Sorcerer/Favored Soul

[Ignis6669]

Hey everyone,
I've been thinking about running a character that is split between Sorcerer and Favored Soul. I'm not really sure why. I think that I really just like the theme of inherent power. And mechanically I prefer them to prepared casters.

However, I realize that this isn't really an optimized build. So I thought that I would pop in here and see if you all had any ideas on how to make it playable. I'd appreciate any tips. Any and all sources (No homebrew though, and 3rd party on a case by case basis) are up for consideration.

Thanks guys!

Edit:
After the initial replies I'm probably good on Early Entry tips & Tricks.

Does anyone have any suggestions for feats? I know that I haven't given you much to work off of thematically, but I'm open to some ideas or general suggestions. With the number of spells he's going to have I thought about toying with some Reserve feats.

I also thought about going with the Spell Shield ACF. You know, just in case something tries to eat my face. Any ideas on that?

[dascarletm]

You could go a dual progression PRC.

[the_david]

Yes, mystic theurge would help... A little.

[Ignis6669]

Yeah, I considered that. MT was my first thought, but entry is going to come late with these classes. So Maybe pair it with two Practiced Caster feats? Or is there maybe another Theurge class?

[Dessembrae]

Go Sorceror at first level and take the feat Precocious Apprentice from Complete Arcane. Follow up with 4 levels of Favoured Soul, then into Mystic Theurge. Whether or not Precocious Apprentice qualifies you for Mystic Theurge is up to your DM, but otherwise qualifying for Mystic Theurge will gimp you pretty hard, and you'll never get 9th level spells on either side.


If you can use Precocious Apprentice to qualify, take more Favoured Soul levels or a divine casting PrC after you finish Mystic Theurge, as you'll be able to reach 9th level divine spells while having 5th level sorceror spells on the side. If you spend one level on advancing your arcane spellcasting you can get 6th level arcane spells while keeping 9th level divine spells.

[Fouredged Sword]

I would actually suggest the following

Sha'ir 4 - 5/ favored soul 1 / Mystic Thurge 10 / Sha'ir X

Sha'ir can enter mystic thurge without multiclassing, so you can avoid taking any odd feats to qualify for mystic thurge.

[navar100]

How much 3rd party can you go? Can you use Pathfinder? Oracle, as single class, might fit the concept. Oracle gives you the spontaneous divine spellcasting. You don't get spontaneous arcane casting, but depending on the Mystery you choose you can get a feel for the arcane. Flame Mystery, for example, obviously gives you lots of fire-themed attacks in addition to bonus spells like Fireball. Dark Tapestry gives you polymorphing, a cold attack, and Phantasmal Killer among others.

If no Pathfinder, never mind then.

[Ignis6669]

I would actually suggest the following

Sha'ir 4 - 5/ favored soul 1 / Mystic Thurge 10 / Sha'ir X

Sha'ir can enter mystic thurge without multiclassing, so you can avoid taking any odd feats to qualify for mystic thurge.

That is a neat idea. I may have to toy with that a bit.

[Ignis6669]

How much 3rd party can you go? Can you use Pathfinder? Oracle, as single class, might fit the concept. Oracle gives you the spontaneous divine spellcasting. You don't get spontaneous arcane casting, but depending on the Mystery you choose you can get a feel for the arcane. Flame Mystery, for example, obviously gives you lots of fire-themed attacks in addition to bonus spells like Fireball. Dark Tapestry gives you polymorphing, a cold attack, and Phantasmal Killer among others.

If no Pathfinder, never mind then.

Pathfinder isn't popular here... But I can always try to model something after the idea.

[Grim Reader]

Precocious Apprentice got ruled not to work.

However, Heighten Spell and Versatile Spellcaster got ruled to work. Since both sides are spontaneous, You should be able to go MT from level 3.

[Cruiser1]

However, Heighten Spell and Versatile Spellcaster got ruled to work. Since both sides are spontaneous, You should be able to go MT from level 3.
That means enter Mystic Theurge after level 3. You need 6 ranks of Knowledge (Arcana) and Knowledge (Religion) to enter Mystic Theurge. That means even with early entry for the spell level requirement, your first level of MT can't be before level 4. Also need to take the feat Education (ECS) or something like it to ensure both Knowledge skills are class skills for those three levels.

Sanctum Spell should work too. That allows early entry with a single feat instead of two. Then you can do Sorcerer 2/Favored Soul 1/Mystic Theurge 10 for your first 13 levels. Are there any arcane/divine dual advancing PrC's other than MT that can be used for levels 14+?

[Gavinfoxx]

I personally like Mystic better than Favored Soul...

[Deepbluediver]

Yeah, I considered that. MT was my first thought, but entry is going to come late with these classes. So Maybe pair it with two Practiced Caster feats? Or is there maybe another Theurge class?

There's the True Necromancer, but from what little I've read its generally considered to be worse than the MT. Still, if the flavor appeals to you, maybe go that route instead.

[Ignis6669]

Maybe if I took a flaw and was human sorcerer at level 1 I could do Able Learner, Heighten Spell and Versatile Spellcaster? Which would allow me to keep the skills that I needed. I mean, it seems unfortunate that I would burn a feat on that, but if it makes it work a bit faster it may be worth it.

[Ignis6669]

I personally like Mystic better than Favored Soul...

I'm not familiar with the Mystic. Where can I find the information on it?


There's the True Necromancer, but from what little I've read its generally considered to be worse than the MT. Still, if the flavor appeals to you, maybe go that route instead.

Yeah, I'm not sure that I could play a Necromancer kind of character. I appreciate the thought though.

[Gavinfoxx]

Mystic is in Dragonlance Campaign Setting.

[Deepbluediver]

I've been thinking about running a character that is split between Sorcerer and Favored Soul. I'm not really sure why. I think that I really just like the theme of inherent power. And mechanically I prefer them to prepared casters.

It only just now occurs to me; have you considered playing as a warlock? If you fluff it to be a bloodline-related thing instead of a pact, that gets you the inherent power feeling, and it's got the same feel as having near-unlimited casting, which is sort of what the dual-spellcaster progression does.

[Ignis6669]

Mystic is in Dragonlance Campaign Setting.

Got it. I've heard of that, but I've never really looked through it. I'll have to check it out.


It only just now occurs to me; have you considered playing as a warlock? If you fluff it to be a bloodline-related thing instead of a pact, that gets you the inherent power feeling, and it's got the same feel as having near-unlimited casting, which is sort of what the dual-spellcaster progression does.

That's an idea. I'll have to glance through the Warlock entry again. Thanks for the suggestion.

[Waker]

That's an idea. I'll have to glance through the Warlock entry again. Thanks for the suggestion.

Should you go with the Warlock, there is a theurge option for both Arcane and Divine. Sadly the Eldritch Disciple (Divine) requires Turn/Rebuke Undead, since there are obviously no Divine Casters without Turn/Rebuke Undead. Y'know, except for Druid, Ranger, Archivist, Shugenja, Favored Soul, Spirit Shaman...
Both classes are in Complete Mage (Eldritch Disciple/Theurge).

[Snowbluff]

Seconding Mystic Theurge aft using Heighten and Versatile Spellcaster. Versatile is so good I'll suggest using it regardless.


Should you go with the Warlock, there is a theurge option for both Arcane and Divine. Sadly the Eldritch Disciple (Divine) requires Turn/Rebuke Undead, since there are obviously no Divine Casters without Turn/Rebuke Undead. Y'know, except for Druid, Ranger, Archivist, Shugenja, Favored Soul, Spirit Shaman...
Both classes are in Complete Mage (Eldritch Disciple/Theurge).
To be fair, the class actually has a use for Turn Undead attempts. Now, for every other Divine PrC, there is no excuse for the wonky requirements.

[Waker]

To be fair, the class actually has a use for Turn Undead attempts. Now, for every other Divine PrC, there is no excuse for the wonky requirements.
I know, but it irks me when they do that with a PrC. How many PrCs restrict themselves only to casters who use a spellbook or use Bardic Music?
Would've been nice if they just had the class ability and included a note saying you could expend uses of Turn Undead or even Wildshape to get extra uses.

[Jack_Simth]

There's the True Necromancer, but from what little I've read its generally considered to be worse than the MT. Still, if the flavor appeals to you, maybe go that route instead.
Of itself, yes. But it might make an OK topper to a build using MT. Something like...

Sorcerer-2/Favoured Soul-1/MT-10/TN-7 = 18th level Sorcerer, 16th level Favoured Soul. 9th level Arcane, 8th level Divine.

Granted, it'd be better as a Cleric-2/Wizard-1/MT-10/TN-7 (17th level Wizard, 17th level Cleric - double 9ths), but the OP doesn't want prepared casting.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Mystics (DLCS) are Wis-SAD spontaneous casters that can nab Turn Undead if they choose the Sun Domain as their chosen domain.

[Snowbluff]

I know, but it irks me when they do that with a PrC. How many PrCs restrict themselves only to casters who use a spellbook or use Bardic Music?
Would've been nice if they just had the class ability and included a note saying you could expend uses of Turn Undead or even Wildshape to get extra uses.

Well, the problem with druid would be the terribly clashing fluff. The writers usually had the sort of thing in mind when writing the PrCs. Warlocks usually have no connection with nature, save for the few faekind that seemed to come up afterwards. The default fluff with 'Lock is "DEMONS! DEVILS!" Where as druids have nothing to do with the extremes where these creatures dwell.

Sorry for the mini-rant. I like warlock.

[Ignis6669]

Thanks for the ideas guys. I'm probably set for early entry stuff.

Does anyone have any suggestions for feats? I know that I haven't given you much to work off of thematically, but I'm open to some ideas or general suggestions. With the number of spells he's going to have I thought about toying with some Reserve feats.

I also thought about going with the Spell Shield ACF. You know, just in case something tries to eat my face. Any ideas on that?

[Jack_Simth]

Thanks for the ideas guys. I'm probably set for early entry stuff.

Does anyone have any suggestions for feats? I know that I haven't given you much to work off of thematically, but I'm open to some ideas or general suggestions. With the number of spells he's going to have I thought about toying with some Reserve feats.

... unless you're going to be using them for trapfinding, mining, or some such, there's really very little reason for them. You're really not expected to run out of spell slots in battle. Everyone benefits from the temp HP from Minor Shapeshift, and a little work with Detect Magic, Summon Elemental, and Acidic Splatter can deal with most traps... but for the most part, Reserve Feats tie up your high-level spells to get you more uses of low-level equivalents. You're going to have lots of low-level slots... and as a Spontaneous caster, unless your DM is really in to endurance runs, you're extremely unlikely to run out of spell slots. The Reserve Feats are unlikely to be worthwhile for you (except, as mentioned, minor shapeshift; swift action temp hp is nice).

You probably want to look into feats that increase your caster level and spells known (bloodline feats from Dragon Compendium come to mind, but there's a few others). Metamagic to get more bang out of the spells you have (especially Heighten - keeps things like Glitterdust, Stinking Cloud, and Web from becoming irrelevant at later levels). Practiced Spellcaster is an obvious choice.


I also thought about going with the Spell Shield ACF. You know, just in case something tries to eat my face. Any ideas on that?

[re_e]

Of itself, yes. But it might make an OK topper to a build using MT. Something like...

Sorcerer-2/Favoured Soul-1/MT-10/TN-7 = 18th level Sorcerer, 16th level Favoured Soul. 9th level Arcane, 8th level Divine.

Granted, it'd be better as a Cleric-2/Wizard-1/MT-10/TN-7 (17th level Wizard, 17th level Cleric - double 9ths), but the OP doesn't want prepared casting.

Sorcerer-2/Favored Soul-1/Mystic Theurge-10/Wildrunner-1/Arcane Hierophant-6 is better, 18th level sorcerer, 17 favored soul, ignore asf and fast movement. Unfortunately wildrunner is elf/half-elf only, requires cc skills and endurance feat.
Note that the favored soul have a acf (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20070227x) that trades knowledge (arcana) for knowledge (religion).

You can also try the Spontaneous Divine Casters (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/spontaneousDivineCasters.htm) variants instead of favored soul, or a arcane/divine generic spellcaster (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm#spellcaster).

[Ignis6669]

You can also try the Spontaneous Divine Casters (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/spontaneousDivineCasters.htm) variants instead of favored soul, or a arcane/divine generic spellcaster (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm#spellcaster).

I thought about those generic classes, but I've never had a DM be okay with using them, so I'm trying to stay away. It's an idea worth filing away though. :smallsmile:

[Bromidrosis]

Quick question (I actually made an account just to comment): why go Sorcerer 2 / Favored Soul 1, rather than the other way around? It seems like the better saves alone would be worth the marginal tradeoff in divine vs arcane casting power. Am I missing something?

[mattie_p]

Quick question (I actually made an account just to comment): why go Sorcerer 2 / Favored Soul 1, rather than the other way around? It seems like the better saves alone would be worth the marginal tradeoff in divine vs arcane casting power. Am I missing something?

Sorc/Wiz generally have a better spell list than cleric/favored soul. That's pretty much the reason. Yes, more 9th level spells are better than a save boost.

Oh, hey, and welcome aboard to our strange addiction!

[Vizzerdrix]

Kobold sorc-1/Favored Soul-2/MT-7/Legacy Champion-10 can be strong and is easy to pull off.

[TypoNinja]

Ahh Favored Soul. How I loved your premise. How I loathe your implementation.

The idea was simple enough, its a divine Sorcerer! It could have been amazing!

The Execution was oh so heinous. Not SAD anymore, Slower casting progression, No domains, which step on the margin of more spells a day pretty hard. Worse no domain powers. No turn undead pool. (despite in my opinion thinking the idea of turning undead, channeling raw divine power, being perfect in the Favored Soul's flavor.)

Trade all the goodies for slower spells, and class features that are nearly useless. Weee free weapon focus! Energy resistance? I have cleric casting, what on earth made you think energy resistance was a class feature I just had to have? Can I trade it back for my Domains? Wings! Awesome, Flight is great... oh 17th level. Little late to be all that useful. Likewise the DR actually isn't terrible since its not /magic but as a 20th level capstone, not impressive and kind of late. If I decide I just have to have DR 10/material, were-something with only 1HD seems like a better option.

That said however I am playing a dual caster to mystic thurge in a game currently and having a blast, I went Cleric Sorc. Versatile Spellcaster is absolutely amazing. Even if you aren't using it for early entry shenanigans like I did get it anyway. Its got a loophole so wide you can't really call it a loop hole. Check this out.


You can use two spell slots of the same level to cast a spell you know that is one level higher.

Nowhere does it say anything about the spells needing to come from the same spell list, or class!

Turn two cleric spells into a higher level Sorcerer Spell. turn two Sorcerer spells into a Favoured soul spell. Spend one from each to cast one of either.

You practically get to merge your spell pools! How freaking cool is that?

Also, take precocious apprentice, even if you aren't using it for early entry, its still an extra 2nd level spell slot you get to keep forever. Whether it counts as an extra known as well is more of a grey area, ask your DM.

Oh yea, and you get a +2 to spellcraft, whoopiee :P

Alas, I've never found a divine version of Precocious Apprentice, if you find one buried in a dragon mag somewhere let me know.

[Ignis6669]

Kobold sorc-1/Favored Soul-2/MT-7/Legacy Champion-10 can be strong and is easy to pull off.

Where would you want to put those Legacy Champion level benefits? I mean, three of them on MT, but then what?



Alas, I've never found a divine version of Precocious Apprentice, if you find one buried in a dragon mag somewhere let me know.

I imagine that if it actually existed someone on the boards would have pointed it out in a previous thread... I guess I could just ask a DM to approve it working for divine casters.

[Deepbluediver]

Its got a loophole so wide you can't really call it a loop hole. Check this out.
...
You practically get to merge your spell pools! How freaking cool is that?

Now I'm kind of curious- do you think this was the original writer's intent? Or where there some lines left out of the feat description that would have kept it limited to only the max spell level normally available and not allowed you to mix and match?

[Waker]

It would be nice if Ultimate Magus didn't specify preparing spells from a spellbook. I think a Sha'ir/Sorcerer/Ultimate Magus/Mystic Theurge would be a fun idea.

[Snowbluff]

It would be nice if Ultimate Magus didn't specify preparing spells from a spellbook. I think a Sha'ir/Sorcerer/Ultimate Magus/Mystic Theurge would be a fun idea.

I really wish DFI/Warlock theurged into Ultimate Magus or Eldritch Theurge could be a thing.

[Vizzerdrix]

Where would you want to put those Legacy Champion level benefits? I mean, three of them on MT, but then what?

All you want the class for is the 8 levels that say +1 to existing class features. Apply that to MT. And as a kobold you can preform the ritual that gets you another level of Sorc casting.

[Ignis6669]

All you want the class for is the 8 levels that say +1 to existing class features. Apply that to MT. And as a kobold you can preform the ritual that gets you another level of Sorc casting.

Can you do that? It sounds.... Fishy to me.

[Vizzerdrix]

Meh. It's less fishy than some other ways of doing the same thing, and MT is a weak class anyways.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Ahh Favored Soul. How I loved your premise. How I loathe your implementation.

The idea was simple enough, its a divine Sorcerer! It could have been amazing!

The Execution was oh so heinous. Not SAD anymore, Slower casting progression, No domains, which step on the margin of more spells a day pretty hard. Worse no domain powers. No turn undead pool. (despite in my opinion thinking the idea of turning undead, channeling raw divine power, being perfect in the Favored Soul's flavor.)

Trade all the goodies for slower spells, and class features that are nearly useless. Weee free weapon focus! Energy resistance? I have cleric casting, what on earth made you think energy resistance was a class feature I just had to have? Can I trade it back for my Domains? Wings! Awesome, Flight is great... oh 17th level. Little late to be all that useful. Likewise the DR actually isn't terrible since its not /magic but as a 20th level capstone, not impressive and kind of late. If I decide I just have to have DR 10/material, were-something with only 1HD seems like a better option.

That said however I am playing a dual caster to mystic thurge in a game currently and having a blast, I went Cleric Sorc. Versatile Spellcaster is absolutely amazing. Even if you aren't using it for early entry shenanigans like I did get it anyway. Its got a loophole so wide you can't really call it a loop hole. Check this out.

Have you seen the Mystic from the Dragonlance Campaign Setting? SAD Wisdom and access to a single domain (and if you choose Sun domain, you get Turn Undead). On the other hand, it's got about as many class features as the sorceror does, and it's got the traditional slower spellcasting of spontaneous casters.

[TypoNinja]

Now I'm kind of curious- do you think this was the original writer's intent? Or where there some lines left out of the feat description that would have kept it limited to only the max spell level normally available and not allowed you to mix and match?

Was it the writers intent? Based on the usual low power of example characters? Not a chance. I think the creators expected me to give up 2nd level spell slots to squeeze out another fireball. I think the creators pictured a single class Sorcerer using it to follow up on the theme of prepared casting getting even more spontaneous choice.

I think they never even stopped to think what a Thurge could do with this, let alone a Favored Soul/Sorc thruge.

It is RAW though, for whatever reason, its one of the most brief, and permissive feat texts out there, use it for all its worth.

Then again, you just went two delayed casting classes to qualify for a dual casting PrC that comes with no class features, that means you are even further behind in spell levels and have no goodies to make up for it. Versatile spellcaster makes your choice effective, not over powered. Especially at very low levels when you can run out of spells fast, being able to turn those cantrips into something useful, and being able to consume cleric spell slots for more wizard spells is practically essential if you don't have a narcoleptic party.

[Ignis6669]

Meh. It's less fishy than some other ways of doing the same thing, and MT is a weak class anyways.

Well, that is a fair point. :smallbiggrin:


Have you seen the Mystic from the Dragonlance Campaign Setting? SAD Wisdom and access to a single domain (and if you choose Sun domain, you get Turn Undead). On the other hand, it's got about as many class features as the sorceror does, and it's got the traditional slower spellcasting of spontaneous casters.

Someone mentioned it earlier. I don't have a copy of that book though, so I've been trying to glean some information about it online. I haven't really spent much time on it though, to be honest.

[Jeff the Green]

That said however I am playing a dual caster to mystic thurge in a game currently and having a blast, I went Cleric Sorc. Versatile Spellcaster is absolutely amazing. Even if you aren't using it for early entry shenanigans like I did get it anyway. Its got a loophole so wide you can't really call it a loop hole. Check this out.



Nowhere does it say anything about the spells needing to come from the same spell list, or class!

Turn two cleric spells into a higher level Sorcerer Spell. turn two Sorcerer spells into a Favoured soul spell. Spend one from each to cast one of either.

You practically get to merge your spell pools! How freaking cool is that?

Ooh, tasty! Don't clerics count as knowing their entire list, too? :smallamused:

[TypoNinja]

Ooh, tasty! Don't clerics count as knowing their entire list, too? :smallamused:

Sort of. The actual text of the class doesn't say "know" it's


A cleric may prepare and cast any spell on the cleric spell list, provided that he can cast spells of that level, but he must choose which spells to prepare during his daily meditation.

So its sort of "Ask your DM" territory.

However you do get to spontaneously cast any Cure/Inflict, so you could still use that for early entry tricks.