Can non-casters use Craft feats?

[flamewolf393]

Specifically I want the craft magic arms and armor. If I have the appropriate craft skill, can I just use a scroll/wand/hired wizard to provide the needed spell/spells? Or do I have to be a caster that can cast the spell myself?

[Harrow]

First of all, all Craft feats have a Caster Level prerequisite, the one you want specifically has one of 5. Now, if you can get that, spell prerequisites can be met by having someone else cast them, but AFAIK +X weapons and armor also have a Caster Level prerequisite (equal to X*3) and I'm not sure if you can have other people meet that for you.

However, all these problems can be overcome by taking levels in Battlesmith out of Races of Stone

[Coidzor]

There's a way in Pathfinder to do so but it's limited as to what one can craft (mostly weapons and armor, IIRC) and there's some magical items(specifically forges, IIRC, and dwarven ones at that) that let non-casters use them to craft and grant the use of certain craft feats to them, IIRC.

[Phelix-Mu]

There are a couple ways to acquire the ability to use a select group of Item Creation feats as a non-caster. Both probably should be run by the DM to make sure he'll support these rules, although the first is pretty straightforward.

1.) Craft Magic Arms and Armour can be acquired through the Battlesmith PrC. It's a good method, too, since that PrC otherwise has some nice class features for dwarves. Race specific.

2.) There is an affiliation in PHB2, I believe it's gnome specific, something something of the Golden Hammer, off the top of my head. Anyway, if you have a high enough rank in the affiliation, you gain the ability to use Item Creation feats (though I think it's only a choice of one of two options). Anyway, see if the DM will allow there to be a Craft Guild/Craft God Church with similar rules that would allow anyone to enter. There are rules for new affiliations in PHB2 and for churches in Complete Champion. Affiliations in general are an excellent way for a DM to reward characters for engaging in non-combat related role play, as well as a way to bring a depth of NPCs and novel interactions and resources to the table. I've always enjoyed the way they enhance my campaigns.

So, not great options. There was a feat in a Dragon Magazine, Master Artisan (?), or some such, that allowed one to enhance one's creations, but they are pretty mediocre improvements compared to magic.

I believe there are rules for cooperating on the creation of magic items, but I'm not sure a mundane crafter could bring much to the table, since most magic item creation feats assume that the item to be enchanted has already been crafted (craft times for the base item aren't included in the enchanting times).

[Eldonauran]

All you really need is a caster level in order to take a crafting feat. Having an innate spell-like ability is enough. Able to cast Light once per day, is enough.

You will need someone to be able to supply certain components for crafting things that you can't cast, but you can hire someone to do that. Still cheaper than paying listed cost.

[Malvanis]

There is a magic item in Races of Stone. It is a forge that allows the smith using it to craft as if they had the craft arms and armor feat.

[ArcturusV]

I mean, if you can get around the Caster Level issue of the Feat Pre-req itself, it sounds like it should work out. Yes, you'd have to pay a caster who has the appropriate levels and spells to help you. Possibly for several days which can get expensive. And pay out the Experience and the Material Cost on top of that. At that point with the stacking of paying a spellcaster, on top of paying the cost of making the weapon... it's almost a better deal just to go to a local merchant, Or go 30' per round movement rate discount, in my estimation of it.

Say you want to make something like... +3 Full Plate Armor as an example. That comes out to what? 1,650 + 6,000 in enhancements. So you're paying out 4,650 GP, 306 XP just for crafting it. Then you have to pay a spellcaster for his services, at least level 9. Which comes out to 360 gold per day. Which over the 6 days needed for Enchanting comes out to 1,960 GP. So your total out for this is 6,610 and 306 XP. Which is only 40 GP cheaper than just buying it on the market. I'd rather cash out 40 GP than 306 XP myself.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I mean, if you can get around the Caster Level issue of the Feat Pre-req itself, it sounds like it should work out. Yes, you'd have to pay a caster who has the appropriate levels and spells to help you. Possibly for several days which can get expensive. And pay out the Experience and the Material Cost on top of that. At that point with the stacking of paying a spellcaster, on top of paying the cost of making the weapon... it's almost a better deal just to go to a local merchant, Or go 30' per round movement rate discount, in my estimation of it.

Say you want to make something like... +3 Full Plate Armor as an example. That comes out to what? 1,650 + 6,000 in enhancements. So you're paying out 4,650 GP, 306 XP just for crafting it. Then you have to pay a spellcaster for his services, at least level 9. Which comes out to 360 gold per day. Which over the 6 days needed for Enchanting comes out to 1,960 GP. So your total out for this is 6,610 and 306 XP. Which is only 40 GP cheaper than just buying it on the market. I'd rather cash out 40 GP than 306 XP myself.

This is an impressive level of fail.

1)you don't pay 1/25th of market price in xp, you pay 1/25th of base price. That's only the cost to enhace -without- the cost of the armor being enhanced.

2)you got the cost of a +3 enhancement wrong. Bonus squred X 1000gp; 32 X1000 = 9000gp

Converted to cost is 4500 and 360xp.

3) there're no spell components to a simple enhancement bonus. Only a CL requirement of 3 * the enhancement bonus, CL 9 in this case. There's no service fee to pay to a caster because you don't need one for this.

[ArcturusV]

That's what I get for going off the top of my head rather than checking. *shrug*. Though still probably would require a spellcaster to help him out to finagle up someone with 9 caster level. I can't think of a way myself to get that much without actually being a caster in part. 5 I'm pretty sure I could find a way to do it. But I don't think I'd be able to hit 9.

[Kelb_Panthera]

That's what I get for going off the top of my head rather than checking. *shrug*. Though still probably would require a spellcaster to help him out to finagle up someone with 9 caster level. I can't think of a way myself to get that much without actually being a caster in part. 5 I'm pretty sure I could find a way to do it. But I don't think I'd be able to hit 9.

Battlesmith 3 gives you CL 9 for the purposes of crafting magical arms and armor. In ten levels it gets you up to CL 30 for crafting arms and armor.

I, too, am going from the top of my head here.

BTW, instead of paying a caster to visit and supply the spell every day or expending a pile of expensive scrolls, you can buy a schema(s) (magic of eberron) of the spell(s) required by the item, then sell them when you're done. This works as long as the required spell(s) are 6th level or lower and don't have an expensive material or XP component.

[Psyren]

As others have pointed out, Pathfinder lets non-casters pick up and use Craft Magic Arms & Armor, and Craft Wondrous Item just fine. In addition, you only need a caster's help to make potions, spell-trigger and spell-completion items; other kinds of items with spell prerequisites can be bypassed simply by voluntarily increasing the DC. For example, a sufficiently skilled blacksmith in Pathfinder can create a Flaming sword, despite having no caster level or knowledge of the flame blade, flamestrike, or fireball spells.

[Phelix-Mu]

As others have pointed out, Pathfinder lets non-casters pick up and use Craft Magic Arms & Armor, and Craft Wondrous Item just fine. In addition, you only need a caster's help to make potions, spell-trigger and spell-completion items; other kinds of items with spell prerequisites can be bypassed simply by voluntarily increasing the DC. For example, a sufficiently skilled blacksmith in Pathfinder can create a Flaming sword, despite having no caster level or knowledge of the flame blade, flamestrike, or fireball spells.

And I think I will be nabbing these rules for my setting. Always bothered me that magic is 100% caster dependent, and it makes any level of magic-mart even less believable.

[Psyren]

And I think I will be nabbing these rules for my setting. Always bothered me that magic is 100% caster dependent, and it makes any level of magic-mart even less believable.

For me, justifying Magic-mart is as easy as a planar metropolis in the setting, or even an arabian-themed land full of geniekind. Basically any hub that doesn't mind sparking a mystic arms race for profit and isn't beholden to any particular moral outlook.

But I agree that the PF rules do help. I'd extend them to potions even, just requiring a few exotic components - rare plants, crushed gemstones, the oils/organs of fantastic creatures etc. It should be possible to make a healing potion, or one that lets you move with blinding speed, with the right herbs... with a drawback attached, in some cases.

[Phelix-Mu]

But I agree that the PF rules do help. I'd extend them to potions even, just requiring a few exotic components - rare plants, crushed gemstones, the oils/organs of fantastic creatures etc. It should be possible to make a healing potion, or one that lets you move with blinding speed, with the right herbs... with a drawback attached, in some cases.

Ooh. I like this potions idea. Just thought up a nice higher-level use of the Heal skill, and a way to incorporate herbalism (which used to be a thing in older editions, but has since become a useless relic). Might be adding a touch too much utility to Craft(alchemy)...hmmm. And fabricate.

Ah well. Something to think about.