rogue (hide/sneak attack) questions

[shendelzar]

I am building a rogue for a 3.5 campaign.
I have questions about hide and sneak attack.

This is best spelled out in a couple scenarios:

Scenario 1:
lets say I have a large grassy field with low cut grass with no trees on a bright sunny day. Now lets say there is a globe of darkness set in this field. My rogue somehow has ability to see out of the globe and is 5 feet in the globe so noone can see him. Now lets say there is an enemy with no supernatural vision abilities standing 10 feet outside the globe. He cannot see me. Can I leave the globe, walk up to him and sneak attack him? or would he instantly see me and no longer be denied dex as soon as I left the globe(even if i rolled a 30 on a hide check, and a 30 move silent)?

scenario2:
Same scene setup, except instead of low cut grass - lets call it waist high thick brush and no globe of darkness. Im hiding in the brush 15 feet away. Can I sneak up to the target, sneak attack, then reroll hide(at -20) to get another sneak attack with my off hand weapon(assume 2 weapon fighting).


Depending on answers - I may have more questions.

[gr8artist]

It kinda' depends on the DM, but the general idea is that as soon as you leave whatever is providing you the ability to hide, you can be spotted. Whether the DM lets you hide because of the grass/brush is up to them and their interpretation/imagination.
Now, some would let you wait to leave your cover until he's looking the other way. This is often the case with things like sneaking past guards. But, mechanically, in combat, everybody is facing every direction at all times.

So, if he's just kinda wandering aimlessly, the answer is "probably OK" to sneak up behind him with the old gankaroo.
But if he's actively looking for you, and you leave cover, you're pretty much boned.

Buy a bow and ignore the problem entirely.

[Fouredged Sword]

No, hiding is a move action. You can take one attack (standard action) and then use a move action to hide at a -20 because you just shot/stabbed someone.

[Emperor Tippy]

"Sneak up from Hiding: You can sneak up on someone after emerging from a hiding place. For every 5 feet of open space between you and the target, you take a –5 penalty on your Hide check. If your Hide check succeeds, your target doesn’t notice you until you attack or perform some other attention-grabbing action. Such a target is treated as being flat-footed with respect to you."

Rules Compendium page 92

[BowStreetRunner]

scenario2:
Same scene setup, except instead of low cut grass - lets call it waist high thick brush and no globe of darkness. Im hiding in the brush 15 feet away. Can I sneak up to the target, sneak attack, then reroll hide(at -20) to get another sneak attack with my off hand weapon(assume 2 weapon fighting).

Tippy has the correct answer regarding the first part of your question. As to the second part, there are several rules that come into play.

First: You need cover or concealment to attempt a new hide check after the attack. The Camouflage ability which Rangers and Scouts have gets around this requirement.

Second: You cannot attempt to hide while being observed. The Hide in Plain Sight ability which Rangers and Scouts have gets around this requirement.

Third: You normally hide as part of a move action. So you would normally need to take a move action after the attack to hide again - whether you use it to move to a hiding place or just use it to re-hide using available cover and concealment where you are.

The rule that Tippy referenced allows you to go from cover and concealment and attempt to approach without being observed. But once you attack, that would usually mean you are automatically detected. However, at the top of page 92 there is a rule that states "You can take a –20 penalty on your Hide check to hide while attacking, running, or charging." I would take this to mean that you can roll to remain hidden during the attack - however that hide check would still require cover and concealment or camouflage.

[Curmudgeon]

If it's a globe created by a Darkness or Deeper Darkness spell, you're still visible. Darkness creates regular concealment (as "shadowy illumination"), not total concealment (full darkness). You can see out, and enemies can see in — just dimly, so there's a miss chance for attacks.

If you've established all the requirements to Hide (enemy who could make opposed Spot check, cover/concealment, and not being observed) you can try to Hide while attacking; you don't have to move. There's a steep penalty, is all.
It’s practically impossible (-20 penalty) to hide while attacking, running or charging. Supernatural Hide in Plain Sight, such as the ability in the Shadowdancer and Assassin classes, is how you'd generally Hide in almost all circumstances. Even the shadow of a blade of grass or grain of sand, anywhere within 10' of your position, is enough to enable this magical Hide enabler. (If there's total darkness but your enemies have darkvision you're in trouble: no shadows.)

[gr8artist]

Wow, OK, I was wrong about emerging from hiding. My rogues would have been glad to know that during our year-long campaign.. :smalleek:

[BowStreetRunner]

Supernatural Hide in Plain Sight, such as the ability in the Shadowdancer and Assassin classes, is how you'd generally Hide in almost all circumstances. Even the shadow of a blade of grass or grain of sand, anywhere within 10' of your position, is enough to enable this magical Hide enabler. (If there's total darkness but your enemies have darkvision you're in trouble: no shadows.)

Just a word of caution: you need to be careful with Camouflage and Hide in Plain Sight, as there are classes who have abilities with this name that do not have the same description under the abilities. In the Scout and Ranger versions Camouflage overcomes the need for cover or concealment while Hide in Plain Sight allows you to make an attempt while being observed. In the Shadowdancer version of HiPS however, it references hiding both "while being observed" and "without anything to actually hide behind" which is effectively both abilities combined.

Personally, I think this is a matter of poor templating. Keyword abilities should be consistent throughout the entire game, and all of the writers should have used the same templates for class abilities like this to avoid confusion. However, it is what it is and classes like Forest Reeve are out there with very differently worded versions of abilities with the same name.

[Curmudgeon]

Just a word of caution: you need to be careful with Camouflage and Hide in Plain Sight, as there are classes who have abilities with this name that do not have the same description under the abilities.
There are at least 6 different D&D abilities identically named Hide in Plain Sight. The general rule is that the Supernatural versions also remove the need for cover/concealment; the Extraordinary versions do not (and are often, but not always, paired with something called Camouflage which independently takes care of that Hide requirement).

Unless you find specific language which states otherwise, Hide in Plain Sight only satisfies the "not being observed" requirement to use the Hide skill, and you'll need to independently satisfy the cover/concealment requirement.

[Emperor Tippy]

There are at least 6 different D&D abilities identically named Hide in Plain Sight. The general rule is that the Supernatural versions also remove the need for cover/concealment; the Extraordinary versions do not (and are often, but not always, paired with something called Camouflage which independently takes care of that Hide requirement).

Unless you find specific language which states otherwise, Hide in Plain Sight only satisfies the "not being observed" requirement to use the Hide skill, and you'll need to independently satisfy the cover/concealment requirement.

And there is also Blend Into Shadows, which effectively gives you HiPS as a swift action but doesn't call it such.

[Chronos]

There are at least 6 different D&D abilities identically named Hide in Plain Sight. The general rule is that the Supernatural versions also remove the need for cover/concealment; the Extraordinary versions do not (and are often, but not always, paired with something called Camouflage which independently takes care of that Hide requirement).There is no such general rule. The Brownie (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/al/20041006a)'s HiPS is extraordinary, but still removes the need for concealment. The Umbral Disciple (Magic of Incarnum) version is supernatural, but does not remove the need for concealment, although it comes along with an ability that provides concealment. The Dark template version is the only version of Hide in Plain Sight from any source that doesn't do anything at all about the concealment requirement.

[shendelzar]

WoW
Lots of good info to use...
If it says I can take a -20 to remain hidden - would i need a move action?

thinking walk up form my hiding spot(make a hide at -5* squares traversed); STABBY; make a hide check at -20 to remain hidden.

[cerin616]

I don't know if you can re hide after a melee attack without getting some distance and making a hide. it says you can after a ranged atack, but makes no mention of a melee attack. I wouldn't allow it without hide in plain sight at the very least.


If you’ve already successfully hidden at least 10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack, then immediately hide again. You take a -20 penalty on your Hide check to conceal yourself after the shot.


As for concealment, if you have total concealment you dont need to make a hide check unless the enemy has vision that can see through it


total concealment usually (but not always; see Special, below) obviates the need for a Hide check, since nothing can see you anyway.

you only need partial concealment to hide.

You need cover or concealment in order to attempt a Hide check.

Darkness cannot be penetrated by any means of vision


Even creatures that can normally see in such conditions (such as with darkvision or low-light vision) have the miss chance in an area shrouded in magical darkness.

you can use bluff to hide even while being observed


You can use Bluff to help you hide. A successful Bluff check can give you the momentary diversion you need to attempt a Hide check while people are aware of you.

All this together means: Yes you can hide in the darkness, but only if you make a successful bluff check and hide check. As tippy quoted above, you can take a penalty to move from the hiding spot to sneak up and get an attack. You cannot rehide directly after according to RAW because you are not 10 feet away and making a ranged check.

EDIT: you might be able to (next turn) move into the globe again, make a bluff check and a hide check.