Warblade Weapons

[Snownine]

I have been looking at the warblade class and it looks like it would be a fun melee class to play. I have read about it on these forums and it seems that some people suggest using a spiked chain? Even though it comes with so many recommendations I am having a hard time picking it from a purely fluff standpoint, I think the spiked chain is lame. What are some of your opinions? Would I do well to just go with the spiked chain or would a greatsword be good as well?

[Tvtyrant]

Spike chain nets you reach and the ability to hit next to you at the same time, and allows you to make trip attempts. A greatsword just does damage. So all of the manuvs and stances that allow you to trip/throw enemies require you to use your hands with the greatsword, and you will not have reach for your attacks of opportunity.

So a greatsword is in fact not going to be as good. It does damage, and that is about it. However the Warblade is good enough you shouldn't be hurt too much by it, you just are not going to be as optimized/efficient.

[eggynack]

I've always been a fan of the guisarme. It doesn't hit adjacent squares, but it's pretty good if you want a reach weapon with tripping capabilities. It's kind of a worse spiked chain, except it doesn't cost a feat.

[Darrin]

I have been looking at the warblade class and it looks like it would be a fun melee class to play. I have read about it on these forums and it seems that some people suggest using a spiked chain?

Spiked chain is one of the more worthwhile exotics, but I think greatsword is going to be recomended more often unless you're trying to do something with a lockdown or tripping build, and even then you're probably better off with guisarme + spiked gauntlet/armor spikes/unarmed strike.

Warblades don't get a lot of feats, and the bonus feats they do get aren't from a very good list. I'd recommend against EWP unless you had a specific concept in mind.

If you want something similar to the spiked chain but martial, check out the Duom in Dragon Compendium. It's a polearm with reach, but you can attack adjacent targets as well. There's a -2 penalty for attacking an additional target, but it doesn't apply if you only have one target.

[BowStreetRunner]

One of the nicest things about Warblade is that you get Weapon Aptitude with the first level, so why choose one weapon? Take Exotic Weapon Proficiency, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization and whichever other weapon-specific feats you want. Find a cool weapon you want to try out? Spend an hour and adjust your feats and you are good to go.

[Kane0]

Taking up EWP is more useful for the Warblade than any other class because he can change the weapon using his Weapon Aptitude ability. My current Warblade uses a Bastard Sword (mostly because of his focus on Iron Heart) but if he found a kickass Dwarven Waraxe lying around he could switch to using that with no cost other than an hour of training in the morning.

As far as optimization is concerned you'd be better off getting other feats with your limited choices as exotic weapons usually only give you a few points of extra damage or some other ability that you may or may not use that much. The exception is that if you are in a campaign where you cannot easily pick and choose your arsenal, so EWP (any one) becomes a huge advantage in terms of flexibility.

[Krazzman]

Spike chain allows you to make trip attempts. A greatsword just does damage. So all of the manuvs and stances that allow you to trip/throw enemies require you to use your hands with the greatsword, and you will not have reach for your attacks of opportunity.


What? Did I miss something? I thought the "TRIP" ability just enabled you to drop the weapon instead of being tripped yourself if you fail...?

@Spiked Chain.
If the weapon doesn't appeal to you then don't use it. My Warblade uses a Spiked Chain because it is the Weapon of his Deity (Kossuth). But if I know I will fight something "immune" to piercing damage I can do something against it.

Any one reach weapon can, with a feat be able to strike adjacent foes (Short Hafted or something similar in PHB2).

[TuggyNE]

What? Did I miss something? I thought the "TRIP" ability just enabled you to drop the weapon instead of being tripped yourself if you fail...?

Weapons that you can trip with allow you to drop them instead of being counter-tripped, yes, but they also allow you to trip at reach. Normally, you make an unarmed melee touch attack if you're wielding a weapon that doesn't allow tripping.

[ArcturusV]

Not to mention Spiked Chain is one of those few weapons that has:

Trip Bonuses and the "you can drop" rather than being tripped during your own trip. Yeah, you could trip without it, but if you failed you fall flat on your own ass. It has Reach out to a significant distance. And unlike other Reach weapons, it also threatens adjacent squares. And, heck, you can both TWF and THW with it as needed.

It's a solid selection of weapon abilities that you're typically hard pressed to find anywhere else. I think the only one that comes close is the Kusari-Gama, but they made that a one handed light weapon, so you can't get the THW bonuses for it.

Honestly though the weapon you pick doesn't matter that much. Most of your damage comes from effects that are independent of the weapon in particular. The only things that really matter is: Can you Two Handed? ("Knights do it two-handed, hic!") Can you Two Weapon if you desire?

Reach is probably the next most important consideration, though it's not VITAL. After that you look for weapon specific bonuses. Things like "Can be used to Trip" or "Can be used to Disarm", or some of my favorites "Inflicts double damage on..."

If you wanted, you could grab anything really and be more or less as effective. Grab a Halbred. Grab a hand axe. Grab a dagger. It doesn't really matter so much other than things like the lack of Power Attacking bonuses for not having a two hander. I'd just take whatever floats your boat image wise then. If you got a problem with the Spiked Chain, go ahead and pick... I dunno, a Bec de Corbin. The only thing you're really missing out on is that random magic item loot tables almost never say "Random Bec de Corbin" as a listing. But if that's your concern you're better off going with Longswords. Dime a dozen on random loot tables. Maybe a Battleaxe. Both of them come up a lot more than Spiked Chains or Greatswords.

[Andezzar]

And, heck, you can both TWF and THW with it as needed. You cannot TWF with a spiked chain (or a kusari-gama for that matter). It is not a double weapon. At least the kusari-game however should be.


"Inflicts double damage on..."Which weapons are those?


It doesn't really matter so much other than things like the lack of Power Attacking bonuses for not having a two hander.I'm sure you know that, but just to be clear, you only cannot get a the better STR and Power Attack bonus from light weapons or weapons that cannot be wielded in two hands. For example a scimitar would get both 1 1/2 STR bonus and the two for one exchange rate on Power Attack if wielded in two hands. A rapier on the other hand would still be eligible for Power Attack damage because it is not a light weapon. It cannot be wielded in two hands so only the normal STR bonus applies.

[Darrin]

You cannot TWF with a spiked chain (or a kusari-gama for that matter). It is not a double weapon. At least the kusari-game however should be.


Spiked chain (primary) + armor spikes (offhand).
Spiked chain (primary) + unarmed strike (offhand).

Kusari-gama is a light one-handed weapon, and you could TWF with two of those if you so choose.

There's also a Cavestalker PrC in Drow of the Underdark that allows you to wield a spiked chain as a one-handed weapon. Combine with Oversize TWF and you could dual-wield a pair of spiked chains.



I'm sure you know that, but just to be clear, you only cannot get a the better STR and Power Attack bonus from light weapons or weapons that cannot be wielded in two hands.


Spiked chain (primary) + unarmed strike (offhand) can get a Power Attack bonus on both weapons. Spiked chain would get 2X, X = BAB penalty, while the unarmed strike would get 1X.

If you want double Power Attack damage on both primary and offhand, Revenant Blade 5 can do this with a double scimitar, and Exotic Weapon Master with the Uncanny Blow stunt may be able to do this with two one-handed exotic weapons.

[Vedhin]

You cannot TWF with a spiked chain (or a kusari-gama for that matter). It is not a double weapon. At least the kusari-game however should be.

Actually, the kusari-gama in Oriental Adventures is a double weapon. It's actually a bit complex and very neat though, as you can essentially change it from a double weapon to a spiked chain style reach weapon whenever you want. You can also TWF with the DMG kusari-gama; they were knocked down from one-handed to light weapons in the transition from 3.0 to 3.5 (which is completely inaccurate for how they work in reality, but useful nevertheless).

The OA kusari-gama could be a pretty good idea for a Warblade: it lets you use Power Attack with the two-handed weapon bonus, trip, disarm, TWF (good for the Tiger Claw discipline), and can be used for reach. The only real problem I can think of is that OA is 3.0, so your DM might not allow it.

But, like others have said Weapon Aptitude is nice. If you find some other weapon you like better you can shunt all your feats over to that weapon, so mistakes are affordable. It also might be worth carrying one or two other weapons that interest you, so that you can switch to them wih only an hour's downtime if you feel that what you chose originally just isn't cutting it.

[SciChronic]

Kusari-Gama: A kusari-gama is a length of chain with a maka at one end. It can be used as either a double weapon or as a reach weapon. You can fight with it as if fighting with two weapons, incurring all the normal attack penalties as if using a one-handed weapon and al ight weapon. In this case, you can only strike at an adjacent opponent.
So you can use a kusari-gama as a double weapon.

Edit: swordsage'd

Back on topic, as others have said, spiked chain is one of the better exotic weapons, and warblades can freely move around weapon specific feats. Taking the spiked chain lets you have that feat for if you ever need to move it while using a rather useful weapon that has both trip and reach properties.

That said, said if don't feel like using said spiked chain (or kusari-gama), you are under no obligation to. Trip weapons are suggested as it offers another tool to the rather extensive warblade toolbelt. Guisarme is an excellent suggestion as it has reach, and can trip, if you want, you can take the Short Haft feat to allow yourself to turn that reach weapon into a non-reach weapon with a swift action, and vise-versa. If you dont want to use a reach weapon at all, halberds fill the same role. If you don't want to use a polearm, there are many other non-reach options available, but they are less useful than the guisarme and spiked chain.

After trip weapons, two-handed weapons are really the best choice for pure damage output. If you are going to use Tiger Claw rather extensively, the maneuvers within it are well suited to TWF.

[Andezzar]

Spiked chain (primary) + armor spikes (offhand).
Spiked chain (primary) + unarmed strike (offhand).

Kusari-gama is a light one-handed weapon, and you could TWF with two of those if you so choose.

There's also a Cavestalker PrC in Drow of the Underdark that allows you to wield a spiked chain as a one-handed weapon. Combine with Oversize TWF and you could dual-wield a pair of spiked chains. Of course you can TWF with a spiked chain and another weapon. You cannot however TWF with a spiked chain alone, like you could with a Quarterstaff or a two-bladed sword.


Spiked chain (primary) + unarmed strike (offhand) can get a Power Attack bonus on both weapons. Spiked chain would get 2X, X = BAB penalty, while the unarmed strike would get 1X. I never contradicted that. A spiked chain is a two-handed weapon.

[Dayaz]

You cannot TWF with a spiked chain (or a kusari-gama for that matter). It is not a double weapon. At least the kusari-game however should be.

There was a Sword and Fist prestige class that let you use a Spiked Chain as a double weapon, but you lost the reach. I think it was called Master of Chains?

[Urpriest]

The main point to be made here is that there is almost never a "best weapon" for any given class. You make a build, and you look if that build requires a specific weapon. If it does, use that. If not, pick the weapon that fits what you're doing with it (things that can be used for combat maneuvers, things that grant reach, things with a high crit range if you've got big static bonuses to damage, things with high base damage if you don't). But generally build considerations will almost fix your weapon anyway.

[ericp65]

One of the nicest things about Warblade is that you get Weapon Aptitude with the first level, so why choose one weapon? Take Exotic Weapon Proficiency, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization and whichever other weapon-specific feats you want. Find a cool weapon you want to try out? Spend an hour and adjust your feats and you are good to go.

How can you change the weapon for which you've chosen EWP? EWP requires you to pick a single exotic weapon. I'm missing something here.

[Andezzar]

How can you change the weapon for which you've chosen EWP? EWP requires you to pick a single exotic weapon. I'm missing something here.Read the description of the weapon aptitude (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060802a&page=2) class feature. It explicitly lets you change the selected weapon after an hour of training for any feat that is limited to a single weapon. Exotic Weapon Proficiency is one such feat.

[Humble Master]

Weapon Aptitude is defiantly nice for switching around your weapons as a Warblade. That being said I can't really thik of many exotic weapons that are worth the feat aside from Spiked Chains and Bokimi-Gari (probably got the spelling wrong).

[Shining Wrath]

Not all Warblades are the same. There are five disciplines available to a WB; Diamond Mind, Iron Heart, Stone Dragon, Tiger Claw, and White Raven. You don't get enough maneuvers to use them all effectively, so you'll choose two.

If one of the two is Tiger Claw you may want to be a TWF build, as there are nice TC maneuvers that give you extra attacks for each weapon wielded. If you want to focus on Stone Dragon (not recommended) you will want the biggest weapon you can grab.

For a WB focusing on one of the other three disciplines (very likely) spiked chain is a good choice. I think it would work best with White Raven which offers maneuvers based on controlling the area around you.

If the Iron Heart Mithral Tornado / Adamantium Hurricane maneuvers hit every foe within reach as opposed to every adjacent foe then spiked chain would be essential. But they don't so it isn't. Interestingly, though, that does mean that a WB wielding a halberd who is surrounded can attack adjacent foes using MT / AH, as the maneuvers don't refer to "threatened".

[Larkas]

For most other classes, you could substitute the Spiked Chain with a Guisarme just fine: just don't take EWP and take Short Haft instead (or Dragon Compendium's Shorten Grip, which I prefer, since you can alternate between reach and non-reach without spending actions, even though you take -2 on attacks when using the weapon without reach). However, unlike other classes, Warblades can change the focus of their EWP, while Short Haft will necessarily only work on reach weapons (though on any of them). That might be more important in your book.

[ericp65]

Read the description of the weapon aptitude (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060802a&page=2) class feature. It explicitly lets you change the selected weapon after an hour of training for any feat that is limited to a single weapon. Exotic Weapon Proficiency is one such feat.

That's the part I was missing. I recalled only that weapon aptitude gives you proficiency in the listed weapons. Thanks!

[ArcturusV]

Yeah, goobered up on the Spiked Chain being a double weapon, mostly because it's sandwiched in the same category space as all the other exotic double weapons, and the art for it is clearly a "double weapon" sort of thing.

But the general point is still a pretty valid view I think. The weapon doesn't matter so much.

As for the double damage thing? I was thinking about things like Lances, which inflict double damage on a charge. Or several pole arms which inflict double damage against charging enemies (Oh, that Tiger is gonna try to Pounce me? Well I ready action, set against the charge, when it comes, I reach smack it with a doubled damage power attack smite of doom!). I think there's a few others out there but I can't recall them off the top of my head.

[Sir_Thaddeus]

Honestly, the maneuvers you get from Warblade almost make the weapon you use a moot point. Pick one that looks cool and works decently with feats. Greatsword is a good choice; if you want to trip, Heavy Flail is good; if you want reach, Glaive; reach and trip, Guisarme (I think that's what it's called). Maneuvers will typically give you options beyond what your weapon has and deal damage beyond what your weapon does. Two-handed for Power Attack is a good start (or one-handed that can be wielded in both hands); after that, whatever looks cool. Also remember that your Weapon Aptitude means you don't have to specialize. Weapon's not working? Pick up a different one.

Honestly, there's enough good martial weapons that I wouldn't really bother with Exotic.

[BowStreetRunner]

The real key to Weapon Aptitude in many campaigns is that when you come across that weapon in the latest treasure horde with all the amazing enhancements, you aren't forced to sell it just because it doesn't match up with your weapon feats. Going against a bunch of fire creatures? Go ahead and change up to great-sword specialization and pull out your Frostbrand. Uh oh, now you have to face some golems? No problem, you can use that Adamantine Warhammer you've been hanging onto.

[TuggyNE]

Which weapons are those?

Lance does double damage … on a charge when mounted.