[PF] Planning on Rise of the Runelords as my next campaign.

[Renegade Paladin]

At long last my group is nearing the end of the Tearing of the Weave/Empire of Shade (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/FR1_Cormyr:The_Tearing_of_the_Weave) campaign, which I've been DMing for years (with interruptions caused by school, moving, etc). The group's other DMs have switched over to Pathfinder by now, and I plan to follow, and the local shop has the anniversary hardcover edition of Rise of the Runelords sitting on the shelf. I've been happy with some of Paizo's adventure paths as a player, and would like to try one as a DM. I'm somewhat cautious because from reading the introduction it seems I'd have to buy three more books for it (Runelords itself and both Bestiary 2 and 3; I already have the APG) instead of one, but I'm fairly certain it could be worth it. (Yes, I know it's all on the PFSRD, but I don't game with a computer in front of me and like my reading in dead tree format anyway. :smallsmile:)

Has anyone run or played in it before that has any tips for running this particular adventure path? In particular I'm looking for especially difficult encounters, surprising situations that might not be apparent on a first read-through, any classes or class abilities that may be especially detrimental not to have (presently the Tearing of the Weave party is working almost entirely without flight, which has been hugely inconvenient for them and is about to get more so) or conversely anything that might make it too much of a breeze (the group's power gamer has already announced that he wants to play a gunslinger, which I know little about; I rarely have to deal with high level wizard shenanigans because those who know how don't think it's fun anymore), and any particular unusual or obscure rules or systems the NPCs commonly use that I should familiarize myself with. Input on anything related is welcome, though. :smallsmile:

[Scowling Dragon]

Well this is kinda obvious but hey, is worth repeating:

Read through the whole thing to avoid . "UH UH UH.....Let me find the page!" Moments. Its quite a fun read on its own. Its the first Adventure path but one of the best (Except for the slightly monotonous section with the Stone Giants).

Some sections of the game require the crew to return to the starting town, and allot of the times it can be somewhat hard (Without railroading) to get the PCs there (Why do we need to go back to that rundown rut?). This is a good game to use the Downtime building.....building rules from Ultimate Campaign, giving motivation for PCs to check up on Sandpoint without RailRoading.

Also No Gunslinger. They are filled with Cheese and Macaroni. The ability to bypass 90% of AC without a limit on the uses of the ability (Which is what Firearms do) is bad enough. But the Gunslinger actively, and proudly removes all the Drawbacks of Guns, whilst at the same time being very cheesey ("Dexterity to damage? Why id LOVE too"). Gunslinger Archetypes are like that but even worse ("A fighters Weapon training, PLUS Dexterity damage, PLUS focusing my Grit powers on better ones? Your too kind")

If he wants guns, slap the Gunslinger out of his hands and proudly hand him the Ranger or the Fighter.

[Renegade Paladin]

I'm pretty sure he wants to see what kind of numbers he can squeeze out of yet another build. I tend to be pretty sandboxy with what players can do with their characters when I run games, and his last two have been dsenchuk's swashbuckler rebuild/duelist/carmendine monk/warblade/eternal blade with a stupid high Intelligence score, getting his Int to AC three times, to damage twice, and the character's just generally a pain in the rear to hit for almost everything in the Tearing of the Weave arc (though I did kill him once, early on before the build kicked in, and the winter wolf single combat in the second book actually made him work for it) and before that the most thorough breaking of the 3.5 arcane archer that I have ever seen, who one-rounded a pair of mature adult red dragons at level 15. The only saving grace for the campaign with his current character is that he can't fly (though he can jump a ludicrous distance).

I usually don't begrudge him doing this, but I've got a new player in who he helped build Clericzilla, and she's frustrated because by the time she's done buffing up he's wrecked the encounter. (I actually encouraged her to take DMM: Quicken just so she could be relevant, which I never thought I'd have to do.) I don't want to just out and out ban gunslinger if there's another way around it, but I'll study the class, and if that's the consensus opinion in this thread and elsewhere I'll consider it.

[Scowling Dragon]

So you want a character that rips through enemies with no effort? Alright then.

Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=271907) is a good thread about how they are quite easily abused.

If you want the players to just plough through the campaign then thats all fine and dandy. But they are likely to miss out on allot of creative elements.

[Renegade Paladin]

Frankly, I don't want that. He doesn't want it either; when he DMs (and has time to write his own material) the opposition is optimized to pretty much the same degree, and you adapt or die. Building an optimized character without the usual spellcaster tricks is the fun for him, but not really for the other people in the group. Since gunslinger is apparently usual tricks, though, perhaps I can talk him out of it, especially since there are other players involved who aren't just disinclined to put in the effort to keep up, but are new enough that they actually can't. To his credit, though, they're also great characters in the literary and roleplaying sense, not just mechanical balls of numbers that kill everything and then sit in the back when the fight's over.

At any rate, that isn't what I intended the thread to be about. Assuming there's not an uber-optimized gunslinger running about busting caps into everything in sight, anything else? Rest assured, I'll give the adventure a thorough reading, but my group is plagued by long play interruptions with the advent of children to three of the members, so I'm liable to have forgotten things between sessions.

[Scowling Dragon]

All I have to say that its allot of fun. In terms of very difficult battles I wouldn't say there is anything THAT bad (Except for the Final boss, but that is to be expected). But there are a few "I need to get the characters here and if they miss this piece of data they can get screwed" moments.

Otherwise I would also suggest re-fluffing the virtues.

The 7 (Divination could take a hike) Ancient schools of Thassilon where based on 7 virtues, but then got corrupted into what was later called the 7 sins.

The issue is that the 7 virtues where opposites (Except for love), and it doesn't make sense for opposites cause the school doesn't make sense the opposite way:

The School of Greed is Transmutation (Duh. Make more money for yourself) but originally it was Charity. This can sort of make sense (Money for poor people) but how can Zeal be Conjuration (A school about summoning stuff to do stuff for you). It makes sense as Sloth, but no as anything else.

I suggest changing the names a Bit to reflect the extreme versions of the Virtues:

Lust used to be Love. Not that there is anything wrong with lust, but the way the Thassilonians corrupted it there is.

It makes sense that what began as a way of agreement and peace (Charm person to get the people to get along, long enough not to slay each other), eventually turned into basic primal lust.

Greed used to be Drive. Driving oneself to get more stuff is human nature, and wanting self improvement is all fine and dandy until you go too far.

Sloth used to be Rest. All work and no play can drive a person mad, and a good rest is important to discovery. But sloth is sloth is sloth.

Gluttony was Taste. Trying out new things and indulging in the new or sometimes risky is important to taste. But glottony is the extreme.

Avarice was Observation: One needs to compare himself to others too better themselves, but too much turns too Avarice.

Pride was Confidence. Obvious is obvious.

Wrath was retribution. Obvious is obvious.

Also:

I suggest NEVER having the bad guys call their powers "Greed Based".

No bad guy wants to admit that they are greedy jerks.

[Kudaku]

Hopefully I don't need to say this, but the following post will probably contain RotRL spoilers.


That out of the way, congratulations on picking a really fun adventure path! I'm currently running RotRL for two different parties. One is level 9 (magus, inquisitor, wizard, paladin, gunslinger) and just cleared out Fort Rannick and the other (inquisitor, monk, cleric) is level 1 and on the way to the Glassworks.

The first and best tip I can give you is to check out the Paizo forum on the RotRL AP, found here (http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/adventurePath/runelords). Especially this thread (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2i3wa&page=12?Community-Created-Stuff#600) is useful, it has an extensive list of custom community made props, tokens, maps, whatever you could want to use.

The second tip is to make sure that your adventurers have reasons to care about Sandpoint - a great deal of the driving force in this AP is to protect the town and and be generally nice guys. It can work with a more mercenary group, but there will be times when a selfish group can find it hard to find motivation to keep going - like when they found out that Sandpoint will be raided by giants or when they realize just how large Jorgenfist's army is. Try to have your party make connections to Sandpoint and its npcs.

As for especially hard encounters... Eh. Some are harder than others, but I wouldn't call anything truly hard. When I started the AP I warned my players that this is considered one of the harder APs and that they should proceed accordingly - they bought a few scrolls and wands and actively expend resources to prepare for whatever they will encounter in the future. They have had a few tricky moments, but overall it has worked out well.

Elyrium can be tricky if the party doesn't do their research, but mainly because the combination of at-will invisibility, damage reduction and quick healing. Her damage output is minuscule. I'd maybe emphasize slightly that there is a _quasit_ mentioned in Tsuto's journal, if you don't have a party that's used to doing their homework. My group didn't do their homework and pretty much got humiliated on their first attempt. The second go round they came with flour and nets, and after finally getting Erylium on the ground the paladin smite-grappled her to oblivion.

The bridge in Thistletop is downright nasty if your party are not used to traps, but the way it's described I think most parties will be very cautious indeed. Still, 4d6 lethal +2d3 nonlethal is potentially a lot of damage for a 3rd level party that's already been banged up a bit. I wouldn't really change the trap itself, but maybe take pains to emphasize that it's a goblin-made bridge. Any PC with a lick of survival instinct will be extremely reluctant to walk on it.

I found Nualia a little underwhelming as the "villain" of Burnt Offerings, so I rebuilt her as a 6th level anti-paladin. Since the paladin in my campaign was also an aasimar that grew up in Sandpoint (but with loving parents instead of an abusive foster father) I played it off as a bit of a "what if"-moment. Please note that the anti-paladin's aura of fear combines terrifyingly well (pun intended) with the yeth hound howl, so if your party rolls bad on those will saves that could very well be a potential TPK - I'd cut the dog if you were worried about this.

Oh, don't forget to play up Foxglove occasionally stealing objects from his target of obsession - if you start this early enough you can keep the player unnerved for some time. A hint of grave stench here and a strange footprint there can really freak out the player if you play it right. Foxglove's obsession was Envy on the wizard in my campaign, and the moment where he found his "collection" of items in the bottom of Misgivings was priceless.

The mill of the Seven can get ugly if the party decides to wait till midnight on Oathday and fights the entire cult at once (as my party did). On the flip side, Ironbriar has a terrible build for a 'villain' (notice a trend here?), I rebuilt him as a straight Inquisitor, and he played that class out very well indeed. My party captured Orik and Lyrie and had them sent to Magnimar for imprisonment, where Ironbriar promptly found them innocent on a technicality - the party knows they're loose but haven't tracked them down yet. I'm thinking of making Orik join the order of the Black Arrow, while Lyrie I plan on keeping on hand for the moment - I can always throw her in when I need to add a little extra oomph to an encounter.

The gunslinger might struggle a little treasure-wise - as far as I know there's not a single gun in the entire AP. If you're feeling nice you could probably tweak some of the loot to make it a bit more Gunslinger-friendly.

Finally, make sure you read the Tactics as described for each major fight before you start it. I found myself repeatedly making encounters harder than they were meant to be because I tend to play my monsters smart, or at the very least somewhat capable - the AP doesn't always account for that.

[Renegade Paladin]

Well, the AP's been updated for Pathfinder in the anniversary hardcover edition (which is what's in stock), so it may well have gunslinger-appropriate treasure. If he does go with it, I can use treasure to control his damage output if need be (he certainly won't be rocking triple WBL by 10th level like the gunslinger discussed in the thread Scowling Dragon linked).

I mentioned to him that concerns were raised, but he laughed it off and said it was no more damage than an archer fighter build. The archer has to hit actual AC, though, so I'll crunch numbers with him when we actually have time. My main concern is that mid-arc seems to feature giants, which high damage hitting touch AC could eviscerate with ease since they have horrible touch AC as a rule.

Ultimate Campaign is on my to-get list, so I'll see if I can induce the PCs to set up shop in Sandpoint to give them reasons to go back.

Thus far the only PCs I know I have are a cleric and the prospective gunslinger. The start of this is still a couple of months away; not going to switch over until the Tearing of the Weave arc is finished. I'll try to make sure they have someone with trapfinding and pay attention to using it.