How Do I Epic? [Rogue-specific]

[TheOz]

Hey all! I've been playing D&D for quite a long time now, and know my way around the system pretty well. That said, I'm not very good at optimizing. I tend to go for fluff and fun in my games, and mess with entertaining classes rather than those that are the most strictly powerful.

Now, I'm about to be involved in an epic level game. My first epic level game, in fact, with a DM who is extremely good at optimizing. So I decided to come here and look for a little assistance.

A bit about the game: Level 28, any and all 3.5 or 3.0 material (excluding 3.0 that has been updated). Dragon Compendium is fine, but no other Dragon material. We can optimize to our hearts content. An example: Divine Metamagic is fine as-written.

Further, I have been asked to play a rogue or rogue-type character. Someone who can find/disable traps, scout, etc. I am willing to fill this role, but would like to be combat-capable.

I've decided to play a Ghoul, using the Gravetouched and Evolved templates from Libris Mortis. Using LA buyoff I could take up to +7 LA and still be at level 27 (DM has approved this), so I have additional templates and races to lay with beyond those two templates. I haven't picked a core race yet, but I'm figuring human would be best for the feats. I'm not a fan of kobolds, even though I know about the dragonwrought kobold and extremely tempting Rapidstrike feats. I suppose I could be talked into it, but if I can I'd rather play something else.

Oh, and one member of the party has a Dirgesinger cohort, so I've got a little turning resistance and a constant desecrate effect that I'll be in range of most of the time.

Right now I'm thinking of going melee rogue, spending the maximum amount of gold I can on a kickass pair of Beast Claws, taking multiattack, and maybe dipping Barbarian for Pounce while I'm at it.

Need to check for DM approval on building items using the Magic Item Compendium rules, but all items as listed are accepted.

Can anyone give me some suggestions for a build? Vague or specific, I'm not bothered either way. I'm not necessarily looking to keep up with the casters either, mind you. Hell, one of the party members is a straight-up red dragon. I'm not interested in competing. I just want to live through the encounters and eat some people while being useful by taking out minions aside from the BBGG (Big Bad Good Guy; it's an evil party).

[graymachine]

How much casting are you willing to dip into? I know you are looking to focus on rogue, but in all honesty, any Epic level character that is going to be effective needs to be a fairly competent caster as well.

Why Ghoul exactly, by the way? Is there a fluff reason, or are you looking to take something mechanical away from it? I can't look it up right now, but I the reason is mostly mechanical, I'm sure we can come up with something better, undead or not.

Do you have some rough details of the character yet? Stats, level breakdown, etc.?

[Psyren]

You need casting of some kind to be of any use in epic. Psychic Rogue, Factotum, Arcane Trickster, even Spellthief - something. Not just to avoid being overshadowed by your party, but to be able to stand up to epic monsters in general.

[Jack_Simth]

Let's see...

Hatchling Phaerimm (Lost Empires of Faerun, LA+2, bought off... and 1 RHD, but that goes away when you take class levels) Ghost (LA+5, bought off) Rogue-27. Casts as a Sorcerer-27, as spell-like abilities (so no verbal, somatic, material, focus, or XP components - yes, free wishes, including the item creation clause). Get Flyby Attack (MM I feat), regularly duplicate an extended Persistent Lifeward (Spell Compendium - immunity to positive energy effects... which includes Turning; and yes, you can do that - metamagic counts as a spell of the original level for all purposes), get some Soulfire (book of Exalted Deeds - immunity to negative energy effects, which includes rebuking) added to your Bracers of Armor (Noted as valid in... Miniatures handbook, I think?), a Ring of X-Ray vision (DMG - you're immune to the drawback...), and use flyby attack to fly in and out of the ground, blasting people with ranged touch spells (which you should usually be able to add sneak attack damage to). If someone does manage to kill you, you just come back in 2d4 days all on your own.

[Nettlekid]

Just affirming what people are saying above. I suggest taking a few roguey levels as a structural base, taking one or two levels of a prestige class which has a fast casting progression (like Sublime Chord or Ur-Priest), and then taking some kind of Rogue/Caster progression class which, even at suboptimal pacing (5/10 casting progression, for example), enables you to get 9th level spells by virtue of how many levels you have. Stay away from the Epic PrCs, because they're just not that cool or effective as more levels in a regular PrC.

For a sample build, I might suggest something like...
Rogue 5/Assassin 9/Bard 1/Sublime Chord 1/Unseen Seer 10/Swordsage 1. That's 27 levels, which you said you can still fit in with your Ghoul race. This ends up giving you 13d6 Sneak Attack, 9th level Bard/Sorc/Wiz spells thanks to Sublime Chord, and maxed Assassin spells as well, which in all, gives you quite a lot to work with. Your specialty is Divinations, which translates to Scry and Die. You'll face a lot of trouble with Mind Blank and other anti-detection spells, but you can live with that because you'll also be able to use spells like True Seeing to negate the defense many creatures would have to your Sneak Attack. Now, I chose to drop level 2 of Sublime Chord because it wastes one +caster level from Unseen Seer, and you'd only have two uses of Bardic Music/day to boost your Caster Level, but if you think it's worth it (to offset the penalty to non-Divination spells by Unseen Seer) then go ahead. I love Swordsage as a "topper" to many builds, because you'll be able to pick Level 7 and lower maneuvers from the very start. I suggest Shadow Jaunt, Shadow Step, and Shadow Blink as standard/move/swift action 50 foot COMPLETELY NONMAGICAL teleports. Keep the edge even in an AMF. But you could also (if you dropped one of those Shadow maneuvers) get Avalanche of Blades, which lets you attack until you miss, and I daresay you'd get Sneak Attack on each one. In any case, I love a little ToB cap, taking advantage of that free IL.

It's not an optimized build, but the fact that you do have 9th level spells means that you're no slouch either. I'm sure someone could think of a better build using Assassin and Sublime Chord in conjunction with the Arcane Preparation feat and Ultimate Magus to get a super high CL caster who can turn Assassin spell slots into free Twins and Empowers for Sublime Chord spells, but I'm too lazy right now to make one.

[TheOz]

I'm not thrilled about psionics, mostly because I still haven't read the appropriate book and don't really want to delve into something I'm totally unfamiliar with right now. As for the rest, using a rogue-y casting class would be perfectly fine.

I generated my stats according to the DM's rules, but I am waiting to allocate them. They are: 7, 15, 20, 20, 17, 10. Naturally the 7 will go into Con.

As for ghoul, I mostly picked it because A: I wanted to play an undead so I had a reason to have party background with the Dirgesinger and his player/main character, and B: The player in question mentioned Gravetouched ghoul and I liked the ability bonuses and free multiattack feat. I'm willing to switch that up too, though. What I've come up with so far is pretty much just the first or second thing I thought of.

Basically, whenever I've played rogues in the past I depended on creativity and a few handy escape items to survive encounters, and it has worked well from low to high levels, though the higher I went the more of a supporting character I became, which I don't mind so much, really. I'm pretty sure I'd just die trying that in the epic levels though. I've never used any class that combines casting with rogue abilities, and am perfectly willing to read up on new class suggestions.

EDIT: See, this is why I knew coming here was a fabulous idea. I'll definitely take a look at the classes/etc suggested.

[Chronos]

One point of your LA should be the Dark template. Hefty bonuses to Hide and Move Silently and Hide in Plain Sight are great for rogues, and the speed bonus and cold resistance are decent, too. Ask your DM if it still requires concealment: By the text it does, but this might well be an editing error, since every other version of Hide in Plain Sight either provides concealment, removes the need for it, or comes after some other ability that does one of those.

A one-level dip in Incarnate can be very useful for a rogue. You can get sizable skill bonuses from soulmelds, as well as an at-will ranged touch attack you can use to deliver Sneak Attack.

[Diovid]

Sneak Attacking Spellcasters (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1240)
The Breaking and Entering Thread (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19862526/The_35_Breaking_and_Entering_Thread)
A Guide to Proper Scouting (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=4jqc6h8e2p0rqmqv622ti1ad24&topic=8995)
Guide to Stealthy Characters (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10996)

[Sith_Happens]

(to offset the penalty to non-Divination spells by Unseen Seer)

Practiced Spellcaster.

[Seharvepernfan]

You're going to play slenderman. That's all I've got to say, but it seemed worth saying.

[Azoth]

Could always go Rogue1/wiz5/unseenseer10/arcane trickster5/mindbender1/xxx4.

Use Able Learner to keep up skills. Or for fun buff persisting without incantrix or DMM:

Rogue1/beguiler1/wizard4/Ultimate Magus10/Unseen Seer10/wiz+1

Use the practiced spellcaster trick to full progress Wizard Casting. Use your Beguiler slots as MM fuel and wiz recharge.

Main reason for getting wizard to 5 is spontanious divination ACF. I also reccomend either Conjurer ACF Abrupt Jaunt or going generalist with the domain variant from UA.

Something a little more mele oriented and powerful could be:

Rogue1/wiz6/swiftblade10/Abjurant Champion5/Unseen Seer5. 16BAB 19-20CL without practiced spellcaster. AFB and can't remember the levels Unseen Seer looses CL.

All of these builds have relatively low Sneak Attack outright, but all are capable of learning the Ranger spell Hunter's Sight to give you CL/3 sneak attack dice. That + gear should be more than enough precision damage.

[Gwendol]

+1 to the Dark template. You want HiPS.

Pick up three levels of rogue to get the Penetrating strike ACF (dungeonscape).
You want the Craven feat (+ CL SA damage)
Rogue 6/Wiz 1/Unseen Seer 10/Assassin 10/

Maybe go for a conjurer wizard to get abrupt jaunt (PHB II)?

[cerin616]

After reading the ranger build that was based on this, I don't like SA damage as much. I instead opt to use maiming strike and turn it into CHA damage. use hunters mercy and things like blessed / corrupt arrows to autohit, crit and confirm against good/evil creatures on a multishot. turn each 2d6 SA damage into 1 cha damage. use your regular critical stackers to get x4 or x5 which is looking at around the 30s in CHA damage. and if you find something immune to cha, there is always plain sneak attacks. and if its immune to sneak attacks, you have that casting to help.

[Chronos]

Even if the sneak attack HP damage isn't the main focus, you still probably want Craven. As long as you have any sneak attack at all, it'll add a big pile of flat damage for free (well, for the cost of a feat).

The only catch is that the feat requires that you not be immune to fear, which undead are.

[Svata]

Might I also recommend the Spellstitched Undead template? No LA, but 1000 gp+ (500xp*wisdom score), which you should easily be able to afford.

[Nettlekid]

On the note of templates and stuff, I definitely second Dark Creature, but why pay a +1 LA when you can get a 22,000 gp collar from Tome of Magic that gives it to you permanently? A great buy for any rogue-type, very cheap (for a template!) and frees up that +1 LA for something else.

Oh, something else, I've recently discovered that I love Runes. The Runecaster prestige class from Players Guide to Faerun (but it doesn't have any setting-specific stuff to it) lets you inscribe runes of spells onto objects (and later Maximize them for free). A Permanent Touch-Activated Rune requires 8 levels in the class, spell level*caster level*1000 gold and 1/25 that in XP to craft, and it whoever touches it acts as though the spell was cast on them. I am a big fan of getting some kind of Splitting bow, inscribing a Shadow Arrow Rune on one glove and an Arrowsplit Rune on the inside of your quiver. As a result, every attack shoots (at a single target, unfortunately, though a Doublestrike Arrow rune could cause the attacks to bounce to a second target) a single Touch attack arrow, which splits into two arrows (Splitting), which splits into 5 arrows each (Maximized Arrowsplit), which deal 6 points of Strength damage each. A single shot (and ten attack rolls, but all the more chance to crit) dealing up to 60 Strength damage is nothing to sneeze at.

[Chronos]

On the note of templates and stuff, I definitely second Dark Creature, but why pay a +1 LA when you can get a 22,000 gp collar from Tome of Magic that gives it to you permanently? A great buy for any rogue-type, very cheap (for a template!) and frees up that +1 LA for something else.
One of the big advantages of being a rogue is that you can still function pretty well in an antimagic field (like, say, one that you've put up yourself). That'd shut down the item, but not an actual racial ability.

[Nettlekid]

One of the big advantages of being a rogue is that you can still function pretty well in an antimagic field (like, say, one that you've put up yourself). That'd shut down the item, but not an actual racial ability.

I dunno, I've always thought of Rogues as being very dependent on magic items. Without specific weapon special abilities a Rogue often finds themselves doing negligible damage against foes with high DR, for example. Besides, an antimagic field is something that the whole party's going to hate, and as opposed to mid-level when you have to suck it up and struggle through, at Epic Level you'll have enough power to get around it. Use one of the Swordsage's nonmagical teleports, or use Invoke Magic to cast Dimension Door to get away. It's true that it might not be as absolutely convenient as the racial ability, but if you can get those Dark Creature abilities in addition to another strong +1 LA template most of the time, and struggle through with just that other strong +1 LA template in an AMF, I think that you'll benefit from it more since you won't be in an AMF for most of the campaign.

[ericp65]

Take a look at Swift Hunter for base class (or one of the base classes) as an alternative to core Rogue. You might find that it fits your character concept. Possibly Bloodclaw Master PrC as well.

[graymachine]

Planning on replying more throughly later, but I think Dry Lich (http://www.realmshelps.net/monsters/templates/drylich.shtml) might be better, if for nothing more than getting CHA bonus to your hp, and the immunity to polymorph on top of normal undead immunities. I'll have more later.

[Samalpetey]

Planning on replying more throughly later, but I think Dry Lich (http://www.realmshelps.net/monsters/templates/drylich.shtml) might be better, if for nothing more than getting CHA bonus to your hp, and the immunity to polymorph on top of normal undead immunities. I'll have more later.

Don't you have to be a walker in the waste for that?

[graymachine]

Here's a rough bit on the template, looking over some things:

Dark Evolved Spell-Stitched Corpse-Crafted Dry Lich


STR: 16 (8 +2[Dry Lich] +4[Corpse-crafted] +2[Evolved Undead)
DEX: 20 (16 +4[Corpse-crafted])
CON: - (8, converted to -)
INT: 16 (16)
WIS: 14 (10 +4 [Dry Lich])
CHA: 20 (16 +2 [Dry Lich] +2[Evolved Undead])

(32 point buy)

+8 to Natural Armor AC

HD: 27d12 (364)

Initiative: +4 (Corpse-crafted)

Speed: +20 (Corpse-crafted, Dark)

Saves: +2 (Profane, All)

Spell Resistance: 17 (Spell-stitched)

Skills: +16 Hide, +8 Intimidate, +8 Listen, +14 Move Silently, +8 Search, +8 Spot

Special Qualities: Turn Resistance +12, DR 10/Bludgeoning & magic, DR 5/Magic & sliver, Fast Healing 3 (Evolved Undead, supercedes Dry Lich), Immunities: Undead, Heat, & Polymorph, Unholy Toughness (where you are getting CHA to HP), Darkvision 60ft, Hide in Plain Sight (see Dark template), Resist cold 10, Superior Low-light Vision, Water Weakness (all water damage is treated as Holy Water)

Special Attacks: Aura of Despair (Su, All creatures in 60ft make a DC 28 Will save or be Shaken), Constitution Drain (Su, Fort save DC 28 or take 1d6 CON drain, +5 temporary hp on success), +1d6 cold damage on Natural Attacks

Spell-Like Abilities: +1 (Choose from list for Evolved Undead), +? (Use guidelines for Spell-stitched, based off of WIS; see the link below)

LA: +7

Links
Dry Lich (http://www.realmshelps.net/monsters/templates/drylich.shtml)
Evolved Undead (http://www.realmshelps.net/monsters/templates/evolvedundead.shtml)
Corpse-crafted and Spell-stitched (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=147848)
Dark (http://www.realmshelps.net/monsters/templates/dark.shtml)


Please note that:
(A) All of the above build assumes HD of 27 for the use of calculations, and assumes the point buy that I alotted. My impression was that the character was, essentially, getting 7 free levels of LA, so I took what I saw as reasonable routes.

(B) These stats are unmodified by WBL or build considerations; these are the raw bonuses applied to the build, again assuming that I was right that 7 LA are available for free.

(C) This set of templates assumes that the necromancer creating this undead is not a moron. It assumes, at the least, that they Desecrated (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/desecrate.htm) the area before they made this powerful undead, as well as had the feats (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=147848) to properly make undead. Let's assume, since this character made it to Epic Levels, that the necromancer in question actually had a postive INT and WIS score, and knew how to do it properly. If the DM has concerns about templates being applied that really have no cost (Corpse-crafted & Spell-stitched), take Undead Leadership as one of your feats so that you can build the cohort that turned you undead. Don't forget to give them crafting feats for the rest of their build so you can pay wholesale for magic items.

Honestly, I estimate this build to be tight enough for the game you've described without breaking it to impress people. Taking this template as a given, until strong objections come up, where do you want to go with it? I mean, given that you need casting, what are you looking at to work this character to your preferred level of optimization for this game?

[Icewraith]

Consider Shadowdancer 1 for (EX) Hide in Plain Sight. Once you have that and Darkstalker, laugh at those poor fools who can't hide in antimagic fields etc.

[graymachine]

I apologize for following up with another post, but I didn't think that this was connected enough in theme to warrant editing.

General Epic considerations:

-While the template I've provided has decent HP, you have to keep in mind that much of Epic combat is fighting with rockets: generally, the character that goes first wins. Everything working at this level should have nasty enough effects that, simply, initiative wins; you need to be taking Improved Initiative at the least, and looking for other ways to make sure that you are going first.

- On the heels of that, you need to maximize immunities. You have a lot of them coming from Undead (why undead is a favorite for raw Epic builds), but there are plenty of others that you need to look into. You have a good Turn Resistance, for example, but you definitely need to look into Turn Immunity, as outlined by another Playgrounder above, at the least. Most of this, you are going to be relying on equipment, for energy immunity and so on. Make sure you have all of your bases covered.

- On the heels of that, you need to understand and plan for the fact that, in an Epic game, you are going to die. You will loose initiative, or be subject to other nasty effects. If you can't cast Contingency (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/contingency.htm), you need to pay through the nose for those Contingencies, and make sure you specify them; if you make a Contingency: Resurrection, you are going to come back with your base race and none of your cool undead templates.

[graymachine]

Consider Shadowdancer 1 for (EX) Hide in Plain Sight. Once you have that and Darkstalker, laugh at those poor fools who can't hide in antimagic fields etc.

Dark Template on the undead template achieves this without taking a level, assuming I was right that 7 LA is free. Granted, it fails in Natural Daylight, but the character should be able to control that anyway.

[Icewraith]

It is my experience in epic that you want as few conditions on your effects as possible- if there's a condition, it can and will get checked for and dispelled at every opportunity. If you're having to constantly put out anti-light effects, that's also a really easy way to attract magical attention or dispels. Many of the monsters in epic are massive, so you can end up outdoors in natural light quite a lot.

However, it is the rare occasion indeed where there are absolutely no shadows whatsoever. (Unless you're in a stick figure comic)

[graymachine]

Don't you have to be a walker in the waste for that?

Opps! Sorry! I completely missed your comment! I'm further sorry as I seem to be filling the bottom of the thread with my comments, but no, you don't. Walker in the Waste is a PrC that grants you the Dry Lich template as its 10th level capstone, but that certainly doesn't require you to take it; Dry Lich, as written, is a stand-alone template, one that Walker in the Waste simply grants at 10th class level. See the entry I linked above for the LA.

[graymachine]

It is my experience in epic that you want as few conditions on your effects as possible- if there's a condition, it can and will get checked for and dispelled at every opportunity. If you're having to constantly put out anti-light effects, that's also a really easy way to attract magical attention or dispels. Many of the monsters in epic are massive, so you can end up outdoors in natural light quite a lot.

However, it is the rare occasion indeed where there are absolutely no shadows whatsoever. (Unless you're in a stick figure comic)

That is a fair and valid consideration, but I would postulate that it is a consideration for sub-Epic characters. This character, with these templates, should be easily able to engineer reasonably constant situations where daylight (natural or magical) is a non-issue; their caster levels even as a rogue-focused character should be able to negate that. I would argue that they are going to get far more use out of that level that was otherwise lost to gain HiPS.

[Samalpetey]

Opps! Sorry! I completely missed your comment! I'm further sorry as I seem to be filling the bottom of the thread with my comments, but no, you don't. Walker in the Waste is a PrC that grants you the Dry Lich template as its 10th level capstone, but that certainly doesn't require you to take it; Dry Lich, as written, is a stand-alone template, one that Walker in the Waste simply grants at 10th class level. See the entry I linked above for the LA.

Hm, then how would you become one without being a walker in the waste?

[Icewraith]

I would postulate the opposite. At epic, your foes are generally so powerful, and divination in advance is so common, that any battlefield conditions or enhancements that you rely on for your best tricks to work will be swiftly removed. (Relying on armor of Mobility for a prestige class will just get you Disjoined) Also, any persistant magical effects you rely on to negate natural daylight also need to not be completely obvious to the naked eye, so you're not wandering around in something like a ball of Deeper Darkness or similar that basically says "aim at the center of this spell effect" and can't be fooled by an apprentice spellcaster with Detect Magic.

The issues with natural daylight WILL come up, because any threat worth mentioning should have enough ranks in arcana to know they can negate your stealth mode. There are also a number of light descriptor spells which explicitly state they work as natural daylight last I checked, plus there are also planar shenanigans and Wish to create that effect in a given area.


Unless your method of negating natural daylight is proof against antimagic, disjunciton, and the epic Dispel and Destroy seeds it's a crutch waiting to be knocked out from under you. And even then you probably have to worry about Wish and Miracle.
If you're really going for stealth at epic, you have to also Nystul's Magic Aura everything so you ping neutral... don't remember if this also works on Arcane Sight.

I supposed it comes down to the type of epic game you end up in.

[graymachine]

Hm, then how would you become one without being a walker in the waste?

Fair enough; Dry Lich (http://www.realmshelps.net/monsters/templates/drylich.shtml) doesn't specify that one has to go into the Walker in the Waste PrC to qualify, so it is simply subject to the LA that it lists.

[graymachine]

I would postulate the opposite. At epic, your foes are generally so powerful, and divination in advance is so common, that any battlefield conditions or enhancements that you rely on for your best tricks to work will be swiftly removed. (Relying on armor of Mobility for a prestige class will just get you Disjoined) Also, any persistant magical effects you rely on to negate natural daylight also need to not be completely obvious to the naked eye, so you're not wandering around in something like a ball of Deeper Darkness or similar that basically says "aim at the center of this spell effect" and can't be fooled by an apprentice spellcaster with Detect Magic.

The issues with natural daylight WILL come up, because any threat worth mentioning should have enough ranks in arcana to know they can negate your stealth mode. There are also a number of light descriptor spells which explicitly state they work as natural daylight last I checked, plus there are also planar shenanigans and Wish to create that effect in a given area.


Unless your method of negating natural daylight is proof against antimagic, disjunciton, and the epic Dispel and Destroy seeds it's a crutch waiting to be knocked out from under you. And even then you probably have to worry about Wish and Miracle.
If you're really going for stealth at epic, you have to also Nystul's Magic Aura everything so you ping neutral... don't remember if this also works on Arcane Sight.

I supposed it comes down to the type of epic game you end up in.

Sure, I agree with you, at least in part; our theoretical character should have plans in place to counteract Daylight, as well as other undead-countering spells. There should be a persistant counter in play (there are too many various methods to list here), as well as a contingency in play. Otherwise, we are just getting into arguments about sloppy gaming, which doesn't seem a realm worth visiting. This is all intrisic to the full build for a character for this level, not simply the template array; the character is still saving a level dip for HiPS.

Furthermore, we shouldn't be bothered with Seeds; if this character is building defenses against Epic Magic, we will be here all day, and I would argue that we are going outside the scope of the build. All I've given so far is a template combo without the benefit of levels and equipment; your critque seems a little too much for such rough considerations.

EDIT: How are your Divinations working? See undead immunities. If those are not satisfying you, I'm certain we will address Divination immunity when we get to actual levels of the build; it's a little asinine to assume a properly built Epic character will be subject to Divination.

[Psyren]

Fair enough; Dry Lich (http://www.realmshelps.net/monsters/templates/drylich.shtml) doesn't specify that one has to go into the Walker in the Waste PrC to qualify, so it is simply subject to the LA that it lists.

Actually, it does specify that.


CREATING A DRY LICH

"Dry Lich" is an acquired template that can be added to any living creature (hereafter referred to as the base creature) provided it can create the required canopic jars and undergo the Sere Rite.


The Sere Rite

To become a dry lich, a walker in the waste who has reached 10th level in that prestige class must undergo the Sere Rite.

No WitW, no Dry Lich.

[graymachine]

Actually, it does specify that.





No WitW, no Dry Lich.

Incorrect; the Sere right is independent of the WitW PrC. Certainly, the Rite is a given for a WitW of 10th level, but nothing in the language indicates that WitW is necessitated.

EDIT: Hrmm. Looking further at the language there, I suppose one could take it as though a character has to go through the WitW PrC to qualify, but I, as a DM, wouldn't require that; the LA implies that the template offsets the investment of PrC, at least for me.

[graymachine]

Actually, it does specify that.





No WitW, no Dry Lich.

Actually, in further retrospect, you are right along RAW lines. This is very much my mistake; Dry Lich amongst my group was always treated as taking it with the 5 LA or getting it through WitW PrC, not both. That seriously degrades the use of both, to the point that I would be concerned that either are serious material; my point here would be that I very strongly suspect that RAI is more in line with my interpretation than, as you've correctly pointed out, RAW.

Still, I suspect the base undead can be substituted for plain old Lich with little change and another level opened up for LA; any suggestions?

[Chronos]

Shadowdancer's HiPS is (SU), not (EX), and the class has a pretty steep feat tax to enter it. It's worthwhile in a core-only game, where you really don't have all that many other options, but that's about it.

[TheOz]

Wow, quite a lot of replies here! I'm afraid a good portion of it kind of goes over my head mostly due to unfamiliarity, but I get the general gist of what's been said.

I guess what I'm really asking for here are build suggestions, since it's becoming rather clear to me that if I were to actually build this guy myself he'd just die pretty much instantly due to an oversight on immunities somewhere along the line.

To a reply way, way back: Yes, I'm going to play Slenderman. That is my exact intention.

Generalized responses:

I don't recognize some abbreviations, but I'm not going to nitpick about that. Is there a guide to them somewhere on the forums? I'd be happy to refer to that.

I love the idea of doing loads of ability damage, being incorporeal (although it'll limit the scenes where I get to just straight-up eat people; oh well), and sneak attacking with rays. I am also enamored of the idea of just ripping the crap out of people with claws, but am getting the impression that I should leave that for a lower-leveled game where I'm less likely to just be immediately disintegrated or similar, which is fine.

I think I'll stay away from the dry lich so I don't have to check for approval again. I'd rather just show up with the character built to the specifications he listed initially.

Ability scores I generated in front of the GM were, in ascending order: 7, 10, 15, 17, 20, 20.

Thanks for all the attention to this thread so far, everyone. The assistance is much appreciated.

[Sactheminions]

A lot of these (especially the Ultimate Magus) are really not Rogues. They're casters with a level of rogue. And what the hell are people doing with +7 LA and no suggestions of PIXIE, for heaven's sake!

Try this for more sneak attackin', Roguey goodness.

Pixie (+4 - no Irresistible Dance because while the dance is very catchy, most epic monsters can't hear it.)
Half-Vampire (+2 - nice immunities, and further ability bonuses relevant to the character.) (Saint is an option too, but not nearly as much fun.)
Dark (+1 - HiPS is huge, and layering effects that prevent people from engaging you is big in epic. Also, +10' fly speed.)

Rog4Sor6ArcTrk17

BAB is only +11, but that hits the third iterative. More important is getting the Epic AT progression so you don't miss Epic feats; the three Epic feats are going to be important.

I don't think there's a way to get full casting, full SA, AND the fourth iterative. That might be worth sacrificing the Epic bonus feat from AT.

Feats to look at that you wouldn't always:

Air Heritage (+30' fly speed).
Flyby attack.

Pixie Warlocks are fairly awesome too, but this should work.

[Chronos]

In my opinion, Brownie (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/al/20041006a) is even better than Pixie. You're a size smaller, which helps with a bunch of things, and you don't get invisibility, but you do get an extremely good version of Hide in Plain Sight, which (with a good Hide check) can be even better than invisibility (especially at epic levels when absolutely everything has True Seeing).

[graymachine]

Wow, quite a lot of replies here! I'm afraid a good portion of it kind of goes over my head mostly due to unfamiliarity, but I get the general gist of what's been said.

I guess what I'm really asking for here are build suggestions, since it's becoming rather clear to me that if I were to actually build this guy myself he'd just die pretty much instantly due to an oversight on immunities somewhere along the line.

To a reply way, way back: Yes, I'm going to play Slenderman. That is my exact intention.

Generalized responses:

I don't recognize some abbreviations, but I'm not going to nitpick about that. Is there a guide to them somewhere on the forums? I'd be happy to refer to that.

I love the idea of doing loads of ability damage, being incorporeal (although it'll limit the scenes where I get to just straight-up eat people; oh well), and sneak attacking with rays. I am also enamored of the idea of just ripping the crap out of people with claws, but am getting the impression that I should leave that for a lower-leveled game where I'm less likely to just be immediately disintegrated or similar, which is fine.

I think I'll stay away from the dry lich so I don't have to check for approval again. I'd rather just show up with the character built to the specifications he listed initially.

Ability scores I generated in front of the GM were, in ascending order: 7, 10, 15, 17, 20, 20.

Thanks for all the attention to this thread so far, everyone. The assistance is much appreciated.

Emphasis mine.

Fair enough, dry lich seems to be in question as per RAW. I don't see much trouble in porting it over to Lich; honestly, ghoul is pretty piss-poor as undead templates go. The previous template palate I provided still applies, subsistuting Lich (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Lich) for Dry Lich, but the bulk of the build remains without the fidgiting over those bonuses; all of the other templates apply, and you have another level with which to apply another template. Any suggestions? Or Reframes?

EDIT: Re: Emphasis
You rolled these numbers? Using what set of dice?

[TheOz]

Emphasis mine.

Fair enough, dry lich seems to be in question as per RAW. I don't see much trouble in porting it over to Lich; honestly, ghoul is pretty piss-poor as undead templates go. The previous template palate I provided still applies, subsistuting Lich (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Lich) for Dry Lich, but the bulk of the build remains without the fidgiting over those bonuses; all of the other templates apply, and you have another level with which to apply another template. Any suggestions? Or Reframes?

EDIT: Re: Emphasis
You rolled these numbers? Using what set of dice?

DM had me roll three sets: 2 sets of 4d6 drop the lowest, and one set of 2d20 drop the lowest. I rolled better on the 2d20 by a mile, so that's what I've got. I think the DM meant that rolling method as a joke, but he couldn't take it back once I'd made the rolls. :smallbiggrin:

I can roll with lich. Ghoul was more or less the first thing in my head; I have no issue whatsoever replacing it with something more mechanically effective.

For the last possible template, would it make more sense for me to try for another template like evolved, or to take an LA+1 race of some sort? I don't know of many races that would make much of a difference after adding the lich/undead stuff and everything that comes with them. The Dark template is tempting also.

I've long been familiar with the mechanical niftiness that is the pixie and other small/tiny fey, but I'm just not crazy about them, for many of the same reasons that I'm not thrilled with other small races. Also it might be a bit of a Napoleon complex; I get enough short jokes out of character without hearing them IC as well. I'd rather stay away from pixies and other "cute" races - though the fly speed is tough to say no to. I know, I know, being small is better, but suffer a little fluff for me. :smalltongue:

[TheOz]

Apologies if I'm breaking either a rule or a taboo by sort of bumping my own thread, but I have a little snarl in my plans for this character. Not much, but it's something.

I can have up to +5 LA, not +7.

Everything else is the same, though. I really like the ghost build with the sneak attack rays, but I'm also a fan of the unseen seer idea. I can build with classes and whatnot - at this point I just need advice on templates/races/etc. Bearing in mind that I still want to play an undead, but am not picky on what kind.

Thanks for your patience, all.