounter begins actually begins at a huge disadvantage over a martial class?

In character he was tricked into accepting the dual*, and OOC I knew his build** while he did not know who he was up against***.


*: The setup was the humans the fey are at war. A large battle is about to be fought over a city which will cause much loss of life on both sides. The fey propose they instead handle it in a more civilized manner. A wizard's dual between the two champions on each side with the greatest knowledge of the arcane. The winner will get the city and the loser will give it up without a fight.

Once the champions have entered in the arena and taken an oath not to leave (and their allies an oath not to intervene), the enemy "wizard" is revealed to be a monk with maxed out spell craft and knowledge arcana rather than a true spell caster, and proceeds to avoid everything the PC wizard can throw at him and then once he is out of spells beat him into submission.

**: In my campaign all caster's are spontaneous casters, and the wizard literally had over 500 spells to choose from in any given round, so it's not like he actually memorized a bunch of counter magic spells and couldn't call upon the right spell for the job.

***: Nothing was stopping the PCs from using divinations or knowledge skills to learn more about the situation, but they chose not to.

[The Glyphstone]

This is the same dysfunctional group of nuts that you are still playing with despite every insane incident you've told us about, right?

Sounds like the same old sour grapes for not being handed ultimate power on a gilded platter they've demonstrated previously.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Tell your player he can stop whining like a little ***** any time he feels like it and that he knows where the door is if he doesn't like how you run a game.

To paraphrase Sun Tzu; the essence of war is deception. Taking the enemy's word at face value is the height of stupidity and he got what he deserved for doing so.

He also lost despite utterly overwhelming advantage. He's just being a sore loser. Ignore it.

[angry_bear]

It's only a disadvantage if the wizard did a poor job of selecting spells, and by your description of the homebrew, that's not even a relevant factor. Granted it was a bit of a deception on your part, but it's not like you had a kobold enter the arena, and then suddenly turn into a Pit Fiend when the fight began or something. The scenario you laid out was fair, and it definitely wasn't cheating. Misleading? Sure, but the challenge was issued by Fey, that alone should have been a heads up that things weren't going to be as simple as wizard vs wizard.