Monk/Cleric with VoP/Saint looking for suitable PrC?

[Gargravarr]

Hello there.

So, coming from someone who usually plays casters I decided to try the monk (shame on me!) in a new group. Seeing as the monk is pretty weak I'm trying my best to compensate, so far I'm a Level 5 human monk and doing the following:

Have VoP since Level 1, consider taking the Saint template with Level 6.
Consider multiclassing into Cleric. My role should be to tank and do some healing since we have no Healer in our group. Also extending the Unarmed Damage would be nice, if possible, so I'm not super weak in offenses. (I see the tip of stacking size later on is thrown around often)

Further I'd like to delve into a prestige class, Sacred Fist seems to harmonize beautifully here.

I've read a lot of posts regarding the monk and it is generally not advised to go VoP and go for magic items instead but meh, am trying to do the best out of the situation now.

DM allows all 3.5 WotC sources, no homebrews.

The lawful good alignment restricts quite heavily, so no Ur-Priest or the likes :(

Any tips if above is justifiable? Any other interesting PrCs I shall look into?

Sorry for the noobish entry post, guess I'd have to start somewhere :eek:

Cheers!

ETA: Added more details for role clarification.

[Waker]

Before you go this route, make sure to talk to your DM in advance and see if he is willing to handwaive the VoP interfering with owning a Holy Symbol. Kinda need one to be a proper cleric.

Alternatively you might look into multiclassing into Swordsage, Totemist or Binder to expand on your "magical" abilities. Normally I would include Incarnate in that suggestion, but your LG alignment prevents that. Crusader would be an amusing suggestion, if for no other reason than your ability to be a "healer" by punching your enemies.
Of the classes I suggested, Totemist is probably the most multiclass friendly. A few levels will get you all the soulmelds and some essentia, while taking feats later on can open the chakra points for you, giving you access to Flight, Teleports and other stuff that you sorely lack as a VoP character. Totemist works especially well if you take Beast Strike (Drg#355) to combine unarmed and natural attacks.

[Gargravarr]

Before you go this route, make sure to talk to your DM in advance and see if he is willing to handwaive the VoP interfering with owning a Holy Symbol. Kinda need one to be a proper cleric.

Alternatively you might look into multiclassing into Swordsage, Totemist or Binder to expand on your "magical" abilities. Normally I would include Incarnate in that suggestion, but your LG alignment prevents that. Crusader would be an amusing suggestion, if for no other reason than your ability to be a "healer" by punching your enemies.
Of the classes I suggested, Totemist is probably the most multiclass friendly. A few levels will get you all the soulmelds and some essentia, while taking feats later on can open the chakra points for you, giving you access to Flight, Teleports and other stuff that you sorely lack as a VoP character. Totemist works especially well if you take Beast Strike (Drg#355) to combine unarmed and natural attacks.

Thanks for the feedback!

Swordsage looks kinda boring, tbh. Crusader I considered as well for the fun factor...

Totemist sounds indeed interesting, will look into that.

I've stumbled upon "Improved natural attack" and "Superior unarmed strikes" as feats to boost natural attacks, wondering if the former double stacks if someone casts "Enlarge person" on me, would be probably worth checking out.

Tashalatora seems suggested quite often, though requires the Psionic route.


Keep 'em coming!

[Emperor Tippy]

Ok, first off you need to decide where you are going to be a cleric who dips a level or three of Monk for some reason or a Monk who might have a bit of cleric in his build.

Because Monk/Cleric is honestly one of the most traptastic synergies in the game. They look like they should work well together but they really, really, don't.

The only PrC that I remember that advances both monk abilities and Divine Casting is Sarced Fist and it doesn't suck but its not that great either.

One level of Shiba Protector nets you Wis to Attack and Damage.

----
Monks can be made good at two types of combat; Archery and a standard action attack Skirmisher but both require that you devote virtually all of your build to whichever one you choose.

[Gargravarr]

Ok, first off you need to decide where you are going to be a cleric who dips a level or three of Monk for some reason or a Monk who might have a bit of cleric in his build.

Because Monk/Cleric is honestly one of the most traptastic synergies in the game. They look like they should work well together but they really, really, don't.

The only PrC that I remember that advances both monk abilities and Divine Casting is Sarced Fist and it doesn't suck but its not that great either.

One level of Shiba Protector nets you Wis to Attack and Damage.

----
Monks can be made good at two types of combat; Archery and a standard action attack Skirmisher but both require that you devote virtually all of your build to whichever one you choose.

Cheers!

As per OP am already Monk Level 5, so am looking to flesh it out and go more damage/spellcasting and do some healing with a Cleric aside, that's the basic idea. Sacred Fist I already saw, am just curious if there are feasible alternatives :)

Shiba Protector, I see... off to read some more!

[Emperor Tippy]

Cheers!

As per OP am already Monk Level 5, so am looking to flesh it out and go more damage/spellcasting and do some healing with a Cleric aside, that's the basic idea. Sacred Fist I already saw, am just curious if there are feasible alternatives :)

Shiba Protector, I see... off to read some more!

I'm guessing that you haven't availed yourself of any of the Monk ACF's and variants that might make the monk something actually approaching decent, have you?

[Gavinfoxx]

Yea, if you are already a monk 5, and you want to actually, you know, be competent by the numbers at anything higher than the lowest optimization and difficulty levels, get permission to entirely rebuild your character from the DM (look at PHB II for retraining and rebuilding quest rules), or suicide and get a new character.

In some ways, playing a Monk is worse than playing an Expert or Warrior (not all the time, but sometimes, yea). It's definitely worse than being an Adept.

However, it sounds like this game is at the lowest levels of optimization there is, based on some clues you have dropped...

Like the fact that you don't know that healing is a job for a few 750 gp items, to be done outside of combat, and stuff like that.

[Vaz]

Have a look at the Wis/Con stacking you can get with a Paladin/Monk/Ninja/shiba Protector/Fist of the Forest Saint with Serenity, Enduring Ki and Extra Ki Pool on a VoP.

[Nettlekid]

What I suggest is that you not actually go Cleric at all. Instead take Vow of Nonviolence, Vow of Peace (you can still do nonlethal damage, which kind of fits for a Saint Monk), and then go into Apostle of Peace for two levels, before moving into Sacred Fist. You'll be able to make 9th level spells, and still squeeze in a couple levels of Swordsage or some other class that you'd like. The Apostle of Peace spells are highly based on nonviolence, either healing or incapacitating your enemy, but you will be able to prepare Exalted spells (I'm a huge fan of Constricting Chains) and all of those spells, plus your Stunning Fist, get a +4 DC bump from Vow of Nonviolence. And Apostle of Peace 2 gets you a really broken ability, a Calm Emotions touch at will with no save or SR. If anyone's angry at you, you can make them chill out. Don't abuse it. You also have Turn Undead, which means you can get Divine feats (I wouldn't go for DMM, but maybe Divine Vigor or Travel Devotion?)

I know you already have Monk 5, but my ideal build for this idea would be Monk 4/Swordsage 3/Apostle of Peace 2/Sacred Fist 7/Contemplate 1/Pious Templar 1/Swordsage +2. I guess in your case, turn Monk 4/Swordsage 3 into Monk 5/Swordsage 2. It's a bit feat-heavy, but you end up with those 9th level spells, Evasion and Mettle and very good saves, a good AC (including 2*Wis), and capable Monk abilities. Now, it's certainly not overpowered, especially compared to a "real" caster, but if you think of it as a Monk with divine assistance as opposed to a martial Cleric, it gets the job done.

[Gargravarr]

I'm guessing that you haven't availed yourself of any of the Monk ACF's and variants that might make the monk something actually approaching decent, have you?

This is correct. Hence why I've come here to ask if there's anything to achieve with a starting Level 5 monk :D I was just looking at prestige classes to build upon the already existing monk...so far.


Yea, if you are already a monk 5, and you want to actually, you know, be competent by the numbers at anything higher than the lowest optimization and difficulty levels, get permission to entirely rebuild your character from the DM (look at PHB II for retraining and rebuilding quest rules), or suicide and get a new character.

In some ways, playing a Monk is worse than playing an Expert or Warrior (not all the time, but sometimes, yea). It's definitely worse than being an Adept.

Suicide sounds pretty drastic :D
Though I expected to read such a grim outlook, I'd rather like to see if I can make something useful out of what I already got, DM would otherwise punish with a lower level if I make a new class now.


However, it sounds like this game is at the lowest levels of optimization there is, based on some clues you have dropped...

Like the fact that you don't know that healing is a job for a few 750 gp items, to be done outside of combat, and stuff like that.

This is also correct. A noob group having fun on weekends. Albeit I do have a bit of experience I can't call it optimized, neither for me or the group as a whole.

[Gargravarr]

Have a look at the Wis/Con stacking you can get with a Paladin/Monk/Ninja/shiba Protector/Fist of the Forest Saint with Serenity, Enduring Ki and Extra Ki Pool on a VoP.

Is this for real? Does sound like what I'm looking for...

[Gargravarr]

What I suggest is that you not actually go Cleric at all. Instead take Vow of Nonviolence, Vow of Peace (you can still do nonlethal damage, which kind of fits for a Saint Monk), and then go into Apostle of Peace for two levels, before moving into Sacred Fist. You'll be able to make 9th level spells, and still squeeze in a couple levels of Swordsage or some other class that you'd like. The Apostle of Peace spells are highly based on nonviolence, either healing or incapacitating your enemy, but you will be able to prepare Exalted spells (I'm a huge fan of Constricting Chains) and all of those spells, plus your Stunning Fist, get a +4 DC bump from Vow of Nonviolence. And Apostle of Peace 2 gets you a really broken ability, a Calm Emotions touch at will with no save or SR. If anyone's angry at you, you can make them chill out. Don't abuse it. You also have Turn Undead, which means you can get Divine feats (I wouldn't go for DMM, but maybe Divine Vigor or Travel Devotion?)

I know you already have Monk 5, but my ideal build for this idea would be Monk 4/Swordsage 3/Apostle of Peace 2/Sacred Fist 7/Contemplate 1/Pious Templar 1/Swordsage +2. I guess in your case, turn Monk 4/Swordsage 3 into Monk 5/Swordsage 2. It's a bit feat-heavy, but you end up with those 9th level spells, Evasion and Mettle and very good saves, a good AC (including 2*Wis), and capable Monk abilities. Now, it's certainly not overpowered, especially compared to a "real" caster, but if you think of it as a Monk with divine assistance as opposed to a martial Cleric, it gets the job done.

Yeah, read about the Apostle of Triumph and his Calming Emotions the other day...

But your build sounds indeed impressive to try, hmm.

Quite some choices now. Thanks again.

[Sith_Happens]

WARNING: Make sure the rest of party is okay with with your taking Vow of Peace. Then make sure they really are okay with it and not just saying they are. Then read the entire exact text of the feat to them and ask again. Then ask them "Are you sure?"

No one wants to be That Guy. Please Vow responsibly.

[Gavinfoxx]

Well, if the group is happy at lowest levels of optimization and crunch-competence, I would suggest something like,

"Hey guys, there are lots of interesting abilities in these books that allow different play styles, could we perhaps consider upping the threat level of our characters and the intensity and variety of the opposition? Make this game a little more serious, a little bit higher stakes, so you don't just get by perfectly fine with some of the weakest classes and tactics in the game, so it is actually harder to do as a game, requiring more skill, effort, and strategy? Like notice that the difficulty setting is on 'Casual' and move it to 'Hardcore'? And of course let us rebuild to different classes because of this?"

Here's a speech I give for groups who are new:


"D&D 3.5e is a very...interesting game system. At it's heart, it is a game which started with several assumptions: that fantastically wealthy, violent hobo land pirates go underground to the homes of things that look different than them, kick down the doors to these homes, kill the inhabitants, and take their stuff. Then they go back to town, sell most of the stuff, keep the useful bits, buy things that help them go to newer and different places where things that look MORE different then they, kill them, take their stuff, et cetera. It is a game where the stalwart fighter stands in the front and swings his sword, the rogue looks for and disables traps, or perhaps sneaks around to stab bad things with a dagger, the Wizard stands in the back and blasts things, and the Cleric keeps all of them healed while doing this. This is the heart of the game because that was how the game was played in the past, because it was a competitive, team event played at tournaments where people wargame for points, and there is a single team which is the winner. Further, you might not know the people on your team, having just met them five minutes ago at a convention, and so everyone played a simple role that was easy to understand and pick up and go, and in the olde rules, was actually generally a fairly solid way to get through modules. This is also where the idea of an adversarial GM that is trying to kill the player characters comes from. Every assumption that is 'weird' or arbitrary in the game stems from things inherited from this idea regarding how the old games used to work.

However, that's not often how the game is *played* these days, and for the most part, we aren't interested in playing that particular legacy game with it. It has been quite some time since 3.5e books started coming out, and people have had lots of time to look at them and think about them and tinker with them and figure things out. They've come up with several interesting conclusions. Namely, that if you look at the toolset represented by all these books, you essentially have a fantastic array of lego pieces to make characters to tell any sort of fantasy story you want, because Wizards of the Coast tried to be inclusive of a huge variety of fantasy gaming styles in their writings. People have also figured out that there is a dramatic and huge variation in the power level of the 'lego pieces' -- that is the classes and options tied to them -- when you start doing things with them other than the old edition legacy assumptions. So given that, the question is this: what sort of story do you want to tell with your characters, and what power level and complexity level do you want in the rules? Do you want to be people altering the fabric of reality to fit their very whims, or the gritty soldier for whom death is a real possibility in any fight -- in other words, something lower power level like Lord of the Rings, or the wuxia swordsman who is somewhere in between? Any sort of Fantasy story is a possiblity, but you have to know what you want, first!

Of course, just because anything is possible, doesn't mean that there isn't something close to a consensus amongst experts as to what the system is best at. What they say is something along these lines: the system is best for fantastic characters, fantasy superheroes of some sort (but not silver age uber-superheroes though), doing crazy, incredible things to the world around them, things which are overtly superhuman and heroic. While 3.5e is capable of much lower power and grittier things, it really starts to shine when you accept the power level of 'everyone has superpowers of some sort', provided you make choices of the correct legos appropriate to that power level, especially because of, if you are attempting to actually simulate reality with the game rather than simulate certain types of stories, things get 'wonky'. Of course, if you want to use rules based on D&D 3.5e to simulate actual reality, there are third party products such as Codex Martialis which do this admirably.

Also, there is a reason we aren't playing 4th edition. The reason is this: Wizards of the Coast realized that D&D 3.5e was laughably, ridiculously unbalanced. However, in their quest to make something manageable, they have reduced the game to only a miniatures tactical combat system where the scope of the sorts of things the characters can do which the actual rules can cover is very, very limited. This is intentional on their part, and is maybe what they had to do to balance the game. Unfortunately, it does greatly limit the sorts of stories that can be easily told with the rules in the system, even if you know your way around it backwards and forwards. This is not the case with 3.5e -- if you know your way around it, you can make anything for any sort of Fantasy story.

Finally, I thought I should make a note about some of the continuations of 3.5e which you might have heard of, such as Pathfinder and it's lesser known cousin Trailblazer. Some folk may have claimed that these fix all of the balance problems in the game. This is not true; what they do is merely continue support for the game, though they do attempt to fix some balance problems that become issues for several groups, but they for the most part ignore the inherent power and versatility differences of the 'legos' themselves, though they have been gradually adding options that allow improvements in the capability of the lower performing classes, much like D&D 3.5e did in it's actual run. They do attempt to make changes so that everyone, especially those very low-optimization level players, has some interesting and fun things to do, and for the most part, they succeed in providing obvious for lower power gamers. However, you should note that there is at least ONE system which provides the breadth of possible abilities and feel of classes and customizability that 3.5e offers, and large parts of the 'feel' of 3.5e, while keeping balance intact between the classes. This system is Ruleofcool's Legend, and I encourage you to check it out."


Here is a link with some links to metagame concepts that will help you ALL if you want to up the difficulty level:

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=399.0

Specifically, read all of the links under Metagame Concepts. And note how if you are getting by with low-optimization characters of Tiers 4-6, the game is indeed set on easy mode.

And also this:

http://antioch.snow-fall.com/~Endarire/DnD/Challenging%203.5%20and%20Pathfinder%20Parties%202 %2017%2013.doc

[Phelix-Mu]

Well, if the group is happy at lowest levels of optimization and crunch-competence, I would suggest something like,

"Hey guys, there are lots of interesting abilities in these books that allow different play styles, could we perhaps consider upping the threat level of our characters and the intensity and variety of the opposition? Make this game a little more serious, a little bit higher stakes, so you don't just get by perfectly fine with some of the weakest classes and tactics in the game, so it is actually harder to do as a game, requiring more skill, effort, and strategy? Like notice that the difficulty setting is on 'Casual' and move it to 'Hardcore'? And of course let us rebuild to different classes because of this?"


You come dangerously close to conflating "low-op" with "non-serious" here. I hope that was not your intention, as it's kind of insulting to suggest that only games using a certain op-level are for real, and everyone else is just joking around.

But I assume that wasn't the intention, and let's move on to the OP.

Monk 5 is not a great cutoff point for monk. I'd pick up one more level of monk, take the Martial Monk Variant to pick up a fighter bonus feat at 6th level. Then decide on whether you want to go for some spellcaster (Sacred Fist is a decent option, not sterling, but remember the people giving advice around here are often considering things in light of very high-end optimization). Sacred Fist text grants full 10/10 spellcasting, unlike the table, and it has several other perks, though also a hefty list of pre-req feats.

Talk to your DM seriously about switching around some of your class features to ACFs. A bit of retraining is golden. Depending on campaign, look at the monk ACFs in Complete Champion for more flavor-of-goodness. I always drop Slow Fall and go Wall Walker from Dungeonscape, as the latter is 1000% more useful, and very Crouching Tiger/Hidden Dragon.:smallcool:

Finally, if you don't want caster, consider moving toward a Stunning Fist build, which can be just fine if the campaign isn't soaked with undead and constructs. Stunning Fist, Pain Touch, Pharaoh's Fist, and a couple of other feats are all extremely useful, especially for infiltration and dealing with mooks quickly, and potentially non-lethally.

Good luck. Monk gets a lot of flack, but it's a challenge to make one work and it brings in a certain fluff that some find quite appealing.

[Gavinfoxx]

You come dangerously close to conflating "low-op" with "non-serious" here.

I didn't do that at all, I was saying that they were both (two separate concepts, that happen to be both true in this case), based on a previous reply:



This is also correct. A noob group having fun on weekends.

See?

[Gargravarr]

Well, if the group is happy at lowest levels of optimization and crunch-competence, I would suggest something like,

"Hey guys, there are lots of interesting abilities in these books that allow different play styles, could we perhaps consider upping the threat level of our characters and the intensity and variety of the opposition? Make this game a little more serious, a little bit higher stakes, so you don't just get by perfectly fine with some of the weakest classes and tactics in the game, so it is actually harder to do as a game, requiring more skill, effort, and strategy? Like notice that the difficulty setting is on 'Casual' and move it to 'Hardcore'? And of course let us rebuild to different classes because of this?"

Here's a speech I give for groups who are new:


"D&D 3.5e is a very...interesting game system. At it's heart, it is a game which started with several assumptions: that fantastically wealthy, violent hobo land pirates go underground to the homes of things that look different than them, kick down the doors to these homes, kill the inhabitants, and take their stuff. Then they go back to town, sell most of the stuff, keep the useful bits, buy things that help them go to newer and different places where things that look MORE different then they, kill them, take their stuff, et cetera. It is a game where the stalwart fighter stands in the front and swings his sword, the rogue looks for and disables traps, or perhaps sneaks around to stab bad things with a dagger, the Wizard stands in the back and blasts things, and the Cleric keeps all of them healed while doing this. This is the heart of the game because that was how the game was played in the past, because it was a competitive, team event played at tournaments where people wargame for points, and there is a single team which is the winner. Further, you might not know the people on your team, having just met them five minutes ago at a convention, and so everyone played a simple role that was easy to understand and pick up and go, and in the olde rules, was actually generally a fairly solid way to get through modules. This is also where the idea of an adversarial GM that is trying to kill the player characters comes from. Every assumption that is 'weird' or arbitrary in the game stems from things inherited from this idea regarding how the old games used to work.

However, that's not often how the game is *played* these days, and for the most part, we aren't interested in playing that particular legacy game with it. It has been quite some time since 3.5e books started coming out, and people have had lots of time to look at them and think about them and tinker with them and figure things out. They've come up with several interesting conclusions. Namely, that if you look at the toolset represented by all these books, you essentially have a fantastic array of lego pieces to make characters to tell any sort of fantasy story you want, because Wizards of the Coast tried to be inclusive of a huge variety of fantasy gaming styles in their writings. People have also figured out that there is a dramatic and huge variation in the power level of the 'lego pieces' -- that is the classes and options tied to them -- when you start doing things with them other than the old edition legacy assumptions. So given that, the question is this: what sort of story do you want to tell with your characters, and what power level and complexity level do you want in the rules? Do you want to be people altering the fabric of reality to fit their very whims, or the gritty soldier for whom death is a real possibility in any fight -- in other words, something lower power level like Lord of the Rings, or the wuxia swordsman who is somewhere in between? Any sort of Fantasy story is a possiblity, but you have to know what you want, first!

Of course, just because anything is possible, doesn't mean that there isn't something close to a consensus amongst experts as to what the system is best at. What they say is something along these lines: the system is best for fantastic characters, fantasy superheroes of some sort (but not silver age uber-superheroes though), doing crazy, incredible things to the world around them, things which are overtly superhuman and heroic. While 3.5e is capable of much lower power and grittier things, it really starts to shine when you accept the power level of 'everyone has superpowers of some sort', provided you make choices of the correct legos appropriate to that power level, especially because of, if you are attempting to actually simulate reality with the game rather than simulate certain types of stories, things get 'wonky'. Of course, if you want to use rules based on D&D 3.5e to simulate actual reality, there are third party products such as Codex Martialis which do this admirably.

Also, there is a reason we aren't playing 4th edition. The reason is this: Wizards of the Coast realized that D&D 3.5e was laughably, ridiculously unbalanced. However, in their quest to make something manageable, they have reduced the game to only a miniatures tactical combat system where the scope of the sorts of things the characters can do which the actual rules can cover is very, very limited. This is intentional on their part, and is maybe what they had to do to balance the game. Unfortunately, it does greatly limit the sorts of stories that can be easily told with the rules in the system, even if you know your way around it backwards and forwards. This is not the case with 3.5e -- if you know your way around it, you can make anything for any sort of Fantasy story.

Finally, I thought I should make a note about some of the continuations of 3.5e which you might have heard of, such as Pathfinder and it's lesser known cousin Trailblazer. Some folk may have claimed that these fix all of the balance problems in the game. This is not true; what they do is merely continue support for the game, though they do attempt to fix some balance problems that become issues for several groups, but they for the most part ignore the inherent power and versatility differences of the 'legos' themselves, though they have been gradually adding options that allow improvements in the capability of the lower performing classes, much like D&D 3.5e did in it's actual run. They do attempt to make changes so that everyone, especially those very low-optimization level players, has some interesting and fun things to do, and for the most part, they succeed in providing obvious for lower power gamers. However, you should note that there is at least ONE system which provides the breadth of possible abilities and feel of classes and customizability that 3.5e offers, and large parts of the 'feel' of 3.5e, while keeping balance intact between the classes. This system is Ruleofcool's Legend, and I encourage you to check it out."


Here is a link with some links to metagame concepts that will help you ALL if you want to up the difficulty level:

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=399.0

Specifically, read all of the links under Metagame Concepts. And note how if you are getting by with low-optimization characters of Tiers 4-6, the game is indeed set on easy mode.

And also this:

http://antioch.snow-fall.com/~Endarire/DnD/Challenging%203.5%20and%20Pathfinder%20Parties%202 %2017%2013.doc

This is sound advice, for sure...but a tad off-topic and also not something I could approach my group with at this point in time :) Though duly noted!

[Gargravarr]

Monk 5 is not a great cutoff point for monk. I'd pick up one more level of monk, take the Martial Monk Variant to pick up a fighter bonus feat at 6th level. Then decide on whether you want to go for some spellcaster (Sacred Fist is a decent option, not sterling, but remember the people giving advice around here are often considering things in light of very high-end optimization). Sacred Fist text grants full 10/10 spellcasting, unlike the table, and it has several other perks, though also a hefty list of pre-req feats.

Talk to your DM seriously about switching around some of your class features to ACFs. A bit of retraining is golden. Depending on campaign, look at the monk ACFs in Complete Champion for more flavor-of-goodness. I always drop Slow Fall and go Wall Walker from Dungeonscape, as the latter is 1000% more useful, and very Crouching Tiger/Hidden Dragon.:smallcool:

Finally, if you don't want caster, consider moving toward a Stunning Fist build, which can be just fine if the campaign isn't soaked with undead and constructs. Stunning Fist, Pain Touch, Pharaoh's Fist, and a couple of other feats are all extremely useful, especially for infiltration and dealing with mooks quickly, and potentially non-lethally.

Good luck. Monk gets a lot of flack, but it's a challenge to make one work and it brings in a certain fluff that some find quite appealing.

Wall Walker is new to me, interesting, had to google around as I do not own Dungeonscape :/

Stunning Fist has already come in handy, so did alternatively Weakening Touch though I'm about to replace that soonish.

I got more than I could have hoped for, so thanks for the insights!

[Tokiko Mima]

If all you want is a healing monk, can I recommend one level of Swordsage, then jumping into the Shadow Sun Ninja PrC?

At first level touch of the Shadow Sun lets you make your unarmed attacks as touch attacks dealing (normal unarmed damage + Wis) negative energy damage, then you turn around in the next round and touch an ally or yourself to heal the same amount in positive energy. This makes you much more accurate as a monk because touch attacks are dramatically easier to land, and you're pumping your damage amount right back into your allies constantly. This synergizes with your Monk levels better than cleric since stopping to cast heals or buffs while in melee is a drag, and makes you less of a target since it's less obvious to enemies that you're a healer.

Plus the PrC itself is kinda neat, when you analyze it. You will be blinding enemies, then gaining massive bonuses against blinded foes. When you get Flame of the Shadow Sun and have a retainer or a familiar with UMD you can borrow, they can hit you with a wand of ray of frost periodically, and let you make a swift action ranged attacks the following round.

This way you keep advancing your monk abilities and saves. If you take the unarmed swordsage variant for the one level of Swordsage, you wouldn't even lose unarmed strike progression. And you'd pick up all the simple/martial weapon proficiencies you missed with Monk.

The only thing I would do differently is work in some Eldritch Claw+Beast Strike warlock levels, because that is a sick combo and I'm a such a warlock fan.

[Averis Vol]

If all you want is a healing monk, can I recommend one level of Swordsage, then jumping into the Shadow Sun Ninja PrC?

At first level touch of the Shadow Sun lets you make your unarmed attacks as touch attacks dealing (normal unarmed damage + Wis) negative energy damage, then you turn around in the next round and touch an ally or yourself to heal the same amount in positive energy. This makes you much more accurate as a monk because touch attacks are dramatically easier to land, and you're pumping your damage amount right back into your allies constantly. This synergizes with your Monk levels better than cleric since stopping to cast heals or buffs while in melee is a drag, and makes you less of a target since it's less obvious to enemies that you're a healer.

Plus the PrC itself is kinda neat, when you analyze it. You will be blinding enemies, then gaining massive bonuses against blinded foes. When you get Flame of the Shadow Sun and have a retainer or a familiar with UMD you can borrow, they can hit you with a wand of ray of frost periodically, and let you make a swift action ranged attacks the following round.

This way you keep advancing your monk abilities and saves. If you take the unarmed swordsage variant for the one level of Swordsage, you wouldn't even lose unarmed strike progression. And you'd pick up all the simple/martial weapon proficiencies you missed with Monk.

The only thing I would do differently is work in some Eldritch Claw+Beast Strike warlock levels, because that is a sick combo and I'm a such a warlock fan.

If you go this route don't forget to pick up Shadowblade which gets you dex & str to damage with a shadow hand weapon (of which unarmed strike is one). so if you take that and a level in shiba protector you're getting str/dex/wis to damage which helps with the crippling loss of items.

[Vaz]

@Averis; you don't get Str, Shadow Blade replaces that IIRC.

Just been having a look at my build stubs here for that one I mentioned earlier;

Requires; Changeling with 2 Flaws for VoP at 1st Level, and Racial Emulation (Human), Alertness and Great Fortitude Feats, Iron Will via Otyugh Hole, IUS, Combat Expertise and Power Attack from Monk

Monk 2- Invisible Fist ACF (Exemplar's of Evil, Every 3rd round become Invisible for 1 round, Wis to AC, 2 Bonus Feats, Decisive Strike or Flurry) and Overwhelming Attack Monk (Power Attack first bonus Feat)
Paladin 2- Serenity Feat (Key Smite Evil to Wis to Attack, Divine Grace Wis to Saves, Lay on Hands becomes WisxPal Level, Turn Undead (at Paladin 4)), also works with Prestige Paladin but steeper Pre-req's, works for all classes with same abilities, but requires Divine Grace
Ninja 2- Enduring Ki Feat, Expanded Ki Pool Feat, (Ghost Step ability works to 2 rounds per use, gain 4+Wis Mod usages of Ki Pool)
Shiba Protector 1; Wis to Attack and Damage
Fist of the Forest 1; Con to AC
Saint Template- 2LA, try to get buy off Outsider Type (Polymorph+Metamorphic Transfer/Assume Su Ability abuse), Wis to AC (stacks with Monk), +2 to Save DC's (improves Touch of Golden Ice), +1d6 damage to evil with melee attacks (1d8 versus Evil Outsiders, does the same to evil creatures attacking saint with unarmed), several at will orison SLA's, DR10/evil, Fast Healing 9, immune to acid, cold, electricity, and petrification, Magic Circle v. Evil + Globe of Invulnerability all rolled into 1 (DC20), Tongues permanently active, Resist Fire 10, +4 Fort v. Poison, +2 Con+Wis, +4 Cha

This means that;

you have;

Assuming 18 Wis and Con (everything else base 8), with VoP stats to Wis, Con, and Dex, level up advancing Wis 4 times you have 30 Wis, 24 Con, 12 Cha, 10 Dex, 8 Str+Int. If LA buy off is taken, this increases to 32 Wis, 26 Con, 12 Cha and Dex, 10 Str or Int, 8 Int or Str

Assume LA buyoff for the following;
2x Wis to AC, Con to AC, Dex to AC, +10 Exalted Armour Bonus, +3 NAB, +3 Deflection Armour = AC47
+Wis (+11) to all Saves, +3 Resistance Bonus (VoP) = +14
+11 (Shiba), +5 (VoP Enhancement Bonus) to Attack, +11 (Smite Evil 1/day)
+11 (Shiba), +5 (VoP), +1d6 to Evil, DC16 1d6/2d6 Dex damage to evil for damage
4+Wis (11) = 15 Rounds of Ghost Step, with Invisible Fist ACF; 46 rounds of continuous Invisibility that is not lost if you attack. If splitting up usages of Ghost Step, each use of IF+Ghost Step+Invisible Fist gives you 4 rounds of Invisibility
- T1; Invisible Fist Trigger = Invis
- T2+3; Ghost Step 1/15 = Invis
- T4; IF = Invis
- T5+6; Ghost Step 2/15 = Invis
- ...
- T44+45; Ghost Step 15/15 = Invis
- T46; Invisible Fist = Invis

With 10 levels left, not so much a Prestige Class, but taking Ardent; between Practised Manifester and Overchannel, Linked Metapower Synchronicity with Time Mantle Ardent you can get 9th level powers and still break the action economy (and 2 levels to spare with LA buy off), with Warshaper 2 for lots of Natural Attacks (all enhanced,

With LA buy off it looks like;

Changeling Saint Monk 2/Paladin 2/Ninja 2/Ardent 4/Shiba Protector 1/Fist of the Forest 1/Warshaper 2/Ardent +6

[Averis Vol]

@Averis; you don't get Str, Shadow Blade replaces that IIRC.



Text trumps chart. It says you may add your dex as bonus damage on any melee attack with a shadow hand weapon. says nothing about replacing.

[Vaz]

Text trumps chart. It says you may add your dex as bonus damage on any melee attack with a shadow hand weapon. says nothing about replacing.

Every days an education, I never even knew that particular error existed. Cheers for that, good to know.

[Averis Vol]

Every days an education, I never even knew that particular error existed. Cheers for that, good to know.

Yea, it may have been an error, but it ended up doing a lot for melee. Its one of my favorite tricks for a ranger (with a Swordsage dip of course) with a spiked chain if I go the melee route.

[Emperor Tippy]

@Averis; you don't get Str, Shadow Blade replaces that IIRC.
Nope, it just adds Dex. It doesn't replace. I wish it did, it would make my Gray Elf Factotum/Swordsage so much better.

[Averis Vol]

Nope, it just adds Dex. It doesn't replace. I wish it did, it would make my Gray Elf Factotum/Swordsage so much better.

Wait, why would it matter exactly? replacing would just be a downgrade.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Wait, why would it matter exactly? replacing would just be a downgrade.

I'm guessing the character Tippy's talking about has a strength penalty, rather than a bonus, and that's digging into the extra damage from his dex.

[Gavinfoxx]

Wait, why would it matter exactly? replacing would just be a downgrade.

Well, lets say you have str 6 and dex 18.

With replace, you get +4 to your roll.

With add, you get +2.

See the difference?

[Emperor Tippy]

Wait, why would it matter exactly? replacing would just be a downgrade.

What others said, 6 Str with 30 Dex. If it replaced I would have +10 damage on that build instead of +8.

[Averis Vol]

Well, lets say you have str 6 and dex 18.

With replace, you get +4 to your roll.

With add, you get +2.

See the difference?


What others said, 6 Str with 30 Dex. If it replaced I would have +10 damage on that build instead of +8.

Alright, that makes sense. I was assuming a baseline of at least 10 str. my bad. I guess I'm used to playing with power rolled stats, so the thought of a 6 str didn't even cross my mind.

[Emperor Tippy]

Alright, that makes sense. I was assuming a baseline of at least 10 str. my bad. I guess I'm used to playing with power rolled stats, so the thought of a 6 str didn't even cross my mind.

32 PB on a Gray Elf for 18 Dex, 18 Int before racial mods and 6,20,6,20,8,8 after racial mods.

[Averis Vol]

32 PB on a Gray Elf for 18 Dex, 18 Int before racial mods and 6,20,6,20,8,8 after racial mods.

With, I'm assuming, keen intellect and faerie mystery initiates who the hell needs con or wis :smallbiggrin:

either way thanks for the clear up.

[TuggyNE]

With, I'm assuming, keen intellect and faerie mystery initiates who the hell needs con or wis :smallbiggrin:

either way thanks for the clear up.

T.G. Oskar can't make a post under 500 words, Tippy can't make a Wizard without FMI. Playground quirks, amirite?

[Averis Vol]

why yes, yes you are right.

[Emperor Tippy]

T.G. Oskar can't make a post under 500 words, Tippy can't make a Wizard without FMI. Playground quirks, amirite?

Nah, I can but its just stupid not to FMI Gray Elf for most anything that can be Int based if you can take it.

Granted, I also have no problem making a core only wizard with 6 Con and my measly 1 HP per level.

Nothing beats adding in Frail. ECL 20 wizard with less than 10 HP. I consistently lived the longest between deaths.

[Sgt. Cookie]

See if your DM will let you retrain into Fighting Style Monk (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#monkVariantFightingSty les). Cobra Strike and Overwhelming attack* are the best ones. If you go the OA route, be sure to pick up Imperious Command. Unless I've done my maths wrong, you should have a +10 bonus to most, if not all, Bull Rush checks against intimidated opponents.

If you had dungeonscape, I'd mix in a couple of levels of Dungeoncrasher. Hm, now that gives me an idea...


*Monk doesn't get Intimidate as a Skill, nor does Overwhelming Attack give it to you. It wouldn't be unreasonable to houserule it in.