[D&D 3.5 PrC] Elder Evil Epigone [PEACH]

[Xuldarinar]

This has been moved. To see the latest version of the Elder Evil Epigone, click the following link (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=308376).

[AmberVael]

First Decisions:
-One size fits all, or set? If we go with one size fits all, then we go one of two paths. All EEEs have the same features, or they select based upon their Elder Evil when receiving a class features.
Perhaps the best of both? Rather than making specific paths, you could make sets of abilities that can be selected from as one desires. A bit of customization makes a class interesting, and it would allow for different expressions of each Elder Evil. Even other options become available, like trying to use the class for custom/new Elder Evils, or maybe someone who worships the Evils in general.


-BaB and Saves. Its not the most important thing, but we should consider this. One size fits all, then we may be looking at 1 good save that suits all of them. We could alter the entry to Good save(s), Poor save(s), and the progression is based upon the elder evil selected.
I'd go one size fits all here though, as it is far simpler that way. In that case, the chassis should reflect the general type of person who is called into the service of an Elder Evil. I believe I would either aim for a middle ground kind of approach (such as a cleric), or go for a more lightweight scholar chassis.

[Xuldarinar]

Perhaps the best of both? Rather than making specific paths, you could make sets of abilities that can be selected from as one desires. A bit of customization makes a class interesting, and it would allow for different expressions of each Elder Evil. Even other options become available, like trying to use the class for custom/new Elder Evils, or maybe someone who worships the Evils in general.


I'd go one size fits all here though, as it is far simpler that way. In that case, the chassis should reflect the general type of person who is called into the service of an Elder Evil. I believe I would either aim for a middle ground kind of approach (such as a cleric), or go for a more lightweight scholar chassis.

I like your idea, and whom ever shows up first has the most say. Im going with, currently, cleric BaB and Save advancement. Its going to just be a single one size fits all PrC, with features every so often that you can select from a list. Some should have prerequisites, likely just other selections, but for the most part a very free form list.

[Xuldarinar]

Im currently thinking of what sorts of features to put under Vile Blessing. Honestly, beyond keeping to the theme I'm not sure. Perhaps the true abilities should all be based upon an ability their elder evil have, and I'm thinking of making one of the blessings of Father Llymic be the ability to temporarily take on the Brood Spawn template, like a form of template wild shape. Sadly, even if I knew what abilities to grant, I'm not certain about the level (Least, Lesser, Greater, True) to make them.

[Kazyan]

You mention that some practitioners will follow a number of Elder Evils instead of a singular one. Let's think of this in optimizer terms: if some powergamer were to take levels in this class, they'd totally cherrypick, so there's not much reason to follow a single Elder Evil. I propose making the choice more meaningful: maybe if you follow multiple, you have to pick a different Elder Evil's blessing for the first 9 levels and go through them all in that way, so you can't double up on e.g. Father Llymic until the True Blessing at level 10. Alternatively, if you follow multiple Elder Evils, maybe you lose the casting progression/bonus feat on the level that you detour from your first Elder Evil selection. Or maybe you have to take an Elder Evil's lower-tier blessings before getting the better ones. Just throwing out ideas, here!

Atropus should definitely grant undead immunities or eventual undead type, or the ability to bestow negative levels. We don't want it to be obsoleted by Necropolitan...maybe provide other benefits if you're already undead. Gradual undeath for those filthy living creatures, but Necropolitans and other undead get the ability to throw negative levels and eventually Cha to HP instead of Con.

Dunno much about the Hulks, but the Leviathan is about chaos, and its dreams can create monsters. Maybe some summoning abilities and the ability to go play in the water comfortably. It's a sea creature, after all.

Pandorym is psionics, full stop. Granting psi-like abilities from increasingly higher-level powers is an option, but I'm sure there's something more creative than that. It also runs into the "1/day SLAs are totally class features" thing Iron Chef has observed, but it's accompanied by casting progression, so it can't be all bad.

For Ragnorra, look into Thrall of Juiblex for ideas. I also like the idea of being able to corrupt hit dice for the True blessing.

Sertrous and The Worm that Walks are kinda greek to me, but Zargon is the giant pile of hard-to-kill and enormousness. I can see getting, say, a tiny pool of bonus temporary HP every encounter as a Least Blessing, then going all the way to an amount of Fast Healing or DR/epic that actually matters for the True Blessing. Or maybe Powerful Build.

I'll leave Negative Zero's blessings to your interpretation.

[Xuldarinar]

You mention that some practitioners will follow a number of Elder Evils instead of a singular one. Let's think of this in optimizer terms: if some powergamer were to take levels in this class, they'd totally cherrypick, so there's not much reason to follow a single Elder Evil. I propose making the choice more meaningful: maybe if you follow multiple, you have to pick a different Elder Evil's blessing for the first 9 levels and go through them all in that way, so you can't double up on e.g. Father Llymic until the True Blessing at level 10. Alternatively, if you follow multiple Elder Evils, maybe you lose the casting progression/bonus feat on the level that you detour from your first Elder Evil selection. Or maybe you have to take an Elder Evil's lower-tier blessings before getting the better ones. Just throwing out ideas, here!

Atropus should definitely grant undead immunities or eventual undead type, or the ability to bestow negative levels. We don't want it to be obsoleted by Necropolitan...maybe provide other benefits if you're already undead. Gradual undeath for those filthy living creatures, but Necropolitans and other undead get the ability to throw negative levels and eventually Cha to HP instead of Con.

Dunno much about the Hulks, but the Leviathan is about chaos, and its dreams can create monsters. Maybe some summoning abilities and the ability to go play in the water comfortably. It's a sea creature, after all.

Pandorym is psionics, full stop. Granting psi-like abilities from increasingly higher-level powers is an option, but I'm sure there's something more creative than that. It also runs into the "1/day SLAs are totally class features" thing Iron Chef has observed, but it's accompanied by casting progression, so it can't be all bad.

For Ragnorra, look into Thrall of Juiblex for ideas. I also like the idea of being able to corrupt hit dice for the True blessing.

Sertrous and The Worm that Walks are kinda greek to me, but Zargon is the giant pile of hard-to-kill and enormousness. I can see getting, say, a tiny pool of bonus temporary HP every encounter as a Least Blessing, then going all the way to an amount of Fast Healing or DR/epic that actually matters for the True Blessing. Or maybe Powerful Build.

I'll leave Negative Zero's blessings to your interpretation.



What an excellent point, and those are some good idea. I've already applied the limitation on selecting multiple elder evil's blessings. As for what each blessing has, I've added up to Pandorym, but these are just ideas. There is a lot to hammer out. Honestly I'm finding llymic to be one of the easier for me to work with, at least thats what I think. I will be getting to negative zero last, once everything else has been refined a bit. I want solid examples to work from first. Wouldn't want to do it injustice early on.

I will, in a little bit, go back over and do some changes taking your suggestions into account. Im a little burned out at the moment though. Please, if you or anyone else has more to add then by all means say so. The more I got before I start in on editing again, the better.




Update: I've tweaked what I have so far, but theres more work to go. Im likely going to do Zargon next to be honest. It seems like it may be the simplest.

[Xuldarinar]

I've now added blessings for all of the official elder evils, with exception to Sertrous, who I have honestly no idea how to approach at this point in time. After I have filled this in, I'm considering removing WiP, leaving this as PEACH. Regardless, I still want all the feedback I can get. If you have any advice on how to handle to features for the last elder evil, or suggested changes for the others, then I'd love to hear.

[Kazyan]

Let's see...Sertuous is associated with snakes, yuan-ti, being an obyrith, faithlessness and deception.

Least Blessing: 1/day reroll a Bluff check.

Lesser Blessing: As a swift action 1/day, gain a bite attack that deals no damage, but poisons for 1d3 Con damage. Save DC 10 + class level + Con. Look at Animal Devotion's Serpent thingie.

Greater Blessing: Form of Madness, as the ability of the [Obyrith] subtype.

True Blessing: Pick a domain besides Good or Law. You now have access to it for your spellcasting class, along with the domain granted power, but you have to worship something thematic and antitheistic to retain access to the domain.

[Xuldarinar]

Let's see...Sertuous is associated with snakes, yuan-ti, being an obyrith, faithlessness and deception.

Least Blessing: 1/day reroll a Bluff check.

Lesser Blessing: As a swift action 1/day, gain a bite attack that deals no damage, but poisons for 1d3 Con damage. Save DC 10 + class level + Con. Look at Animal Devotion's Serpent thingie.

Greater Blessing: Form of Madness, as the ability of the [Obyrith] subtype.

True Blessing: Pick a domain besides Good or Law. You now have access to it for your spellcasting class, along with the domain granted power, but you have to worship something thematic and antitheistic to retain access to the domain.

Added. Thank you for your help. This weekend I'll get to Negative Zero. If you have any pointers on that, feel free to give them, but if not i'll try to do it justice.

[Kazyan]

I'll leave that one to your interpretation, actually. Afterwards, I'll do an editing/nitpicking runthrough of the class.

[Xuldarinar]

I've added blessings for negative zero. Im not sure it does her justice, but it emulates the use of necrocarnum, and the true blessing and a special quality of the blessing track take into account the fact she was created by psionics.

[Zarthrax]

Just noticed this, but as written, the character never actually learns the necrocarnum weapon soulmeld if devoted to Negative Zero.

Edit: Also, here's another Elder Evil (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=75718) for your workings...lol

Double Edit: This also should specify in some way whether or not they gain access to the heart chakra at all. As written, they gain the ability to bind necrocarnum weapon to the heart chakra, but not the actual chakra.

[Xuldarinar]

Just noticed this, but as written, the character never actually learns the necrocarnum weapon soulmeld if devoted to Negative Zero.

Edit: Also, here's another Elder Evil (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=75718) for your workings...lol

Double Edit: This also should specify in some way whether or not they gain access to the heart chakra at all. As written, they gain the ability to bind necrocarnum weapon to the heart chakra, but not the actual chakra.

Then it looks like I have some edits to do and some content to put in. Thank you. What changes would you recommend, and any ideas as to how I should approach Assatur?

[Zarthrax]

Hmmmm.

Negative Zero, being a homebrew Elder Evil, is only available as a sole devotion. Why not just give him dual advancement in psionics and incarnum? Or give it limited meldshaping, and maybe a few iterations of Shape Soulmeld? Either way, I feel like it should always get access to the Necrocarnum soulmelds.

The capstone feels a little underwhelming. How about this?


True Blessing of Negative Zero:

You manage to draw out an infinitesimal fraction of Negative Zero into reality whenever you need to defend the interests.

Benefit: Add 2 to your total essentia pool. You may cast Conjure Greater Midnight Construct 1/encounter as a standard action. The construct gains a copy of any one soulmeld you have shaped, and may assign essentia as part of the same action the Epigone uses to reassign his.

I'd still keep the incorporeal part, but maybe undead instead of aberration?

Assatur-

Hmmmm, again.

Well, the major component here is the fact that Assatur and Carcosa are a sentient, malevolent memetic virus.

Least Blessing- something that interferes with speech, imitating Assatur's sign
Lesser Blessing- something that does Wisdom damage
Greater Blessing- Insanity 1/day as a spell like ability, delayed by anywhere from 1 round to 1 week.
True Blessing- Mind Seed and Astral Seed 1/day each as a psi-like ability with no XP component.

[Xuldarinar]

Hmmmm.

Negative Zero, being a homebrew Elder Evil, is only available as a sole devotion. Why not just give him dual advancement in psionics and incarnum? Or give it limited meldshaping, and maybe a few iterations of Shape Soulmeld? Either way, I feel like it should always get access to the Necrocarnum soulmelds.

The capstone feels a little underwhelming. How about this?


True Blessing of Negative Zero:

You manage to draw out an infinitesimal fraction of Negative Zero into reality whenever you need to defend the interests.

Benefit: Add 2 to your total essentia pool. You may cast Conjure Greater Midnight Construct 1/encounter as a spell-like ability. The construct gains a copy of any one soulmeld you have shaped, and may assign essentia as part of the same action the Epigone uses to reassign his.


Assatur-

Hmmmm, again.

Well, the major component here is the fact that Assatur and Carcosa are a sentient, malevolent memetic virus.

Least Blessing- something that interferes with speech, imitating Assatur's sign
Lesser Blessing- something that does Wisdom damage
Greater Blessing- Insanity 1/day as a spell like ability, delayed by anywhere from 1 round to 1 week.
True Blessing- Mind Seed and Astral Seed 1/day each as a psi-like ability with no XP component.

Thank you for your help, I will get to work on these things in the near future.

Though, now I'm feeling inspired to make an elder evil of my own. I could even use it to bridge content between my home-brewed race (the pharin), and this PrC.

[Zarthrax]

Oh! Almost forgot!

Might want to have the capstone from Negative Zero grant Undead Meldshaper as a bonus feat as well....lol