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Archpaladin Zousha
2013-06-10, 07:07 PM
At the moment I have completely fallen in love with Fantasy Flight's D&D setting, Midnight. I like to describe it as the setting that asks the question "What if Sauron got the One Ring and proceeded to curb-stomp Middle-Earth with it?"

I'm in the process of introducing the setting and its concepts to some friends of mine, and I really want to play in it. But I'm unsure as to how best to explain things to people who have mostly played traditional D&D. Midnight has a very different feel. It's grittier, it's darker, and hope is hard to come by, but hope IS there. It's not as fatalistic as something like Warhammer 40K, but I'm not sure how best to communicate that.

Plus, I'm not sure how best to set up a kind of Midnight campaign. I want a story that culminates in the PCs making a significant blow to the Shadow, which the books themselves state IS possible, though a long-shot.

Also, I'm not sure how to judge the cultures. Are the Dorns Scottish? Vikings? Are the Sarcosans Arab? Indian? Macedonian? How do dwarves view their beards? Would they be okay with shaving them off in an attempt to disguise themselves as short humans to infiltrate human settlements?

I've got both the first and second edition corebooks, and the Minions of the Shadow bestiary supplement. I know some people may remember my last thread asking for help to understand a setting, and I want to assure you that this time I'm very open to ideas. I love this setting. Love it to pieces. I just need help understanding it better so I can describe it to people and help get a game of it set up to communicate the right feel and style to them. I suppose it's less about understanding Midnight myself and more about being able to articulate it well to others who may be used to things like Eberron or Pathfinder.

Grinner
2013-06-10, 07:12 PM
"The bad guy has taken over the world. You've got a sword, a bow, and the barest understanding of magic. Watchoo gonna do, hero?"

Mr Beer
2013-06-10, 07:53 PM
" I'm not sure how best to communicate that."

Have them read the first 2 paragraphs you wrote, that communicated the setting adequately to me...it should work for your players too.

Archpaladin Zousha
2013-06-10, 08:21 PM
Yes, but once the discussion becomes more concrete as to the nature of the setting, the culture and behavior of characters, and trying to explain "how to play" in a sense, is where it gets hard. Midnight's not the kind of setting where you can kick down the door of the dungeon and stuff.

To put it at its simplest, how do I respond to a player who asks "How can my character be badass in this setting? You're saying I'm supposed to play like a wimpy scaredy-cat!"

TheStranger
2013-06-10, 08:54 PM
To put it at its simplest, how do I respond to a player who asks "How can my character be badass in this setting? You're saying I'm supposed to play like a wimpy scaredy-cat!"

I don't know the setting, but from your description, it sounds like the characters explicitly aren't supposed to be badass in a conventional sense. Or they might be compared to the average person, but not compared to the Enemy. They can't go into any situation expecting to kick down the door and tear through whatever's inside. And they're probably never going to kick Sauron's ass and lift the shadow from the land. They're going to pick their fights, be smart about things, and make things better in small, but noticeable ways.

It sounds like a setting where victory means, "for today, this child still has a mother," rather than, "the people are free." It's a different playstyle, and I don't know that it's right for every group. If your players really just want to kick down the door, they might not enjoy the setting as much as you do.

Also, a setting like this is just screaming for the E6 rules. Once you start running around at high levels, it gets harder and harder to justify the status quo being so dismal.

Grinner
2013-06-10, 09:04 PM
It sounds like a setting where victory means, "for today, this child still has a mother," rather than, "the people are free." It's a different playstyle, and I don't know that it's right for every group. If your players really just want to kick down the door, they might not enjoy the setting as much as you do.

Also, a setting like this is just screaming for the E6 rules. Once you start running around at high levels, it gets harder and harder to justify the status quo being so dismal.

/thread

Midnight, to me at least, is all about making that stand for morality. In standard fantasy settings, it's (relatively) easy to be the good guy. There are entire cities of good guys. Being the good guy means just slaughtering anything that even glowers menacingly at the peasants. In Midnight, being the good guy is an actual risk. Anyone can sell out, but only heroes will stand against the odds.

Archpaladin Zousha
2013-06-10, 09:10 PM
On the other hand, there ARE epic level characters in this setting, both the Witch-Queen of the Elves (think Galadriel on magic-sterioids) on the side of good and the four Night Kings that lead the forces of Shadow (an invincible warrior and general, a lich priest, a corrupted elf sorcerer and a mind-slaved dragon). One book even outlines ways you can beat them (they explicitly state that taking any one of them in combat would be suicide, but each has weaknesses canny PCs could exploit to at least temporarily take them out of the action for a while, a few years at least).

They state that the PCs are meant to become heroes, champions of the world that, while they won't be able to free the world from the Shadow, will strike a significant blow to his operations.

Starbuck_II
2013-06-10, 11:34 PM
Which campaign setting are you using?
Looking at rules/mechanics:
Low magic items
Conjuration summoning creates real creatures unlike 3.5.
Divine (Godly) magic is only for evil dudes
Innate casters (similar to 3.5 Warlocks) are a better way
Then there is Channelling, feat based magic

Humans come in varieties:
+2 Str, -2 Int (other unique stuff too)
+2 Cha/Int, -2 Wis (other unique stuff too)
+2 to one and -2 to another (other unique stuff too like 2 bonus feats instead one)
Dwarfs are +2 Con/-2 Cha (but NA too)
Elf +2 Dex, -2 Con
Gnomes +4 Cha, -2 Str (+4 to all social skills)
Halfling +2 Dex, -2 Str (versions such Rider halflings that get bonus to riding or Agarian ones) Start with Innate magic feat.
Coupler 1/2 races like Elflings, Dwarf Gnomes, etc


Everyone naturally learns spell-like abilities (for some reason it bans Bard, Monks, Paladins as classes?) through Paths as you level you get free stuff like Rage (even if not a Barbarian), etc

You can even bypass the rules restrictions on teleport with a Shadowdancer-esque path called Shadow Walker.

They replace Monk with a class called Defender (why not just let you play Monk with those changes?) like instead of Increasing damage die you add 1d6 to it every 6 levels. Gains Stunning Fist with Str DC modifier use level +3 (better than monk). Even gave them Tier abilities they can choose like Rogues get special abilities in 3.5 at 10th level (they choose first at 2nd level).

Fighters gave skill points and new class features.
Rangers renamed
Channeler class.

Archpaladin Zousha
2013-06-11, 12:23 AM
Uh, that's the one, yeah. Why do you ask?

Anyway, the thing is, one of the players is of the mindset of "I don't need to hide, I'll just be such a good warrior that I'll be able to take down anyone who comes after me." When I told him how loot worked in Midnight and how much hot water weapons can land you in, especially because some legates have their names engraved into their own weapons, which means if someone recognized the name he'd be executed for murder and theft of a legate's property, he replied:

Well that just gives me an idea for a trophy room full of weapon racks for Legate weapons I take from my victims.

endoperez
2013-06-11, 04:34 AM
Uh, that's the one, yeah. Why do you ask?

Anyway, the thing is, one of the players is of the mindset of "I don't need to hide, I'll just be such a good warrior that I'll be able to take down anyone who comes after me." When I told him how loot worked in Midnight and how much hot water weapons can land you in, especially because some legates have their names engraved into their own weapons, which means if someone recognized the name he'd be executed for murder and theft of a legate's property, he replied:

Is he a fan of Doctor Doom? Has he ever complained about how Doom wouldn't lose to Squirrel Girl if there wasn't stupid plot armor? That angle might work, but only in specific cases.


Maybe look at some spy stuff, some story where the protagonist can't oppose his enemies directly and is all about stealth and being the underdog, constantly on the run.

Grinner
2013-06-11, 08:53 AM
Uh, that's the one, yeah. Why do you ask?

Anyway, the thing is, one of the players is of the mindset of "I don't need to hide, I'll just be such a good warrior that I'll be able to take down anyone who comes after me." When I told him how loot worked in Midnight and how much hot water weapons can land you in, especially because some legates have their names engraved into their own weapons, which means if someone recognized the name he'd be executed for murder and theft of a legate's property, he replied:

Are the other players generally of the same mindset? If so, you may just want to scrap the idea entirely.

But, if they are getting it and it's just that one player, then let him do that. Eventually, he'll become so infamous that the Shadow will begin a smear campaign. Then, when a villager outs him, send in many, many legates. If he's smart, he'll realize he's outmanned and flee. But don't let him escape so easily. Have legates hound him. Have him on the run.

Either that, or he'll die and make a new character or something. Either way, ensure that the other PCs come out relatively unscathed.

Edit: Also, I think E6 is a great idea for this game. The epic characters aren't really an issue, as they're exceptions to the case. If you must, just stat them out with a *ton* of static bonus-granting feats.

TheStranger
2013-06-11, 10:49 AM
Anyway, the thing is, one of the players is of the mindset of "I don't need to hide, I'll just be such a good warrior that I'll be able to take down anyone who comes after me." When I told him how loot worked in Midnight and how much hot water weapons can land you in, especially because some legates have their names engraved into their own weapons, which means if someone recognized the name he'd be executed for murder and theft of a legate's property, he replied:

The fact that he's thinking this way is only half the problem. The other half comes if/when he's successful. Is your player a decent optimizer? If so, there's a non-trivial chance that the party will win some fights you didn't expect them to, which won't exactly encourage him to keep a low profile next time. Or he'll get the whole party killed by the overwhelming force you send at him.

Either way, it sounds like he just doesn't want to play the game you want to run. I don't think it's a problem of you not communicating it well, he just doesn't want to play by the "rules" of the setting. If he doesn't change his mind, it sounds like either you need to shelf the idea of playing a Midnight game, or he needs to sit this one out.

Archpaladin Zousha
2013-06-11, 04:46 PM
He IS coming around. He's still enamored with the idea of gathering a pile of legate weapons to prove his badass legend to rally the dwarven people, though. He's also said "Relax, I know how to play a low-magic game."

Archpaladin Zousha
2013-06-13, 12:39 AM
He's expressed more interest, but he wants to use the Binder class. Theoretically it could work if the fluff is tweaked so Vestiges are Trapped spirits rather than ancient spirits from outside reality. I'm not sure how well it meshes with Midnight's other features like the spell point system and stuff.