Lazy players

[Daveheart]

Hi again, since it was going OT in my other thread, I will open a new one, hoping you can help me.

In short, I have 6 lazy players who basically want to sit down and roll dice.
They often don't know what their PCs can do, they don't look for objects they could use in the manuals... They need to be feeded like fledglings.

Ok, they started from scratch while I had some experience, but it's been almost two years!!

Examples:
The cunning bard slid a grand total of 2 enemies over the whole campaign.
The dwarf paladin of Moradin behaves like psychotic madman, and when I suggested to change deity he said that wasn't cool. Not to mention that I found that he didn't take any implement based powers because he didn't know what this meant, and didn't bother to ask.
The rogue feels that she's too weak in melee (which is totally not true) but instead of looking for some armor, feat or whatever, she simply pesters me to have in each map some column, furniture, tree or whatever she can use to hide. It's typical that she gets out unhurt while the fighter is left in a bloody pulp.
I dropped a belt of shield, she disregarded and it was picked up by the wizard, that wanted to use both the belt and his own power together, and was really disappointed when I said that didn't stack.


I tried to scare them, but it seems I'm unable to. Encounters up to 3-4 levels over their level are dealt with just one player down, and often not even that.

I tried to lure them with a shop presenting a list of possible objects they never heard before. It backfired, they wanted one each time.

I tried to suggest them their own powers during fights, but I ended up railroading them into the few suggestions I gave. I still repent having told them about the Intimidate skill used to have someone give up fighting, for example.

I tried to force them, like having the paladin cursed until he atoned by hunting down a renegade. Two weeks after he used a power to switch place with the bard leaving him in the middle of 3 enemies, just because it was fun.

:smallfrown:

I'm trying to scare them with dangerous encounters once again, so please help me with this.
I think the main problem is that they have exceptionally high stats. Two years ago I let them roll instead of using the point buy system (bad error) and they rolled some demigods. Like the wizard who has one 8 and the rest over 15.
Do you think I could find an in-game reason to decrease their stats? Or is it too pushy?

I'm probably bad at encounter design, terrain, traps and so on. How many blatant advantages do you give to your minions in your fights? Like (un)holy rings that make monster tougher, or unavoidable traps?
Do you do this constantly or from time to time?

Thanks.

[NecroRebel]

Have you told them about the problems you feel you're having? As in, have you talked to them about the things you wrote here? Talking about issues you're having is typically the best way to solve those issues in a tabletop game; they're a social activity, after all.

If their stats are too high and it's becoming a problem, either demand that they remake them with stats more in-line with what's expected or just scrap the campaign and start a new one with brand-new characters, which you should make them make themselves so they have a better idea of what they can do.

[Daveheart]

Have you told them about the problems you feel you're having? As in, have you talked to them about the things you wrote here? Talking about issues you're having is typically the best way to solve those issues in a tabletop game; they're a social activity, after all.

If their stats are too high and it's becoming a problem, either demand that they remake them with stats more in-line with what's expected or just scrap the campaign and start a new one with brand-new characters, which you should make them make themselves so they have a better idea of what they can do.

Yes, I told them. Some got slightly better (the fighter, for example, she's quite good), some said yes, but didn't do anything.

I'd like not to scrap the campaign because it took almost two years (stops included) to get to level 10. If I have them start from scratch some will drop.
I also considered starting a new campaign from level 10, but I feel it will simply complicate things, handling new already developed Pcs.

I will ask to reduce the stats next time, we'll see what happens.

Sorry, gotta go...

[Madfellow]

It sounds to me like they're just not interested in the game. Do they play tabletop rpgs often? What systems have they played? You've talked about game mechanics, but what about the story? Do they seem interested in that? What style of game do you play? (Dungeon of the week, or more story-oriented?)

Here's the important part, though: do they look like they're having fun? If they're enjoying themselves while not bothering with the detailed mechanics of the game, then I figure you have no problem. You just have to know what to expect from them. On the other hand, if they look bored, then you need to sit down and talk with them about it.

[Lord Haart]

If they're enjoying themselves while not bothering with the detailed mechanics of the game, then I figure you have no problem.I'd say that being a dissatisfied DM with a satisfied party does still count as a problem, if one that has nobody to blame for and is fully solvable by DM changing his perspective.

[Daveheart]

It sounds to me like they're just not interested in the game. Do they play tabletop rpgs often?
Well, they're interested, given that any time I have to skip they send me tons of messages with sad faces.
They never played tabletop rpgs before, with the sole exception of the fighter.


...what about the story? Do they seem interested in that? What style of game do you play? (Dungeon of the week, or more story-oriented?)
In the short run yes, especially when I manage to create a good cliffhanger.
In the long run they tend to forget things, so I had to give up too complicated plots and re-oriented the story towards a "dungeon of the month".
I feel that only partially solved the problem, as they now are occasionally disoriented because they lost track of the main objective, but I have some plans for this.


Here's the important part, though: do they look like they're having fun? If they're enjoying themselves while not bothering with the detailed mechanics of the game, then I figure you have no problem. You just have to know what to expect from them. On the other hand, if they look bored, then you need to sit down and talk with them about it.
They're having fun, for the most part, but it's difficult to say that for a group of six.

The bard and the paladin are happy as long as they can fool around and be involved in funny situations. I'd say typical main actors.
They don't care about story, tactic or optimization, until this prevents them from getting a spotlight (like the unoptimized paladin not being able to hit anything for several sessions while everyone else happily ate nachos from kobold heads, Belkar style).

The ranger is a planner, but the other two often mess with his plans. Also I feel he'd like to role-play more, but he's too shy. Lastly he enjoys being a striker and being able to hit and run a lot.

The fighter likes tactical combat, but is unsupported by half of the group, so she occasionally gets flustered. Also being a fighter she doesn't have the same social or knowledge skills of the others, so she keeps being in character and often stays silent.

The wizard is very good in tactical combat (much more than me, he always messes up my plans) but very poor in skill challenges and role playing in general, he tries to let the others handle it.

The rogue hates taking risks and wants to be in control of the situation, but doesn't want to be the leader of the party, even if she acts so. Likes power, dislikes responsability.

With this melting pot there are occasions when everyone is happy and moments when one gets in the way of another, but I think it's normal.
The hard part is balancing the game so that everyone's happy.

Probably Lord Haart has it right. The one being more dissatisfied is me.
Storytelling got mostly out of the window, tactical fight is only partially possible. Roleplay still gives its satisfaction, but it's not enough for me anymore.

Hhmm, you gave me something to think about, thank you.

[Madfellow]

Alright, here's what I would do if it were me:

1) Ability Scores--Talk to the group. Tell them that they're slightly overpowered for their level and that if they agree to lower their scores the game will be more challenging and quite possibly more fun. Take a vote. If they want to keep their high scores, let them, and try throwing slightly stronger monsters at them if you think they can take it (be careful, though). If they do lower their own stats, though, you could make an interesting adventure out of it.

2) Treasure--Try making up for their disinterest in shopping by giving them more magic items as loot instead of gold. Try tailoring the loot drops to specific characters to help them with their builds.

3) The Paladin--Offer to help him optimize his build, or ask the fighter to give him a hand. Concerning his conduct and choice of deity, don't worry about it. It specifically says in the PHB that once a paladin gets their powers they can't be taken away, so if he acts like a psychopath while still worshipping Moradin that's his right. It could have social implications, like other paladins of Moradin wanting to incarcerate him, but it's his choice as a character to interpret the teachings of Moradin however he sees them, or to just disregard them altogether.

4) The Plot--It seems to me that their playstyle works best with a Villain of the Week/Monster of the Week kind of plot. You make an interesting villain or monster, have it rampage through a town or city and let the party smack it down, then move on. Maybe have a few two-parters with good cliffhangers. Basically, make the party out to be like superheroes defending the kingdom from a myriad of threats. Build up a nice Rogues Gallery for them, and maybe toward the end of the campaign have them all team up to try and take revenge on the party, or something like that. Just an idea.

5) The Fighter--You might want to talk to the party about the possibility of designating her the team leader. She could help the other players with their characters (if she's up for it; I know it's a big responsibility). Maybe encourage her to participate more in social challenges, despite low social skill scores. Epic fails are always a good source of entertainment, after all. :smallsmile: Try not to pressure her, though.

All of this is just advice. You're free to take it or leave it at your discretion. Anyway, good luck with the campaign.

[Daveheart]

Thanks a bunch, Madfellow. I appreciate very much the fact that you used your time to give me advice, so I will try out whatever I feel is possible.


1) Ability Scores...
I already tried to increase the difficulty and they hacked through my minions with ease, even when I made very difficult encounters. Hence the question "are they too buffed or am I that bad of a tactician?"
I will talk to them and go with the vote, let's see what happens.


2) Treasure
Did it, compatibly with the sources I have access to. Also I tried to give more secondary slot objects given that they are already strong and don't effectively need super weapons.
Once I gave them a magic weapon instead of some gold. It was a demon anthem weapon that both fighter and paladin could use, even if did not fit any of their buids perfectly. Being in the abyss I planned to give them an idea of something that could have come in handy. Guess what, the figther immediately retrained her expertise to use this secondary weapon as her main and kicked ass. The paladin kept using his nonmagical hammer.:smallsigh: He didn't even ask for one of the spare magical swords the rogue kept in her bag.


3) The Paladin
Optimize the build: did it myself. Most of the suggestions were refused. For example, his biggest problem is not hitting enough (compared to the fighter he now has -1 from stats, -1 from a missing level and -1 from weapon enhancement).
I suggested taking a weapon expertise (answer: I need other feats), changing weapon (dwarves don't use swords) and gave him a sidequest (happily agreed, almost over, will give him lots of xp).
Behaviour: you're right, the manual says that, but it freaks me out. Good god, worship Kord, where's the problem? :smallfurious: Anyway, I already did too much, so I'll drop it.


4) The Plot
Will try. It would work best in a different campaign, though. I was thinking to have them deal with minibosses, then a final boss and finally railroad them to another city where they will eventually be able to get home, effectively closing the curtain on my Planescape adventure idea. Once back, your advice could be applied.


5) The Fighter
Tried it, she clearly said she doesn't want to. A pity, but that's it.:smallfrown:

Well, it helped a lot to see that some of the advice was something I already thought of. It made me feel more capable. Thanks again.

[dariathalon]

Here's an odd idea. Send them into a dungeon in which the big-bad has performed some sort of mind controlling ritual that causes everyone who enters their lair to forget their at-will powers. By level 10, they should be able to get by with using only encounter powers, daily powers, and eventually basic attacks in the clean-up phase. This will both up the difficulty level for them and force them to get more familiar with their other powers. Give them their at-will powers back either after defeating the boss or maybe give them a way to do it during that fight (something like a device to disable or a ritual to undo as a skill challenge during the combat).

[Scow2]

Optimize the build: did it myself. Most of the suggestions were refused. For example, his biggest problem is not hitting enough (compared to the fighter he now has -1 from stats, -1 from a missing level and -1 from weapon enhancement).
I suggested taking a weapon expertise (answer: I need other feats), changing weapon (dwarves don't use swords) and gave him a sidequest (happily agreed, almost over, will give him lots of xp).
Behaviour: you're right, the manual says that, but it freaks me out. Good god, worship Kord, where's the problem? :smallfurious: Anyway, I already did too much, so I'll drop it.
I can sympathize with the Paladin's desires. He may be crazy, but he's still a devotee of Moradin (Or maybe Armok masquerading as Moradin - Can he tell if he's on fire?). While the Expertise feats are probably the most useful/powerful/effective/critical, they're also the most boring (Just a +1?). And, he's a true-blooded dwarf - he will NOT use a sword. He's a hammer-master. Give him a Superdwarvenly cool hammer.

[Daveheart]

I can sympathize with the Paladin's desires. He may be crazy, but he's still a devotee of Moradin (Or maybe Armok masquerading as Moradin - Can he tell if he's on fire?). While the Expertise feats are probably the most useful/powerful/effective/critical, they're also the most boring (Just a +1?). And, he's a true-blooded dwarf - he will NOT use a sword. He's a hammer-master. Give him a Superdwarvenly cool hammer.

I did it. I let him choose whatever he wanted from all the 9-10th level hammer or axe-type enchantments I had available as a reward for saving an NPC. I presented him a list with the main details and told him where to look for the whole item.

A 11th level +3 plain hammer would have been better imho, and he just had to contribute the missing residuum (the group had enough and was willing to share), but he wanted that one, so why not?

This happened a while ago, and he also got a brand new plate mail and a girdle after that.

Regarding Moradin, if he occasionally role-played a repentance I would be more than pleased with his build. He could be someone that tries, but ends screwing up because he's not right in the head. Fantastic!
But he only does that when he fears he'll suffer some disadvantage...
It's somehow unnerving, it feels very childish.:smallmad:

[ikosaeder]

Try to split the party and lure each one in an encounter where they have to use their specialties:
Traps and sneaking for the rogue,
Tracking for the ranger
Undead for the paladin
the bard gather knowledge (perhaps on some royal gathering)
The fighter gets some combat with tricky opponents using optimized builds and tactics (grapple, trip, disarm, Two weapon fighting)
Give each one about 5 minutes of spotlight, leaving him with a cliffhanger and switch to the next player. After three rounds of spotlight, resolve loose ends and bring them back together.

[Blackfang108]

It's somehow unnerving, it feels very childish.:smallmad:

Childish describes most of the Paladins I've played with. In all editions.

[Yakk]

High ability scores, where they are less than 18, are not a problem.

Really.

You can get an 18+2 in your attack stat in 4e with point buy, and for most classes that is the main one that impacts how powerful you are in combat. Other stats mainly give secondary riders and/or access to feats, and maybe a small amount of extra durability, and better skill checks.

I couldn't imagine it being more than a level's worth of power.

...

Your examples of "lazy" seem to mainly be about "not trying to optimize". The rogue maybe doesn't see her character as using a magic belt that casts a spell. She sees her character as being fragile, and possibly *wants* to see her character as being fragile.

The Paladin -- in 4e, it is acceptable for a Paladin to not be an exemplar of the virtues of his god: once imbued with the Divine spark, the Paladin is a free agent. If you feel like it, you can include some in-world consequences, but realize that if the Church of Moradin starts hunting down the Paladin, the Paladin will start fighting back, and your campaign could fall apart (if you make the players fail), or become a story of anti-heroes (if they start destroying the Church).

So they don't want to go through books of magic items to find great ones -- that's ok! Give out random ones, or enjoy the fun of finding great items for their characters on your own.

As an aside, it is only Cha based paladin that needs worry about both implement and weapon powers. Str based paladins should basically ignore implement powers...

[Daveheart]

Here's an odd idea. Send them into a dungeon in which the big-bad has performed some sort of mind controlling ritual that causes everyone who enters their lair to forget their at-will powers. By level 10, they should be able to get by with using only encounter powers, daily powers, and eventually basic attacks in the clean-up phase. This will both up the difficulty level for them and force them to get more familiar with their other powers. Give them their at-will powers back either after defeating the boss or maybe give them a way to do it during that fight (something like a device to disable or a ritual to undo as a skill challenge during the combat).

Interesting. I admit I'm not in love with the idea, but I'll keep it in mind, if I can find a reason I could try something like this. Thanks.

[Daveheart]

Try to split the party and lure each one in an encounter where they have to use their specialties:
Traps and sneaking for the rogue,
Tracking for the ranger
Undead for the paladin
the bard gather knowledge (perhaps on some royal gathering)
The fighter gets some combat with tricky opponents using optimized builds and tactics (grapple, trip, disarm, Two weapon fighting)
Give each one about 5 minutes of spotlight, leaving him with a cliffhanger and switch to the next player. After three rounds of spotlight, resolve loose ends and bring them back together.

I like the concept, but I thing I won't be able to keep 6 different scenarios going at the same time without loosing credibility. And without my brain oozing out of my ears... :smalleek:

Maybe I could divide them in two groups, or three, and add some more skill challenges tailored on one of them while other fight.
Something like this: the group is attacked by a wild beast and the ranger is supposed to understand it has puppies and calm it down. And maybe find a lost and wounded one.
Or a group of thugs whose leader is a weaponmaster and specifically taunts the warrior to challenge him to a duel while his goons attack the rest of the party.

This is something I feel I could handle, and I already have some ideas. Thanks a lot! :smallsmile:

[Daveheart]

High ability scores, where they are less than 18, are not a problem...

I was thinking about this while I was coming back from work today.

Clearly you can't really break the game engine if there's a fixed limit on your primary stat. There's a limit to how much likely it is that you can hit a standard moster of your level. But it goes a bit beyond that imho.

Example 1: the wizard has a very high wisdom and dexterity. While this does not contribute a lot to the damage he does or to the number of enemies he hits, it can give him a lot more control if he wins initiative (also thanks to high dex), goes almost in frontline and thunderwaves my soldiers 4 squares away. Which he does a lot of times.
Example 2: the ranger has around 18 str and 20 dex. This means he can switch between swords and bow without any difference in performance, so it becomes much more difficult for me to effectively inconvenience him.
If I slow or immobilize him, he simply turns my monster into porcupines. If I tackle him with melee while he's shooting, he simply takes out the swords.


Your examples of "lazy" seem...

So they don't want to go through books ...
So many of you told me almost the same things, so I guess subjectivity is becoming objectivity. I will try to change my perspective and be less domineering.



See above. I'm already convinced it's not the road to take, and wrote an email to the group mentioning this and other of your pieces of advise, so that we can take some time to discuss it.
It's been a while since the last time, originally I did it more frequently, but no one ever had anything bad to say, so I got complacent.

[QUOTE]As an aside, it is only Cha based paladin that needs worry about both implement and weapon powers. Str based paladins should basically ignore implement powers...
You said it, it's his choice. I already told him, but he wanted a cha-based power, don't even remember which right now.

I think that, in the end, it all boils down to me being nosy and complaining because I would play in a different way, and this happens because I want to play more than I want to DM now. Too bad there are not many possibilities for me at the moment.

[Musco]

I think you are right, the problem seems to be more with you than with them, but if it's not, what you COULD try to do is "fluff" monsters as optmized versions of the characters (building characters from scratch is not advisable, it would turn combat into a slaughterfest), and pummel them - badly - to maybe make them realize WHAT they should be doing, or what they COULD be doing.

Also, you need to step up your game if ability scores that are within the acceptable parameters are throwing you off.

Some examples:

Wizard: player characters don't usually rush in in a tightly packed formation, so have enemies behave the same way. All of a sudden, sure, the wizard goes first, and can take out a few minions (if he gets lucky to figure out where the best cluster with minions is, otherwise he might not even hit one), but most likely, he won't have a juicy enough target to risk being caught in melee after his turn.

Ranger: yes, you send mooks into melee and he picks up his sword, but he's still a striker, so he's not TOUGH (even if he might be harder to hit than usual - which he should NOT be, since DEX would be high on a bow-wielder anyway), and if he's shooting from afar, chances are he is isolated, so mooks have a good chance at hurting him a lot, or at least make him retreat from the spot, leaving him without his precious bow - which he probably dropped on the floor -, so even if he hacks away at the mooks, he might not be able to conceivably get back to the bow and start shooting right away.

Another example of you needing to step up, for instance, is the magic weapon thing. You said it could serve well to both characters, and one picked it, so it SHOULD be fine. But reading your thoughts on the subject, it seems you wanted the OTHER one to take it, so what you should do is tailor the items. Perhaps the sword has an engraving that is related to the Paladin. Heck, perhaps the weapon was given directly to him. When I come up with loot for my characters, I try to personalize it as much as possible if I want a specific one to have it, so even the item cards will have physical descriptions of the item. An Avenger, for instance, got his master's old sword when he (the master) was about to die. Sure, it is just a low-level sword, but it was so special to his master that he called it by name: "Silvanus' Revenge". When I made the card, it's not a "+1 X Sword", it's "Silvanus' Revenge" (the description says what the sword is, if the player want to look it up, although it doesn't matter since the abilities text is right there anyway).

[Daveheart]

I think you are right, the problem seems to be more with you than with them, but if it's not, what you COULD try to do is "fluff" monsters as optmized versions of the characters (building characters from scratch is not advisable, it would turn combat into a slaughterfest), and pummel them - badly - to maybe make them realize WHAT they should be doing, or what they COULD be doing.
Seems a lot of work as first impression. Also, it still implies I should have them behave like I want, which we just said was a problem.
Not sure. I prefer to start with something like splitting the party so that x can see what he can do when he works together with y.


Also, you need to step up your game if ability scores that are within the acceptable parameters are throwing you off.

Some examples:

Wizard: player characters don't usually rush in in a tightly packed formation, so have enemies behave the same way. All of a sudden, sure, the wizard goes first, and can take out a few minions (if he gets lucky to figure out where the best cluster with minions is, otherwise he might not even hit one), but most likely, he won't have a juicy enough target to risk being caught in melee after his turn.
I surely need to get better.
That said, the problem is not taking out some minions, it's that repositioning my soldiers, which the wizard often recognizes, tends to foil the advantages I had planned through terrain. Also, being many and not having lots of dungeon tiles, rooms are a bit too cramped than they should be, so it happens that monsters get sweeped in an angle.


Ranger: yes, you send mooks into melee and he picks up his sword, but he's still a striker, so he's not TOUGH (even if he might be harder to hit than usual - which he should NOT be, since DEX would be high on a bow-wielder anyway), and if he's shooting from afar, chances are he is isolated, so mooks have a good chance at hurting him a lot, or at least make him retreat from the spot, leaving him without his precious bow - which he probably dropped on the floor -, so even if he hacks away at the mooks, he might not be able to conceivably get back to the bow and start shooting right away.
He's greasy as a greasy sausage dipped in oil. Greasy oil. Took a lot of powers that let him move out of range. But I get your point.


Another example of you needing to step up, for instance, is the magic weapon thing. You said it could serve well to both characters, and one picked it, so it SHOULD be fine. But reading your thoughts on the subject, it seems you wanted the OTHER one to take it, so what you should do is tailor the items. Perhaps the sword has an engraving that is related to the Paladin. Heck, perhaps the weapon was given directly to him. When I come up with loot for my characters, I try to personalize it as much as possible if I want a specific one to have it, so even the item cards will have physical descriptions of the item. An Avenger, for instance, got his master's old sword when he (the master) was about to die. Sure, it is just a low-level sword, but it was so special to his master that he called it by name: "Silvanus' Revenge". When I made the card, it's not a "+1 X Sword", it's "Silvanus' Revenge" (the description says what the sword is, if the player want to look it up, although it doesn't matter since the abilities text is right there anyway).

That was intentional. I usually do as you suggest, but in that case I was aiming to two objectives:

let someone try a polearm weapon
give the pally a magic weapon while I was waiting to deliver him the hammer (it was coming in a couple of weeks).

It was meant to be either this one or one of the spares of the group, since his main weapon got disenchanted. Didn't think he would want to keep a plain hammer.

Sorry, but I'm dozing off, I start to have troubles writing logical sentences.
I'm off to bed.

[Yakk]

The wizard knocking your critters out of position: awesome. Even better if they fall into pits or burning lava!

The ranger responding to being surrounded by taking out swords and kicking ass, then dancing out of range: awesome. Even better if the foes that swarmed him become grinder-meat when the wizard, who goes next, drops a ball of fire in the middle!

The fighter who stops six foes in their tracks as they try to run past him to reach the wizard: awesome. Even better if they end up on their ass!

As the DM, you have access to infinite in-game power. Defeating the players isn't the goal, because that is a trivial goal. Now, you could make your goal to defeat the players with a certain budget, but even that isn't all that interesting (because you are setting the point budget, honestly, and finding "over powerful" monsters for their XP value isn't all that productive).

The goal, in a sense, is getting the PCs to be awesome. And not for free -- throw foes that (seem to) try to defeat the players, and have their attempts be foiled at every turn.

That rogue who is trying to hide? That is a great opportunity for awesome. You need to have more lurkers that attack along the "hidden" sides that the Rogue manages to spot due to hiding in the same spot. Even if the Rogue just retreats and warns the other players, that is some awesome. Leaders also work great this way, as do minions hovering over a lever that will cause a chandelier to drop when the PCs are at the wrong spot (initially, the minion should be described as something obviously weak, so the PC in question doesn't feel afraid of walking over and killing it -- something that the PC in question will well know is a minion, like a Kobold in a level 10 dungeon after they had killed Kobolds by the 100 from level 1 to 5). That might encourage said PC to kill the Kobold, figure out that the lever will drop the trap, and then use the trap on the other monsters.

Ie, turn "hiding where it is safe" into "awesome".

The two PCs who like humor and goofing off? How about fighting a pair of Giants who don't like each other, and are yelling at each other all the time, and even sometimes throw attacks at each other. Have efficient "skill use" that doesn't even require a standard action to inflame them into going all-out on each other...

If enemies infight, and the players get the advantage because of it, they may both find it amusing *and* might think "well, that would suck if we did it, those guys looked like complete idiots". Or maybe they'll mimic it, and start pranking each other in combat -- that would be awesome too.

[Callin]

When you have the monsters attack. Do you let them realize what the parties good Defenses are after around or two and then have em attack what should be their lower ones? Heck some higher leveled mobs are intelligent and tactical and would know not to target the Fighters AC or the Wizards Will. They would try to target the Fighters Will and the Wizards AC lol.

[Musco]

Also, being many and not having lots of dungeon tiles, rooms are a bit too cramped than they should be, so it happens that monsters get sweeped in an angle.

If you want, PM me your e-mail, and I can send you an e-mail with a .pdf file that prints out an A4 sheet of paper with squares on it. They are not exactly 2,5 cm in side, but they are within 0.05 of being perfectly accurate, so it works.

You can print how many you want, cut the borders out and have your tiles premade. Heck, you can even get a stylus or something and DRAW on them (for walls), or use a regular pen to draw furniture, etc.

This way you can have rooms as big as you want, and even draw rooms on the fly directly, by keeping some spares.

It also let's you draw out, say, an entire dungeon ahead of time, and simply go laying it out (this requires quite some space, so beware, but they think it's AWESOME to have an overview of everything if you can pull it off), premade (you can always number the sheets on their backs, to sort them numerically and see where the next ones go).

Terrain advantage is usually more about smart thinking on the fly than pre-planning, so sure, a fight might START with terrain advantage to one side, but KEEPING that advantage is where the thinking comes in, and the Wizard is just doing his regular job when he moves them around, like it was pointed out above.

I'm actually a really new DM to 4th edition, we tried a campaign that went from 1st to 4th but died due to some players being too disruptive to the party, and we statred a new one that just reached 4th again, but I learn fast, and I think faster, which is why I mentioned that you should try to step up your game. With planning (and yes, DM'ing, specially GOOD DM'ing, takes planning, you'll have to deal with it or drop the job altogether), and brushing up on your strategies, you can challenge them in no time.

I could give you some specific pointers on this, if you want it, just drop me a message with their main "large" stats and what they tend to do on fights, and tell me what you're planning for them so I can try and come up with something to help you "test" them.

PS: Yes, the splitting them up idea works wonders, but you have to be careful to either do it for short amounts of time only (otherwise the ones left out feel bored), or do it in the end of a session soe you schedule the next 2-3 sessions (depending on how many subgroups you made, 3 being the absolute highest you should go) with ONLY the ones playing at the time.

[Daveheart]

Sorry for not being around for a while, I figured I would have come back after my group and I had a chat.
First of all thanks to you for your help. I should have written before.

We decided to keep the scores and we chatted about how everyone felt, then we started playing.

If you have ranks in Scholock Mercenary's military jargon, then we just had a Charlie Foxtrot.
If you don't, I'll translate: everything went down the drain. :smalleek:

The paladin and the bard just died, in a very stupid way, and I need your views on the situation.

The facts:
Short version: the group was adventuring under the Blood River of Broken Reach, in the former temple ward. An epic level spell, empowered by a powerful artifact of Good, was keeping the water away from a small street and three temples, under a bubble of air.
The group cleaned two temples, the big one included, and discovered that the artifact was the amulet they were looking for.
After an ability challenge where they tried to pick it up and the spell started to wane, challenge that they won, they understood they had to find another power source if they were to retrieve the amulet. Otherwise the water would have submerged the temples and drowned them.
They found Vecna's eye in the temple of Vecna.
Tonight they went for the swap. Easier and simpler ability challenge, with a couple of monsters to keep the less useful ones (fighter, ranger) occupied while the arcane and rogue classes worked on the exchange.
They failed.
Ok, no prob, I had a contingency plan: the amulet telepathically spoke with the paladin and urged him to reconnect it to the pedestal, so that it could save their lives. The amulet would have lost one level of enhancement, but they could have tried again. This last sentence wasn't communicated to the group.
The paladin refused.
Ok, I created on the fly a moderate skill challenge to escape, 3 out of 6 (one was an NPC, then the paladin and the bard) didn't make it.
Ok, no panic, second contingency plan, the amulet told the paladin a magical command word to use if the situation became impossible to handle.
That would have created magical breathing devices at the cost of the amulet loosing 2 points of enhancement. Again, this wasn't explicitly declared, only hinted.
He refused. Three times in a row over ten minutes.
At this point I declared them dead and drowned. The paladin argued a bit and tried to use the amulet after this, but the other players (bard included) said it wasn't fair, since I told him three times.


The possibilities: at the moment I have this in mind:

Let them reroll a new PC and that's it.
Have the other PCs buy a ritual, go look for the corpses and then rianimate them.
Have the bodies be washed away by the Red River, because the amulet acted on his own, but destroying itself in the process. Then have the group join again in some days.


Opinions? Other ideas?

Sorry if something is not clear or if I wrote something difficult to understand, but it's almost 2 AM where I live and I have to get up at 6 AM to work tomorrow...
I'm typing this and then I'm off to bed, hoping I can find some reply tomorrow.

[Gavran]

That's unfortunate. Given that you earlier described the Paladin as a psychotic madman, and his unwillingness to bite the hook, I'd suggest you refrain from hanging the party's survival solely on his shoulders. I totally understand why you wanted to have the amulet interact with him specifically, but I think for your group it'd be better to have had the entire party hear it. After all, they are all presumably on a quest for Good and all were in danger, not just him.

As for where to go next, I would say that it depends on how things have been going in general. You mentioned that they have a hard time with long term plot points. Are they interested in and strongly pursuing the current plot? If so, I don't think it'd be too harmful to let the characters survive. If not, then give them the task to learn Raise Dead, find the bodies, and along the way you can give them more hooks to get back into business afterwards.

Given that you allowed rolls, and that your party has generally very high scores, I don't think it'd be a good idea to have them reroll. You don't want too large a disparity in their power levels. You might, however, talk to them to make sure they're happy with their characters before making your decision. If they want to reroll, are expecting to reroll, and you return them to life that might be a problem. A reroll could even be an opportunity for them to create characters that would be more invested in your overall story.

In every case, I would suggest you schedule a meeting with the deceased to decide, followed by (if reroll, or survived) a session with the deceased, and then a session with only the survivors (reuniting, resurrecting, or joining with in the case of rerolls) before returning to normal sessions with the fully party.

All of course is only my advice. Good luck. :)

[Daveheart]

I'm back.
Damn, I slept only 4 hours...


I'd suggest you refrain from hanging the party's survival solely on his shoulders.
Right on the nail, I fear. :smallfrown:

I think for your group it'd be better to have had the entire party hear it.
I also prepared it like that, but I lost some parts on the way: I prepared this session a month ago, and it was getting pretty late. Curse on me, I should have stopped the game before, when I still was in control.

Are they interested in and strongly pursuing the current plot?
Very interested in the one that just killed them, especially the paladin. A few minutes before I had them invited to Red Shroud's palace to start a new mainline quest, so they are still not hooked. :smallfrown:

then give them the task to learn Raise Dead, find the bodies, and along the way you can give them more hooks to get back into business afterwards.
They already know the ritual. By the way, the paladin died something like 1 hour before this mess because he bought a cure potion (same effect of the cure ritual) and used it right off the bat, just after I told them that it was very taxing for the body. He didn't bother to spend some of his 6 remaining surges, rolled badly and went straight to -half total hit points, collapsing in the middle of the street.
The bard had just pulled an awesome stunt by intimidating/bluffing the merchant into believing them to be close friends with Red Shroud, really a piece of work. He managed to get three potions for 100 gp each when the merchant asked for 700... I was going to shower him in XP for that.
Quite funny, after all, but the wizard had to spend 8 hours in the room rianimating him while the others went shopping. Then he stayed back to rest and this actually managed to save his life during the drowning.

You don't want too large a disparity in their power levels.
Yeah, that's a pain. I already had to power up the rogue for that reason.

In every case, I would suggest you schedule a meeting with the deceased to decide, followed by (if reroll, or survived) a session with the deceased, and then a session with only the survivors (reuniting, resurrecting, or joining with in the case of rerolls) before returning to normal sessions with the fully party.
The meeting is indeed compulsory. My brain was a bit overloaded at the moment, with 6 people talking at the same time.
The bard said he had a blast and actually thanked me for the evening (:smalleek:) then went out scolding the paladin (his brother, btw).
The paladin strongly suggested to find a way to put him back on his feet, then was silent and grumbly. I think he never thought he could die for real...
To be positive, that could even be a good thing...