Sorcerer vs. Wizard

[Vknight]

I need to explain too a group of people why the Sorcerer though also a tier 1 class does not have the same potential as a Wizard.

The groups reasoning being that a Sorcerer has more spells per day in the book, and can cast spontaneously.

I know wizards but not well enough.

So to prove my point I need a Wizard who can rapidly change out his spell load-out. Has a very large spell load-out. Bring a point to bare on the fact the wizard has more spells because of the ability to learn new spells besides from leveling. Among other things

[eggynack]

The sorcerer actually isn't a tier one class. It's basically the definition of a tier two class, lacking complete access to game breaking power. There are other tier two classes, but sorcerer may be the tier twoiest.

[Tvtyrant]

Why do you need to explain this? Show them the tier system and if they don't agree just shrug.

Now if you want to convince them/force them to agree with you, I would suggest focused specialist/dual specialist. Dual specialist is a Changeling Wizard substitution level (1.) This gets you 4 extra spells a level in return for dropping 4 schools, which are going to be Evocation, Enchantment, Illusion and Necromancy. You focus specialize in Conjuration and normal focus in Divination, so you get a metric tons of extra spells.

Drop your familiar for Abrupt Jaunt for lots of little "can't touch this" teleports a day. Now you have more spells than your allied sorcerer, know more spells, are able to dodge out of harms way as an immediate action and can still leave your spell slots open and add to them as the day progresses.

[ryu]

Have you considered googling easy bake wizard? Get a hilarious number of spells known and spells per day without relying on the dm to hand you scribing material for your book. You just straight up get more than the sorcerer and we haven't even used acfs.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Now if you want to convince them/force them to agree with you, I would suggest focused specialist/dual specialist. Dual specialist is a Changeling Wizard substitution level (1.) This gets you 4 extra spells a level in return for dropping 4 schools, which are going to be Evocation, Enchantment, Illusion and Necromancy. You focus specialize in Conjuration and normal focus in Divination, so you get a metric tons of extra spells.

Drop your familiar for Abrupt Jaunt for lots of little "can't touch this" teleports a day. Now you have more spells than your allied sorcerer, know more spells, are able to dodge out of harms way as an immediate action and can still leave your spell slots open and add to them as the day progresses.

That just doesn't work at all. Changeling dual specialist is hard-coded to illusion and transmutation and you can't be a specialist in one school and a focused specialist in another. Both the dual specialist and focused specialist replace the normal option to specialize. You get one or the other, not both.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Have you considered googling easy bake wizard? Get a hilarious number of spells known and spells per day without relying on the dm to hand you scribing material for your book. You just straight up get more than the sorcerer and we haven't even used acfs.


Eidetic wizard -is- an ACF. It replaces the scribe scroll bonus feat and the familiar.

On-topic;

The difference in capability between a sorcerer and a wizard in standard play is negligable. Only as you approach rediculous or even theoretical levels of optimization does the wizard pull ahead of the sorcerer by a noteable margin.

Unless your player intends to be Batman, sorcerer is probably adequate. It's also a -lot- less book keeping.

[eggynack]

Eidetic wizard -is- an ACF. It replaces the scribe scroll bonus feat and the familiar.

On-topic;

The difference in capability between a sorcerer and a wizard in standard play is negligable. Only as you approach rediculous or even theoretical levels of optimization does the wizard pull ahead of the sorcerer by a noteable margin.

Unless your player intends to be Batman, sorcerer is probably adequate. It's also a -lot- less book keeping.
I disagree. I think that wizards actually play better in the hands of a person with less experience, as long as they can handle the work. With sorcerers, you pick your sub-optimal spells, and they get stuck that way. Moreover, the things that make up a good sorcerer spell are rather complex. You need your spells to be somewhat spammable, applicable to a number of situations, and highly diverse. Those are tricky qualities to find. With a wizard, you pick some spells, and they suck, and then you try different spells until you find the right ones. The ability to change your spell list day to day is important, as is the ability to never prepare a spell that didn't strike your fancy the first time, as is the fact that sorcerers have a rather low quantity of spells known. Wizards are more powerful in theoretical optimization arenas, but I think that they're also more powerful within the confines of practical, or even low optimization. The fact that wizards are also more generally amenable to prestige classes also seems relevant.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Summon monster and the polymorph line make up enough versatility to cover virtually all scenarios and are both eminently spammable. The lowest level summon monsters can be swapped out for other spells every even level from 4th up.

The polymorph school's contents are even iconic and rather obvious picks, even for a total newb.

The converse of being able to select your spells every day is having to pick your spells every day. Which ones and how many can rapidly become a daunting task unless you settle on a fairly standard, all-purpose load-out.

Unless the DM is an absolute stickler for RAW a first-time sorcerer is likely to be allowed to swap out stinkers once he realizes how worthless they are. This isn't a video game. The guy on the other side of the screen wants his players to have fun (at least if he deserves to be sitting on that side of the screen he does) and will almost always cut a newb some slack if he screws up.

[ryu]

Eidetic wizard is completely optional to easy bake wizard and only necessary if your dm likes to screw with your spellbook.

[Tvtyrant]

That just doesn't work at all. Changeling dual specialist is hard-coded to illusion and transmutation and you can't be a specialist in one school and a focused specialist in another. Both the dual specialist and focused specialist replace the normal option to specialize. You get one or the other, not both.

You got me there. Sometimes I post without thinking :smallredface:

[Kelb_Panthera]

You got me there. Sometimes I post without thinking :smallredface:

It happens to everybody. :smallsmile:

[eggynack]

Summon monster and the polymorph line make up enough versatility to cover virtually all scenarios and are both eminently spammable. The lowest level summon monsters can be swapped out for other spells every even level from 4th up.

The polymorph school's contents are even iconic and rather obvious picks, even for a total newb.

The converse of being able to select your spells every day is having to pick your spells every day. Which ones and how many can rapidly become a daunting task unless you settle on a fairly standard, all-purpose load-out.

Unless the DM is an absolute stickler for RAW a first-time sorcerer is likely to be allowed to swap out stinkers once he realizes how worthless they are. This isn't a video game. The guy on the other side of the screen wants his players to have fun (at least if he deserves to be sitting on that side of the screen he does) and will almost always cut a newb some slack if he screws up.
Power level evaluations tend to be based on how powerful things actually are, not based on the house rules the DM is bringing to the table. It's not like sorcerers are bad for weak players, I just don't think they're as good as wizards. Wizards take a lot of work, but that's true for pretty much everyone. If you have a new player with the will of the wizard, then a wizard is going to be more powerful. Even without spell swapping, the sorcerer's limitation on spells known is a serious one. They just have a less diverse selection of spells over the course of a single day, completely leaving aside their ability to switch them according to circumstances.

[Coidzor]

Why each class is in its tier. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=269440) Compare and contrast Wizard and Sorcerer.

[Kelb_Panthera]

The detriment of the sorcerer's limit on spells know tends to be exaggerated.

There's never a point where a sorcerer knows less than 6 spells of applicable level in his arsenal, except 4th level. Heighten spell can drastically increase this number in mid-high levels by preventing lower level spells from ever becoming truly obsolete.

Note, however, that I'm not saying that sorcerer is -better- than a wizard for a newb. Just that the difference is a fairly small one. Until you reach a certain level of optimization, it's really more a matter of taste. Pick a wizard if you're a planner; pick a sorcerer if you're a spammer or if you prefer to make do with "good enough" rather than trying to always have "perfect."

[Chronos]

The way I like to explain the difference between Tier 1 and the other tiers: Suppose your gaming group just got a new sourcebook. It's a really good book, well-balanced, with something in it for everyone. The fighter's player looks through it and goes "Wow, those are some really good feats. I'll take one of them next level, or the level after that.". The sorcerer's player looks through and says "Wow, those are some really good spells. I'll take one of them next level.". The wizard's player, or the cleric's, or the druid's, looks through the book and says "Wow, those are some really good spells. I'll take all of them right now.".

And it's a mistake to say that a sorcerer gets more spells per day. At some levels they do, but not always. Consider 9th level, with a modest 20 key ability stat (starting at 16, +2 from levels, +2 from an item). The specialist wizard will have 5 cantrips, 7 first level, 6 second level, 5 third level, 4 fourth level, and 3 fifth level, for a total of 24 non-cantrip spells. The sorcerer, meanwhile, will have 6 cantrips, 8 first-level, 7 second-level, 7 third-level, and 5 fourth-level, for a total of 27 non-cantrip spells. OK, so that's a little more for the sorcerer, but only slightly. More importantly, they're also weaker spells than the wizard has: The wizard has three fifth-level spells, while the sorcerer has zero. The wizard has seven spells of fourth level or higher, while the sorcerer has only five. The wizard has twelve spells of third or higher, equal to the sorcerer. The sorcerer isn't actually ahead of the wizard until you look all the way down to second-level spells.

[eggynack]

The detriment of the sorcerer's limit on spells know tends to be exaggerated.

There's never a point where a sorcerer knows less than 6 spells of applicable level in his arsenal, except 4th level. Heighten spell can drastically increase this number in mid-high levels by preventing lower level spells from ever becoming truly obsolete.

Note, however, that I'm not saying that sorcerer is -better- than a wizard for a newb. Just that the difference is a fairly small one. Until you reach a certain level of optimization, it's really more a matter of taste. Pick a wizard if you're a planner; pick a sorcerer if you're a spammer or if you prefer to make do with "good enough" rather than trying to always have "perfect."
I was looking at the fact that your sorcerer plan required switching out old summon monsters, and I remembered that sorcerer spells also have to be good at high levels, in addition to the other requirements. For example, sleep is a great spell at level one, but when you get up there in levels, it reaches levels of complete uselessness. There are quite a few spells like that, and there are other spells that tend to retain their value at high levels. Wizards get to take both. Wizards are cool that way. I'm mostly just listing cool things about wizards at this point. Also, intelligence is better than charisma.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I was looking at the fact that your sorcerer plan required switching out old summon monsters, and I remembered that sorcerer spells also have to be good at high levels, in addition to the other requirements. For example, sleep is a great spell at level one, but when you get up there in levels, it reaches levels of complete uselessness. There are quite a few spells like that, and there are other spells that tend to retain their value at high levels. Wizards get to take both. Wizards are cool that way. I'm mostly just listing cool things about wizards at this point. Also, intelligence is better than charisma.

Actually, I rarely use summon monster at all. Clutters the battlefield something awful if you actually do spam the crap out of it. I prefer to do my face-smashing personally and I'm usually clever enough to find away to apply my own spells to a problem rather than dialing up a critter that has just the right SLA. My point in mentioning it was that -if- you need a metric crap-ton of versatility, SM can provide and you don't -have- to hang onto any but the top three for your level, e.g. SM 3, 4, and 5 at level 10. Even if you leave them, you're ultimately only burning 6 out of 34 spells known to a level 20 sorcerer, not counting cantrips.

Sleep is an okay spell at low levels. The full-round casting time can get ugly fast with smarter foes though. Color-spray, on the other hand, only falls to the way-side because its DC becomes too low. Enter: heighten spell; color spray is suddenly viable (though admittedly not spectacular) at all levels as long as the target isn't immune to stunning.

Intelligence Vs Charisma is a wash on arcanists anyway. The only advantage it gives a wizard is a couple more skill points that his spells are obviating anyway while charisma is boosting the save DC's of any SLA's you should happen to have or aquire. Both marginal benefits to the overall class. Charisma does have a -slight- edge in how many different things can be keyed to it ala x stat to y bonus shennanigans.

[eggynack]

Actually, I rarely use summon monster at all. Clutters the battlefield something awful if you actually do spam the crap out of it. I prefer to do my face-smashing personally and I'm usually clever enough to find away to apply my own spells to a problem rather than dialing up a critter that has just the right SLA. My point in mentioning it was that -if- you need a metric crap-ton of versatility, SM can provide and you don't -have- to hang onto any but the top three for your level, e.g. SM 3, 4, and 5 at level 10. Even if you leave them, you're ultimately only burning 6 out of 34 spells known to a level 20 sorcerer, not counting cantrips.

Sleep is an okay spell at low levels. The full-round casting time can get ugly fast with smarter foes though. Color-spray, on the other hand, only falls to the way-side because its DC becomes too low. Enter: heighten spell; color spray is suddenly viable (though admittedly not spectacular) at all levels as long as the target isn't immune to stunning.

Intelligence Vs Charisma is a wash on arcanists anyway. The only advantage it gives a wizard is a couple more skill points that his spells are obviating anyway while charisma is boosting the save DC's of any SLA's you should happen to have or aquire. Both marginal benefits to the overall class. Charisma does have a -slight- edge in how many different things can be keyed to it ala x stat to y bonus shennanigans.
I was mostly talking about summon monster because you were. I think the main point is that the sorcerer can't cheaply pick up spells like polymorph or alter self if they spent their spells known on blasting spells. On the intelligence vs charisma thing, skill points are nice. Knowledges are pretty sweet intrinsically, and a good number of skills is a prerequisite to some good prestige classes. It's not the biggest issue, but it's nice. Intelligence might be the second best statistic to have as your main one after constitution, while charisma might just be the worst. It doesn't really get applied to much, though being great at bluff can be fun.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I was mostly talking about summon monster because you were. I think the main point is that the sorcerer can't cheaply pick up spells like polymorph or alter self if they spent their spells known on blasting spells. On the intelligence vs charisma thing, skill points are nice. Knowledges are pretty sweet intrinsically, and a good number of skills is a prerequisite to some good prestige classes. It's not the biggest issue, but it's nice. Intelligence might be the second best statistic to have as your main one after constitution, while charisma might just be the worst. It doesn't really get applied to much, though being great at bluff can be fun.

Again, while not to my personal taste, summon monster covers -alot- of angles and blasting is one of them, starting with SM3's hellhound. Hound appears, breaths its 2d6 fire breath immediately, then charges on its next turn engaging the enemy and keeping him off of the sorcerer. This can, of course, be supplemental to the sorcerer's own blasting spells.

It's a really good line of spells if you don't mind the extra bodies in play.

If you're polymorphing, you're smashing face directly or boosting the beat-stick not blasting.

The skill requisites of casting PrC's tend to be pretty limited since nearly all dedicated casters only get 2 skill points per level, so that's really not that much help at all.

[Chronos]

The other advantage to Charisma is if you're using charm spells. Getting effective use out of those generally involves making Cha checks.

[Kelb_Panthera]

The other advantage to Charisma is if you're using charm spells. Getting effective use out of those generally involves making Cha checks.

Same goes for planar binding.

Yes, I would happily burn 3 spells know for the planar binding line. It's a plot-hook in a can.

[Spuddles]

Have you considered googling easy bake wizard? Get a hilarious number of spells known and spells per day without relying on the dm to hand you scribing material for your book. You just straight up get more than the sorcerer and we haven't even used acfs.

I can also optimize a sorcerer to basically be a spontaneously casting wizard. That isnt what makes wizards t1. If optimization potential was the measure of power, the healer and warmage would both be T1.

Wizards, right of the box, can ruin your campaign in all of the following ways:
Turns your encounter into toads
Turns into a toad and circumvents your encounter
Turns the fighter into a dire toad to destroy the encounter
Charms your encounter into thinking they're toads
Traps them with a spell like trapping toads in a bucket
Binds a toad demon that is twice his CR to do his bidding
Teleports across the world because he is tired of toads

A sorcerer only gets a couple of ways to do it.

[TypoNinja]

Put simply. A well designed Sorc will be able to break the universe in one or two ways.

A wizard can break the universe in all the ways.

In terms of game mechanisms its down the the fact that wizards get the toys and sorcs get hosed.

First off, spells a level late, limited spell list, and no class features to speak of, and screwed on meta-magic, in exchange for more spells a day spontaneous is not a good trade.

Wizards get spells faster and get the precious bonus feats, and don't have to burn an ACF on metamagic, and get better and more ACF, and even PrC's.
And of course magic item creation.

All this is just the injury to the insult.

All the high level shenanigans a wizard can do to become truly unstoppable, require lots of strange utility spells that only get used a very few times. Or at long intervals (Sequester). But there are a lot of them. A Wizard knows all these spells and can use them day to day and swap back to his more standard adventuring load out when its time to go and lay the smack down.

Picture it another way. There's a boss encounter coming up, each character has 48 hours to prepare. The Sorcerer's approach to combat will stay basically the same, perhaps a few consumable purchases.

The Wizard given 48 hours and knowing exactly what is coming can probably come up with a way to dominate the encounter, trivialize it even. Because he can go and grab all those spells that are really really effective, but only under limited circumstances. The kind of spells a Sorcerer passes over because he needs to make sure his few precious spells known are ones that will be useful frequently. Things like haste, flight, Arcane fusion, Celerity, and defensive measures.

Preparation is where the wizard shows his power over a sorcerer. A wizard will never be stuck using a "good enough" spell, given advance notice a wizard can have the perfect spell ready.

[ps377]

All i can think is that both are equals.. They are gonna be in a party anyway. Everyone will have his role on the game. If the party need something, the wizard may say "ok, i got it but lets do it after i sleep for 8 hours" while the sorcerer may say "erm.. hm.. well.. i just cant..". or in another scenario lets say the party need to be disguised immediately so the wizard is like "what!? i cant have 4 disguise self now!!" but the sorcerer will be like "ok, lets do it".
Its a party game.. Everyone has his role. If any of you wanted to play a single player game, then dnd is not for you..

[ryu]

Why not singleplayer? The game may lose some very real camaraderie without a group, but it's still a complex and fun game to play if you have a dm who's up for it.

[TypoNinja]

Why not singleplayer? The game may lose some very real camaraderie without a group, but it's still a complex and fun game to play if you have a dm who's up for it.

Smaller games (I've played many with only a DM and two players) can actually have upsides. Making sure everybody gets enough facetime for example becomes a lot easier. Combat moves much faster too. Initiative is really easy with only 2 players and a DM too, it will always move either clockwise or counterclockwise around the table starting with whoever rolled highest.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Put simply. A well designed Sorc will be able to break the universe in one or two ways.

A wizard can break the universe in all the ways.

In terms of game mechanisms its down the the fact that wizards get the toys and sorcs get hosed.

First off, spells a level late, limited spell list, and no class features to speak of, and screwed on meta-magic, in exchange for more spells a day spontaneous is not a good trade.

Wizards get spells faster and get the precious bonus feats, and don't have to burn an ACF on metamagic, and get better and more ACF, and even PrC's.
And of course magic item creation.

All this is just the injury to the insult.

All the high level shenanigans a wizard can do to become truly unstoppable, require lots of strange utility spells that only get used a very few times. Or at long intervals (Sequester). But there are a lot of them. A Wizard knows all these spells and can use them day to day and swap back to his more standard adventuring load out when its time to go and lay the smack down.

Picture it another way. There's a boss encounter coming up, each character has 48 hours to prepare. The Sorcerer's approach to combat will stay basically the same, perhaps a few consumable purchases.

The Wizard given 48 hours and knowing exactly what is coming can probably come up with a way to dominate the encounter, trivialize it even. Because he can go and grab all those spells that are really really effective, but only under limited circumstances. The kind of spells a Sorcerer passes over because he needs to make sure his few precious spells known are ones that will be useful frequently. Things like haste, flight, Arcane fusion, Celerity, and defensive measures.

Preparation is where the wizard shows his power over a sorcerer. A wizard will never be stuck using a "good enough" spell, given advance notice a wizard can have the perfect spell ready.

How often do you get two days advance warning though? Btw, that's only enough time to learn a single new spell.

Also, what's the wizard to do with 48 microseconds notice, aka when he's caught by suprise? With half his spells because he left the other half open for mid-day prep' of utility spells? What if that perfect spell happens to allow a save that the enemy passes?

It's absurd to assume that the wizard will never be caught by suprise or that he'll always know exactly the right spell. We call that a schroedinger's wizard.

The sorcerer's "good enough" is just that and the wizard will be using a similar "good enough" option quite often. In practice there's just not much difference between the two beside style.

[ericgrau]

So to prove my point I need a Wizard who can rapidly change out his spell load-out. Has a very large spell load-out. Bring a point to bare on the fact the wizard has more spells because of the ability to learn new spells besides from leveling. Among other things
This sounds like a fun concept to play but I wouldn't do it to prove a point. That just gets annoying. Anyway go with collegiate wizard (Complete Arcane) and such to give you extra spells from leveling. Ideally you'd always have a pile of treasure and a town to buy scrolls from, but that doesn't always happen even with lenient DMs. Sometimes plot gets in the way.

I'd have at least some spells that you can swap in and cast during downtime, then swap another list back in afterwards. Like shrink item due to its day/CL duration. Don't abuse it with falling objects and AMF hats, but there are other useful huge things you can carry around.

For most combats I agree that you'll be disappointed by the inability to have a schroedinger wizard and there won't be much difference there between a sorcerer and a wizard. You'll be surprised constantly if for no other reason than even the DM didn't know ahead of time what he'd be sending at you this week.

[ps377]

Why not singleplayer? The game may lose some very real camaraderie without a group, but it's still a complex and fun game to play if you have a dm who's up for it.

because playing with friends is better than playing alone!! (i will say 3-4 players + 1 dm = 4 person is the perfect size for a party)

[ahenobarbi]

Gray Elf (from Monster Manual 1)
Generalist Wizard 5 / Mage of the Arcane Order 7 (Complete Arcane)

Take Domain Wizard ACF (Transmutation Domain) from Arcana Unearthed
Take Elven Wizard (Races of the Wild) ACF.

Take feats:
1: Collegiate Wizard (Complete Arcane)
3: Whatever meta magic you like
5: Cooperative Spell (wizard bonus)
6: Spell Mastery (Complete Arcane)
9: Uncanny Forethought (Exemplars of Evil)
12: Craft contingent spell

You have about as many slots as sorcerer (+1/level from domain wizard, +1 at highest level from Elven generalist), you can cast INT times a day cast spontaneously any spell you know (as full-round action :smallamused:, and at -2 CL), you can cast spontaneously any Sorcerer/Wizard spell from PHB (but it will take extra full-round action and some more slots).

[Krazzman]

When talking about these things I have learned to talk about "Theoretical Tiers" and "Group/Player-specific Tiers".

It doesn't work if you play a Tier 1 Class, try to optimize but just get to 3rd Level.

In my view the Sorcerer is Stronger. At least in Pathfinder. Of course the Wizard can get new spells in his Book, but a sorcerer can get Pages of Spell Knowledge. Albeit more expensive. But is it really that important to have "ALL the Spells" when your spell list is basically the same everyday anyway?

I have to admit: I get confused by vancian prepared casting. Cleric 2 is hard for me. I hate choosing stuff on a "in-game-daily basis". And if I don't do that I basically am a sorcerer made worse because my spell selection is always the same anyway. A Wizard in my hands hardly breaches T3. A Sorcerer, if I have the right spells I can get to T2. At least that's where I think I am around.

[ahenobarbi]

When talking about these things I have learned to talk about "Theoretical Tiers" and "Group/Player-specific Tiers".

It doesn't work if you play a Tier 1 Class, try to optimize but just get to 3rd Level.

In my view the Sorcerer is Stronger. At least in Pathfinder. Of course the Wizard can get new spells in his Book, but a sorcerer can get Pages of Spell Knowledge. Albeit more expensive. But is it really that important to have "ALL the Spells" when your spell list is basically the same everyday anyway?

The problem is that sorcerers get so few high-level spells known. Like 3. Even if Wizard prepares the same spells every day (and it shouldn't... at very least there is stuff like permanency that you want to cast only a few times) it will have 4-5 different spells of each level (as opposed to sorcerers 3).

[Spuddles]

On the "day-to-day" stuff, a sorc and wiz list look surprisingly similar and the sorcerer probably has the edge thanks to being able to always have the exact right number of black tentacles and dispel magics. And empowered wings of flurry and shaped grease.

But when you need bat repellent, the wizard really pulls through.

[ps377]

The problem is that sorcerers get so few high-level spells known. Like 3. Even if Wizard prepares the same spells every day (and it shouldn't... at very least there is stuff like permanency that you want to cast only a few times) it will have 4-5 different spells of each level (as opposed to sorcerers 3).

You are right, yet i would roll again a sorcerer..
Even better i would create a wiz/src (ultimate magus) even if i never get lvl9 spells.
Or a Src/drd (arcane hierophant) and i will get lvl9 spells.

an with both builds i will have all the spells from a class and spontaneous casting with src (ofcourse i cant spontaneous cast the druid spells) so its even better than only one class

[ericgrau]

The problem is that sorcerers get so few high-level spells known. Like 3. Even if Wizard prepares the same spells every day (and it shouldn't... at very least there is stuff like permanency that you want to cast only a few times) it will have 4-5 different spells of each level (as opposed to sorcerers 3).
3 is wonderful. That's all you really need to be effective. No, the real painful time is levels 5-7 when you have 0, 1 and 2. What you do in both cases is metamagic. Like empowered ray of enfeeblement. Later heighten spell to keep spells like glitterdust useful. Then you tend to have a lot more options. They're a little more narrow than high level spells, but having 15 of them makes up for it. Levels 8 and above are a nice time for a sorcerer. But getting there is a bit of trouble. You have to be very careful with your spells and feats because mistakes hit you 10 times harder at low levels. The rare good level 2 spells like web help the low level hump too. Oh, and I'll cut off any silly nit picks ahead of time and bring up that casters rarely need their move action.

So you get a lot of options either way, planning rarely happens with most DMs, and there doesn't tend to be much combat difference.

Back on topic. That's why I suggested picking some spells for downtime days to really exploit collegate wizard. Get a couple for when you get a chance to prepare for a dungeon ahead of time, but don't bank on it.

For example from core:
1: identify, Nystul's magic aura, ~charm person
2: extended endure elements, ~arcane lock, magic mouth, ~phantom trap
3: explosive runes (but don't stack-abuse), shrink item
4: scrying, charm monster (& keep a minion around, like a beast from an easy forest random encounter so you prep this while travelling)
Check Spell Compendium for more.

[ahenobarbi]

3 is wonderful. That's all you really need to be effective. No, the real painful time is levels 5-7 when you have 0, 1 and 2. What you do in both cases is metamagic. Like empowered ray of enfeeblement.

Good that it works for you :smallsmile:
I liked playing sorcerer at mid-levels but for me choosing just three of Prismatic Sphere, Gate, Foresight, Astral Projection, Shapechange, Time Stop and Wish is to hard a choice.

[Spuddles]

Good that it works for you :smallsmile:
I liked playing sorcerer at mid-levels but for me choosing just three of Prismatic Sphere, Gate, Foresight, Astral Projection, Shapechange, Time Stop and Wish is to hard a choice.

Why settle at 3? Bloodline, Apprentice, Cerebrosis, Sandshaper, Runestaff, Knowstone, Drake Helm, and Nexus Method can get you every 9th level spell worth knowing, and ostensibly, virtually every spell worth knowing.

[Killer Angel]

I need to explain too a group of people why the Sorcerer though also a tier 1 class does not have the same potential as a Wizard.

The groups reasoning being that a Sorcerer has more spells per day in the book, and can cast spontaneously.

(leaving aside that sorc is T2...)
The simple answer is versatility.
The wizard can know more spell than a sorcerer, so he's more versatile and got more potential.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Good that it works for you :smallsmile:
I liked playing sorcerer at mid-levels but for me choosing just three of Prismatic Sphere, Gate, Foresight, Astral Projection, Shapechange, Time Stop and Wish is to hard a choice.

Pick shapechange, gate, and foresight. Gate gets you half of those from called creatures and shapechange gets you the other half by changing into something that has it as a SU.

Wish: shapechange to zodar
Astral projection: gate in a nightmare
Timestop: shapechange into a chronotryn and act twice every round for CL rounds.
Prismatic sphere: spam prismatic wall instead. You're a sorcerer, you get more than one.

[Karoht]

@Pathfinder Sorcerer
How fast can a Wizard change their spells if needed?
Can they change one spell in a Standard Action?
Can they do it in a Swift Action?
Can they change 2 or even 3 spells in a Standard/Swift Action?

Pathfinder Sorcerer with Paragon Surge

Requires Half Elf, or Human with Half-Elf racial heritage feat
3rd Level Spell called Paragon Surge, grants you any feat you can qualify for, for 15 minutes. Extended Arcana (AKA Extra Spell) grants you 1 spell known at your highest spell level, or any two at any level below your highest.
Not enough cheese you say? There's more.
Take the feat Eldritch Heritage (Arcane Bloodline). Hey look it gives you a Familiar or a Bonded item. Cool.
Paragon Surge to get the feat Improved Eldritch Heritage, which grants you 2 spells known at any spell level at level 9, and at level 13 it becomes 3.
3x any spell known on your list, as a standard action, potentially from a wand, or potentially as a Swift action.


Now, in no way am I making an arguement that X is better than Y. Wizard still gets spell levels earlier and has other advantages such as high skills due to high intelligence, both of which are often underestimated.
However I do wonder if Sorcerer with access to Paragon Surge would then count as a Tier 1 or still a Tier 2 admittedly a high Tier 2 (Tier 1.5 maybe?)
Thoughts?

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Sorcerer with Paragon Surge isn't Tier 1 - but a Sage Sorceror (i.e. casts from intelligence) is 'cause they also have a crapload of skills. And skills are at least a bit useful in Pathfinder.

[Karoht]

Sorcerer with Paragon Surge isn't Tier 1 - but a Sage Sorceror (i.e. casts from intelligence) is 'cause they also have a crapload of skills. And skills are at least a bit useful in Pathfinder.
So the difference between T1.5 and T1 in this example is the skill difference? Got it.

Now add on False Priest Archetype (AKA Razmiran Priest Archetype, not to be confused with the PRC of the same name). And as early as possible jump into Cypher Mage (Pathfinder PRC). And carry a massive array of Divine Scrolls (Druid, Cleric, Paladin and Anti-Paladin, Assassin, Inquisitor, etc) and cast 9th Level Arcane as well as 8th Level Divine (at current caster level +1). What does that cause the Sage Sorcerer with Paragon Surge to become then?

TL:DR-Sorcerer can have (rapid) access to more spells than the Wizard.

[Max Caysey]

Can someone please link the tier system? Im not familiar with it!

Thanks

[eggynack]

Can someone please link the tier system? Im not familiar with it!

Thanks

Tier system for classes (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5293). Also, why each class is in its tier (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5256.0).

[Tvtyrant]

Can someone please link the tier system? Im not familiar with it!

Thanks

Here (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=djlsbq5jnlim7ujfth3t4divg2&topic=5293)is what I believe is the most updated post of it. It basically ranks classes by power and versatility, with odd numbers representing versatility steps and even numbers power steps.

[Spuddles]

Sorcerer with Paragon Surge isn't Tier 1 - but a Sage Sorceror (i.e. casts from intelligence) is 'cause they also have a crapload of skills. And skills are at least a bit useful in Pathfinder.

Yes it is.

[Coidzor]

When talking about these things I have learned to talk about "Theoretical Tiers" and "Group/Player-specific Tiers".

I always find that such discussion is part of the reason people get confused and think that a wizard can't be tier 1 because they saw Dave being completely incompetent during a session of drunk gaming. Though I can definitely see the usefulness in discussing play-level.

[Shining Wrath]

Equipment allows each to emulate the other. The sorcerer can buy scrolls and thereby have access to every spell in the book. The wizard can buy wands and thereby spam spells like a sorcerer.

[TypoNinja]

Equipment allows each to emulate the other. The sorcerer can buy scrolls and thereby have access to every spell in the book. The wizard can buy wands and thereby spam spells like a sorcerer.

And the Sorcerer can buy the same wand and spam even more, and the Wizard can buy even more scrolls and know even more spells.

Equipment is irrelevant, saying what a class can do with equipment is pointless, because if its done with equipment, so can every other class.

[Kelb_Panthera]

And the Sorcerer can buy the same wand and spam even more, and the Wizard can buy even more scrolls and know even more spells.

Equipment is irrelevant, saying what a class can do with equipment is pointless, because if its done with equipment, so can every other class.

In the case of wands and scroll (and staves) that's both true and not true. While these items can mitigate the difference between the two classes, they're not immediately and always available and they do ultimately get used up.

They're not, however, automatically useable by all classes. Only a sorcerer or wizard can activate a wand or scroll of a sorc/wiz spell with -no- invested resources beyond the cost of the item itself. All others must expend either build resources, gold resources, or both to be able to use these items.

If you want to discount purchased items altogether, you should technically ignore any but the 40-45ish spells that a wizard automatically gets since he'll have to buy any others beyond that either with gold and/or by expending build resources on collegiate wizard and the like.

[ps377]

Equipment allows each to emulate the other. The sorcerer can buy scrolls and thereby have access to every spell in the book. The wizard can buy wands and thereby spam spells like a sorcerer.

yeap! i agree!

[TypoNinja]

Equipment improves each class, but that's like saying breathing is a good idea. Its a useless statment. Equipment improves all classes, except for rare class specific gear that does unique things equipment isn't going to amount to much compared to the class were buying equipment for.

A fighter would need orders of magnitude more WBL to compete with any full caster. Likewise, if a Wizard is better before the equipment, he'll still be better after it.

[Killer Angel]

Equipment allows each to emulate the other. The sorcerer can buy scrolls and thereby have access to every spell in the book. The wizard can buy wands and thereby spam spells like a sorcerer.

The base chassis is different, and equipment won't change it.
Otherwise, a rogue with UMD would be a T1.

[eggynack]

I think we all just have to accept that the marginal benefit of wealth by level differs from class to class. I mean, it's a thing we know, but it's a tricky thing to measure. Just about the only way we usually look at it is, "to what degree would this class' life be ruined by VoP?" There are a few varying factors that go into this marginal benefit, and I'm not sure what all of them are.

The first one, and the most important, is the degree to which a class absolutely needs wealth by level in order to function properly. This is the part of the fighter's wealth that's taken up by weapons and armor, and is usually the part of the wizard's wealth that's taken up by scribing spells. I'd probably also stick things off of the necessary magic items (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187851) list, that aren't provided by class features. The lower the number is here, the better a class is at using wealth by level for optional purposes. A sorcerer has no need to fill a spell book, but they're more likely to need items to emulate functions that the wizard can fill will versatility.

The second, and maybe the last, is the degree to which a class has access to cool optional items. I'd put stuff like wands and scrolls here, as well as weird extra spells that the wizard won't necessarily need. Different classes intrinsically have access to items that others do not. Using a monk as a central example, this can be as obvious as a sparring dummy of the master, or as subtle as the ability to gain boosts from a variety of stat boosters. The central chunk of this argument, a variety of limited use magic items on a sorcerer or wizard, goes here.

Whether sorcerers or wizards gain more marginal benefit from wealth by level, I'm not sure. However, the idea that you can just discount this aspect of the game entirely, under the assumption that it holds equal for all classes, seems incorrect to me. Equipment improves each class, but it improves each class in a somewhat unique way. I think that this claim even holds true for classes as similar as a wizard and a sorcerer.

[tiercel]

When looking at the difference between vanilla sorcerer and vanilla wizard, it comes in more at the higher levels when there are not only high level spells but also a sufficient number of spells per day that a wizard can actually use magic to divine tomorrow's foes and possible weaknesses/needs.

When you're talking about a wizard who packs a "regular adventuring load" of spells most days, the difference is significantly lessened (sorcerer has fewer, lower level of spells but greater flexibility in casting them and better use of metamagic).

I'm not saying there isn't a "tier" difference between the classes, but if the wizard doesn't regularly optimize his strengths in spell flexibility, then in low-op/mid-op games and/or at low-to-mid levels the difference often isn't that high; so for folks who have the experience that the difference isn't so big, that's probably why.

[Killer Angel]

When looking at the difference between vanilla sorcerer and vanilla wizard, it comes in more at the higher levels when there are not only high level spells but also a sufficient number of spells per day that a wizard can actually use magic to divine tomorrow's foes and possible weaknesses/needs.

When you're talking about a wizard who packs a "regular adventuring load" of spells most days, the difference is significantly lessened (sorcerer has fewer, lower level of spells but greater flexibility in casting them and better use of metamagic).

I'm not saying there isn't a "tier" difference between the classes, but if the wizard doesn't regularly optimize his strengths in spell flexibility, then in low-op/mid-op games and/or at low-to-mid levels the difference often isn't that high; so for folks who have the experience that the difference isn't so big, that's probably why.

Assuming a basic vanilla, no extra spells gained by scrolls, even level (just to favor the sorc), and a casting stat of 16, we have:
spell known by a 6th sorcerer: 4 first; 2 second, 1 third.
spell known by a 6th wizard: 8 first, 4 second, 4 third.

The sorc can cast 4 times its only third lev. spell.
A vanilla wizard, can cast 3 third lev. spells.
A vanilla specialist wizard, can cast 4 third lev. spells.

The difference is staggering even in low-op games and at low levels and IMO, even unexperienced players will quickly notice it.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Assuming a basic vanilla, no extra spells gained by scrolls, even level (just to favor the sorc), and a casting stat of 16, we have:
spell known by a 6th sorcerer: 4 first; 2 second, 1 third.
spell known by a 6th wizard: 8 first, 4 second, 4 third.

The sorc can cast 4 times its only third lev. spell.
A vanilla wizard, can cast 3 third lev. spells.
A vanilla specialist wizard, can cast 4 third lev. spells.

The difference is staggering even in low-op games and at low levels and IMO, even unexperienced players will quickly notice it.

The problem with this line of thinking is that at 6th level even 1st level spells are still relevant. The sorcerer has 7 spells that he can use in whatever situation he's presented with at this level. Unless he was careless with his spell choices, and he's had two opportunities to drop any turds he picked at this point, he'll likely have something he can use.

The 16 spells the wizard -could- use may allow him the perfect solution but, more likely, one of them will only be just good enough, provided he hasn't already used it that day or that he even had it prepared in the first place. With the 11 spell slots he actually has he can't cast all of them in the same day, period. There's also the matter of whether or not he left any slots open, reducing his in-combat versatility for out of combat versatility or vice-versa.

[ahenobarbi]

The problem with this line of thinking is that at 6th level even 1st level spells are still relevant.

Nerveskitter (initiative), Mage Armor (because why not?), Protection from Evil (lol enchantment), Unseen Servant (free actions!), True Strike (situational but sometimes really good), Silent Image (as good as ever), Enlarge Person (nice buff for when fight is not worth using higher-level slot and some utility).

[Killer Angel]

The problem with this line of thinking is that at 6th level even 1st level spells are still relevant. The sorcerer has 7 spells that he can use in whatever situation he's presented with at this level. Unless he was careless with his spell choices, and he's had two opportunities to drop any turds he picked at this point, he'll likely have something he can use.

The 16 spells the wizard -could- use may allow him the perfect solution but, more likely, one of them will only be just good enough, provided he hasn't already used it that day or that he even had it prepared in the first place. With the 11 spell slots he actually has he can't cast all of them in the same day, period.

That's true, but even so, a wizard played by an unexperienced player, is almost forced to diversify... which is its strenght.
I'll pick again the 3rd level, but the reasoning applies also to the other spell's levels.

spell of 3rd lev. Sorcerer: probably Fireball, 'coz is cool.

Spells of 3rd lev. wizard: Fireball (again, it's cool), Fly, Haste, Lightining bolt (just in case).

THe wiz. will probably wander around with Fireball, Fly and Haste memorized.
The same for the lower levels: the wizard will diversify. He may cast a little less spells, but he will be more versatile than the sorc., which is the essence of T1.

Of course, sooner or later the player will discover that maybe a single Fly is too little, but slots will increase, and experience will grow.
To play a sorcerer in an effective way, you need to know what spells are best to be picked.

[Shining Wrath]

Let's do some math.

Give a spell slot per day a score equal to its level squared; that is, a 3rd level spell slot is worth 9 1st level spells.

Then at 6th level (as cited above) with INT or CHR of 16 (one bonus spell per day per levels 1-3):
Sorcerer: 7 1st, 6 2nd, 4 3rd.
Wizard: 5 1st, 4 2nd, 3 3rd.
The score is: 7*1 + 6*4 + 4*9 = 67 Sorc, 4*1 + 4*4 + 3*9 = 47 Wiz.

Go up to level 7.
Sorcerer: 7 1st, 7 2nd, 5 3rd.
Wizard: 5 1st, 4 2nd, 3 3rd, 1 4th.
The score is: 7*1 + 7*4 + 5*9 = 80 Sorc, 5*1 + 4*4 + 3*9 + 16 = 68 Wiz.

Against this must be set the problem that if the sorcerer's one 3rd level spell known happens to be of low utility, half the points or more vanish.

And against that must be set the possibility that the wizard won't find a useful place to cast some of his prepared spells.

I don't see that either is obviously more powerful than the other.

[TuggyNE]

Give a spell slot per day a score equal to its level squared; that is, a 3rd level spell slot is worth 9 1st level spells.

I'd actually suggest making each level twice as valuable as the previous, and including (Focused) Specialist.

Sorcerer: 7/6/4 — 7 + 6*2 + 4*4 = 35; 4, 2, and 1 spells known respectively
Generalist: 4/4/3 — 4 + 4*2 + 3*4 = 24; 8+, 4+, and 4+ spells known respectively
Specialist: 4+1/4+1/3+1 — 5 + 5*2 + 4*4 = 31
Focused Specialist: 3+3/3+3/2+3 — 6 + 6*2 + 5*4 = 38

At 7th level, though, it's kind of a crime not to have at least 18 in your spellcasting stat. :smallannoyed:
Sorcerer: 7/7/5 — 7 + 7*2 + 5*4 = 41; 5, 3, and 2 spells known respectively
Generalist: 5/4/3/2 — 5 + 4*2 + 3*4 + 2*8 = 41; 8+, 4+, 4+, and 2+ spells known respectively
Specialist: 5+1/4+1/3+1/2+1 — 6 + 5*2 + 4*4 + 3*8 = 56
Focused Specialist: 4+3/3+3/2+3/1+3 — 7 + 6*2 + 5*4 + 4*8 = 71

So even weighting high-level slots less (which works against the Wizard), a generalist is only somewhat behind on even levels (which is presumably made up for by their greater versatility) and [focused] specialists do a lot better.

[TypoNinja]

I'd actually suggest making each level twice as valuable as the previous.

Its actually RAW, since Versatile Spellcaster lets you trade two lower level spell slots for one higher level casting, so 2 to 1 would be the expected outcome.

[TuggyNE]

Its actually RAW, since Versatile Spellcaster lets you trade two lower level spell slots for one higher level casting, so 2 to 1 would be the expected outcome.

I'd be hesitant to call it a "RAW" equivalence, but yes, I was thinking of that. (There's also the fact that CR doubles in difficulty every +2, which is conveniently linked with getting another spell level every 2 levels.)

[TypoNinja]

I'd be hesitant to call it a "RAW" equivalence, but yes, I was thinking of that. (There's also the fact that CR doubles in difficulty every +2, which is conveniently linked with getting another spell level every 2 levels.)

Well a good starting point at least, since its a printed example.

Though since you mention it I'm starting to think its not the greatest number either, considering Sorc vs Wizard and Favoured Soul vs Cleric, WotC seems to highly overvalue the ability to spontaneously cast, its likely they have also over valued the ability to combine spell slots as another form of versatility.

[Killer Angel]

Well a good starting point at least, since its a printed example.

Though since you mention it I'm starting to think its not the greatest number either, considering Sorc vs Wizard and Favoured Soul vs Cleric, WotC seems to highly overvalue the ability to spontaneously cast, its likely they have also over valued the ability to combine spell slots as another form of versatility.

The ability to cast spontaneously, is powerful. Sadly, the drawbacks given to the sorcerer, outweight that advantage.
(edit: anyway, T2 is T2, so we're talking a lesser grade of goodness)

[TypoNinja]

The ability to cast spontaneously, is powerful. Sadly, the drawbacks given to the sorcerer, outweight that advantage.
(edit: anyway, T2 is T2, so we're talking a lesser grade of goodness)

Well I mean, hes still a full caster, so were comparing levels of awesome rather than Awesome vs Suck, but in terms of total goodies spontaneous casting from a very limited list no where near as cool as the rest of the goodies wizard holds over sorc.

I prefer a sorcerer over wizard as a character to play, just matter of my enjoyment, less paperwork, but its definitely an inferior choice by the numbers.

[Talya]

I disagree. I think that wizards actually play better in the hands of a person with less experience, as long as they can handle the work. With sorcerers, you pick your sub-optimal spells, and they get stuck that way.

Most sorcerer players put far more research into their spell selection than most wizard players do into what they memorize for the day. For the average player wizard, it's a whimsical thing.

I was a complete noob at playing casters when I played my first sorcerer (and still my favorite character to date.)

My spell list was far from optimal, but it was damned effective just the same:
0 - Arcane Mark, Read Magic, Mage Hand, Detect Magic, Ghost Sound, Light, Message, Prestidigitation, Stick
1 - Enlarge Person, Magic Missile, Nervskitter, Protection from Evil, Lesser Orb of Acid
2 - Alter Self, Detect Throughts, Mirror Image, Phantom Foe, Whirling Blades
3 - Fireball, Greater Mage Armor, Phantom Steed, Dispel Magic
4 - Charm Monster, Orb of Fire, Ruin Delver's Fortune, Assay Spell Resistance
5 - Dominate Person, Improved Blink, Shadow Evocation, Telekinesis
6 - Glass Strike, Icy Fog, Otiluke's Crushing Sphere
7 - Ruby Ray of Reversal, Greater Shadow Conjuration, Greater Teleport
8 - Mind Blank, Polymorph Any Object

Those were selected without trying to break the game, or being a theoretical optimizer in any fashion.

[Karoht]

@Paragon Surge + False Priest Sorcerer
I can optimize a Sorcerer to have the same (or better) depth of spell knowledge a Wizard has. I won't say that building that way hamstrung the build to the point where other optimization options were off the table, but choices were limited.
A Wizard has that depth as a base class feature, and can further optimize from there with few restrictions if any.

I'm hesitant to say it, but I think that the Paragon Surge Sorcerer still falls into T2, upon such realizations.

[Chronos]

Another point is that there are some spells that you really can be pretty sure you'll only want once per day. For instance, once a wizard hits 5th level, an Extended Rope Trick becomes a pretty useful thing to prepare each day, giving you 10 hours of secure rest. A 6th-level sorcerer, though, doesn't gain any benefit from such a single-purpose spell, since you'd almost never be spamming it.

[Shining Wrath]

Another point to consider is that Int gives you more skill points. OTOH, if the party needs a face having someone with high charisma is useful, and the caster shouldn't be the skill monkey.


Another point is that there are some spells that you really can be pretty sure you'll only want once per day. For instance, once a wizard hits 5th level, an Extended Rope Trick becomes a pretty useful thing to prepare each day, giving you 10 hours of secure rest. A 6th-level sorcerer, though, doesn't gain any benefit from such a single-purpose spell, since you'd almost never be spamming it.

And this is where the ability to purchase scrolls helps sorcerers a lot.

[Coidzor]

Most sorcerer players put far more research into their spell selection than most wizard players do into what they memorize for the day. For the average player wizard, it's a whimsical thing.

I think it's hard to say for certain, but my impression was always that spells were selected in about the same way between the two classes with the main difference being that the wizard can make impulse selections now and then outside of the level up paradigm.

[Spuddles]

Wizards get a hell of a lot more out of persistent spell abuse.

If I was rating high charop builds, that's where I see wizards pulling ahead- incantatrix, spelldancer, red wizard, etc.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Another point to consider is that Int gives you more skill points. OTOH, if the party needs a face having someone with high charisma is useful, and the caster shouldn't be the skill monkey.



And this is where the ability to purchase scrolls helps sorcerers a lot.

For rope trick a schema or eternal wand is a better choice than a pile of scrolls. Even a regular wand would be more cost effective in the long-term.