Amber Diceless Roleplaying Game

[Longes]

Anyone played it? Is it good?

[SiuiS]

Dang. I was hoping for more in this post...

Haven't played it. Or even seen it. But I hear good things. I know the only critique is that you'll never be as strong as someone older than you, though.

[Greylond]

Anyone played it? Is it good?

Depends.

1) For Fans of Amber? Yes. For people who aren't? meh, it can be but it takes a lot of work on the part of the GM to introduce a lot of the background

2) It is Storytelling at the most extreme. If your group likes pure storytelling style RPGs, then Yes. If you don't like Storytelling Game Mechanic aspects of RPGs, then not so much.

It does capture the feel and style of Amber though. So, if you like Storytelling RPGs and are Fan of Amber, then yes, it would be an excellent game for you. :)

[Looshkin]

I know the only critique is that you'll never be as strong as someone older than you, though.

Greylond's summed it up very well, and it does all but require the players to have read one or two of the books (but the first series is pretty good, so not much of a chore).

One addition re the quote above - the older (NPC) characters are likely to have a century or more of experience on new players, they're not supposed to be beatable, but they're also supposed to be so busy with their own infighting and politics that you'll never really come to their attention as anything but pawns. The setup very much encourages you to do the same within your own generation.

[Hopeless]

Played it, got frustrated because of the bidding part since at best you'll only ever be best in one attribute and unless some of the other players aren't as quick witted you can get into serious trouble such as when I conned a fellow player into attacking an empty suit of full armour so I could blindside him.

Not an event I ever expected to work especially who else was involved in that particular game!

Read a few of the books but not enough to know the full story will be interesting to see what others thought about this game.

[Reddish Mage]

Overview:
Based on a Novel about interfamily Royal conflict in a magical multiverse. In Amber, you play the children of the Lords of an expansive Multiverse with reality set at poles of Order and Chaos. You have powers and abilities befitting your godlike (but still ultimately mortal) status. The system is flexible but the typical game pits you in competition with, if not at the throats of, the other players.

Knowledge of the novels is not necessary but tends to be an enormous advantage. I've run a productive game once for an entire group that did not read the novels.

The tendency for players to make alliances and work towards divergent goals is a challenge to run, with more then normal levels of party-splitting.

Mechanics:
The diceless mechanics for resolving competitions and combat work amazingly and are flexible enough you could adapt it to a game with another setting if you mess with the powers and attributes.

The potential uses and abuses of the powers are enormous. They are tricky and involved to use and it really helps to have some familiarity with the books.

The bidding system for attribute buying assumes you are in competition against the other players. Baseline (Amber-level) stats are so powerful you will only have problems when playing against threats geared towards your demigod-like powers.

[Longes]

So, if you like Storytelling RPGs and are Fan of Amber, then yes, it would be an excellent game for you. :)

Yes and hell yes. Now I only need to find a gamemaster :smallbiggrin:

[meschlum]

Fun game, terrifyingly easy to break if you can read your GM. Of course, it's meant to be terrifyingly easy to break, but there are shortcuts.

Hint: Merlin had the right idea, but was an amateur.

Hint: Time rate manipulation is your friend. Especially in the 5-6 orders of magnitude range.

Hint: Psyche is a sniper rifle. Strength and Warfare are swords. Consider modern warfare.

Hint: a different GM may rule otherwise.

[Longes]

Heh. Magic always wins :smalltongue:

[Friv]

Generally speaking, it's much more PvP-oriented than I prefer in a game. The fact that the bidding system assumes players who will compete for resources, rather than players just quietly agreeing to each excel in one category and then reap the benefits with oodles of extra powers, can easily create pretty drastic tilts in player power-level against one another or the world.

On the other hand, it's a neat system, and it gets full marks for originality and an interesting concept. So I generally mark it down as "good, but not my cup of tea".

[Mutazoia]

Played it, got frustrated because of the bidding part since at best you'll only ever be best in one attribute and unless some of the other players aren't as quick witted you can get into serious trouble such as when I conned a fellow player into attacking an empty suit of full armour so I could blindside him.

Not an event I ever expected to work especially who else was involved in that particular game!

Read a few of the books but not enough to know the full story will be interesting to see what others thought about this game.

Your SUPPOSED to be the best in only one attribute. This mechanic mimic's the books. Each child of Amber was good at ONE thing. Benedict was the best warrior...ever...anywhere. He could fight invisible opponents and win every time. Gerard was the strongest man...ever....anywhere. Corwin had such an amazing constitution that he survived everything...even to the point of regrowing his eyes after they had been burnd out of his head. If your character was the best in all the stats you would be unstoppable and just have a super munchkin style game..with the other players doing squat but sitting around the table trying not to fall asleep from sheer boredom.

The way the mechanics are set up...if you have the highest rank in a stat, you always win in that stat....unless your opponent cheats. In the books Corwin beat Benedict by tricking him into stepping into an area of grass that attacked and grappled who ever stepped on it. Corwin encountered this before and Benedict was so intent on running Corwin through and was unaware of the grass's properties he didn't realize what was going to happen.

Besides you can always improve your stats...you can never become equal to the best in that stat but you can get just under them (not that way...get your mind out of the gutter).

In Amber if you can think it, you can most likely do it....It just might not work the way you are trying it at the time.... Maybe I should back track a bit for the benefit of those who have never read the books...

The Amber Chronicles are a series of books written by Roger Zalazney. The first series is told in the first person point of view of the character Corwin. Corwin is one of the many children of King Oberon of Amber, Amber being the "prime shadow". Shadows are alternate realities...reflections of amber..basicly alternate dimensions through which Amberites (the royal family, not the common citizens) can travel at will. It is said that anything you can imagine exists somewhere in shadow...all you have to do is walk to it. (more on this later). The books start with Corwin waking up in a hospital with amnesia and follow his adventures through shadow as he makes his way home and the intrigues and machiavellian machinations of his sibblings as they vie for control of the throne of Amber after their father's disappearance.

One Travels through shadow by "Shadow Walking". You set off in any direction, and mentally change the landscape around you a little at a time. "Around the next corner there will be a group of purple flowers." and as you turn the corner..there are the flowers. Each change is a step into a new shadow. If you desired you could find a shadow where you are worshiped as God (infact this is a common trick of the characters in the books in order to have a ready made army to fight their siblings with). Gun's don't work in most shadows, which is why every Amberite is well trained in swordsman ship. "Even if you walk to a crazy shadow where points are round and sharp edges are dull, you still have a handy piece of steel to bash some one with."

The power of shadow-walking is granted to memebers of the royal family (or their offspring) by traversing "The Pattern". The pattern is just that...a glowing magical pattern etched in the floor at the very bottom of the dungeon under Castle Amber. Traversing the pattern is not an easy task...it's the single most challenging, exhausting, dangerous thing you can do...if you stop, you die. If you step off the pattern, you die. But traversing the pattern allows you to shadow-walk. Traversing the pattern cured Corwin of his amnesia, it has burned incurable poisions out of Amberites. When you get to the end of the pattern, you have the ability to transport instantly to anywhere in shadow you can imagine (rather than spending time walking there). There are several mirror copies of the pattern in shadow...two complete copies known just outside of Amber proper. The powers and abilities (and challenges) are the same.

At the opposite end of shadow from Amber, are the Courts of Chaos. The royal family of the courts are shapeshifters (each having a demon form and a human form, but can alter those to a great extent) and traverse "The Logrus" instead of the pattern. The Logrus is an ever changing maze that you mentally project yourself through..but the effects are the same, and the end result is pretty much the same. Logrus users don't walk through shadow...they use the logrus to reach out through shadow to find what they want and then pull themselves through shadow to it (or pull things through shadow to them...Merlin, Corwin's son once pulled a sandwich and a couple of beers through shadow during a conversation with one of his fathers old friends on shadow Earth, rather than get up.)

In the game people with the baseline "Chaos" level stats are weaker than the baseline "Amberite" stats (chosing "chaos" level stats is a power buy down and gives you more points to spend on your powers and abilities). You can choose to buy down to "human" level stats and reap a huge point reward...there are several human characters in the books...one that becomes a major player for a while...but it's seldom worth it unless you really enjoy the RP end of playing the weakest link.

You can use your points to buy powers, such as pattern attunement (you have already walked the pattern and can shadow-walk) or Logrus attunement (the same result but for logrus users....its a cheaper power). You can use your points to buy up stats, or create your own artifacts. You can buy advantages, or take drawbacks to gain points (known as alternately as "good stuff" and "bad stuff") Just keep in mind that you only get so many points to start with, and the majority of those will be spend in the initial attribute auction....

The attribute auction is, obviously where you get your ranking in the four attributes: Psyche, Strength, Endurance and Warefare. They are mesured in 2 ways, first by the rank, wich is where the character fits in comapres with everybody else (1st being the best). Along with rank, each attribute has a numerical score, starting in the negative numbers (-25 for human rank) and increasing to represent improvement. The character with the highest rank in an attribute wins all contests in that attribute....unless (as stated before) some one cheats....

Ok...this got kind of longer than I intended, so if you have questions and such..ask :)

[Mutazoia]

Generally speaking, it's much more PvP-oriented than I prefer in a game. The fact that the bidding system assumes players who will compete for resources, rather than players just quietly agreeing to each excel in one category and then reap the benefits with oodles of extra powers, can easily create pretty drastic tilts in player power-level against one another or the world.

On the other hand, it's a neat system, and it gets full marks for originality and an interesting concept. So I generally mark it down as "good, but not my cup of tea".

There is a definite PvP aspect to the game. After all the characters in the original books were siblings and constantly trying to one up (or in a couple of cases even kill) one another to get ahead in the struggle for the throne of Amber. The bidding tries to mimic this aspect from the books as well as helps create a more diverse group of characters. Besides if everybody quietly agreed to each excel in one category and the reap the benefits with oodles of extra powers, you would actually have a rather sorry sack of amberites that would be weaker than your average chaos...ite (chaosian?) in pretty much every stat. Extra powers can only make up for so much.

[HerrTenko]

you can never become equal to the best in that stat but you can get just under them

I always ruled that it was possible to steal the first place in an attribute with experience points. This way it encourages Mister Corwin Jr to practice constantly so Mr Julian Jr doesn't come and steal his Warfare Thunder while he's not paying attention.

Also Psyche is indeed powerful but without the correct powers it's kinda limited. Having to establish skin-to-skin contact makes the maneuver dangerous, and eye-contact is way too easy to break. On the other hand Sorcery makes it easier. Then again Sorcery makes everything better (Spell : Conjure Neutron Star, how I love thee).

[Mutazoia]

I always ruled that it was possible to steal the first place in an attribute with experience points. This way it encourages Mister Corwin Jr to practice constantly so Mr Julian Jr doesn't come and steal his Warfare Thunder while he's not paying attention.

Also Psyche is indeed powerful but without the correct powers it's kinda limited. Having to establish skin-to-skin contact makes the maneuver dangerous, and eye-contact is way too easy to break. On the other hand Sorcery makes it easier. Then again Sorcery makes everything better (Spell : Conjure Neutron Star, how I love thee).

Personally I wouldn't allow some one to overtake 1st place....then you run the danger of some one overtaking 1st place in every attribute. That kind of flies in the face of the sauce material (the books). Besides if you could buy first place after the initial auction what's the point of bidding?

And remember...Psyche doesn't need skin-to-skin contact...it works over Trumps as well (in fact almost all of the psychic conflict in the books took place via Trump contact).

[Longes]

And remember...Psyche doesn't need skin-to-skin contact...it works over Trumps as well (in fact almost all of the psychic conflict in the books took place via Trump contact).

It's never too late to quote Conan's "Magic is only good at the axe throw distance."

[HerrTenko]

Personally I wouldn't allow some one to overtake 1st place....then you run the danger of some one overtaking 1st place in every attribute. That kind of flies in the face of the sauce material (the books). Besides if you could buy first place after the initial auction what's the point of bidding?

And remember...Psyche doesn't need skin-to-skin contact...it works over Trumps as well (in fact almost all of the psychic conflict in the books took place via Trump contact).

Regarding first place and experience, I basically think the only reason Benedict never got overtaken in Warfare is because he constantly pratices and betters himself in every way possible, as Warfare is basically the only way he interfaces with his environment - he basically spends 90% of his XP in Warfare no matter what. Had he decided to stop training once he got to 1st place, nothing woulda stopped Eric from training to death to overtake him, for exemple.

Also from a gameplay perspective, it gives an incentive to players to keep spending XP in their attributes. This way you get to make very hard choices : do I take the risk to spend all my time training in Shadow to try and overtake Corwin Junior in Warfare, or do I sit on my revenge for now and strengthen my position in Endurance? If I spend all of my experience in Warfare, and Corwin Jr ends up still being on top because of his own spendings, I cement my rivalry but have to postpone some of my other plans.

Finally, spending XP to get 1st in every attribute is a very bad idea, for the same reason trying to get 1st place in every attribute during the bidding phase : you end up spreading your ressources too thin, don't get any 1st place because a specialist will be able to spend way more than you, and you spend so much you're basically boned when it comes to Powers.

Reguarding Psyche, yeah, Trumps are the way to go. I just meant it in the way that you don't always have a trump of someone you wish to assault, and in that case things get pretty tough. Unless, once again, you prepared the appropriate spell.

[Mutazoia]

Regarding first place and experience, I basically think the only reason Benedict never got overtaken in Warfare is because he constantly pratices and betters himself in every way possible, as Warfare is basically the only way he interfaces with his environment - he basically spends 90% of his XP in Warfare no matter what. Had he decided to stop training once he got to 1st place, nothing woulda stopped Eric from training to death to overtake him, for exemple.

Also from a gameplay perspective, it gives an incentive to players to keep spending XP in their attributes. This way you get to make very hard choices : do I take the risk to spend all my time training in Shadow to try and overtake Corwin Junior in Warfare, or do I sit on my revenge for now and strengthen my position in Endurance? If I spend all of my experience in Warfare, and Corwin Jr ends up still being on top because of his own spendings, I cement my rivalry but have to postpone some of my other plans.

Finally, spending XP to get 1st in every attribute is a very bad idea, for the same reason trying to get 1st place in every attribute during the bidding phase : you end up spreading your ressources too thin, don't get any 1st place because a specialist will be able to spend way more than you, and you spend so much you're basically boned when it comes to Powers.

Reguarding Psyche, yeah, Trumps are the way to go. I just meant it in the way that you don't always have a trump of someone you wish to assault, and in that case things get pretty tough. Unless, once again, you prepared the appropriate spell.

Well let's look at it another way...

Let's say there are 4 characters in the game. At the end of the Warfare auction the final rankings are as follows:

Benedict Jr. with 50 points
Corwin Jr. with 45 points
Gerard Jr. with 25 points
Random Jr. with 15 points

In order for Random Jr. to overtake Benedict Jr. he has to spend 25 points just to tie Gerard Jr. Then an additional 45 points (for a running total of 70 points) to tie Corwin Jr. Then another 50 points (now 120 points total) to get even with Benedict Jr.

Now we see that Random Jr. came in first in the Psyche auction. Does he eschew his own #1 ranking in Psyche to spend 120 points catching up to Benedict Jr.? I suppose he could, but Benedict Jr. would most likely be improving his own attribute to keep some one from catching up...at a much lower cost level. Like 1 XP per point thus making it impossible point wise for Random Jr. to overtake Benedict Jr. with out totally screwing himself.

But then we run into another problem with letting people overtake the 1st ranked character after an auction is done. Namely the "I spent half of my starting points to get 1st rank and now anybody can come in later and steal it" factor. For one thing the rules don't really allow you to do this (but if you house rule it for your games then it's allowed in your games). It also makes the Auctions kind of useless. If I know I can get 1st rank in something I really want by bidding low and buying it later then I will, screwing over the guy that bid high to ensure 1st rank in the auction. So now we get in a situation where EVERYBODY bids low (or not at all) and it's a constant race with points constantly going into attributes rather than improving powers and/or creating artifacts.

In the books all the children of Amber had one thing they were really good at...no matter how hard anybody else tried, they couldn't surpass them in that one area. Nobody could ever match Corwin's constitution, or Gerard's strength, or Benedict's martial prowress, no matter how hard they tried. Which is part of the reason they all used guile against each other, rather than open conflict (with a few notable exceptions).

Ultimately it comes down to play style. Myself, I prefer to stick to the flavor of the books the game is based on, and not allow anyone to buy the first rank after the auction is done. This, for me, allows for better RP..."I can train all I like, but I'm not going to surpass Mr. Warfare over there...so I better find some other way to beat him." as opposed to "I'll just spend a crap load of XP and then I can beat him."

[Longes]

In the books all the children of Amber had one thing they were really good at...no matter how hard anybody else tried, they couldn't surpass them in that one area. Nobody could ever match Corwin's constitution, or Gerard's strength, or Benedict's martial prowress, no matter how hard they tried. Which is part of the reason they all used guile against each other, rather than open conflict (with a few notable exceptions).
In Tenko's defense, we actually have an example of one brother surpasing the other - Corwin and Eric. During his time in the Earth Shadow Corwin became a better duelist than Eric.
But overall, I prefer your ideas.

[HerrTenko]

I suppose it does come down to playstyle in the end. I just always loved the possibility for one of my players to challenge his Warfare master of a brother to a duel after decades of defeats and have the possibility to go "you have grown sluggish, my Brother. After all these years doing nothing maybe it isn't such a surprise... Oops, was that your liver?".:smallbiggrin:

Since we have such a nice thread, and an opportunity for discussing Amber, here's my question for the Playground :

What did you guys do with the "dead" elders? Do you even consider it possible for a Prince of Amber to die? After all, the books never deliver an actual corpse to prove it possible, which makes it one of the biggest decisions GMs get to make. Also, what is your take on Oberon?

[Longes]

What did you guys do with the "dead" elders? Do you even consider it possible for a Prince of Amber to die? After all, the books never deliver an actual corpse to prove it possible, which makes it one of the biggest decisions GMs get to make. Also, what is your take on Oberon?

Disclaimer: I've never actually played Amber, so these thougths aren't backed by any experience.
If you have a good story to tell about them, then I don't see why not to revive them. I would be very much against fan-service kameo appearances, however.
Plot about an army of Pattern-infused clones of Brand avenging their original can be sufficiently epic :smallsmile:

[SiuiS]

Personally I wouldn't allow some one to overtake 1st place....then you run the danger of some one overtaking 1st place in every attribute. That kind of flies in the face of the sauce material (the books). Besides if you could buy first place after the initial auction what's the point of bidding?

And remember...Psyche doesn't need skin-to-skin contact...it works over Trumps as well (in fact almost all of the psychic conflict in the books took place via Trump contact).

Eric was overcome by Corwin, though. Sure, it was for the novel, but it was specifically because Corwin had his hang ups removed and was able to become better as a person, all around. Meanwhile, Eric worked on minor sorcerers, running the castle and convincing his family he didn't kill Corwin so he wouldn't be ousted. I think XP expenditure is a legit measure of what you want and what you can hold.


Disclaimer: I've never actually played Amber, so these thougths aren't backed by any experience.
If you have a good story to tell about them, then I don't see why not to revive them. I would be very much against fan-service kameo appearances, however.
Plot about an army of Pattern-infused clones of Brand avenging their original can be sufficiently epic :smallsmile:

The pattern was always described as a labyrinth, but Zelazny himself sai it was based on the Kabbalic tree of life (he also said he would never draw it, so you would always have to imagine it and ruining the one tattoo I was ever 100% certain on! :smallredface:). Especially corwin's walk along the last half of his cycle, and the implications o the dancing mountains and such. Amber had a very strong Gnostic bent, and the courts of Chaos instead a very selfish, human one. Most of the tales are driven by the self interested human influence taking immediate power and becoming a threat to the long time advancement of the gnostic Amberites. I think a story that takes these into account would be better; the lost ones are truly dead, and elsewhere in the tree. Having them show up would be silly, I think.

Hmm. Interesting ideas for alignment now.

[Longes]

Eric was overcome by Corwin, though. Sure, it was for the novel, but it was specifically because Corwin had his hang ups removed and was able to become better as a person, all around. Meanwhile, Eric worked on minor sorcerers, running the castle and convincing his family he didn't kill Corwin so he wouldn't be ousted. I think XP expenditure is a legit measure of what you want and what you can hold.
On the other hand, noone in the books overcame the paragons of attributes. Corwin is the most resilient, Benedict is the most fighty and so on.
Corwin beating Eric is modeled in this system - neither of them was the first in Warfare.
Plus, you have to remember that enjoyable mechanics are no less important than the fluff, and if you can beat the first place winner, the balance becomes questionable.

On a related note: anyone wants to GM an Amber game? :smallsmile:

[Mutazoia]

Eric was overcome by Corwin, though. Sure, it was for the novel, but it was specifically because Corwin had his hang ups removed and was able to become better as a person, all around. Meanwhile, Eric worked on minor sorcerers, running the castle and convincing his family he didn't kill Corwin so he wouldn't be ousted. I think XP expenditure is a legit measure of what you want and what you can hold

Corwin didn't actually kill Eric. Eric was mortally wounded when the Courts attacked Amber during Corwin/Blaze's own attack. Corwin was called to Eric's side as he lay dying. Your arguement only show's what the rules allow...that anybody NOT in first place in an attribute can buy their way up to just under 1st...but not beyond.

As for the elder Amberites dying...We do see Oberon's body in the end, and Brand getting an arrow through the chest, dragging Deirdre over the edge of the abyss with him as he went. We know that (so far) nothing is has ever been recovered from the Abyss. Although the sample campaign in the back of the ADRP book is "Is Dierdre really dead?" So at this point you're free to make up your own decisions for your campaigns. But it's safe to assume that they CAN die, just not very easily.

Edit: There are several "missing" children of Oberon...such as Sand and Delwin. Although nobody has heard from them in centuries and they are presumed dead, in "the hall of mirrors" short story, Merlin has a brief conversation with Sand who had become disgusted with the family politics and cut all ties. He invites Merlin to visit for a chat, as long as Merlin keeps him out of the family nonsense.

[Longes]

Don't forget, that writeups of both Oberon and Brand include such things as "Maybe they aren't really dead"

[HerrTenko]

As for the elder Amberites dying...We do see Oberon's body in the end, and Brand getting an arrow through the chest, dragging Deirdre over the edge of the abyss with him as he went. We know that (so far) nothing is has ever been recovered from the Abyss. Although the sample campaign in the back of the ADRP book is "Is Dierdre really dead?" So at this point you're free to make up your own decisions for your campaigns. But it's safe to assume that they CAN die, just not very easily.

I'm pretty certain we see Oberon's coffin, but never his actual body. I don't have a perfect memory of this scene though, so I might be mistaken. Has anybody got The Courts of Chaos nearby and is willing to check?

Regarding Brand and Deirdre though, I like to consider them lost forever. Because a "Brand comes back from the Abyss" is the most cliché thing you can ever run. But not dead though. Just never able to come back... Or are they..?:smallamused:

[Mutazoia]

I'm pretty certain we see Oberon's coffin, but never his actual body. I don't have a perfect memory of this scene though, so I might be mistaken. Has anybody got The Courts of Chaos nearby and is willing to check?

"Then, as my eyes drifted back along those lines, another shape emerged from the glistening curtain. It was a cart draped all in black and drawn by a team of black horses. At each corner rose a staff which glowed with blue fire, and atop it rested what could only be a casket, draped with our Unicorn flag. The Driver was a hunchback clad in purple and orange garments, and I knew even at that distance that it was Dworkin."

...

"Dad...?" Julian said softly.
"He wanted to be taken beyond the Courts of Chaos and into the final darkness when his time came at last." Bleys said. "So Dworkin once told me. Beyond Chaos and Amber, to a place where none reigned."

[SiuiS]

Corwin didn't actually kill Eric.

"Overcome". Corwin had become more skilled at fence, and would have slain his brother if not for the fear of crossbows from his men-at-arms.

I'm done here, until someone gets something solid though. The last I need is melancholy over what stories were lost when Zelazny died...

[Mutazoia]

"Overcome". Corwin had become more skilled at fence, and would have slain his brother if not for the fear of crossbows from his men-at-arms.

I'm done here, until someone gets something solid though. The last I need is melancholy over what stories were lost when Zelazny died...

Yes but even then, as Longes pointed out...neither Corwin nor Eric were first in warfare, and so, in game mechanics, Corwin could buy his warfare up above Eric's...just never above Benedict's.

I've read all Zalazney's books and short stories on Amber...I started reading John Betancort's Amber prequils...they're ok. Definitely not Zalazney.

Both Steve Brust and Neil Gaiman expressed in interest to Zalazney about doing some Amber stories, but Zalazney said he didn't want anybody but him writing Amber stories, so they never will.

[Longes]

Heh. Zelazny hated finishing his stories so much, that he died just so he won't have to finish Amber.
I'm sad now :smallfrown:

[evildmguy]

I played in an Amber game for about eight weeks. I think it was "eh" because I didn't know the players very well.

I got very frustrated with the character creation process, i.e. the auctions. I really wanted top in Psyche as I had a vision for my character. But another guy wanted it even though he later said he didn't know why. I ended up spending over half my points on that auction and still only being second. What that meant was that I could not afford to have walked the Pattern. What THAT meant was that, for all intents and purposes, I was a shadow character, not royal, unless the GM allowed us to go to the Pattern so I could walk it.

Basically my point is this. Take walk the pattern. Have it. Otherwise, you end up completely dependent on the other players who do have it. For a while there, I seriously contemplated staying on (shadow) Earth because that was where my character's power base was. If he left earth? No contacts, no resources and maybe a sword? I ended up going but was not happy with it.

So, I won't say I didn't like it but it was frustrating. With something as important as walk the pattern, all characters should have it or you buy a "noble" package that gives it to you and then you bid on attributes.

But that's me.

[Longes]

I played in an Amber game for about eight weeks. I think it was "eh" because I didn't know the players very well.

I got very frustrated with the character creation process, i.e. the auctions. I really wanted top in Psyche as I had a vision for my character. But another guy wanted it even though he later said he didn't know why. I ended up spending over half my points on that auction and still only being second. What that meant was that I could not afford to have walked the Pattern. What THAT meant was that, for all intents and purposes, I was a shadow character, not royal, unless the GM allowed us to go to the Pattern so I could walk it.

Basically my point is this. Take walk the pattern. Have it. Otherwise, you end up completely dependent on the other players who do have it. For a while there, I seriously contemplated staying on (shadow) Earth because that was where my character's power base was. If he left earth? No contacts, no resources and maybe a sword? I ended up going but was not happy with it.

So, I won't say I didn't like it but it was frustrating. With something as important as walk the pattern, all characters should have it or you buy a "noble" package that gives it to you and then you bid on attributes.

But that's me.

Well, that's the thing about competitive randomness.
If I ever get to play, I also want to make high Psyche character, but I know that I won't go over 30 points in an auction, because I also want Logrus.

[Roland St. Jude]

I've always really liked it. I regret not making Amberzine purchases a priority back in the day.

I've played it a number of times and it was usually not as PvP as other people report/suspect. There's been more of a "good-natured sibling rivalry" or "band together to survive the elder/ancient evil/hostile universe" feel to most of my games. Except for throne wars, obviously, but those were never my preferred way to play.

It works best with players who've not only read the books but really enjoyed them. Also, it is more narrative in approach than the vast majority of games, much more, and I've found it works best with people willing to drive the action but also accept others driving the action. Also, it helps if players have a thick-skin and a willingness to allow their characters e thwarted, cheated, tricked, etc. More than all that though is trust in the DM and a DM with a good sense of what the players want in a game. The Amber universe is hard on characters, and while it can make for a good story, not everyone is comfortable being knocked down repeatedly by forces beyond their ken or control.

It's provided some of the most creative and fun roleplaying I've done. If I ever get the time to start a second PbP game here, it'll be Amber or Serenity, I think.

[evildmguy]

Well, that's the thing about competitive randomness.
If I ever get to play, I also want to make high Psyche character, but I know that I won't go over 30 points in an auction, because I also want Logrus.

In this case, it was more my inexperience but also an unwillingness of the GM to point these things out. He was willing to sit back and just let it happen. That irked me. Some explanation would have helped, especially when he knew my background and had suggested I try and get walk the pattern.

It also didn't help that I didn't know anyone else in the group well. As someone said, I don't want collaborative such that each got to pick. But having someone put limits or ideas out there would have been nice.

I guess it depends on the play style of the group.

[Mutazoia]

Well, that's the thing about competitive randomness.
If I ever get to play, I also want to make high Psyche character, but I know that I won't go over 30 points in an auction, because I also want Logrus.

Keep in mind you also need shapeshifting to use the Logrus...so budget for that as well lol

[Mutazoia]

I played in an Amber game for about eight weeks. I think it was "eh" because I didn't know the players very well.

I got very frustrated with the character creation process, i.e. the auctions. I really wanted top in Psyche as I had a vision for my character. But another guy wanted it even though he later said he didn't know why. I ended up spending over half my points on that auction and still only being second. What that meant was that I could not afford to have walked the Pattern. What THAT meant was that, for all intents and purposes, I was a shadow character, not royal, unless the GM allowed us to go to the Pattern so I could walk it.

Basically my point is this. Take walk the pattern. Have it. Otherwise, you end up completely dependent on the other players who do have it. For a while there, I seriously contemplated staying on (shadow) Earth because that was where my character's power base was. If he left earth? No contacts, no resources and maybe a sword? I ended up going but was not happy with it.

So, I won't say I didn't like it but it was frustrating. With something as important as walk the pattern, all characters should have it or you buy a "noble" package that gives it to you and then you bid on attributes.

But that's me.

You could always play a character from the Courts of Chaos and used Logrus to get around. You need shapeshifting as well so it tends to cost more than the Pattern but you can also dip into negative points and take "bad stuff" to make up for it. Sure...your character will be unlucky for a while, but you can buy off the "bad stuff" later. Usually though it's not recomended that you spend more than 50 points total in Attributes for just that reason.

And on that note, Longes is trying to get me to run an Amber game. It will be a PbP game if I do (since trying to organize a set game time with people scattered all over creation is hell). If there is enough interest besides Longes that is...

[Longes]

Keep in mind you also need shapeshifting to use the Logrus...so budget for that as well lol

Well, it's 80 points for Logrus, or 105 for Advanced Logrus. So, starting at 20/-5. Downselling 1-3 attributes gives 10-30 points, resulting in 30-50/5-25 points for betting on psyche :smallsmile:

I can provide at least one other player make that two other players. Or even three. But two of them are on rpg.net forums :smalltongue:

On a related note: Mutazoia, what is the reasonable ammount of Bad Stuff a gamemaster would allow at chargen? 5 points? 10 points? 50 points? Book is incredibly vague on this.

[Mutazoia]

Well, it's 80 points for Logrus, or 105 for Advanced Logrus. So, starting at 20/-5. Downselling 1-3 attributes gives 10-30 points, resulting in 30-50/5-25 points for betting on psyche :smallsmile:

I can provide at least one other player make that two other players. Or even three. But two of them are on rpg.net forums :smalltongue:

On a related note: Mutazoia, what is the reasonable ammount of Bad Stuff a gamemaster would allow at chargen? 5 points? 10 points? 50 points? Book is incredibly vague on this.

Well if I do this I'm going to make a new Yahoo group for the game...that will make it easier to share files (for handout's and other game related junk) as well as allowing players to receive new post updates straight to their e-mail if they so chose, rather than having to check a forum every day.

As far as how much bad stuff youc an start with...as much as you want...just keep in mind that the more you have the worse your luck is going to be...your probably gambling with your life with anything over 10. 50 points and you would pull a Mamma Cass and choke on your own vomit in your sleep.

[SiuiS]

Yes but even then, as Longes pointed out...neither Corwin nor Eric were first in warfare, and so, in game mechanics, Corwin could buy his warfare up above Eric's...just never above Benedict's.

Warfare is the skill for both leading armies and dueling?


I've read all Zalazney's books and short stories on Amber...I started reading John Betancort's Amber prequils...they're ok. Definitely not Zalazney.

Both Steve Brust and Neil Gaiman expressed in interest to Zalazney about doing some Amber stories, but Zalazney said he didn't want anybody but him writing Amber stories, so they never will.

Betancourt is a fan who missed the point. He spends so much time nailing down details that he utterly lost the fairy tale feel, the sense of scope and wonder. I also feel rather strongly that they are, basically, fan fiction rather than legitimate books because Zelazny was very clear on who all gets to chronicle Amber (hint: no one else, ever) no matter what his estate allows for after his death.



And on that note, Longes is trying to get me to run an Amber game. It will be a PbP game if I do (since trying to organize a set game time with people scattered all over creation is hell). If there is enough interest besides Longes that is...

I don't have the game :smallfrown:
Alas! I'm in too many PbP games as is. So it works out.

[Longes]

Warfare is the skill for both leading armies and dueling?

Yes, yes it is (lousy 10 character limit:smallfurious:).

[Mutazoia]

Warfare is the skill for both leading armies and dueling?

Yes...the game only has 4 attributes:

Warfare that governs all things martial. Leading armies, dueling, martial arts, archery, marksmenship...it's all covered under warfare

Strength that governs..well strength.

Endurance which governs how well you can take what Shadow has to dish out. Resisting disease and even regrowing lost body parts...

Psyche covers the mental/magical end of things. Everthing from sheer force of will, to hypnosis....psyche also drives your ability to do magic.



I don't have the game :smallfrown:
Alas! I'm in too many PbP games as is. So it works out.

Well I do have a copy of the rules that I would be providing access to, for players new to the game.

[Eulalios]

I would be interested in this as a player. I've only ever tried to DM it, back in college, and it didn't go well ... none of the players could really grasp the storytelling aspect. Engineering students, go figure.

[mabriss lethe]

Actually I believe Strength governs unarmed combat, not warfare (thus, Gerard being able to take Corwin barehanded when he would have gotten his butt handed to him in a duel.)

[Mutazoia]

Actually I believe Strength governs unarmed combat, not warfare (thus, Gerard being able to take Corwin barehanded when he would have gotten his butt handed to him in a duel.)

Yes that's correct. Once you get your hands on your opponant, the contest switches from Warfare to Strength.

[Longes]

Well, then, I eagerly await Da Begining, our glorious otterous master :smallsmile:

EDIT: Or is that supposed to be a cat?

[HerrTenko]

I'm fairly certain Albert Chamomile identifies as a stoat (or ermine).:smalltongue:

[Longes]

I'm fairly certain Albert Chamomile identifies as a stoat (or ermine).:smalltongue:

Ah, it's a "Negima!" character. Never seen that show. I prefer shows that end in 50- episodes :smalltongue:

[Longes]

Anyone still alive here?
Sir Mutazoia, shall we expect the game, or you are buzy/lazy/meh?

[evildmguy]

You could always play a character from the Courts of Chaos and used Logrus to get around. You need shapeshifting as well so it tends to cost more than the Pattern but you can also dip into negative points and take "bad stuff" to make up for it. Sure...your character will be unlucky for a while, but you can buy off the "bad stuff" later. Usually though it's not recomended that you spend more than 50 points total in Attributes for just that reason.

And on that note, Longes is trying to get me to run an Amber game. It will be a PbP game if I do (since trying to organize a set game time with people scattered all over creation is hell). If there is enough interest besides Longes that is...

Again, the game I attempted to play in was years ago. *I was expecting a GM to help the players not be adversarial. *Basically, the difference between the characters and the players and keeping knowledge between them separate. *

I never found the negative points worth it in Amber. They seemed too harsh given everything else. But it's been a while since I read them!

I might be interested in a PbP game. Depends if I can get to the boards you are using from work! I can't get to a yahoo group from work. I can get to these boards.

edg

[Longes]

I never found the negative points worth it in Amber. They seemed too harsh given everything else. But it's been a while since I read them!
Care to elaborate?


I might be interested in a PbP game. Depends if I can get to the boards you are using from work! I can't get to a yahoo group from work. I can get to these boards.
I've never used yahoo groops :smallsmile:

[Deadmeat.GW]

The following is a quote from the rulebook on Bad Stuff:

How Bad is Bad?

It's really Bad. Every time something is left up to chance, your Game Master is going to have a look at your Stuff. Any Bad Stuff, and the Game Master is going to assume that 'chance' just took a turn for the worst.

And...

Bad Stuff Warning!

First, you never run out of Bad Stuff. As long as the character 'owes' points, the Bad Stuff will keep on coming and coming. It doesn't matter that ten minutes ago your character just had three outrageously bad breaks, because Bad Stuff doesn't get used up...


So, it is bad, it will hurt and enough of it can and WILL kill your character and this is all by the basic rules for the stuff.
With hard work and a lot of roleplaying and planning you can perhaps avoid the effects but it is going to hurt you often.

On top of this...it works in ALL circumstances and that means social interactions too.

Good Stuff on the other hand does the same but in any positive way you can possibly imagine...
That attack against you with a nuke?

With enough good stuff it might simply not go off or even worse...you have seen the Hulk?

My character was second in a group in stamina, second in warfare, third in strength (15 / 5 /2 ) first in Psyche (35) with Trump artistry at the basic level (40) and Good Stuff ( 3 points to start but we got 5 bonus points which I put all in Good Stuff as my character did not know she was a Amberite Princess by birthright so I had no real Trump ability, no Pattern abilities at the beginning of the game and no idea what the whole Amber thing was about which was helped by the fact that I had not read the books in over 20 years).

Magic...none, Trump...uncontrolled..., Pattern...I could 'sense' it but I had neither control nor insight..., and my whole ace in the hole stat was just to use these abilities...
Of course having Amber Strength, Stamina and Warfare meant I was head and shoulders above any humans whether they were Olympic level athletes or dedicated specialists in their fields.

Given that Humans have like -25 strength and I ran around with a 'measly' 2...
My character could easily throw a motorbike once she started to figure out that yes, she was simply that strong.
And strength was my WEAKEST stat.

We had someone with warfare 2, stamina 2, strength 5 and Psyche 20 with a ton of Powers of all kinds plus a metric ton of Bad Stuff (15points of the stuff...)...
Evil warlock style.

The other person had warfare 25, stamina 25, strength 15 and Psyche 5 plus a smattering of powers and gear as a character that was a very, very young grand son of Benedict.
Not exposed to the pattern yet (it is DEADLY to those with not enough stamina and psyche...btw...so think carefully before you try it when you have not got it from the start...) and no really idea about Amber.

The Warlock due to his Bad Stuff ended up in the same fight as my character because of my Good Stuff as I was attacked by a monster that was trying to kill me and take my place as an unknown Amberite by using my shell to get into Amber.

I used my Psyche and Trump skill to get away from it but using skills without direction or control is a great way to tell your GM to go for it and do to you whatever he wants...
Of course with 8 points of Good Stuff at the start it just meant I survived in outrageous fashions the most lethal encounters while our kinda friendly warlock had to be careful while shaving or he could end up with a slit throat :).