What should the Order's tactics be here?

[ti'esar]

So I was wondering: what, exactly, would be the best moves for the Order to make here? They're in a pretty bad situation: outnumbered (counting the fiends), with no real casters (although Elan seems to now be pulling his weight in that department), and, as suggested by the illusion, Belkar is basically a walking dead man.

On the other hand, Malack and Durkon have used most or all of their high-level spells, and Zz'dtri also seems to have fired most of his big guns. The Order also has the possible advantage of surprise, and Roy has his anti-undead sword. The LG is also in a pretty dysfunctional state right now.

But I'm just thinking casually here. What are your thoughts?

[Lord Ensifer]

Honestly, the Order is pretty much screwed in a fair fight; I'd say their best shot is to hide behind that illusionary wall until the LG is weakened by one of Girard's illusions, and then sneak attack (literally and figuratively) the guild as best they can.

[EmperorSarda]

Going off what Lord Ensifer said, they need to wait for the Linear Guild to begin crossing the trapped line.

Elan should use Major Image to have it look like the Order is charging from where the Linear Guild sprang from, Haley takes sneak attack shots against Z, Belkar... well Belkar provides distraction while Roy charges.

[Obscure Blade]

Wait until Nale has someone cross the line to see what happens; my guess is this probably results in a fiend getting zapped. Then when they aren't looking Roy can try to charge up and by surprise shove a second Guild member across the line, taking another out. That would leave them...still outmatched, but by a somewhat smaller margin.

[zimmerwald1915]

Wait until Nale has someone cross the line to see what happens; my guess is this probably results in a fiend getting zapped.
An aside: if Nale is going to do this he had better choose Durkon's devil over Zz'dtri's daemon.

[Bulldog Psion]

Wait until Nale has someone cross the line to see what happens; my guess is this probably results in a fiend getting zapped. Then when they aren't looking Roy can try to charge up and by surprise shove a second Guild member across the line, taking another out. That would leave them...still outmatched, but by a somewhat smaller margin.

Yes, a bullrush across the line might be a good tactic. Assuming, of course, that the line is indeed a trap.

[Dire Moose]

I'd have Elan add a few more illusions to make it look like there is no line.

If the Linear Guild doesn't know there's a trap, they're more likely to all get zapped rather than having one "guinea pig" take it for them

[Fish]

The Linear Guild has no decent rogue to check for traps. It has Nale, but ... pfff. Is he going to spot a trap like Haley would?

[Copperdragon]

The Linear Guild has no decent rogue to check for traps. It has Nale, but ... pfff. Is he going to spot a trap like Haley would?

I doubt that, his Rogue-class is way too muddled up - and I also doubt he focussed on detecting traps. We know he had Sabine for that.

[Dire Moose]

An obvious line on the floor is not going to require a Search check, though.

[SaintRidley]

You know, Roy's anti-caster feat might actually come in pretty handy, not against Xykon here, but against Malack. Malack's probably got a small enough total HP that Roy could insta-gas him, leaving Malack pretty ineffectual.

[Obscure Blade]

Yes, a bullrush across the line might be a good tactic. Assuming, of course, that the line is indeed a trap.Well, that's one reason why they should wait behind the illusion; to see if it is.

[Sky_Schemer]

An obvious line on the floor is not going to require a Search check, though.

No, but that's not the same as equating it with a trap, nor is it the same as knowing what kind of trap (if he even gets that far).

[Sky_Schemer]

Yes, a bullrush across the line might be a good tactic. Assuming, of course, that the line is indeed a trap.

Agreed. I see this as a realistic prediction for #893. The question is, who to bullrush? I'd put my money on Z as he is the bigger threat. Assuming Belkar told everyone about Durkon's battle with Malack, Roy knows that Durkon and Malack have gone through their higher-level spells while Z is still an unknown. It also leaves Malack on this side of the line where Roy's sword can do it's thing.

[thereaper]

Epileptic tree ahead:

The line is a Protection from law effect.

Roy, Malack, Durkon, and possibly some of the summons will be trapped outside. Nale will recognize the effect, and be surprised that he wasn't forced to make a will save to cross it (demonstrating that he is no longer Lawful, as the Giant has recently implied). This will lead to two different fights occurring: one inside the line, one outside.

Roy will try to kill Malack and succeed. Durkon will be freed, and despite being thoroughly evil, will have no desire to hurt him.

Nale and Elan will have yet another duel, while Haley will attempt to take down Z. However, this time Z will be better prepared for facing an archer. Fortunately, Elan is still far better at swordplay than Nale.

On a more serious note, their ability to succeed, as always, depends on which spells the LG has prepared, and (more importantly) how well they use them. Fortunately, spellcasters in the strip usually suffer from plot-induced stupidity in combat, so it's unlikely anyone will Forcecage Roy or Wind Wall Haley (if that kind of tactic were allowed as a general rule, the strip would be titled "Pun-Pun solves every problem in existence").

Beyond that, it's simply a matter of having Haley try to shoot down Z, Elan take out Nale, and Roy cleave through the summons on his way to Malack (at which point his new feat will get a workout). The question of how to deal with the new Durkon is something they'll probably leave for the end.

Will things work out so perfectly? Probably not. Rule of Drama and all that.

[Morty]

You know, Roy's anti-caster feat might actually come in pretty handy, not against Xykon here, but against Malack. Malack's probably got a small enough total HP that Roy could insta-gas him, leaving Malack pretty ineffectual.

Yes, I think that if Roy could get close to Malack, Z or Nale, he could eliminate them quickly. The problem are the fiends, which were summoned for the express purpose of preventing that. Perhaps Elan, Haley and Belkar could focus on distracting them from Roy as he gets medieval on the casters.

[Mike Havran]

The best tactics would be to be silent and wait for the LG to enter that ominous bunker and deal with the remaining traps. It's not that anybody can use the Gate the way Xykon can.

Roy technically, with some luck, could take down Malack, but only according to the reader's knowledge so far (and even that is debatable. We still don't know Malack's full power and equipment). Roy in-universe cannot possibly know this and rely on it.

Tarquin's original plan was to follow the Order from a safe distance and let them deal with the dungeon surprises. The Order could use the same stratagem right now.

[Sunken Valley]

Yes, I think that if Roy could get close to Malack, Z or Nale, he could eliminate them quickly. The problem are the fiends, which were summoned for the express purpose of preventing that. Perhaps Elan, Haley and Belkar could focus on distracting them from Roy as he gets medieval on the casters.

Not just the Fiends. Vampire Durkon as well. Look at that roof. Very big is it not. Durkon could not use Thor's Might in his duel with Malack due to a low roof. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0875.html) Now he can. Uh Oh.

Also, don't forget the vampires have dominating gazes. That could obliterate the party.

[Ghosty]

Standard disclaimer: we're assuming that 3.5 rules apply here, and we know that the Giant doesn't feel particularly bound by them at this point.

Do we think that Haley has enough points in Use Magical Device to be able to use a Restoration scroll? If so, does she have one, somewhere in the depths of one of her bags of holding? IMHO, it's silly for a group of adventurers of their level to not have one, but then again they should have had Magic Circle Against Evil/Protection from Evil too (if only for the block on Dominate Person) and we haven't seen any evidence that they've used it in the pyramid.

Otherwise, the Order's going to have to wait until V comes back, and uses Limited Wish to cast Restoration on Belkar. As you all have noted, he's pretty much toast now until he gets his Con back.

Narratively, I don't want Malack to die yet. Even though IMHO that's going to be the key to the Order winning a straight-up fight with the LG. I want there to be a scene where Xykon overhears Malack's plans and is surprised or stunned by their scope. "Wow! I thought I was bad," or something similar. I do think that Belkar's going to make a heroic sacrifice, but I think that'll be a bit later, and may involve a retributive strike using Malack's staff.

I also want a Team Evil meeting with the LG, if only for the Barbed Devil's reaction on seeing the MiTD. (Devils can see through all forms of magical darkness.) I just want more lulz, basically.

Wouldn't Malack have a bunch of Find Traps spells to help him with the trapfinding? 2nd Level divine scrolls can't be that expensive. Other than that, the Order's tactics should involve letting any remaining traps thin the herd, and then attacking while the LG's stunned or otherwise discombobulated by the trap.

Getting Malack destroyed, not just gassed, should be a priority. Gassing Malack won't free Durkferatu from control. Of course, destroying Malack will be challenging, in the depths of a pyramid, away from running water, and no way to cast a Sunbeam or Sunburst. I doubt Elan's good enough with illusions to simulate one of those spells. (But a shadow Girard might be...) The second priority should be neutralizing Z. And I do expect, per Sunken Valley's observation above, Thor's (Nergal's?) Might to make an appearance. Even with V, this fight'd be a toughie. I don't see the Order winning it without hir.

[Severus Drape]

I honestly hope that Thor's Might, being a good-aligned homebrew spell, would be totally unusable to Vampire Durkon.

[Sunken Valley]

I honestly hope that Thor's Might, being a good-aligned homebrew spell, would be totally unusable to Vampire Durkon.

Nope, Thor's Might is just a name change of Righteous Might (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/righteousMight.htm). Which will work.

[Severus Drape]

Nope, Thor's Might is just a name change of Righteous Might (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/righteousMight.htm). Which will work.

I don't see how this addresses my point. You can't change a spell's name like that, you chant it, you cast it. If you chant it wrong it fails, just like the "mass debt gourd".
Given the name "Thor" it's pretty probable the spell was remade and based upon a good-aligned deity.

[veti]

I'd have Elan add a few more illusions to make it look like there is no line.

Almost...

If I were playing Elan, I would try to re-create the line about half a meter inside where it actually is. When the real line zaps the LG - wait until their attention is elsewhere, then quietly contract it another half-meter.

[martianmister]

I honestly hope that Thor's Might, being a good-aligned homebrew spell, would be totally unusable to Vampire Durkon.

Maybe it's a neutral spell?

[EmperorSarda]

I don't see how this addresses my point. You can't change a spell's name like that, you chant it, you cast it. If you chant it wrong it fails, just like the "mass debt gourd".
Given the name "Thor" it's pretty probable the spell was remade and based upon a good-aligned deity.

It acts completely the same though, except it is a domain spell for Thor.

[Severus Drape]

It acts completely the same though, except it is a domain spell for Thor.

Yes but my point is, being a Thor's dedicated spell, I don't really see vampire Durkon casting it. It was already bad when he mantained all his spell slots through death (though I don't know the exact rules on that, so it could have been possible) but an evil vampire thrall calling the Powers of Good sounds just too much to me.

[EmperorSarda]

Yes but my point is, being a Thor's dedicated spell, I don't really see vampire Durkon casting it. It was already bad when he mantained all his spell slots through death (though I don't know the exact rules on that, so it could have been possible) but an evil vampire thrall calling the Powers of Good sounds just too much to me.

He wouldn't be calling on the powers of Good, because he already has the spell prepared. Hence why he could cast Planar Binding, because that was one of his remaining spells.

There is nothing stopping him from converting Thor's Might to Mass Inflict Light Wounds though.

[Severus Drape]

I meant using an almost certainly good-aligned spell.
I don't think evil clerics can do that.

[EmperorSarda]

I meant using an almost certainly good-aligned spell.
I don't think evil clerics can do that.

Evil clerics cannot prepare good aligned spells, true. But we have no clue if Thor's Might has the good descriptor or not. If it does, Vampire Durkon cannot cast it. But that doesn't mean it isn't a prepared spell.

[Severus Drape]

I never said it wasn't prepared.

[Bulldog Psion]

It just occurred to me that Roy is about to be confronted with the visual proof of Durkon's death, and possibly be forced to fight his now-undead friend. And Belkar's account is going to be proven accurate.

[karkus]

Yes but my point is, being a Thor's dedicated spell, I don't really see vampire Durkon casting it. It was already bad when he mantained all his spell slots through death (though I don't know the exact rules on that, so it could have been possible) but an evil vampire thrall calling the Powers of Good sounds just too much to me.

At first I thought you were nitpicking the name, but I think that I now get what you mean.

Everyone's on board with the whole "Functionally Righteous Might" idea, but I think that what you mean to say is that it might be a half-homebrewed spell, behaving very similarly to RM, but using the power of Thor instead.

However, while I don't think for a second that Durkula can prepare the spell, I think that because he already has it prepared, he can cast it today and today only (because gods grant spells when they are prepared, not as they go along in the day).

However, it is notable that in Deities and Demigods, it was stated that gods may take away the ability to cast any prepared, uncast spells, and likewise return them with a single thought and a functionally immediate action. So, if they were to somehow get a prayer to Thor, asking for his help, he could cripple Durkula for the time being, at least until he can re-prepare spells under no deity.

[Severus Drape]

Granted, but evil clerics can't cast good cleric's spells, and if Durkon felt the need to rename the "Righteous Might" spell to honor Thor I don't see why he wouldn't give it the "good" descriptor.

[Sky_Schemer]

Granted, but evil clerics can't cast good cleric's spells, and if Durkon felt the need to rename the "Righteous Might" spell to honor Thor I don't see why he wouldn't give it the "good" descriptor.

I guess it comes down to whether or not this is a different spell than "Righteous Might" (which has no restrictions on who can use it), or if Durkon just happens to call it "Thor's Might" when cast.

We don't have any definitive evidence in the comic either way, so this is a question only Rich can answer. (EDIT: But see two posts down (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15412727&postcount=36) for evidence-based speculation.)

[EmperorSarda]

Granted, but evil clerics can't cast good cleric's spells, and if Durkon felt the need to rename the "Righteous Might" spell to honor Thor I don't see why he wouldn't give it the "good" descriptor.

Righteous Might doesn't have the Good descriptor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/righteousMight.htm) in it normally. If anything, Thor's Might (and Thor's lightning) have the Thor descriptor due to the name.

Also, Durkon didn't change the name of the spell/create it, Thor did.

[Sky_Schemer]

If anything, Thor's Might (and Thor's lightning) have the Thor descriptor due to the name.

Also, Durkon didn't change the name of the spell/create it, Thor did.

This is probably the best argument that these spells are specific to Thor. While it can be argued that "Thor's Might" is just "Righteous Might" with a fancy name, there is no equivalent to "Thor's Lightning".

[Severus Drape]

Righteous Might doesn't have the Good descriptor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/righteousMight.htm) in it normally. If anything, Thor's Might (and Thor's lightning) have the Thor descriptor due to the name.

Also, Durkon didn't change the name of the spell/create it, Thor did.

a) By descriptor I mean the classification "good", "evil" or even "strenght" "chaos" etc. There is no "Thor" descriptor.
b) No, just like with the Mass Death Ward spell, Durkon would create, name and propose the spell to Thor(DM), which only has to either accept or refuse it.

[EmperorSarda]

a) By descriptor I mean the classification "good", "evil" or even "strenght" "chaos" etc. There is no "Thor" descriptor.
Not in the SRD, no. But that doesn't mean there isn't a Thor domain within the comic.

b) No, just like with the Mass Death Ward spell, Durkon would create, name and propose the spell to Thor(DM), which only has to either accept or refuse it.

Durkon certainly can, but why are you assuming that Durkon created Thor's Might and Thor's Lightning when they most likely are spells for a custom Thor domain?

[Severus Drape]

Not in the SRD, no. But that doesn't mean there isn't a Thor domain within the comic.
I don't see how.
The purpose of a descriptor is to identify the type and/or alignment of the spell, not to have many variants for each God of the many, abundant pantheons.
Occam's Razor says that, if anything, it's the "good" or "chaotic" descriptor we'd be dealing here.


Durkon certainly can, but why are you assuming that Durkon created Thor's Might and Thor's Lightning when they most likely are spells for a custom Thor domain?
Because you're saying that, "most likely"
a) Thor would have a personal Thor Domain, when it's been proved that Durkon has Air and Good;
b) Thor would give it two redundant, copycat spells for absolutely no reason at all.

Considering how Durkon has already shown of being a zealous servant of his God and keen of researching customized variants, I find it much more plausible that he simply homebrewed the spells himself to honor his patron deity.

[EmperorSarda]

I don't see how.
1. I think we are quibbling about two different things, the descriptor, and the domain. I'm saying that there could be some sort of specialized Thor domain because the domains in the SRD aren't the only domains out there.
There are domains such as Abyss (Spell Compendium), Celestial (BoED), City, Craft, Demonic, Dragon, Dream, Drow (3.0 Forgotten Realms), Fey, Guardian, Magic, Pestilence, Portal, Spider, Thirst and whole slew of other domains. That doesn't prevent Thor's Lightning or Thor's Might from having the good descriptor. It's completely unknown if they do or not though since they're appear more like Lightning Bolt and Righteous Might.


a) Thor would have a personal Thor Domain, when it's been proved that Durkon has Air and Good; Where is it proved that Durkon has the air domain? I checked the Geekery thread, there's no mention of the air domain on Durkon's listing.


b) Thor would make two homebrew, copycat spells for absolutely no reason at all.
We're both arguing off most likely. I'm saying there is no indication that Durkon created the two spells. They could be created by Thor, or they could be custom spells to the religion of Thor passed down from cleric to cleric. Either I think are more plausible than Durkon creating the two spells since there is no evidence for him doing so or claiming that he did.

[Severus Drape]

1. I think we are quibbling about two different things, the descriptor, and the domain. I'm saying that there could be some sort of specialized Thor domain because the domains in the SRD aren't the only domains out there.
There are domains such as Abyss (Spell Compendium), Celestial (BoED), City, Craft, Demonic, Dragon, Dream, Drow (3.0 Forgotten Realms), Fey, Guardian, Magic, Pestilence, Portal, Spider, Thirst and whole slew of other domains. That doesn't prevent Thor's Lightning or Thor's Might from having the good descriptor. It's completely unknown if they do or not though since they're appear more like Lightning Bolt and Righteous Might.

My point stands on the logic that, if Durkon (or Thor, or his religion, or anyone else of his followers) went as far as to create a homebrew "Deus Named" version of those two spells to stomp their enemies, there's no reason not to put the good descriptor along with changing their names.
You're basically yelling "THOR SMASH!" every time you use it, what's the point of making a glorified spell if it doesn't even match your alignment?


Where is it proved that Durkon has the air domain? I checked the Geekery thread, there's no mention of the air domain on Durkon's listing.
Control Winds, either druidic or Air domain.


We're both arguing off most likely. I'm saying there is no indication that Durkon created the two spells. They could be created by Thor, or they could be custom spells to the religion of Thor passed down from cleric to cleric. Either I think are more plausible than Durkon creating the two spells since there is no evidence for him doing so or claiming that he did.
It's been hinted at as Durkon's been shown researching homebrew spells.

[EmperorSarda]

My point stands on the logic that, if Durkon (or Thor, or his religion, or anyone else of his followers) went as far as to create a homebrew "Deus Named" version of those two spells to stomp their enemies, there's no reason not to put the good descriptor along with changing their names.
You're basically yelling "THOR SMASH!" every time you use it, what's the point of making a glorified spell if it doesn't even match your alignment?
It sounds like a why didn't x do y such question. We have no clue if the spells are good aligned, we have no clue if they aren't. But this comic is full of things that could/should have been done differently and sounds like something an optimizer would do.

Just cause we might do such a thing doesn't mean Thor or whoever did as well.



Control Winds, either druidic or Air domain.
Huh, that's interesting. That does give cause to wonder then if either
a) Durkon has the Air domain and Thor's Might/Thor's Lightning are cleric spells native to Dwarves/Worshippers of Thor
or
b) There is a custom Thor Domain in which Air Walk is a part of, along with Thor's Might and Thor's Lightning

[/quote]
It's been hinted at as Durkon's been shown researching homebrew spells.[/QUOTE]
Where was this even hinted before Durkon started researching Mass Death Ward?

[SaintRidley]

Well. you can't just give a descriptor to a spell. That sort of thing takes a metamagic feat or the like, usually. If Thor's Might has the [Good] descriptor due to Thor deciding it should when he decided to revise Righteous Might to his liking, that would prevent Durkon from casting it now. However, if it lacks the [Good] descriptor, he can still cast it, Thor's name or not.

[zimmerwald1915]

Well. you can't just give a descriptor to a spell. That sort of thing takes a metamagic feat or the like, usually. If Thor's Might has the [Good] descriptor due to Thor deciding it should when he decided to revise Righteous Might to his liking, that would prevent Durkon from casting it now. However, if it lacks the [Good] descriptor, he can still cast it, Thor's name or not.
If someone, let's say the author, wanted to be especially silly, he could call it Gozer's Might in reference to Durkon's Destruction domain.

"Choose the form of the Destructor!" :smalltongue:

[OctoberRaven]

The PHB does suggest that Clerics might name certain spells (like Bigsby's Crushing Hand) after their diety.

Anyway, tactics:

Pre-Battle- Heal Belkar if possible (Elan has MCLW and possibly other healing spells)
1) Haley Manyshot sneak attacks Z (though this might not work, because Z might have cast Protection From Arrows)
2) Belkar charges Z
3) Roy charges Malack (having the Starmetal's anti-undead properties and his anti-caster feat)
4) Elan engages Nale (for obvious reasons)

Also: Durkon is a HUGE wildcard here, enough that Roy might want to consider attacking Durkon first. Reason being: We don't actually know what spells Durkon currently has. We don't know how long the Order was stuck in the illusion... could have been long enough for Durkon to replenish his spell slots, and it's not guaranteed that he's getting his spells from Thor at the moment, as Thor is probably an LG deity, and Durkon would probably be LE right now and may be getting his magic from Nergal.

However, it seems that they won't consider attacking Durkon...

[Porthos]

Pre-Battle- Heal Belkar if possible (Elan has MCLW and possibly other healing spells)

Not possible, sadly. Unless someone has a scroll of Restoration that someone can UMD. But, if they had one, one would think they would have already used it.

[Emanick]

4) Elan engages Tarquin (thus making it likely that Tarquin will keep defensive as he doesn't want to hurt Elan)


When did Tarquin enter the field of battle? :smallconfused:

[OctoberRaven]

When did Tarquin enter the field of battle? :smallconfused:

Ah, right, he stayed at the entrance. Okay, Elan goes after Nale then.

[Severus Drape]

It sounds like a why didn't x do y such question. We have no clue if the spells are good aligned, we have no clue if they aren't. But this comic is full of things that could/should have been done differently and sounds like something an optimizer would do.

Just cause we might do such a thing doesn't mean Thor or whoever did as well.

This in particular isn't about optimization, but logic. Just as much as a Paladin wouldn't forge a neutral/evil magical weapon (most likely) or Haerta a good-aligned spell, I don't really see Thor or any of his followers creating a specific Thor-aligned spell without matching it to the deity's inclinations.


Where was this even hinted before Durkon started researching Mass Death Ward?
Nowhere, as one example is enough to count as a hint.

[EmperorSarda]

This in particular isn't about optimization, but logic. Just as much as a Paladin wouldn't forge a neutral/evil magical weapon (most likely) or Haerta a good-aligned spell, I don't really see Thor or any of his followers creating a specific Thor-aligned spell without matching it to the deity's inclinations.

But there are no guarantees on what they would or would not do. It is impossible to know, and saying that it is the logical thing to do does not mean they necessarily did it.



Nowhere, as one example is enough to count as a hint.

Barely a hint since nowhere suggests that Durkon had researched a new clerical spell before.

[AstralFire]

I think it is more likely that it is acceptable when invoking a Divine Spell to rename it in favor of your god at your choice, than to assume that these are homebrewed spells which have not been called out as such before now.

Divine Casters already get other leniencies that Arcane Casters do not, such as no spell failure chance in armor.

[Severus Drape]

But there are no guarantees on what they would or would not do. It is impossible to know, and saying that it is the logical thing to do does not mean they necessarily did it.
Of course not.


Barely a hint since nowhere suggests that Durkon had researched a new clerical spell before.
Technically, no.
Practically, I doubt he woke up in that particular strip and realized "maybe I can create a Mass Death Ward". Rule of Logic says that, if he did then, he must have at least contemplated doing it before.

[EmperorSarda]

Rule of Logic says that, if he did then, he must have at least contemplated doing it before.

Or he has heard it being done before and just never done it before.

[OctoberRaven]

Durkon didn't invent/research Mass Death Ward. Malack did. That's why Malack had the secret dispel word.

[EmperorSarda]

Durkon didn't invent/research Mass Death Ward. Malack did. That's why Malack had the secret dispel word.

Malack helped Durkon research and invent it, which is how he could sneak in the back door.

[CowardlyPaladin]

I"m thinking, what if the Order attacked right after Nale got zapped? I'd assume they get a suprise round because clearly Malack/Nale wouldn't see that coming.

Suprise Round

Haley Sneak attacks Nale. 4 shots, all sneak attack with a +5 Icy bow against a seemingly unarmored man who has already taken damage, that might knock him down.
Roy attacks Malack. Mid level fighter with decent strength, a belt of giants strength and a +5 anti undead greatsword (Which would activate because he is angry) that might be enough to mist Malack. Afterall, Malack isn't vezry good in the hit point department.
Belkar attacks Z, pretty much the only thing he can do now is attack.
Mr. Scruffy attacks Zas well
Elan finishes off Nale, or finishes off Z. He isn't exactly good in the hit point department.

Round 1:
Haley would most likely still go first, and either finishes off Nale/Malack, or attacks Durkon.
Belkar: High Intuitive, so attacks Durkon
Mr. Scruffy: Attacks Durkon
Fiend 1: If there master dies does the summon end?
Fiend 2: most likely kills Belkar or attacks Roy.
Elan: attacks Durkon
Roy: Attacks Durkon
Durkon: Low Dex, so would attack last. Out of high level spells, but could attack Elan.

Would I be right here?

[Coat]

Roy attacks Malack. Mid level fighter with decent strength, a belt of giants strength and a +5 anti undead greatsword (Which would activate because he is angry) that might be enough to mist Malack. Afterall, Malack isn't vezry good in the hit point department.

We don't know what level Malack is. Minimum of 12 levels of Cleric, d12 because Undead. No reason to believe he is much more than this. Yet.

Not clear what his base race is. If Lizardfolk, he gets +1HD for that. Something like a Yuan-Ti abomination has been proposed, which would be +6HD or more. So a minimum average of around 85hp to burn through, but could be more.

Lizardfolk gives him +5 natural armour, vampire another +6, and damage reduction 10/silver and magic on top of that. Roy may not be able to full power attack and be confident of hitting. If he can't power attack, damage reduction will have a much bigger effect.

And, of course, Lizardfolk and Vampire together give him plus +8 to STR. Cleric buffs could easily add another +10 to that. We know Durkon can handle himself in melee - we can't assume that Malack will be much weaker. I'm not great at 3.5 rules -but consider how quickly and easily he took down Durkon when it came to fisticuffs.

And, of course, he meets all the criteria for vampire lord. If he is one, that would take him all the way to truly frightening.

[CowardlyPaladin]

He can't be that powerful, he complained earlier about the difficulties of finding LA appropriate encounters earlier, and its hinted that Durkon is stronger than he is. Since Durkon seems around level 14, that puts Malak at around level 12-13. I doubt he is a Yuan-ti as he identifies as a Lizardfolk when talking to Durkon (do Yuan-ti even exist in this world?) and he (like most clerics in OOTS) doesn't seem very melee focused, he explicetly says that his grappling techniques are his main means of defense in melee. He is low on spells so I doubt many buffs are active, and even if he has buffs would he cast them now considering durations? Also Roy could totally power attack if he has a suprise round, he would want to put Malak down as quickly as possible

I mean, how many spells does Malak have at this point? He has used up to my memory a Divine Power, A harm, a Hold Person, Poison, two dispel Magics, a greater disipel magic, a quicked Inflict light wounds, some animate dead spells, control wind, and two Flame Strikes. And maybe a fly. Durkon explicetly mentions having only two spells higher than 4th level, which were Thor's Might and a summon, which he has now used. Assuming he can use Thor's might, that is a single spell. He also has used up a Heal, 2 Cure Critical Wounds, Hold Person, remove paraylisis, Mass Death Ward, Dispel Magic, Divine Might, Thor's Lightning, 2 true seeings, a Resurrections, a speak with dead, 2 PLane Shifts, a mass resist acid, a Holy Word, stonemeld, cure light wounds, and a remove deafness
And maybe another cure critical because we see the kobold back at full health after walking up teh stairs

Z has used a fly, maybe 2, 2 empowered Vitrolic Spheres,


Nale has used a suggestion, a dimension Door, and doesn't have his magic sword any more.

So if they had a suprise round, I think OOTS would do well enough

[EmperorSarda]

(do Yuan-ti even exist in this world?) and he (like most clerics in OOTS)
They're not in the SRD and still are copyright of WotC. However... (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0087.html)


I mean, how many spells does Malak have at this point?
I have a full tally of what most of the Linear Guild has used here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15407407&postcount=379).
[/QUOTE]

[Kish]

This in particular isn't about optimization, but logic. Just as much as a Paladin wouldn't forge a neutral/evil magical weapon (most likely) or Haerta a good-aligned spell,
Flag on the play.

The claim, "Every spell researched by a cleric of Thor should gratuitously get the Good descriptor" does mirror, "Every weapon forged by a paladin should gratuitously get the Holy property." It does not mirror, "No spell researched by Haerta should gratuitously get the Good descriptor"; rather, it mirrors, "Every spell researched by Haerta should gratuitously get the Evil descriptor." Or--if you want a specific example--"Mass Death Ward has the Good descriptor" mirrors, "Epic Teleport has the Evil descriptor."

For the case of Thor's Lightning--do I take it that you aren't one of the people who believes Thor is Chaotic Good?

[Coat]

he (like most clerics in OOTS) doesn't seem very melee focused, he explicetly says that his grappling techniques are his main means of defense in melee.

No, he says that physical violence is crass, and grappling is undignified.
That's a different thing to not being good at it.

Durkon looks like a fighter because he's covered in plate mail, and carries a hammer. Malack might not look like a front-line fighter, but he gets more armour than full plate from bare scales + vampire adjustment (with no penalty to the substantial bonus from vampire DEX), and has a slam attack with his bare hands that does d6 damage and level drains.


I mean, how many spells does Malak have at this point? He has used up to my memory a Divine Power (4), A harm (6), a Hold Person (2), Poison (4), two dispel Magics (3), a greater disipel magic (6), a quicked Inflict light wounds (5), some animate dead spells, control wind (5), and two Flame Strikes (5). And maybe a fly.

So, if he's a 12th lvl cleric (which I agree he probably is), he's got 1 6th left, no 5th, 2 4th left, 3 3rd, and most of his 2nd and 1st.

So, no righteous might, but another divine power is possible.

1st: Divine favour (+4 attack & damage, if he's lvl 12), Magic Weapon, if it can be applied to a vampire slam. It does work on monk attacks. Shield of faith for +4AC

2nd: Aid, (d8+10 extra HP), Bull's Strength (+4 STR),

3rd: Magic Vestment for another +3AC, Prayer,

4th: Divine Power (+6 STR, +12HP, BAB goes up to 12, giving him a 3rd attack), Greater Magic Weapon (if allowed) for another +3 attack/damage


He is low on spells so I doubt many buffs are active, and even if he has buffs would he cast them now considering durations?

Some of the above have quite long durations at his level, but yes, that's a pick list of things he might be able to do, rather than a complete list of what he has running.


Also Roy could totally power attack if he has a suprise round, he would want to put Malak down as quickly as possible

If he can hit with a full power attack. Depending on the enchantments on rings and cloak (bearing in mind Team Tarquin has access to the resources of most of a continent, and this is a 200+ year old vampire), his AC might be high enough to make that fairly difficult. Even flat-footed.

Dude is scary.

[CowardlyPaladin]

Can't be too high, Durkon who is far weaker was able to hit him with his hammer, which I don't even know if it is enchanted. So Roy with his Belt and a +5 anti undead greatsword shouldn't have a problem with hitting him, ad its possible to mist him. If you mist a vampire, do they have to go back to there coffin??

[Olinser]

Can't be too high, Durkon who is far weaker was able to hit him with his hammer, which I don't even know if it is enchanted. So Roy with his Belt and a +5 anti undead greatsword shouldn't have a problem with hitting him, ad its possible to mist him. If you mist a vampire, do they have to go back to there coffin??

They can mist voluntarily, as Malack did against Durkon. If they do it voluntarily, they can turn back whenever they want.

If they are reduced to 0 hp, they are forced to mist, and they have to retreat to their coffin. They have 2 hours to get there (9 mile radius), and once there, it takes 1 hour for them to regenerate to 1 hp. At that point the vampire can move and act normally again, and his normal fast healing resumes.

[OctoberRaven]

For the case of Thor's Lightning--do I take it that you aren't one of the people who believes Thor is Chaotic Good?

Not familiar with this argument here, but this is highly unlikely.


Alignment

A cleric’s alignment must be within one step of his deity’s (that is, it may be one step away on either the lawful-chaotic axis or the good-evil axis, but not both). A cleric may not be neutral unless his deity’s alignment is also neutral.

By the 3.5 RAW, Durkon would have been two steps away before his vampirization, being Lawful Good.

Thor is more likely Neutral Good.