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yougi
2013-06-09, 12:03 PM
So I'm starting to DM a heavily house-ruled game of (what started out as) 3.5 D&D with 5 players. Last night, we started "arguing" on whether we should start rolling initiative every round. One of the players used to DM a 1E game we recently finished, and is a firm believer in the rerolling of initiative every round. The other 4 are neutral towards the idea (some are actually torn, others (actually other) don't care), and I'm unsure of what it entails. We also discussed group initiative (1 roll for PCs as a group, 1 roll for enemies as a group) vs "regular" initiative (1 for each PC, 1 for each "type" of enemies) vs individual initiative (1 for each PC, 1 for each individual enemy).

So I thought, let's come to the Playground, where people have opinions and arguments about these things. So... discuss.

I'd also be interested in hearing about other systems of determining who goes first.

Let me start:
Rolling initiative once means I know exactly when I act and can prepare my actions accordingly. It's simpler with large groups. It ensures that buffs/debuffs with a set duration affect everyone for the same amount.

Rolling per round creates surprise and keeps players from forming a strategy based on metagame information like the initiative order. It's not that complicated: you count down from 25-30, and when somebody has that number, they act. Doesn't take much longer. No need to name one Init-Tracker.

Group Inits are simpler, take away lots of delay actions, allows groups to have tactical deployment. It makes it subtler to add back-up in the middle of the fight without having to tamper with the initiative order. It however puts lots of pressure on winning that first initiative.

Individual Inits are more complex, but more realistic. They present all opponents as equals, as opposed to having these 12 bugbears acting at 18, their bugbear leader at 11, and his bugbear bodyguard at 4, which points out which are special.

What do you guys think?

Greylond
2013-06-09, 01:56 PM
HackMaster uses a continous count system that goes by seconds. Each action has a set number Counts(Seconds). Weapon Attacks start out with a base Weapon Speed and Specializing in the Weapon Speed for a weapon lowers that down to a minimum tme. Initiative is really the same thing as Surprise and is only rolled at the beginning of combat. Init Dice starts with a d12 for those unaware and goes down based on basic awareness/expectation of combat and certain class or Race abilities(Thieves, Elves and Halflings have faster reaction times than others).

It sounds and reads a lot more complicated than it actually is. Combat runs really smooth and flows without using an artificial "Round/Turn" concept.

The basic rules for HackMaster can be downloaded for Free if you would like to check it out;

http://www.kenzerco.com/free_files/hackmaster_basic_free_.pdf

yougi
2013-06-09, 02:03 PM
HackMaster uses a continous count system that goes by seconds. Each action has a set number Counts(Seconds). Weapon Attacks start out with a base Weapon Speed and Specializing in the Weapon Speed for a weapon lowers that down to a minimum tme. Initiative is really the same thing as Surprise and is only rolled at the beginning of combat. Init Dice starts with a d12 for those unaware and goes down based on basic awareness/expectation of combat and certain class or Race abilities(Thieves, Elves and Halflings have faster reaction times than others).

It sounds and reads a lot more complicated than it actually is. Combat runs really smooth and flows without using an artificial "Round/Turn" concept.

The basic rules for HackMaster can be downloaded for Free if you would like to check it out;

http://www.kenzerco.com/free_files/hackmaster_basic_free_.pdf

Hmmmm, that looks very interesting. But how does it work around the table?

Greylond
2013-06-09, 02:33 PM
Combats start at 1, everyone rolls Init based on the GM's ruling of their awareness. Once your first count comes up, you get to attack or move. When you swing, you can't swing again until your weapon speed comes up again. Unless you are no longer engaged with an enemy. You can move at any time, even if engaged in melee. The GM just announces the Count moving up and you resolve any actions that happen during that count and then the GM announces the count moves up again.

That's the basics, there's a lot more detail and exceptions but the basics are fairly easy.

There's a Combat Example as if it were played by the characters from Knights of the Dinner Table here;
http://www.kenzerco.com/hackmaster/downloads/HMPHB_illustrated_example.pdf

Like I said, just reading it can sound complicated but in practice it is easy and combat flows without getting bogged down if the GM keeps advancing the Count.

yougi
2013-06-09, 03:04 PM
And is it played on a battlemat? Are all speeds multiples of 5? If yes, that leaves very huge gap between a speed 5 and a speed 10; if not, then how does it work on the mat?

And are you considered to achieve your action when your number comes up, or to start doing it? Spells, especially, are not touched upon by the KotDT...

And I saw the comic, but what the designers tell you happens and what really happens are usually very different.

Xeratos
2013-06-09, 03:09 PM
My group has always gone with everyone rolling initiative once at the beginning, and the DM rolling one for each npc/monster involved. If someone joins a fight in progress, the DM rolls that person or monster's initiative and they act at that point in the order.

Combat kind of takes long enough already without everyone having to reroll every single round. Plus you have to worry about things like a monster at the bottom of initiative one round going to the top the next and getting two turns in a row.

Just going to throw this out there, but I've been working on my own system rules, and I have a concept I call "Decaying Initiative." I'm sure someone out there is going to read this description and go, "They already came up with that in Game X," but this is the basic idea...

Everyone rolls initiative, and it goes highest to lowest. However, after your turn, your total decays by an amount of (in D&D terms) 10 - dex modifier. If you have a 2 mod, you lose 8 off your initiative. If you've got 4, it's only 6. This moves you down to a new spot, and as soon as you get to that low point, it's your turn to act again. Once everyone reaches 0 or less, it's fresh rolls all around and start over.

Example:
Jim has a dex mod of 3, and rolls an 19, for a total of 22.
Bob has a dex mod of 4, and rolls a 11, for a total of 15.
Sally has a dex of 0, and rolls a 12, for a total of 12.

Jim goes first, at 22. After his turn, he loses 7 off his initiative (10 - 3), bringing him down to 15. (Jim: 15, Bob: 15, Sally: 12)
Bob and Jim are tied at 15, but because Jim has already went once, Bob acts next, at 15. After his turn, he loses 6 (10 - 4), bringing him down to 9. (Jim: 15, Bob: 9, Sally: 12)
Jim gets a second turn before Sally because his initiative was just that much higher. He acts again, and his initiative drops another 7, down to 8. (Jim: 8, Bob: 9, Sally: 12)
Sally acts next, and loses the full 10 off her initiative, bringing her to 2. (Jim: 8, Bob: 9, Sally: 2)
Bob goes next, and loses another 6, bringing his count down to 3. (Jim: 8, Bob: 3, Sally: 2)
Jim takes his last turn, bringing him to to 1. (Jim: 1, Bob: 3, Sally: 2)
Sally takes her second turn, and drops to -8, ending her actions for the initiative cycle. (Jim: 1, Bob: 3, Sally: -8)
Bob takes his last turn, bringing him down to -3. (Jim: 1, Bob: -3, Sally: -8)
Jim takes his last turn, and drops to -6. (Jim: -6, Bob: -3, Sally: -8)
Everyone is now below 0. They reroll their initiative and start over.

I haven't actually gotten a chance to try this out yet, and I'm not really sure how well it'll work. My goal was to lend more weight to base stats as opposed to random dice roll luck. Because dexterity helps curb decay, having a higher dex allows for more actions each initiative cycle. The biggest problem I see is while it might balance better in the long run, getting 2 or 3 actions as opposed to your opponent's 1 in the first round might end combat before the enemy even gets a chance to fight back.

Greylond
2013-06-09, 03:12 PM
Doesn't have to be played on any kind of grid, you just use distance measuring, i.e. a ruler. Or use Hexes or Squares if that works for you. I've run it on maptools without a Grid and used the built-in measuring tool in MapTools.

You complete your action on your count, spells take a certain number of seconds to complete, and once you complete a spell you suffer Spell Fatigue(which equals Casting time plus 5), during which you can't do much other than stagger around at a half-walk.

Combat works exactly like it is designed. This game was made by Game Designers who love the game and they wrote a game that they love to play. They play it a couple of times a week(or so). At least one development game that I know goes on and a couple of them run other games for friends.

Like I said, once you've played it a couple of times it is really easy. Combat flows and works well. The only time I've regularly seen people have trouble with it are those that continue to attempt to apply artificial rounds/turns to the game, i.e. bad habits from learned from years of playing other games. :)

yougi
2013-06-09, 03:24 PM
*snippity snip*

Well, it really comes down to what Greylond is saying, with an added turn system. It's substractive instead of additive, but I doubt it makes much of a difference.


*snippacadabra*

I really have to try this now.

I'll keep that it mind for the game system I'm designing, but I doubt it would work in 3.5 without screwing up the balance between weapons...

Rhynn
2013-06-09, 04:15 PM
I use a really simple system for AD&D: both sides roll 1d6, no modifiers, at the start of each round. Lower score announces actions first, higher score resolves actions first. This means the winners can react to and pre-empt the losers' actions, moving to intercept them, setting spears against charges, etc. On a tie, everyone resolves simultaneously, which means that even if you kill an orc, it'll get its attacks on you.

I mostly like the HackMaster-style tick count for games with guns: it makes perfect sense for Kenzer & Co.'s Aces & Eights (wild west game), and for Twilight 2013, which has the best modern small arms RPG combat system ever. It works sort of similarly but in the other direction: your base initiative depends on your load carried (not just weight; you can't be unencumbered if you've got a combat belt on and carry a rifle, etc.); then the GM starts counting down from the highest initiative. Each action takes X ticks to complete (for shooting, it depends on weapon, range, and whether it's a snap shot or aimed, etc.). If playing its simple, actions resolve when you declare them and you get to act after X ticks; if playing it complex, actions resolve after having counter down (you start a 7-tick action on initiative 28, it'll resolve on 21). I love it, because it can create accidental simultaneity and results like a guy pulling the pin out of a grenade, getting shot in the head, and dropping a live grenade... or a guy throwing a grenade, and someone scooping it up and throwing it back! After 0-count, you start over: everyone either presses or holds, and if everybody holds, there's a pause, during which different kinds of actions can be taken (field repair, setting an ambush, giving first aid, etc.).

Xefas
2013-06-09, 06:57 PM
Marvel Heroic Roleplaying has the simplest initiative system, I think.

When a person is done with their actions, they pick who gets to go next. Everyone has to go once before a person can be picked a second time, and so on. The person who goes first in an encounter is decided on democratically, and if the GM wants an NPC to go first, they have to pay with meta currency for the privilege, in proportion to how difficult various heroes on the PC side would be to ambush (they have to pay through the nose to ambush Spiderman, for instance).

warty goblin
2013-06-09, 07:45 PM
I've always liked the initiative system in the original Sovereign Stone game, wherein everybody declared their action, rolled it, and whomever got the best result went first. Players down the initiative order were free to change their action to defense if they want. It simply captures the idea that the better fighter will, on average, control the initiative in a fight, since the inferior will be too busy parrying to get in many attacks of their own.

Spells also takes forever to cast, which is awesome.

yougi
2013-06-09, 08:34 PM
I use a really simple system for AD&D: both sides roll 1d6, no modifiers, at the start of each round. Lower score announces actions first, higher score resolves actions first. This means the winners can react to and pre-empt the losers' actions, moving to intercept them, setting spears against charges, etc. On a tie, everyone resolves simultaneously, which means that even if you kill an orc, it'll get its attacks on you.

Interesting. I did the "simultaneous on a tie" thing in a 1E game, and it felt... off. Realistic, sure, but still off. But I like the "announces first" thing. Interesting idea.


I mostly like the HackMaster-style tick count for games with guns: it makes perfect sense for Kenzer & Co.'s Aces & Eights (wild west game), and for Twilight 2013, which has the best modern small arms RPG combat system ever. It works sort of similarly but in the other direction: your base initiative depends on your load carried (not just weight; you can't be unencumbered if you've got a combat belt on and carry a rifle, etc.); then the GM starts counting down from the highest initiative. Each action takes X ticks to complete (for shooting, it depends on weapon, range, and whether it's a snap shot or aimed, etc.). If playing its simple, actions resolve when you declare them and you get to act after X ticks; if playing it complex, actions resolve after having counter down (you start a 7-tick action on initiative 28, it'll resolve on 21). I love it, because it can create accidental simultaneity and results like a guy pulling the pin out of a grenade, getting shot in the head, and dropping a live grenade... or a guy throwing a grenade, and someone scooping it up and throwing it back! After 0-count, you start over: everyone either presses or holds, and if everybody holds, there's a pause, during which different kinds of actions can be taken (field repair, setting an ambush, giving first aid, etc.).

Hmmmmmmm. It seems like the turn thing added on top of the count down is kind of weird. But you're right in that it opens up interruptions of another's actions. But overall, how heavy was the initiative system on your group?


Marvel Heroic Roleplaying has the simplest initiative system, I think.

When a person is done with their actions, they pick who gets to go next. Everyone has to go once before a person can be picked a second time, and so on. The person who goes first in an encounter is decided on democratically, and if the GM wants an NPC to go first, they have to pay with meta currency for the privilege, in proportion to how difficult various heroes on the PC side would be to ambush (they have to pay through the nose to ambush Spiderman, for instance).

But doesn't that end up making each side go one after the other? If I outnumber you, I go first, name my buddy, who does the same, and so on, and they we name one of you, and then each of your guys goes, then for the second round, you guys all go, and then we all go, and so on and so forth... Was that enjoyable?

And the metacurrency thing... can you be more specific? How is that explained in the game?


I've always liked the initiative system in the original Sovereign Stone game, wherein everybody declared their action, rolled it, and whomever got the best result went first. Players down the initiative order were free to change their action to defense if they want. It simply captures the idea that the better fighter will, on average, control the initiative in a fight, since the inferior will be too busy parrying to get in many attacks of their own.

Spells also takes forever to cast, which is awesome.

Hmmmmm, I like the idea of mixing initiative with rolls... and if you're not defending, you get hit automatically? Doesn't that just make the gap between levels even bigger?

warty goblin
2013-06-09, 08:46 PM
Hmmmmm, I like the idea of mixing initiative with rolls... and if you're not defending, you get hit automatically? Doesn't that just make the gap between levels even bigger?

You get an Innate Defense if you choose not to defend. Original Sovereign Stone assigns die sizes to attribute and skill levels, with attack and defense (or other skill rolls) being the sum of your roll. If I had strength d8 and swords d6, I'd roll 1d8 + 1d6 to attack somebody with a sword, and they'd make a similar roll to defend. If they use Innate Defense, they only get their Agility dice. Armor works as damage reduction too, so a well armored person fighting a somebody with lighter armor might well be better off not defending an attack and exchanging blows.

As I said, nice and simple.

Rhynn
2013-06-09, 08:47 PM
Hmmmmmmm. It seems like the turn thing added on top of the count down is kind of weird. But you're right in that it opens up interruptions of another's actions. But overall, how heavy was the initiative system on your group?

It's not particularly heavy. Players should have an "initiative track" on their sheet that they can mark their current action's completion on, and they just announce they get to complete and act again when the GM reaches their initiative count.

The turns (called "exchanges of fire") work very well, IMO. They simulate reality pretty dang well - a bit of furious action, and then either another bit, or a pause as everyone puts their heads down and tries to reload, help their mates, etc. During the pauses, one side may break and run, too.

It is seriously the most realistic RPG for modelling modern squad-level small arms combat, without losing playability.

Also, Aces & Eights can do interrupts just as well, really. (IIRC it's standard that your action resolves after its ticks have been counted up.) Both games can model the traditional "quick-draw shoot-off" (although A&8 puts more emphasis on it, of course), where both are trying to shoot the other guy before getting shot. A cool-headed gunfighter can squeeze off one good, deadly shot while the other sends bullets wildly whizzing past his head.

yougi
2013-06-10, 01:46 AM
To those of you who are interested, I've posted on my blog (where I design my d20 variant game, link in sig) about this very topic, and have shared it to numerous people who are not members of this forum, so the conversation might continue over there.

Shameless self-plug, but I mean, there's a point behind it...

Knaight
2013-06-11, 12:19 AM
An initiative variant being overlooked here is one where you simply do away with initiative entirely, and shift to simultaneous rounds where everyone declares their actions, and these interactions then interact. How they do this can vary in complexity, from the Fudge style where movement is loose and there are basic rules for who gets their actions, to Burning Wheel and it's complex matrix of interactions between codified script elements.

Possibly the best system I've seen of this is in ORE. In ORE, characters have a dice pool of d10s, which they search for matches in with a roll. Dice can be dropped from the pool to try for multiple actions, and all characters roll at once. Then, initiative order is decided by the size of the sets rolled - all 4 die sets (e.g. 3,3,3,3) proceed 3 die sets (e.g. 5,5,5,) which proceed 2 die sets (e.g. 4,4,), where 1 die sets don't exist. Furthermore, offensive actions against an opponent have the potential to break sets that they could use, which is why it can be helpful to have multiple sets even if you only want one action. However, this works because it merges the initiative roll with the roll itself, as ORE rolls have both the size of the set and the number being matched to work with. Without that, it would likely slow the game down significantly.

Lord Vukodlak
2013-06-11, 12:20 AM
Do you know why we roll initiative once and live with it for the whole combat? Because when you have 5 players and 5 monsters ordering initiative every round would really slow things down. Plus you have all kinds of effects that last for rounds or even just a round. When the initiative order changes that really screws with those effects.

Set up a few combats where the party is outnumbered 2 to 1 by weaker monsters and they'll all declare re-rolling initiative every round is a bad idea.

Rhynn
2013-06-11, 12:33 AM
The Riddle of Steel, incidentally, has pretty much the best rules for (especially one-on-one) medieval melee combat. The initiative system is mostly straightforward.

At the start of a Round (either at the start of combat or after a Pause), both (or all) combatants "throw" (reveal) either a red or a white die, simultaneously. Red means you are going to use an Offensive Action, white means you are going to use a Defensive Action. If one is red and one white, red gets initiative. If both are white, there's a stall and combat doesn't begin (this can go on for a while; after five stalls, you can start using the Ridicule skill against your opponent's Willpower to force them to throw red). If both are red, both fighters make a Reflex test (using their weapon's attack target number) to determine whose attack resolves first. You can't take back red, but you can switch white to red. If switching white to red, or if you lost a red-red initiative conflict, you can try to "steal initiative": you pay dice out of your combat pool (equal to your opponent's Perception) and make a Willpower roll opposed by a Wit roll to steal initiative and resolve first.

The attack that resolves first may pre-empt the second attack: pain and shock from the wound may reduce the other combatant's dice pool to 0 temporarily or indefinitely, or disarm, cripple, knock down or knock out the opponent.

Once combat is going on, the initiative stays with the attacker until the defender wins a defense roll (not ties; a tie defeats an attack but doesn't get initiative). Combat is fought in Exchanges (one attack or defense for each side), two to a round. You can choose to attack even when you don't have initiative, but it's often a bad idea; however, there are maneuvers like Beat, Stop Short, Block/Strike, and Evasive Attack for attacking and defending/negating simultaneously, and an armored fighter may just trust in the armor to deflect an attack while delivering a deadly counter-blow. Initiative switches back and forth as one side wins opposed rolls. If one side uses a Full Evasion defense, a Pause occurs, and combat effectively starts over with a red/white throw.

It's an excellent system, and it really models both general melee combat and special cases like jidaigeki iaijutsu duels very well.

It may sound a bit complicated, but it plays extremely smoothly and easily. In short:
- Throw red (attack) or white (defense).
- Red/red conflict is resolved with Reflex/Attack TN rolls.
- Stealing initiative: pay opponent's Per, roll Willpower/Opponent's Ref vs. Wits/your Ref.
- Winner of opposed rolls gets initiative next exchange.

yougi
2013-06-11, 01:58 AM
Do you know why we roll initiative once and live with it for the whole combat? Because when you have 5 players and 5 monsters ordering initiative every round would really slow things down. Plus you have all kinds of effects that last for rounds or even just a round. When the initiative order changes that really screws with those effects.

Set up a few combats where the party is outnumbered 2 to 1 by weaker monsters and they'll all declare re-rolling initiative every round is a bad idea.

Well, that is a set back. However, the number of different initiatives you roll can be reduced to make up for it: for example, instead of rolling 10 initiatives for your 10 monsters, roll 1 for the 6 Orcs, 1 for the 3 Ogres and 1 for the Shaman. If, as a DM, you throw 10 enemies each with different stats, than you have far worse to keep track of.

Honestly, I've played in a game with 5 players where we re-rolled our initiative every turn, and it was not much longer. Actually, from my experience, rolling your initiative every turn often goes hand in hand with declaring your actions ahead of time, which saves a lot of time.


An initiative variant being overlooked here is one where you simply do away with initiative entirely, and shift to simultaneous rounds where everyone declares their actions, and these interactions then interact. How they do this can vary in complexity, from the Fudge style where movement is loose and there are basic rules for who gets their actions, to Burning Wheel and it's complex matrix of interactions between codified script elements.

Possibly the best system I've seen of this is in ORE. In ORE, characters have a dice pool of d10s, which they search for matches in with a roll. Dice can be dropped from the pool to try for multiple actions, and all characters roll at once. Then, initiative order is decided by the size of the sets rolled - all 4 die sets (e.g. 3,3,3,3) proceed 3 die sets (e.g. 5,5,5,) which proceed 2 die sets (e.g. 4,4,), where 1 die sets don't exist. Furthermore, offensive actions against an opponent have the potential to break sets that they could use, which is why it can be helpful to have multiple sets even if you only want one action. However, this works because it merges the initiative roll with the roll itself, as ORE rolls have both the size of the set and the number being matched to work with. Without that, it would likely slow the game down significantly.

First, regarding the dropping of Initiative, you're totally right, it could work, but (1) it's too disorganized for me personally, and (2) it does give the DM a lot of (all of the) decision power, without much guidelines.

I don't really understand the advantage of using matching sets over rolls... Could you break it down for me?


The Riddle of Steel, incidentally, has pretty much the best rules for (especially one-on-one) medieval melee combat. The initiative system is mostly straightforward.

At the start of a Round (either at the start of combat or after a Pause), both (or all) combatants "throw" (reveal) either a red or a white die, simultaneously. Red means you are going to use an Offensive Action, white means you are going to use a Defensive Action. If one is red and one white, red gets initiative. If both are white, there's a stall and combat doesn't begin (this can go on for a while; after five stalls, you can start using the Ridicule skill against your opponent's Willpower to force them to throw red). If both are red, both fighters make a Reflex test (using their weapon's attack target number) to determine whose attack resolves first. You can't take back red, but you can switch white to red. If switching white to red, or if you lost a red-red initiative conflict, you can try to "steal initiative": you pay dice out of your combat pool (equal to your opponent's Perception) and make a Willpower roll opposed by a Wit roll to steal initiative and resolve first.

The attack that resolves first may pre-empt the second attack: pain and shock from the wound may reduce the other combatant's dice pool to 0 temporarily or indefinitely, or disarm, cripple, knock down or knock out the opponent.

Once combat is going on, the initiative stays with the attacker until the defender wins a defense roll (not ties; a tie defeats an attack but doesn't get initiative). Combat is fought in Exchanges (one attack or defense for each side), two to a round. You can choose to attack even when you don't have initiative, but it's often a bad idea; however, there are maneuvers like Beat, Stop Short, Block/Strike, and Evasive Attack for attacking and defending/negating simultaneously, and an armored fighter may just trust in the armor to deflect an attack while delivering a deadly counter-blow. Initiative switches back and forth as one side wins opposed rolls. If one side uses a Full Evasion defense, a Pause occurs, and combat effectively starts over with a red/white throw.

It's an excellent system, and it really models both general melee combat and special cases like jidaigeki iaijutsu duels very well.

It may sound a bit complicated, but it plays extremely smoothly and easily. In short:
- Throw red (attack) or white (defense).
- Red/red conflict is resolved with Reflex/Attack TN rolls.
- Stealing initiative: pay opponent's Per, roll Willpower/Opponent's Ref vs. Wits/your Ref.
- Winner of opposed rolls gets initiative next exchange.

That seems alright for duels, but how would it work with larger scale combat? How does an archer, who wants to stop an enemy charging the party's wizard, steal initiative from somebody a few dozen feet away? How is that explained in the game?

Rhynn
2013-06-11, 02:36 AM
Well, that is a set back. However, the number of different initiatives you roll can be reduced to make up for it: for example, instead of rolling 10 initiatives for your 10 monsters, roll 1 for the 6 Orcs, 1 for the 3 Ogres and 1 for the Shaman. If, as a DM, you throw 10 enemies each with different stats, than you have far worse to keep track of.

This is how ACKS does it, for instance: at the start of each round of combat, initiative is rolled for every PC and every group of identical monster or lone monster.


That seems alright for duels, but how would it work with larger scale combat? How does an archer, who wants to stop an enemy charging the party's wizard, steal initiative from somebody a few dozen feet away? How is that explained in the game?

It's very much based on being "engaged" with someone, and there's no strict synchronicity between engagements: it's even recommended that you run each melee for 2-3 rounds before switching, although I found switching between rounds to work fine (everyone gets two exchanges in turn).

Missile attacks work on a somewhat separate system; I don't really know/rememebr the details of the default system, because the system from the supplement, The Flower of Battle, is superior: each round, you throw red (firing on first exchange) or white (holding off, with an option to fire on the second exchange). There's no stealing initiative with missile attacks - it's about timing your melee attack just right, so you appear to be on the defensive but then land a counter-blow, hopefully just in time. With missiles, you'll just have to rely on your Reflex/ATN roll. (A three-way, or more, Reflex/ATN can even easily determine who goes first out of a group of characters making attacks that would "interact.")

Exchanges are, literally, one exchange of blows. Rounds are 1 or 2 seconds long. In a larger melee, you are probably switching targets now and then (using Terrain Rolls to get to outmaneuver them and choose who you go after).

Totally Guy
2013-06-11, 02:44 AM
I played a few games of the Cortex Marvel system and thought initiative was handled well.

After someone has taken their turn they name who gets to go next until everyone has gone. At the end of the round the person who went last can choose who can go first.

You can get two turns in a row if you go last and select yourself as first in the next round.

If you never choose to let your opponents go they'll end up all going last and will probably chose to all go again immediately after for the next round.



In a Wicked Age is a game that uses a sort of combat engine to cover all kinds of situations, not just combat. In it the "attack roll" and the initiative is bundled into one. At the start everyone rolls. The highest roll in the conflict goes first and that player chooses to target another guy who gets to reroll their dice, the winner (and the loser too in a specific way) then says what's happening. If you reroll you don't get to take a turn. Play then passes to the next highest starting roll.

Lord Vukodlak
2013-06-11, 04:08 AM
Well, that is a set back. However, the number of different initiatives you roll can be reduced to make up for it: for example, instead of rolling 10 initiatives for your 10 monsters, roll 1 for the 6 Orcs, 1 for the 3 Ogres and 1 for the Shaman. If, as a DM, you throw 10 enemies each with different stats, than you have far worse to keep track of. That was assuming I rolled once for each group of enemies, I've found it can really slow things down especially if someone tells a joke and we forget where we were in the initiative order.

DigoDragon
2013-06-11, 07:07 AM
I've found it can really slow things down especially if someone tells a joke and we forget where we were in the initiative order.

My players love jokes, so I always write down initiative order. As for how we operate, each PC rolls initiative once at the beginning of the encounter and I roll one initiatve per group of enemies (though what constitutes a 'group' can vary).

Knaight
2013-06-13, 02:28 AM
First, regarding the dropping of Initiative, you're totally right, it could work, but (1) it's too disorganized for me personally, and (2) it does give the DM a lot of (all of the) decision power, without much guidelines.

I don't really understand the advantage of using matching sets over rolls... Could you break it down for me?

Regarding dropping initiative: It can get very organized, and very rigid. Burning Wheel is probably the stand-out in this regard: All combatants script actions beforehand, with them distributed through a set. All actions go off at once, which means you look up the actions on a table and see what the combined result is, which generally is some set of rolls that are to be made to determine what happens next. It's rules heavy, and about as far from disorganized as possible. As for giving the GM the decision power, the rules can take care of it with basically no outside adjudication in most cases, unless people decide to start scripting some very interesting things. On the other end you have stuff like Fudge, which actually is pretty fluid and generally depends on GM interpretation to some degree.

As for sets vs. rolls - it's hard to explain concretely. However, the ORE game Nemesis is free, fairly short (close to 100 pages), and does a good job showing off a seriously cool dice system, seriously cool initiative system, and generally good game. REIGN is probably a better example of the ORE engine in context, but it isn't free and isn't short (close to 400 pages), so there's that.

yougi
2013-06-14, 01:39 AM
That was assuming I rolled once for each group of enemies, I've found it can really slow things down especially if someone tells a joke and we forget where we were in the initiative order.

I know right? Don't you just hate it when players are getting in the way of the game! :smallbiggrin:

But seriously, we tried going back to the "roll initiative once per round" thing today, for one encounter, and it was a mess because of that.


Regarding dropping initiative: It can get very organized, and very rigid. Burning Wheel is probably the stand-out in this regard: All combatants script actions beforehand, with them distributed through a set. All actions go off at once, which means you look up the actions on a table and see what the combined result is, which generally is some set of rolls that are to be made to determine what happens next. It's rules heavy, and about as far from disorganized as possible. As for giving the GM the decision power, the rules can take care of it with basically no outside adjudication in most cases, unless people decide to start scripting some very interesting things. On the other end you have stuff like Fudge, which actually is pretty fluid and generally depends on GM interpretation to some degree.

As for sets vs. rolls - it's hard to explain concretely. However, the ORE game Nemesis is free, fairly short (close to 100 pages), and does a good job showing off a seriously cool dice system, seriously cool initiative system, and generally good game. REIGN is probably a better example of the ORE engine in context, but it isn't free and isn't short (close to 400 pages), so there's that.

I'll look it up.

See, a part of my problem is finding something that is cool to play, not too heavy (or no one will want to play with me) nor too open (because that's the kind of things my OCD won't stand in my hobbies).

Kane0
2013-06-15, 04:13 PM
The group im in has a quick n easy approach to initiative. Everyone rolls init and highest goes first, then we go around the table depending on who was next highest, or just clockwise if we are feeling lazy. The dm takes his turn twice if need be, once when we go round the table and reach him and once when we reach opposite if him.

Example. We have the dm with the fighter to his left, the wizard to his right and the rogue opposite. The rogue rolls highest and fighter second, so we go round the table counterclockwise starting at the rogue. If additional enemies appear they take their turn after the wizard and before the rogue.

CarpeGuitarrem
2013-06-15, 05:57 PM
But doesn't that end up making each side go one after the other? If I outnumber you, I go first, name my buddy, who does the same, and so on, and they we name one of you, and then each of your guys goes, then for the second round, you guys all go, and then we all go, and so on and so forth... Was that enjoyable?
Well, it's actually a bit more tactical than that. See, the last person in the initiative order gets to pick the first person in the next round's initiative order.

So if all the heroes pick each other, and the villains survive that onslaught, the villains can all go twice before the heroes get a single shot (because they pick each other to go first in the next round). And that double-hammering is probably enough to put a severe hurt on them. Possibly enough to take heroes out of commission. So that's a bad idea.

So it's not quite that simple. Initiative becomes a rather interesting strategic decision.

And the metacurrency thing... can you be more specific? How is that explained in the game?

The GM has a Doom Pool--a pool of dice that represents the impending threats of the villains in the game. Characters have traits rated by dice. If a character has "enhanced senses d8" or "enhanced senses d10", the GM has to spend a Doom Pool die of that size or higher in order to ambush the character; otherwise, they go first. (This doesn't apply if there's a villain character with an equally powerful "enhanced senses" trait.)

As to my own initiative observations...

Old School Hack has a cool take: phase-based initiative. There are seven different types of actions (Defend/Protect, Shoot, Start a Spell/Block Movement, Move, Attack, Push/Throw, Spells Go Off). They execute in that order. Each player picks one to do in the round, and then it goes through each one. So if Fighty McFighter decides to protect (#1) Wizzy Spellcaster, that happens first. Then Wizzy starts a spell (#3), and Gobbo the Goblin blocks off (#3) a passage of the room they're fighting in. Bruno the Paladin tries to charge past (#4) Gobbo, to get into the room (the party had been separated), and then Gobbo's buddies both mount melee attacks (#5) on Wizzy. Wizzy survives, and the spell goes off (#7), and that's a combat round.

In Warhammer Fantasy RP 3rd Edition, they had a neat slot-based system. When you rolled initiative, you were earning your team an initiative slot. Any member of your team could slot into a given slot, which means that you could shuffle your lineup around as you needed. But you still wanted to roll well, to get your team good initiative slots.

Hollowpoint has a brilliant hybrid initiative system. You start by rolling a pool of d6s. You group dice that match, which you spend as actions to damage the opposition. Longer sets of dice go first, but they also clean your pool out, which means that having lots of shorter sets can let you really lay the hurt down on someone who's already blown through their big sets and doesn't have actions left.

Vknight
2013-06-15, 06:37 PM
ORE has a great system.

People with lower brains(or sense) or some other equivalent stat, declare first.
And after that people with better stats declare.
Then the dice are rolled.

You could combine the two.

Fighter I charge the soldier.
The Soldier with better Wisdom(what I'd use + Intelligence) will set his spear on his intiative to receive the charge.
Initiative is rolled
Fighter wins initiative
Fighters action happens first so the Soldier didn't get his Spear into position before getting charged.

Big Combat?

Fighter Declare
Soldiers #1 - 5 Declare
Cleric Declares
Demon Declares
Wizard Declares

Initiative is rolled and goes down the list.
This makes it every round but also makes mental stats more important to combat.

Also makes combat more Dynamic because the Fighter could charge at this Rogue but the Rogue could have decided to Tumble, and the Rogue goes first.
So he tumbles but the fighters momentum was already targeting that area so it becomes a cinematic combat roll