[nWoD] Lichdom

[Drakevarg]

Having recently shifted my campaign from 3.5 to nWoD, one of my players has as one of his character motivations be obtaining lichdom. My understanding is that WoD lichdom is more of a (to use the phrase another player gave me) Dorian Grey-esque deal, stealing lifespan from one person and tacking it on to your own. My player is determined to get the DnD version, an undead with his soul hidden away in a box somewhere so he can just come back to life if slain.

While I would prefer to just use whatever tools are already present, the current idea is to come up with some multi-Arcana, multi-rote setup wherein they create a sort or organic seed, like a heart with no veins, which will grow into a body matching whatever soul is placed inside it, then create a trigger to transfer their own soul to the seed on the event of their death. They'd need to create the seed again each time and it would be possible for someone else to link their soul to it, but it roughly equates to a phylactery at least.

I understand there's a way to just transfer your soul into a zombie if you die, but my player says it could be undone by a decently powerful Prime mage, and as he said, "Lichdom should NOT be something you can just up and -dispel-." Does the Playground know of any better ways to replicate lichdom? For now I'm only using WoD core and Mage, but that'll expand with time and he's a ways from being able to pull this off.

[TheCountAlucard]

WoD Mages are the most powerful beings in the setting, except for maybe mummies. There's no enchantment they can't break, given sufficient time or XP. Being sent after something a Mage can't **** with is a fool's errand.

[Grinner]

Wasn't there a sourcebook about something like that? The cover was a picture of a Lara Croft clone caressing some statue?

[The Glyphstone]

If he really, really wants it, work out a way for him to do it - Archmastery can turn someone into a vampire, so a cobbled-together multi-arcana composite spell should be doable at mere Mastery.

Let him do it. Then make him pay, horribly, for it. He's now a gigantic walking pile of Paradox, that a mortal could accidentally kill just by looking at him. The Tremere Liches of NuMage keep with their soul-stealing and soul-eating because they did it once and can't stop without dying permanently...so any means of magical immortality has to be worse than what they go through, otherwise they'd have switched over.

[Leliel]

If he really, really wants it, work out a way for him to do it - Archmastery can turn someone into a vampire, so a cobbled-together multi-arcana composite spell should be doable at mere Mastery.

Let him do it. Then make him pay, horribly, for it. He's now a gigantic walking pile of Paradox, that a mortal could accidentally kill just by looking at him. The Tremere Liches of NuMage keep with their soul-stealing and soul-eating because they did it once and can't stop without dying permanently...so any means of magical immortality has to be worse than what they go through, otherwise they'd have switched over.

Or, if he's a Silver Ladder with skill in Spirit, urge him to switch to the Bene Elohim Legacy.

They gain immortality as spirits at the Third Attainment. That ain't easy to achieve, but still.

[Drakevarg]

Let him do it. Then make him pay, horribly, for it. He's now a gigantic walking pile of Paradox, that a mortal could accidentally kill just by looking at him.

Fortunately for him, since the whole Sleeper/Awakened thing doesn't make the slightest bit of sense within the context of my setting (I'm only using the WoD rules system, the lore can shove it), Paradoxes are only triggered by vulgar spells, not by doing stuff in front of non-mages.

[Mewtarthio]

Are you opposed to refluffing things? If not, you could let him become one of the Arisen (read: Mummies).

[Drakevarg]

Are you opposed to refluffing things? If not, you could let him become one of the Arisen (read: Mummies).

Kind of a basic necessity considering I'm running a medieval fantasy setting with a completely different cosmology from WoD's metaplot. Where are the Arisen from?

[WitchSlayer]

Kind of a basic necessity considering I'm running a medieval fantasy setting with a completely different cosmology from WoD's metaplot. Where are the Arisen from?

An extremely old civilization called the Nameless Empire because it's so old the concept of an empire didn't exist so they didn't name it.

They are from the book Mummy: The Curse.

[Selrahc]

Kind of a basic necessity considering I'm running a medieval fantasy setting with a completely different cosmology from WoD's metaplot. Where are the Arisen from?

Arisen are mummies. But they are quite like Liches. Mummies are immortal, and will regenerate after death in their tomb.

The difference with Liches is that their life span is highly limited. They awake following a ritual, filled to the brim with power, but that power leeches away as they stay awake, eventually forcing them back to their tombs. While the life force remains, they will regenerate from death in a time between seconds and months(dependent on life force. Kill a mummy at high life force, and they'll be back inside a 10 count). Once the life force goes, they will spend generations dead. Mummies are truly immortal, but are amnesiac.

I think they're quite a good way of representing Liches. But they aren't mages! Almost as powerful, but in a different way. Suss out exactly what your player wants out of the lich experience. If they just want a more powerful undead mage, I'd look into something else.

[Drakevarg]

Talked with my player, and we decided to go with Mummies with about a dozen houserules and a total lore rewrite. :smalltongue:

Such as: memory loss just happens on death, the Descent occurs annually, there's no Judges, the Decree of Shadow is replaced with the Death Arcanum, "Mummy Juice" (can't be bothered to learn the proper name) is replenished by using the Death Arcanum rotes that steal mana, and the tomb is a sarcophagus so it can be transported.

Seeing as how he needs to get to Death 5 first and is trading in all his mage powers for mummy powers, it needed to be a patently better offer.

[SiuiS]

Having recently shifted my campaign from 3.5 to nWoD, one of my players has as one of his character motivations be obtaining lichdom. My understanding is that WoD lichdom is more of a (to use the phrase another player gave me) Dorian Grey-esque deal, stealing lifespan from one person and tacking it on to your own. My player is determined to get the DnD version, an undead with his soul hidden away in a box somewhere so he can just come back to life if slain.

While I would prefer to just use whatever tools are already present, the current idea is to come up with some multi-Arcana, multi-rote setup wherein they create a sort or organic seed, like a heart with no veins, which will grow into a body matching whatever soul is placed inside it, then create a trigger to transfer their own soul to the seed on the event of their death. They'd need to create the seed again each time and it would be possible for someone else to link their soul to it, but it roughly equates to a phylactery at least.

I understand there's a way to just transfer your soul into a zombie if you die, but my player says it could be undone by a decently powerful Prime mage, and as he said, "Lichdom should NOT be something you can just up and -dispel-." Does the Playground know of any better ways to replicate lichdom? For now I'm only using WoD core and Mage, but that'll expand with time and he's a ways from being able to pull this off.

Eh, "a mage can dispell it" misses some marks. There is a maximum amount of dice you're supposed to be able to roll (basically, your dicepool squared) and you need more successes on that total than on the phylactry to dispel it. A dispelled item also regenerates it's magic, so it wouldn't be the end of things.

Theres a legacy which turns everyone who takes it into one guy, and that legacy is spread via book. Perhaps that guy is a lich?

That said, awakened magic is pretty freeform. Have one enforcer, Dullahan, who turns their body into armor and animates it with their soul. Any and all damage is regenerated using conjunctional Death/Matter by forming a new body or body part out of ephemera and shunting it into the physical world (where it becomes part of the animated object and thus, controlled). That's all you need for lichdom; He ends up living in the Phylactry, and forms a body out of ephemera which becomes a corpse (still an object by Awakened standards) which he then possesses. Any dispellation returns the lich to the phylactry (which is possible in 3.5, too) from where it builds another body.

I'd suggest hiding the phylactry in a hallow, personally.


Fortunately for him, since the whole Sleeper/Awakened thing doesn't make the slightest bit of sense within the context of my setting (I'm only using the WoD rules system, the lore can shove it), Paradoxes are only triggered by vulgar spells, not by doing stuff in front of non-mages.

Heh. Yeah, I liked paradox as a magic limiter, myself.

To replicate D&D, I'd go with all spells being rotes, all creative thaumaturgy being vulgar, and allowing a mage to have rotes up to Arcana+Gnosis, so that gnosis becomes like caster level.

I would also divy up arcana by class (Life/Spirit, Life/death, Forces/Mind, etc.) so the costs are mmore in line with letting other classes shine, but that's me.

[Drakevarg]

I would also divy up arcana by class (Life/Spirit, Life/death, Forces/Mind, etc.) so the costs are mmore in line with letting other classes shine, but that's me.

I divided arcanum up into paths that best fit my setting's lore:

Mortal - Life/Death
Elemental - Forces/Matter
Primal - Prime/Space
Spiritual - Spirit/Mind

With Time/Fate being the inferior arcanum for all of them.

[SiuiS]

That works. I was thinking stadard D&D, and stuff like illusionist, necromancer, evoker, cleric, crusader, druid... Yours is much better.

[Sith_Happens]

Bene Elohim Legacy.

*twitch*

Please tell me the Mage writers didn't actually fail that hard at transliterating a three-letter word.

[Selrahc]

I understand there's a way to just transfer your soul into a zombie if you die, but my player says it could be undone by a decently powerful Prime mage, and as he said, "Lichdom should NOT be something you can just up and -dispel-."

Incidentally, if you were looking for something simpler- Doing something like this as a Legacy attainment rather than a spell would mean he isn't going to be hit by Prime dispellations or Paradox.

[Leliel]

*twitch*

Please tell me the Mage writers didn't actually fail that hard at transliterating a three-letter word.

Wouldn't be the first time. *cough*Lancea Sanctum*cough*.

If it makes you feel better, Bene Elohim is a nickname: their proper one is Scions of God.

[The Glyphstone]

Fortunately for him, since the whole Sleeper/Awakened thing doesn't make the slightest bit of sense within the context of my setting (I'm only using the WoD rules system, the lore can shove it), Paradoxes are only triggered by vulgar spells, not by doing stuff in front of non-mages.

Ah, missed that. I didn't notice you were trying to hack the NWoD rules to play D&D, not take a D&D character and recreate him in the NWoD setting.

A mastery-level combination rote of Death 5, Prime 5, and Mind 5 seems like a good combo to work with. Makes a nice little trinity of body, soul, and mind related components for the spell.

[Drakevarg]

Ah, missed that. I didn't notice you were trying to hack the NWoD rules to play D&D, not take a D&D character and recreate him in the NWoD setting.

Eh... not quite either of those. I'm trying to play my own game, not nWoD or DnD. Prepackaged lore is boring and I never ever use it.

[Leliel]

Eh... not quite either of those. I'm trying to play my own game, not nWoD or DnD. Prepackaged lore is boring and I never ever use it.

Ah.

There is something you must know from the lore, however: There are true liches in the base game. It's a general term for any mage who uses magic to extend his life, often through a Legacy.

The Tremere are simply the most infamous and important.

Thus, you can be a lich just through plain magic, or homebrewing a Legacy focused on immortality to join.

[The Glyphstone]

He knows that, he's trying to specifically recreate the D&D-esque Lich - the mind of a spellcaster animating their own undead corpse, with a magical phylactery prepared to house their soul if their body is destroyed from which they can reform their physical shell.

That requires magic, and we're trying to work out what magic is appropriate. Even for a Legacy, they require certain Arcanas to join, so that'd be the same.

[satorian]

I would tell him not to worry about the fact that some mages might be able to theoretically undo his lichdom. If the spell to become a lich is sufficiently high dot (like 2 or more spheres at mastery level), undoing it will be very hard. Basically the same as DnD. In DnD a series of perfectly worded wishes or epic casting could undo lichdom, but it would be very hard. Same deal here. Sure, maybe a little easier, since mages in WoD can theoretically do anything, moreso even than DnD, but still very hard. It just means he should work on layers of defense for his undeath, just like a smart lich in DnD would do.

[Drakevarg]

Like I said, we're probably just gonna go with a Death 5 rote that lets him trade in his Mage template for a heavily, heavily refluffed Arisen template. Not even a phylactery to worry about, just needs to not screw up 17 times in a row and get kicked out of the campaign for an in-game year.

[Sith_Happens]

Like I said, we're probably just gonna go with a Death 5 rote that lets him trade in his Mage template for a heavily, heavily refluffed Arisen template. Not even a phylactery to worry about, just needs to not screw up 17 times in a row and get kicked out of the campaign for an in-game year.

Aw, I liked SiuiS's Darth-Sion-meets-Alphonse-Elric plan.:smallfrown: