What level should a ranged Eldritch Glaive equivilent be?

[Aotrs Commander]

As I was labouriously updating my compiled lists of spells and feats (mainly so that I don't have to cart paperwork everywhere as I have an 85-litre backpack of stuff to take every week!), I came across Eldritch Glaive and it got me thinking.

We have had a warlock or two, and have been a little underwhelmed. At 8th level, the player was saying he was getting a little bit bored (low choice of invocations) and the Eldritch Blast damage is a bit... meh for it's level (as we are playing in a fairly high-op environment - heck we've actually buffed the basic Cure spells!)

(In fact, if I'm brutally honest, as primarily a ranged attack character, the Warlock is easily out-paced by something like the double-dagger-throwing fighters or archers we often have.)

So, what level would you reckon that granting a ranged version of Glaive should be pegged at? (I.e. one that you could make a full attack with and potentially apply feats to.) Eldritch Flurry or something (I'm thinking of those sort of rapid fire Ki blasts they use in DBZ...!) That'd be about all it'd do, but it would at least push the Warlock up a bit.

I'd say probably Lesser, though you could make an argument for Least (though it might not do you much good until later on unless it did something else as well.)

Thoughts?



Alteurnatively, if anyone knows of any popular Warlock upgrades (like Seerow's Rebalanced Paladin or Tempest Stormwind's Sublime Marshal) I'd appreciate a link.



(Also of note, "use UMD" is not always a solution, as one of the major campaign worlds had emphatically rae magic items (all characters - and monsters - gain a level baed progression for things like AC and weapon/natural weapons and fixed stat boosts.)

[Bakkan]

If it were me, I would make it an inherent part of the Eldritch Blast itself and not require any additional investment. As you say, it's not very iimpressive damage by itself and even with Hellfire Warlock stuff, the medium BAB means he's never getting more than 3 attacks in a full-round action.

[DoctorGlock]

What you're describing is really what the default eldritch blast should be. Remember, this is the warlock's main gimick... and it's terrible. I wouldn't make it take an invocation slot, i'd just amend the text to have it take an attack action and allow for full round iterative attacks.

That said, have you introduced the player to hellfire warlock/legacy champion and a level in binder?

Edit: Wow, ninja'd on every point

[Aotrs Commander]

I know of the former (but from memory, it was a bit restrictive), don't know of the middle one and we don't use Tome of Magic.

(There is, however, a Feat called Augment Blast made for my own campaign world that increases the damage caused by any supernatural ranged touch attack (i.e. Eldritch Blast or the laser-breath weapons of my Gagana or the Lightning attacks of my imported-from-Dungeon Keeper 1-Dark Mistresses) by D6 very time you take the feat.)

So the concensus would be just to make Eldritch Blast iterative anyway, then?



Would you then, assume that the effects of MetaSLA feats (say, Maximise Spell-Like Ability) should apply to just the first or all the attacks?

(How it would interact with Eldritch Glaive would be a good start.)

[Fouredged Sword]

At best, I would allow for the vanilla blast to be an attack action, so long as you didn't use a blast shape invocation. At worst, a shape invocation one level higher than glaive.

You don't want a ton of chain blasts going around though, or a ton of cones. Seriously, divine power is a thing and warlocks can make a wand of it easily. BAB = HD, str+6 is at their fingertips.

[Aotrs Commander]

At best, I would allow for the vanilla blast to be an attack action, so long as you didn't use a blast shape invocation. At worst, a shape invocation one level higher than glaive.

You don't want a ton of chain blasts going around though, or a ton of cones.

I wasn't considering making it compatible with Blast Shape invocations (except maybe Eldritch Spear) if added as a standard ability to Eldritch Blast in the first place.




Seriously, divine power is a thing and warlocks can make a wand of it easily. BAB = HD, str+6 is at their fingertips.

Given that item crafting is A Thing Which Pretty Much Does Not Happen in most of my campaigns, I don't see that specifically as a problem.

(Either the PCs have access to magic shops - and they've had so much access to them of late it's being curtailed in the next campaign - or magic items are extremely rare. Creating them requires both feats (which are better spent on being more heavily optimised) and either XP (which my players would rather chew off their own arms than spend and the DMs would rather very much not have track seperate XP for the characters of the party (of which there is now 8-9 players), thank you very much anyway - my day-quest adventures use the XP system of "you level up now") or reagents (in the magic-item-rare world, like old-school AD&D magic item creation was).

That and the fact that by the time 4th levels spells are A Thing everything that can packs Dispel Magic as a matter of principle.


And at very high levels, four attacks at 9D6 damage (or a bit more) is only fairly mediocre compared to what even the martials are handing out (with our modifications, like extra feats). Current Fighter duel dagger thrower is dealing D4+13+D6 with eight attacks a round at level 16 (crit on 17); and the *shudder* Rogue/Ninja/Invisible Blade/Swordsage is up to something like five attacks at 12D6 per...!

[Fouredged Sword]

I just find BAB to be less of a significant factor than many people state as Divine power is such a work around that scales with the level of the target, not the level of the spell. One wand of divine power will see a warlock through the last 10 levels or so of the game. It is a cheep option for that extra attack and a bonus on to all attacks each round.

[Aotrs Commander]

I just find BAB to be less of a significant factor than many people state as Divine power is such a work around that scales with the level of the target, not the level of the spell. One wand of divine power will see a warlock through the last 10 levels or so of the game. It is a cheep option for that extra attack and a bonus on to all attacks each round.

The 32 damage of a current 20th level Warlock is pathetic on a single target - you pretty much have to be using area-effect attacks at that point. Even with four attacks per round, even on ranged touch, the Warlock is very solid, but not spectacular. 36D6 is still only upper-middlingly good in terms of damage at level 20. Now if that was for easily spammable-area effects, I'd agree it's too powerful - but like I said, it wouldn't apply to any Blast Shapes. As just point-damage, though, it's really nothing special. It's 126 average.

Well, 16th level party's dagger-throwing fighter just this evening was dealing out more than that per round. He's on D4+13 (+14 within 50' (and he has 90' range increments with his dagger) +15 with Elation)+D6 (+D8 if he gets Sneak Attack from is one level of rogue with Sacred Strike) and capable of easily dealing out that with a full attack action and his attack is generally more than plenty enough to land six to eight hits and usually one of those will be a crit.

Heck the lesser optimised of the other rogues is duel-wielding short swords (GTWF) with 8D6 Sneak Attack (54D6 per round...!) and the aforemention multiclass ninja dude is on something like 60D6, once in position). The Paladin is usually dealing 50-70 damage per hit.

Put it this way. Thay Mazed a barbarian during today's combat and had enough time (about 17 rounds *sigh*) to mop up the enemy and place themselves to take a ready action to attack when she reappeared. There were two astral contructs, and six of the eight party members all just making one attack of opportunity and one of the other casting one D6/level spell (max 15D6). They did 297 damage. Which is about 40 damage per single attack. Without expending any resources or effort other than one spell, two if you count the still-running buff of Elation.

We play in a mid-high op environment where that is basically the norm.



So, in short: I'm not worried at all about four Eldritch Blasts...!

[Fouredged Sword]

Basicly that is what I was suggesting. Let him have his iteratives, just don't let him start mixing in blast shapes ON TOP of the iteratives.

Another cool idea is a "Eldrich Missile" blast shape. Standard action to fire X 1d6 damage missiles, where X is the number of dice in your endrich blast normally deals in damage. Effects that add extra dice of blast damage instead increase the number of missiles. This missiles auto hit and can be divided between any number of targets within close range and no more than 15ft apart.

Cool effect, but not really powerful during the late game.

[Aotrs Commander]

Basicly that is what I was suggesting. Let him have his iteratives, just don't let him start mixing in blast shapes ON TOP of the iteratives.

So we're just really loudly agreeing with each other, as is typical form for these forums...!

I will add a note then, to the effect that without a blast shape, you can make iterative attacks with Eldritch Blast. (I am of two minds as to whether to allow you to do so with Eldritch Spear at the moment, I can see arguements for both ways.)


Another cool idea is a "Eldrich Missile" blast shape. Standard action to fire X 1d6 damage missiles, where X is the number of dice in your endrich blast normally deals in damage. Effects that add extra dice of blast damage instead increase the number of missiles. This missiles auto hit and can be divided between any number of targets within close range and no more than 15ft apart.

Cool effect, but not really powerful during the late game.

It's an idea. Though balancing it right would be the trick. It's basically a slightly higher damage cap Magic Missile, and by the time the damage is high enough, there are probably better things to be doing (ranged touches aren't that hard, especially if you're focussed into it) or at least better blast shapes to be spending a slot on.

On the other hand, cranking the damage up too high (by making it 2D4 or 2D6 per D6) would make it perhaps a bit too good (18D6 automatic damage every round) as it's spammable.

Maybe make it something like D4+ 2 or 3 per D6? Maybe even a flat 5 per D6?

I dunno. Further though for the morning, at any rate.

[Fouredged Sword]

I see it as more situational to remove greater mirror image or to hit targets with irritating miss chances, mix it with a status effect to mass deliver it to foes packed close together, or hit that one guy with a high touch AC (because that happens every once and a while) with high reflex saves and evasion (because that normally comes with a high touch AC)

I would put it in play somewhere around when the second iterative comes into play, around 8th for 3/4th bab characters. I would expect it to see play until the third iterative came around, then you would be trading too much for the benefit to have it be worth it for most attacks.

It is not a shape I would always take, but it is a shape that I would consider based on the fights I kept getting into. That is the balance point I aim for.