Hexblade to tier 3 ?

[Grim Reader]

I'm considering some alterations to the Hexblade, aiming to make it a solid tier 3. Now the problem here is that I got a lot of ideas, and implementing them all would just be a huge mess. I'm aiming for the middle of Tier 3.

Proposed changes:

Arcane resistance replaces with Dark Blessing.

Pro: Simpler and covers a wider variety of saving thows.

Con: Doesn't allow stacking of the two by multiclassing.

Hexblades Curse replaced by the Witches Hex progression. Cha-keyed.

Pro: Stronger and gives more flexibility.

Con: The curse is kindof the Hexblades signature ability.

Bonus feats list expanded to allow all Fighter feats.

Somewhat expanded spell list.

Dark Companion feature.

Mike Mearls hexblade fix.

I've thought about bolting on some Warlock invocations, but somehow spells, invocations and full BaB in a base class seems...messy. There is some precedent for Hexes and spells going together.

What do you think? How much of this would it take to make it mid-tier 3?

[limejuicepowder]

The hexblade spells are nice, but I don't think they get enough of them to get past t4. At the lower levels especially they get like 3 spells per day, which is more of a perk than a real class feature.

It would take a lot more work, but I think spells should be gotten rid of entirely in favor a invocation system based on the curse. Make it usable at will, then have a variety of rider effects that can be added to it. Also have a list general-purpose invocations with an eye towards out of combat utility.

The other changes look good.

[Emperor Tippy]

How to make Hexblade Tier 3:

1: Make Hexblade spells Spell Like Abilities.
2: Make Hexblade's Curse per encounter instead of per day
3: Replace the Familiar ability with the feat Obtain Familiar as a bonus feat.
4: Change Aura of Unluck from per day to per encounter.
5: Give the Hexblade full armor and shield proficiency.
6: Give the Hexblade 4+Int skill points instead of 2+Int
7: Add Spot, Listen, Hide, Move Silently, and UMD to its class skills list.
8: Give it a Good fortitude save progression.

That gives you a decentish tier 3 Hexblade.

To make it a good tier three hexblade make its SLA's (spells) auto quickened (i.e. it can use them as swift actions once per round).

[Grim Reader]

The hexblade spells are nice, but I don't think they get enough of them to get past t4. At the lower levels especially they get like 3 spells per day, which is more of a perk than a real class feature.

It would take a lot more work, but I think spells should be gotten rid of entirely in favor a invocation system based on the curse. Make it usable at will, then have a variety of rider effects that can be added to it. Also have a list general-purpose invocations with an eye towards out of combat utility.

The other changes look good.

I'd have to give this something more of a think. My initial reaction is that a full-bab invocation user sound more like a separate class than the Hexblade. Good point about them having too few spells. Compare to the Duskblade...


How to make Hexblade Tier 3:

1: Make Hexblade spells Spell Like Abilities.
2: Make Hexblade's Curse per encounter instead of per day
3: Replace the Familiar ability with the feat Obtain Familiar as a bonus feat.
4: Change Aura of Unluck from per day to per encounter.
5: Give the Hexblade full armor and shield proficiency.
6: Give the Hexblade 4+Int skill points instead of 2+Int
7: Add Spot, Listen, Hide, Move Silently, and UMD to its class skills list.
8: Give it a Good fortitude save progression.

That gives you a decentish tier 3 Hexblade.

To make it a good tier three hexblade make its SLA's (spells) auto quickened (i.e. it can use them as swift actions once per round).

Not sure about the last. I've got both the Magus and the Duskblade in already. It seems like a Hexblade with autoquickened spells as SLAs would overshadow them. And it'd be a particularily bad form of overshadowing since it'd do so in their own niche. Cleric-Favored Soul relation.

Also working on moving the Duskblade sideways a little, so its not in the Magus shadow.

How about making the Hexblades curse a Hexblade-only Hex? That'd make it at-will, and open up the other Hexes for later picks. Or call it an invocation. That lets the Hexblade retain its signature ability, while opening up more options later.

[Coidzor]

Not sure about the last. I've got both the Magus and the Duskblade in already. It seems like a Hexblade with autoquickened spells as SLAs would overshadow them. And it'd be a particularily bad form of overshadowing since it'd do so in their own niche. Cleric-Favored Soul relation.

Also working on moving the Duskblade sideways a little, so its not in the Magus shadow.

One suggestion I would make for differentiating Duskblades, Hexblades, and Magi would be to tweak the spell-lists so that Duskblades' casting focuses primarily on damage spells or buff spells that directly pertain to their damage or being able to bring about said damage(say, flight so they can fight flying enemies), Hexblades' casting focuses more on debuffing/control support as a supplement to the direct combat role, and Magi's serve as more of a general gish focused on self-buffing, perhaps one that supports allies via shared buffs.

You might even consider cribbing something like the artificer infusion that allows them to temporarily imbue their weapon with a magic property for duskblades.

Heck, if you'd be willing to put the time in you could have the essential roles of damage, control, and support with an all-gish party mixing it up. Maybe have a small core of "gish" spells that they mostly share in common, and further differentiate them by, say, allowing heavier armor to hexblades and duskblades to reflect the focus of their magic away from more defensive buffs and towards offensive use of their magic. Maybe heavy+shields for duskblades, medium+shields for hexblades, and light for magi.

I'd also suggest serious consideration of bumping the half-casters like hexblades, paladins, and rangers to 0-5 casting.

[Grim Reader]

One suggestion I would make for differentiating Duskblades, Hexblades, and Magi would be to tweak the spell-lists so that Duskblades' casting focuses primarily on damage spells or buff spells that directly pertain to their damage or being able to bring about said damage(say, flight so they can fight flying enemies), Hexblades' casting focuses more on debuffing/control support as a supplement to the direct combat role, and Magi's serve as more of a general gish focused on self-buffing, perhaps one that supports allies via shared buffs.

Heck, if you'd be willing to put the time in you could have the essential roles of damage, control, and support with an all-gish party mixing it up. Maybe have a small core of "gish" spells that they mostly share in common, and further differentiate them by, say, allowing heavier armor to hexblades and duskblades to reflect the focus of their magic away from more defensive buffs and towards offensive use of their magic. Maybe heavy+shields for duskblades, medium+shields for hexblades, and light for magi.

I'd also suggest serious consideration of bumping the half-casters like hexblades, paladins, and rangers to 0-5 casting.

That is an interesting idea!

On the subject of Duskblades versus Magi, I compared them at 4 points from level 1-20. The chassis is almost identical. Duskblades have full-BaB and more total spell levels for most of their careers.

Magi have archetypes, a MUCH better form of spell aquisition, and more total spell levels at the end when they get 6th level spells. Also, they get 6th levels spells and is often a spell level ahead of Duskblades.

Not working for WoTC, I don't believe that full-BaB makes up for that.

My fix for the Duskblades, was: a) Duskblade spells count as higher levels for Dragonpacts. (Not dragons, but pacts will be an issue for Duskblades for in-world reasons). I'd want them to be able to pact in one trick equivalent to a Wizards highest level spell at their level.

and b) Duskblades get Archetypes, and each one opens up a spell list like the Assassin, Wu Jen, Druid, one Wizard school etc. Every 4 levels they get their int bonus +1 bonus spell levels known from the Duskblade or their archetype list.

They'll be tighter for spells than the Magi, but not as tight as they were. And they'll have one strong trick.

Just how much flexibility does Witches Hexes add? I'm getting the impression its not enough to move the Hexblade up to tier 3?

[Coidzor]

Just how much flexibility does Witches Hexes add? I'm getting the impression its not enough to move the Hexblade up to tier 3?

Still digesting the rest, but I have to admit that I'm not really familiar enough with hexes to say one way or another.

I wonder if there's a PF version of why each class is in its tier that might have some thought already shed on the matter.

[ddude987]

1: Make Hexblade spells Spell Like Abilities.
To make it a good tier three hexblade make its SLA's (spells) auto quickened (i.e. it can use them as swift actions once per round).

Does that mean they have unlimited uses of the per day or normal use as written or just 1 per day?

Also auto quickening seems like it would over shadow the duskblades quicken a few times a day as well as shadow his entire class.

[Person_Man]

Here's my personal Hexblade fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=218093), for what it's worth.

You should take whatever approach you're most happy with. Just remember that moving up a Tier requires more options, not just more powerful versions of existing abilities.

[Emperor Tippy]

Does that mean they have unlimited uses of the per day or normal use as written or just 1 per day?

Uses as spells per day, just cast as SLA's instead of as spells. That means no ASF at all, no need for material components, and no verbal or somatic components.


Also auto quickening seems like it would over shadow the duskblades quicken a few times a day as well as shadow his entire class.

Meh, I think the Duskblade tends to suck as written and the OP did not initially ask for an alteration that wouldn't overshadow the Duskblade.

Frankly, I would make the Duskblade so that on every successful attack with a melee weapon it can free action cast any of its spells onto the target of the hit with no attack roll needed and auto bypasses SR (but the spell only hits that target even if it would normally allow multiple targets), and give it free Still/Silent/Eschew for all its spells.

As it is, the Factotum makes a better Duskblade than the Duskblade does.

Factotum casts as SLA's so no ASF to worry about at all, Factotum 11 can bypass SR for 2 IP, and a Factotum can get another standard action for 3 IP at level 8; that is pretty much every Duskblade "unique" ability except better and done by level 11.

Factotum 11/Psion 9 with lots of Font of Inspiration makes a far better Duskblade than the Duskblade and all it gives up is full AB (for 3/4ths AB instead). Especially when you pick up spells as powers from Psychic Chiurgery from a Spell to Power Erudite.

[Zombulian]

There's always this (http://irongamersguild.wikidot.com/forum/t-248314/unofficial-fix-for-hexblades-from-an-official-source), which I use in my group.

[Grim Reader]

OK, I think I've reasoned out a package that makes sense:

-Good Fort save
-Proficiency in, and casting in medium armor and small shields.
-Arcane resistance replaced by Dark Blessing

Reasoning: This toughens the Hexblade up a bit.

-The Hexblades Curse is reflavored as a Hexblade only Hex. It becomes at-will, but retains the clause that once resisted, the target is immune for 24 hours. It stays a swift action. It is always the Hexblades first Hex.

Reasoning: The curse is the class signature ability. It should stay. Reflavoring it as a Hex keeps the class form being cluttered up with abilities, and is even fitting nomenklature.

-The Hexblade gains the Hex progression of the pathfinder Witch. The hexes are based on Cha for saves and other effects where the which bases it in Int.

Reasoning: This adds considerable versatility and shouraise it a Tier, much like limited Wildshape is enough to raise the Ranger. There are a number of good Hexes, and the Hexblade will get quite a few. Also: Now it is truly a HEXblade.

-The Hexblades list of bonus feat choices is expanded by: any Fighter (F) feat, Extra Hex, and Quicken Supernatural Ability, and Practiced Spellcaster.

Reasoning: The featlist was too tight and this adds some thematic and useful picks. Most Hexes are standards actions, more swift action options may be good.

Spells: I think I am leaving them mostly as-is. Add cantrips equal to twice the number of first level spells. No new spells added directly, but see Familiar.

Reasoning: The Hexblades Hexes gives a large number at-will supernatural abilities. Spells should be lagging both the Duskblade and Magus.

Dark Companion and Familiar: No Dark Companion, the Familiar stays.

Reasoning: The Hexblade is gaining access to a number of save-or-suck/die Hexes, and the Curse is a potent at-will swift action debuff. Adding the Dark Companion debuff is going to make it too self-contained. I'd like to encourage a bit more teamwork.

Also, it makes sense that the Hexblade draws power through its Familiar like a Witch, from the same set of patrons. This also opens up the familiar-teaching-familiar option for learning spells.

Skills: This stays the same.

Reasoning: The Hexblade now has a tough chassis, spells from a potentially large list, full BaB, a strong set of at-will supernatural abilities that include healing and Resurrection, as well as stuff like bonus feats, mettle and Cha to saves. Everything can't be shiny.

What do you think?

[Coidzor]

Sounds pretty good, though I'd still advocate the general buffs of bumping up skills for non-Wizards from 2+int to 4+int and giving the half-casters full caster level progression, and while I'd prefer some option to get dark companion action as part of an increased focus on general debuffing, it seems like it accomplishes what you've set out to do fairly well without too much crunchwork like going into the spell list would entail.

[Grim Reader]

Still digesting the rest, but I have to admit that I'm not really familiar enough with hexes to say one way or another.

I wonder if there's a PF version of why each class is in its tier that might have some thought already shed on the matter.

I did look through the PF "why each class is in its tier", but they just peg Witch as Tier 1 due to spells. The rest is just gravy and not really mentioned.
Looking at Hexes in general, they are less powerful than Invocations. Which is as it should be, otherwise the Witch would be beyond the pale.

So I looked at the Wildshaping Ranger. Wildshaping into small and medium animals a limited number of times per day moves the ranger from Tier 4 to Tier 3. I think Hexes are better.

The limited Wildshape gives more movement modes, stealth and ability bonses. But the Hexes also give movement, scouting, healing, save-or-sucks, debuffs, damage etc.


Sounds pretty good, though I'd still advocate the general buffs of bumping up skills for non-Wizards from 2+int to 4+int and giving the half-casters full caster level progression, and while I'd prefer some option to get dark companion action as part of an increased focus on general debuffing, it seems like it accomplishes what you've set out to do fairly well without too much crunchwork like going into the spell list would entail.

Since the Hexes add save-or-sucks, rolling them in with too much debuffing creates a very powerful package. Dark Companion, Curse, quickened Misfortune, save-or-die. Foe down.

As for the skills, the class got to keep some area where it is not good or great.

[Flickerdart]

Hexblades like cursing stuff, but the familiar is as much a part of the class as anything, and with full BAB and a good hit die, it can be quite the asset. Adding familiar boosting feats to the Hexblade's bonus feat list could be a nice way of expanding its versatility pretty dramatically.