Knight Build

[chrisgray86]

Hey guys got some questions I was hoping that you could help with. I am currently playing a level 3 Dwarf Dragonborn Knight. Stats are

Str 18
Dex 12
con 18
Int 12
Wis 10
Cha 13

My character Uses a dwarven war pike and a heavy flail for my feats I have taken Improved initiative and Power attack. I am looking for another feat and was thinking combat reflexes but that is biased on Dex so I would only get one extra AoO. What other feats would you recommend. I have read a few other boards and some people say to only take five levels in knight the rest is useless. I am open so give me your best ideas I am really open! Thanks

[Malvanis]

Get the heaviest armor and the best shield you can get your hands on. The knight class is the ultimate meat shield. Nothing gets by you. Personally, I don't really like classes with codes such as paladin or knight. They restrict me too much.

[Person_Man]

Knight Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=109429)

Covers most of what I can offer as advice for a Knight build.

[chrisgray86]

Knight Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=109429)

Covers most of what I can offer as advice for a Knight build.

Yeah I have been through your guide its great. I assume since you wrote a handbook you like playing knights whats your fav build?

[Emperor Tippy]

Convince your DM to allow feat retraining so that you can pick up Martial Study so that you can then take Martial Stance: Martial Spirit before retraining Martial Study back to Improved Initiative. Heals you (or an ally within 30 feet) 2 points of damage every time you make a successful melee attack.

Evasive Reflexes might be a better choice than Combat Reflexes (allowed to make a 5 foot step whenever you could make an AoO, can replace Combat Reflexes as a prerequisite); crucially this does not use up your AoO so you can theoretically end up with a lot of five foot steps moving your around the battlefield.

[Gwendol]

You will still be able to do AoO's when flatfooted, and one more AoO is double what you do now. You have good stats, but perhaps you could re-arrange the numbers a little? Dex 13 gives you combat reflexes, while Int 13 allows combat expertise, and the very good feat improved trip. Ideally you will want both.

Sadly, dwarves don't make very good knights what with their penalty to CHA. That hurts your test of mettle DC. Also, they can't make use of the armor mastery, since they have a similar racial ability.
I recommend looking at the crusader class too, it will make for a strong and fun character!
Finally, will you be using a mount at all?

[chrisgray86]

You will still be able to do AoO's when flatfooted, and one more AoO is double what you do now. You have good stats, but perhaps you could re-arrange the numbers a little? Dex 13 gives you combat reflexes, while Int 13 allows combat expertise, and the very good feat improved trip. Ideally you will want both.

Sadly, dwarves don't make very good knights what with their penalty to CHA. That hurts your test of mettle DC. Also, they can't make use of the armor mastery, since they have a similar racial ability.
I recommend looking at the crusader class too, it will make for a strong and fun character!
Finally, will you be using a mount at all?

No probably no mount

[dascarletm]

Convince your DM to allow feat retraining so that you can pick up Martial Study so that you can then take Martial Stance: Martial Spirit before retraining Martial Study back to Improved Initiative. Heals you (or an ally within 30 feet) 2 points of damage every time you make a successful melee attack.


Wait, wouldn't that feat be un-re-trainable since losing it makes you lose your prerequisites for martial stance?

[Emperor Tippy]

Wait, wouldn't that feat be un-re-trainable since losing it makes you lose your prerequisites for martial stance?

Martial Stance self qualifies. It's prerequisite is that you know one maneuver from the discipline in question. The Stance it provides you with meets that qualification. You can't take Martial Stance without already knowing a maneuver but once you have Martial Stance you can loose all other maneuvers and still meet the prerequisites for Martial Stance.

[dascarletm]

Martial Stance self qualifies. It's prerequisite is that you know one maneuver from the discipline in question. The Stance it provides you with meets that qualification. You can't take Martial Stance without already knowing a maneuver but once you have Martial Stance you can loose all other maneuvers and still meet the prerequisites for Martial Stance.

Interesting.

[Thurbane]

I like the feel of a Dwarf Knight, and contemplated playing one myself recently, but there is a bit of redundancy in the Dwarf racial ability to move at full speed in heavy armor, and the Knight's class ability that eventually does the same.

Apart from moving normally in heavy armor, Dragonborn wipes away most (all?) of the Dwarfs neat racial abilities.

[Person_Man]

Yeah I have been through your guide its great. I assume since you wrote a handbook you like playing knights whats your fav build?

My preferred low level build is Sir Didymus - Strongheart Halfling, mounted on a medium mount, with Mounted Combat->Ride by Attack->Spirited Charge + Combat Reflexes and Stand Still (when you can get them). Test of Mettle, use a lance two handed [3* (3d6 + 1.5*Str + misc) damage], move through and past enemies when possible, forcing them to constantly run towards you and through your threatened area. When that's not possible, team up with an ally at a choke point and create a bottleneck. Caltrops, nets, multiple allies with reach weapons, hitting enemies and then moving away from them to the next bottleneck.

Mid-level, I like some variant of the Red Knight - Knight 5/Fighter 1/Tactical Soldier 2. Start with the same Sir Didymus build, then head into Fighter and Tactical Soldier. Read the Shield Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=123630), and trade away your Fighter Tower Shield proficiency for a Riding Shield or Gnome Battle Cloak. Same basic tactics and build as Sir Didymus, but with the addition of the ability to flank from any space (which means you can always flank, thanks to your mount) which is very helpful with a Rogue in the party, and Sidestep, which is very useful for keeping enemies away.

If you're seriously going to make it to ECL 9+, I would suggest Saint Bertold (Apostle of Peace - which requires that your party be ok with your Vows) or Sir Smack (basic King of Smack variant).

Just remember, no matter what you do, the Knight is not about damage dealing. Power Attack combos are nice, but secondary. It's just not what you're good at. You are about melee battlefield control. You protect your allies, and whittle your enemies down one at a time.

[Kevingway]

Martial Stance self qualifies. It's prerequisite is that you know one maneuver from the discipline in question. The Stance it provides you with meets that qualification. You can't take Martial Stance without already knowing a maneuver but once you have Martial Stance you can loose all other maneuvers and still meet the prerequisites for Martial Stance.

Um, what? A Stance isn't a Maneuver. I don't know how it can possibly self-qualify when it only grants you a Stance, not a Maneuver, for permanent use. Yes, the text actually, for some reason, calls this Stance a Maneuver, but as far as I'm concerned it's a typo, as the rest of the book clearly distinguishes one from the other, as does the need for multiple feats. Stances aren't carried out in the same way as Maneuvers are, and I see no reason why this would be a self-qualifying feat if your argument is for that bit of wording there.

I may not be as familiar with ToB as I should be, but I don't think I've ever seen once in my multiple readings of the book where a Stance was considered a Maneuver.

[GreenETC]

I may not be as familiar with ToB as I should be, but I don't think I've ever seen once in my multiple readings of the book where a Stance was considered a Maneuver.

In addition to meeting the class and level requirements before you can learn a maneuver, you must meet a certain set of
requirements to be able to choose that maneuver as one you know. Stances are considered maneuvers for the purpose of meeting a prerequisite to learn a new maneuver.
Edit: I forgot it was said so much earlier in the book, and much more clearly.

[Emperor Tippy]

Um, what? A Stance isn't a Maneuver. I don't know how it can possibly self-qualify when it only grants you a Stance, not a Maneuver, for permanent use. Yes, the text actually, for some reason, calls this Stance a Maneuver, but as far as I'm concerned it's a typo, as the rest of the book clearly distinguishes one from the other, as does the need for multiple feats. Stances aren't carried out in the same way as Maneuvers are, and I see no reason why this would be a self-qualifying feat if your argument is for that bit of wording there.

I may not be as familiar with ToB as I should be, but I don't think I've ever seen once in my multiple readings of the book where a Stance was considered a Maneuver.


Stance: A stance is a special type of maneuver.

Stances are maneuvers per the rules of Tome of Battle.

[Kevingway]

So with all the sections and subsections, special labels, rule sets, etc., they have to force in a couple of lines to clarify that they actually don't intend to distinguish them apart from each other. Oh Wizards...

[Feint's End]

Stances are maneuvers per the rules of Tome of Battle.

Not only this but also


Stances are considered maneuvers for the purpose of meeting a prerequisite to learn a new maneuver.

ToB on Prerequisites

[Samalpetey]

Not only this but also



ToB on Prerequisites

Lil nitpick, but it says that stances count for learning new maneuvers, so it wouldn't self-qualify based just on that. But as was quoted earlier, they count anyway since they are maneuvers.

[Deepbluediver]

Martial Stance self qualifies. It's prerequisite is that you know one maneuver from the discipline in question. The Stance it provides you with meets that qualification. You can't take Martial Stance without already knowing a maneuver but once you have Martial Stance you can loose all other maneuvers and still meet the prerequisites for Martial Stance.

That sounds a little cheesey, but I'm not going to complain since I didn't really like the way the feat was designed in the first place. Good to know for RAW games, though. :smallbiggrin: