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View Full Version : Non-dippable Fighter//Adept Gestalt



Cheiromancer
2013-06-11, 10:35 AM
I read somewhere that a fighter//adept gestalt would be a good upgrade to the standard fighter; comparable to tier 4 and (maybe) tier 3 classes. I like the idea, but it occurs to me that such a class would be very good for dipping - maybe too good. Too many people just dip into fighter as it is; making it a more attractive dip doesn't really help. I am trying to think of an elegant way of making it so that a character who takes levels of a fighter-adept would have a strong incentive not to merely dip in it.

One thought I had was that the adept powers would only kick in past the 2 or 4 levels that one normally dips in fighter. Maybe in an escalating fashion, so that up to fighter 4 there is no gestalt (fighters are fine at lower levels) and at higher levels there are full adept levels. The intermediate levels might look like this:

fighter 1 - 4 (no gestalt)
fighter 5 // adept 2
fighter 6 // adept 4
fighter 7 // adept 6
fighter 8 // adept 8
fighter 9 - 20 (full gestalt)

Five or more levels is not really a dip, but a substantial commitment.

I was thinking that rather than getting a familiar at level 2, the adept spellcasting actually is the familiar; a spirit guide similar to the Hexblade's dark companion, but invisible. The verbal and somatic components of a spell would be the character invoking the spirit and asking it to produce the desired effect. The spirit guide would have to be within 5 feet of the character for spellcasting to take place, and would be detectable by anyone who can see invisible things. I was thinking that the spells could be cast spontaneously off of the adept spell list. The character would need to provide any material components ("Take this offering, O spirit, and grant the favor!") but would not need a divine focus. Or if they do, it is a carving of the spirit itself; an animal, if the spirit guide is an animal, or a figurine if the spirit guide is an ancestor or something.

Rather than being dispelled for 24 hours like the dark companion, a spirit guide affected by a dispel magic would be suppressed for 1-4 rounds, as a magic item. It is a separate entity from the character, and so does not use the character's wisdom. I was thinking the wisdom (for DC's and bonus spells) would be 12 + 1/2 x fighter level. So Wis 14 at level 5, Wis 15 at levels 6 and 7, and so on, up to Wis 22 at level 20. (Besides avoiding MADness, this also encourages staying with the fighter class).

Now I know that one of the attractions of playing a fighter is to avoid messing around with spell lists. However, a fighter already has to ask a party member for magical help to cure status effects, provide buffs and healing, etc.. Why not just ask a handy spirit? The adept spell list is short enough that it is not too much bother to keep track of, but has enough on it to give the fighter more versatility and self sufficiency.

Although the goal is to encourage people to stay with the fighter class and the spirit guide is distinct from the fighter, I am tempted to allow the fighter//adept to take a prestige class that advances divine spell casting. Adepts have inferior spell selection, and only get up to 5th level spells, so this won't do any harm. And it also means that an 8th level orc fighter//adept could qualify for hexer.

Questions? Comments? Should the spell list include the spells from one domain among the spells known like in Eberron? How would you make a non-dippable fighter//adept?

Pyromancer999
2013-06-11, 11:18 AM
It's an alright "fix" for the fighter. It's even mentioned in the guide to power tiers by JaronK that one way to fix the gap in power between tiers would be to let Tier 4 classes(like the Adept) get free gestalting with Tier 5 or 6 classes(like the Fighter). However, people who want to play a combat class with spellcasting or their own special combat mechanisms are much more likely to play the Duskblade/Hexblade or the Warblade instead. These classes afford the fighter access to magic or their own set of effects that can somemwhat mimic what magic does for them, and most likely do it in a better manner that is both more dippable and powerful than a dip in in this class would.

As for the Spirit Guide, it sort of just makes things needlessly complicated, even though you've said you're going with the Adept spell list because it's short, and thus easier to manage, as well as making it easier for classes with access to 3rd level spellcasting or a couple scrolls of Dispel Magic to shut down their spellcasting and take them out in the 1-4 round interval it's gone, which you do not mention how to determine the exact timing for that. Also, if people want a spellcasting class with a spirit guide, a lot of them are more likely to go for the Spirit Shaman from Complete Divine.

So, to sum it up: It would be fine power-wise to play this, but there are a lot of better options out there for people who want to play an interesting melee class, with or without magic.

Grod_The_Giant
2013-06-11, 11:19 AM
Delaying the casting progression a few levels is a pretty good idea, as long as you don't also give them 1/2 caster level. For simplicity's sake, you could probably also make him a spontaneous caster. From the entire list, even, Warmage style-- it's short and thematic enough for that.

Deepbluediver
2013-06-11, 12:53 PM
I don't understand why the addition of adept makes the gestalt "too good for dipping". My understanding was that you didn't want to dip spellcasters unless you where going to use a PrC to continue the progression. And if that's the plan, I would think there are better options.

Cheiromancer
2013-06-11, 01:18 PM
I don't understand why the addition of adept makes the gestalt "too good for dipping". My understanding was that you didn't want to dip spellcasters unless you where going to use a PrC to continue the progression. And if that's the plan, I would think there are better options.

I was thinking that adding a good save, 1st level spells (without ASF), a familiar and all knowledge skills to the fighter chassis (good BAB, armor and weapon proficiencies, bonus feat at first level) was a move in the wrong direction. It would make it *more* likely that someone would take a one or two level dip, rather than less likely.



As for the Spirit Guide, it sort of just makes things needlessly complicated, even though you've said you're going with the Adept spell list because it's short, and thus easier to manage, as well as making it easier for classes with access to 3rd level spellcasting or a couple scrolls of Dispel Magic to shut down their spellcasting and take them out in the 1-4 round interval it's gone, which you do not mention how to determine the exact timing for that. Also, if people want a spellcasting class with a spirit guide, a lot of them are more likely to go for the Spirit Shaman from Complete Divine.

Thanks for the feedback. I semi-agree about the complexity: it is hard to describe, but I think it would be easy to play. The dispel magic thing doesn't worry me; most of the time the character will be doing fighter things in combat; buffs and healing is for out of combat. The interval is the same as for a magic item, so use 1d4.

I had forgotten about the Spirit Shaman, but I don't think mechanically it is similar; lower BAB, better spells, no fighter feats. A different term should be used for the entity that is invoked by the fighter//adept to cast spells.

edit: I was thinking about how the druid's class features are stronger than some classes, and thought: why not give the fighter the ability to call a familiar at 5th level, and give the familiar the casting ability of a domain adept? Instead of a druid having a mini-fighter, the fighter could have a mini-spellcaster. A few tweaks would include:

The familiar's wisdom is 12 + 1/2 * fighter level.
The familiar casts spontaneously from its spell list. (The spell list of a domain adept is that of the adept plus the domain spells of one cleric domain of the player's choice.)
The share spell ability allows the fighter to be affected by the familiar's spells instead of the other way around.
The familiar could be replaced as a druid's animal companion (in case of the familiar's death, or to get a new domain.)