DnD Fight Club questions

[atomicpenguin]

So I'm designing an adaptation of DnD 4th I'm calling DnD Fight Club. The idea is that people can walk up, quickly design a level 6 character, and engage in PVP combat in an arena setting I designed to be large and with a set of modular traps and hazards. I figured that since I am using DnD 4th for the official rules, it would go in this subforum. Anyway, I have some questions about how to make this work.

Firstly, how big should the the arena be? I'm thinking a circle 12-14 squares in diameter, but if anyone has a better idea for the dimensions I'd love to hear it.

What about leveling up? I'm considering letting people gain experience when they win matches and use that experience to gain levels, but I'm worried that this would unbalance the game, letting people who've played longer always have the edge over new players.

I also want to put in a mechanic for crowd favor. This would use some of the social skills like Diplomacy. At the very least, I would use it to determine whether the crowd lets a losing character live or lets the character be killed, forcing the player to draw up a new one. But I'm thinking it could be used in other ways, such as gaining bonuses to attacks or increasing a gold reward at the end of a match. Speaking of which...

What should the prize be for a win? If I use XP, then that could be one thing. I could also give gold which can be used to gain better weapons or armor between matches.

Any thoughts you guys have would be appreciated.

[Surrealistik]

You might take inspiration from my game featured in my signature.

There's also Fourthcore Team Deathmatch which operates on a similar premise.

As a rule, optimization gets to be far too great a factor beyond the very low levels, and quickly becomes centralizing, so I would generally preclude anything above level 2, and certainly anything above level 10. Bog down also tends to be problematic as options increase.

Further, unless you employ some kind of respawn system, winning initiative and alpha striking are far too decisive, degenerating any arena match into an unsatisfying game of rocket tag.

Anyways, crowd favour sounds like a fun concept, and I've seen a couple of 4e games that utilize a system based on that premise.

[KnightSteve]

You could always do a thing like the Halls of Blood on RPOL.net (http://rpol.net/game.cgi?gi=31617&date=1370819672). They may have more dungeon-esque arenas than you are looking for, but it may help inspire you to how you want yours to be. Optimizing would be easy to spot out, and you can try to keep people from doing so. A bunch of striker builds, frost cheese, and polearms builds stack up quick. Controllers, especially ranged ones, are hard to play in an arena atmosphere. One whack from a fighter, and you're dead.

But maybe you can limit the number of total powers they have in each group, as well as offering magic items only every so often to keep them from being too powerful.

[Daveheart]

Controllers, especially ranged ones, are hard to play in an arena atmosphere. One whack from a fighter, and you're dead.

I agree with KnightSteve.

What about allowing the use of some kind of minion for controller and leader classes? Too hard to handle?

[tcrudisi]

I agree with KnightSteve.

What about allowing the use of some kind of minion for controller and leader classes? Too hard to handle?

I disagree with KnightSteve. A properly built controller will do just as well as any defender.

Wizard casts Sleep. Fighter can no longer get close enough (due to being slowed), then falls asleep next round. Wizard coup de graces twice (with AP) next turn. Wizard wins, having never taken a single point of damage.

The Fighter will win initiative! No, they won't. The wizard will undoubtedly be a Deva, so they'll win init most of the time.

Other controllers have "I win" buttons, too.

Really, 4e pvp primarily comes down to "who wins initiative." (So Dex primary characters have a huge advantage.) Beyond that, if the person who wins init rolls poorly once or twice, then it can come down to optimization levels. But really, init > all. Not even necessarily for alpha striking, but to make sure that your opponent can't alpha strike you.

[KnightSteve]

I disagree with KnightSteve. A properly built controller will do just as well as any defender.


It happens so rarely though, that most people won't even bother, even the ones that normally play a controller. If you look at the link I posted above, we hardly have any strikers, including those hybrid with other roles. Strikers are everyone's first choice, and most have Tainted Wounds or a leader multi-class for a healing power. There does need to be some sort of middle line to keep everyone near, so each class is still something anyone would want to play and still have fun. Maybe use no feats and give them a Defense/Offense bonus at certain levels to account for those. Just little things to keep optimizers from crushing everything, and keeping those 'win button' builds from doing the same.

[atomicpenguin]

I thought of making different ladders for each type of class (striker, controller, etc.). I also somewhat like the idea of giving controllers a certain amount of XP to spend on getting creatures for them to control in battle (only for 1v1 matches).

I'm not sure how to fix the optimization problem. I considered embracing it, as the whole point was to see who could make the best character build more or less, but that would cause gameplay to get samey quickly and, unlike other games, DnD 4th doesn't so readily offer itself for patching and banning overpowered builds, I think. What ways do you think there are to fix this?

[KnightSteve]

I thought of making different ladders for each type of class (striker, controller, etc.). I also somewhat like the idea of giving controllers a certain amount of XP to spend on getting creatures for them to control in battle (only for 1v1 matches).

I'm not sure how to fix the optimization problem. I considered embracing it, as the whole point was to see who could make the best character build more or less, but that would cause gameplay to get samey quickly and, unlike other games, DnD 4th doesn't so readily offer itself for patching and banning overpowered builds, I think. What ways do you think there are to fix this?

The optimization thing is hard to kill completely. The only thing I know to do is make it clear that things like 'frost-cheesing' or the like can't be exploited. I don't see any problem with making a cold based character, but not letting them exploit it to the max. There are feats like Cunning Stalker that you can say aren't allowed due to the enemy rarely having an ally for him to be adjacent to. If you have any questions, PM me, and I get help out. The Halls game on RPOL is one that I play in, so I know what we allow and don't, and can copy our rules thread link to you to look at thoroughly.

[atomicpenguin]

I've been pondering over your suggestions and here is where I am at now:
-the base rules will be right out of the 4th ed PHB. Almost all of the usual combat stuff will be unchanged
-Players will begin at level 3 and will level up based on experience gained from matches (haven't figured out how much to give for PvP matches yet, probably use something similar to how monster encounters are supposed to go)
-There will be ladders for each type of class (striker, controller, etc.) where people on the ladder can fight in grudge matches to go up the ladder. There will also be a team ladder. I will also hold spectacle matches (matches against monsters from the Monster Manual that also feature terrain, traps, or other challenges) and tournaments (matches separate from the ladders where the winners receive a large prize, either lots of gold or a rare item.)
-Players will receive gold for winning matches (I'm also thinking half-gold for losing). This can be spent between matches to upgrade equipment. Consumables and rare items will not be available for purchase.
-I'm thinking about giving controllers and possibly leaders a certain amount of XP to spend on monsters that they can control. This would only be during 1v1 matches.
-Rather than try to fix optimization, I'm instead going to embrace it and simply ban stuff when I see it getting too powerful.

These are the things that I know for now. Feel free to comment on them, but there are a few other things I still need to figure out:
-How should crowd favor work? What I'm thinking is that you gain crowd points for having a solid win-loss record and for doing things like taunting and playing with an opponent during combat. I'm also thinking that you can trade in a certain amount of crowd points to either reroll a bum roll or gain a bonus to hit during a match. Still, I feel like this mechanic needs to be fleshed out more.
-I'm considering using a new initiative system to get past problems with initiative order. I'm thinking of adapting the system from Burning Wheel, where players right down the actions they want to take before they act, plus a few alternative options. They then reveal their actions and may choose to either stick with their chosen action or switch to one of their alternatives. Switching actions would result in a penalty to the action that you decide to take. However, I'm thinking that adding in specific conditions for switching (e.g. I run for cover behind a wall, but if an opponent moves to the wall then I attack them instead) will lessen but not eliminate this penalty.

[KnightSteve]

1.Players will begin at level 3 and will level up based on experience gained from matches (haven't figured out how much to give for PvP matches yet, probably use something similar to how monster encounters are supposed to go)
2.There will be ladders for each type of class (striker, controller, etc.) where people on the ladder can fight in grudge matches to go up the ladder. There will also be a team ladder. I will also hold spectacle matches (matches against monsters from the Monster Manual that also feature terrain, traps, or other challenges) and tournaments (matches separate from the ladders where the winners receive a large prize, either lots of gold or a rare item.)
3.Players will receive gold for winning matches (I'm also thinking half-gold for losing). This can be spent between matches to upgrade equipment. Consumables and rare items will not be available for purchase.
4.I'm thinking about giving controllers and possibly leaders a certain amount of XP to spend on monsters that they can control. This would only be during 1v1 matches.
5.How should crowd favor work? What I'm thinking is that you gain crowd points for having a solid win-loss record and for doing things like taunting and playing with an opponent during combat. I'm also thinking that you can trade in a certain amount of crowd points to either reroll a bum roll or gain a bonus to hit during a match. Still, I feel like this mechanic needs to be fleshed out more.
6. I'm considering using a new initiative system to get past problems with initiative order. I'm thinking of adapting the system from Burning Wheel, where players right down the actions they want to take before they act, plus a few alternative options. They then reveal their actions and may choose to either stick with their chosen action or switch to one of their alternatives. Switching actions would result in a penalty to the action that you decide to take. However, I'm thinking that adding in specific conditions for switching (e.g. I run for cover behind a wall, but if an opponent moves to the wall then I attack them instead) will lessen but not eliminate this penalty.

1 & 3, Those seem to work fine with our table in the halls. At level one it's 300xp for a win and 200xp for a loss. Then it's like 76gp for a win and 32 gp for a loss. Just make sure to give the loser something, since they still did fight and at least gain experience in battle. Maybe no money unless they got some crowd favor at some point in the battle, or a small amount as compensation for the fight. Or some other justification for giving out money.

2. The ladders seem like fun, since you can rank up and have a challenge of trying to be number 1. The tournaments are incentive for trying to get more people to join and win big cash fast. Now are the players limited to only do ladder matches, or could I take my Psion and fight the Rune Priest champion? It wouldn't change our spots on our Role-based ladders, but it would be a good experience.

4. This would only be needed I think if my number 2 would be allowed. Different ladder fighting. Two controllers would be fine thrashing each other without a minion if they only fight other controllers.

5. The crowd favor sounds pretty cool. I like the crowd being more likely to cheer you on if your record is nearly flawless, and vice-versa. Maybe not allowing a re-roll, but extra cash for a fight, or a free item for a win streak, i.e. 10 wins.

6. I don't know much about the system you are talking about, but some sort of change to initiative is a good thing. I like the pick at the same time, private to GM, turns. Maybe allow one standard action to be changed each fight for free, but then start penalizing them for changing actions. Unless of course, something would prevent them from using it. I have a power to leave the battlefield (feywild sojourn) and go to another plane, but you had a power that triggered/worked on me being adjacent. You could change that action to some minor/move without penalty. Also, the penalties could start out as a -1 to attack or something, and then after 2 or 3 times it's a -2, etc.

But overall, I like the feel. Once you get the game started PM me here so I can check it out. I can get a few of my friends to put some feedback for you too once you get to that point.

[atomicpenguin]

I was considering doing an open ladder, where people can fight 1 on 1 with any class. I'm thinking the ladders will be ranked by a point system (wins get you more ladder points, losses make you lose them), so the open ladder would just take the top rankers from all the other ladders and rank them up like that.

What could be a good incentive for being in the top tier of a ladder? I'm thinking something nice that doesn't affect gameplay too much. Or is the honor of being at the top of the ladder enough?

[KnightSteve]

I would say giving them something like a medal or symbol that they're character wears, but gives no benefit like an amulet. It gives them crowd favor, but nothing else. The open ladder seems pretty cool to me.