Are targets aware of spell/spell-like effects?

[Sniperfox47]

(I'm referring to 3.5, not 3.0, if they differ.)

Assuming I cast a still, silent, invisible spell on a target (who can't see invisible things of course) do they know a spell has been cast on them?

I assume that if they take damage they'd feel pain, or a fireball would still be hot, but what about enchantments or transmutations?

A couple examples follow:
1) If a succubus kisses a willing target and activates the energy drain, is the target aware of the energy drain? Are they aware of the suggestion affect? Do they feel pain from the energy drain?
2) If a still, silent, invisible "Bull's Strength" is cast on a barbarian are they aware that they are stronger?
3) If a still, silent, invisible, deceptive "Magic Missile" is cast on a target are they aware that they are the target of a damaging spell, or do they just feel pain in the side of their body of your choice? If it killed a target would others (wizards?) be able to tell that their death was magical?

Keep in mind I'm asking completely in terms of awareness/knowledge for role playing, not in terms of effects. I know spells still deal damage whether or not you can see them and transmutations still take effect, but is the character aware that the effect has taken place?


P.S. A relation question that does focus on mechanics:
If a still, silent, invisible greater shadow evocation(fireball) is cast at a target would they automatically win their will save to disbelieve it (because they're not aware of it in the first place) or do they need to make the save still (to disbelieve it's effects)?

[Malvanis]

I am gonna have to say yes. If a target is forced to make a will save it is targeting their mental fortitude. You need to be activley aware you are being attacked for you to resist that attack. And their is no rule removing the chance to save for a spell in any circumstance.

[Sniperfox47]

I am gonna have to say yes. If a target is forced to make a will save it is targeting their mental fortitude. You need to be activley aware you are being attacked for you to resist that attack. And their is no rule removing the chance to save for a spell in any circumstance.

That was my first thought too. The reason I'm questioning that is because the succubus' energy drain specifically says that it has the effect of a suggestion spell suggesting they let her kiss them more but a suggestion cannot make someone do something they know is harmful. If they are aware of her energy drain wouldn't they know it's harmful? If they did then the suggestion effect would be worthless right?

[EDIT]

Asking the creature to do some obviously harmful act automatically negates the effect of the spell.

The kiss also has the effect of a suggestion spell, asking the victim to accept another kiss from the succubus. The victim must succeed on a DC 21 Will save to negate the effect of the suggestion.

[Vaz]

I'll have to dig out the quote, but yes, a target is aware that they made a save.

I was researching this in the last Iron Chef, due to Calm Emotions ending on an attack, and that knowing that they've had to make a save is considered an "attack".

However they are not aware of what that save actually was; which is where they'd need to use their relevant Knowledges to identify the creature if it was innate, or spell/psi craft respectively if it was just such a power.

I'm unsure as to how to apply that to Class Features (such as in the last Iron Chef, the Dominate effect was a Su ability; how you were able to identify the class ability is unknown as there is no apparent visual/auditory/alternative sensory effects.

[Malvanis]

I looked it up. There is a dc21 save to break the suggestion. If the victim is under the suggestion the succubus could tell the victim to ignore the negative levels. Though if they broke the spell they could feel it.

[Sniperfox47]

Let me just check to make sure I understand right:
In the case of a willing kiss from a succubus when they're unaware that the person kissing them is one they
1) are aware that they've been kissed (obviously)
2) are aware that they've made a save (somethings happened but they don't necessarily know what)
3) are not aware that the save is the result of the kiss
4) are aware of the energy drain, but don't care because they want more
5) start caring about the fact that they were drained X hours later (equal to the succubus' Hit Dice + class levels)

Please correct anything wrong there.

[TuggyNE]

Let me just check to make sure I understand right:
In the case of a willing kiss from a succubus when they're unaware that the person kissing them is one they
1) are aware that they've been kissed (obviously)
2) are aware that they've made a save (somethings happened but they don't necessarily know what)
3) are not aware that the save is the result of the kiss
4) are aware of the energy drain, but don't care because they want more
5) start caring about the fact that they were drained X hours later (equal to the succubus' Hit Dice + class levels)

Please correct anything wrong there.

2) is only true if they passed the save; failure on a mind-affecting or otherwise non-obvious spell does not give any specific information at all.


Succeeding on a Saving Throw
A creature that successfully saves against a spell that has no obvious physical effects feels a hostile force or a tingle, but cannot deduce the exact nature of the attack.

4) is not necessarily true; I don't know of anywhere that indicates that energy drain is immediately obvious to the target. (Presumably you feel weaker in various ways, but it might be subtle enough to go unnoticed for a while.)

5) is not strictly true, since the suggestion can be completed (and therefore ends) as soon as they kiss again. However, failure on the saving throw for the last kiss keeps the suggestion running for up to 1 hr/RHD if something prevents them from fulfilling it.

[BWR]

I think the general idea is if you manage to resist something, you notice that there is something to resist.

While 2E isn't the same as 3E, there are certain illusion and enchantment spells from that system that state specifically that if a target makes his save, he is not aware that there was anything weird going on.

I would assume that things like succubi and erinyes have something similar, considering their roles as manipulators and seducers - having a statistically significant number of people notice you are doing weird things to their minds kind of ruins the undercover sneaky stuff.

In the case of succubus draining, I would rule that the target who has made his save feels something is a bit off, but can't immediately put his finger on what - other than that the foxy woman/man is a bit scary.
On a failed save, the victim would probably feel weak, a bit dizzy and tired. If prevented from getting more kisses, the victim would likely write this off as coming down with a disease, light-headedness from bliss (hottest person in the world just gave you the best kisses imaginable), ate something that didn't agree with you, etc.

[Sniperfox47]

Sorry for dragging this out. I just want to make sure I understand properly.


2) is only true if they passed the save; failure on a mind-affecting or otherwise non-obvious spell does not give any specific information at all.
Oh okay. That was what bugged me about Vaz' post. Thank you for clarifying. So they're aware of the save (as a tingle or hostile presence plus any non-negated or visible effects) if they pass the save, and if they fail then they're only aware of the effects, but in either case they can't necessarily deduce a source as long as it's subtle? Meaning a fireball shooting from a person is a dead giveaway but a touch attack, buff, charm, or compulsion could be more subtle, right?


4) is not necessarily true; I don't know of anywhere that indicates that energy drain is immediately obvious to the target. (Presumably you feel weaker in various ways, but it might be subtle enough to go unnoticed for a while.)
Okay. That definitely makes sense. I just assumed that being drained of energy would be painful.


5) is not strictly true, since the suggestion can be completed (and therefore ends) as soon as they kiss again. However, failure on the saving throw for the last kiss keeps the suggestion running for up to 1 hr/RHD if something prevents them from fulfilling it.
Of course. I should have clarified that I simply meant if I kissed them once, they failed their save, and then I ran away for some reason. Would it be per RHD or RHD+CHD? I was under the understanding that abilities like that, even racial ones, defaulted to a caster level of total hit dice, not just racial? [edit] just looked and now I'm really confused because the MM succubus has a CL 12...

[TuggyNE]

Meaning a fireball shooting from a person is a dead giveaway but a touch attack, buff, charm, or compulsion could be more subtle, right?

Pretty much, yes; otherwise a lot of spells would be pointless in their default usage.


Okay. That definitely makes sense. I just assumed that being drained of energy would be painful.

It … might be? It's not a terrible idea to houserule that if there's nothing in the books, but I'm not sure it's strictly required.


Of course. I should have clarified that I simply meant if I kissed them once, they failed their save, and then I ran away for some reason. Would it be per RHD or RHD+CHD? I was under the understanding that abilities like that, even racial ones, defaulted to a caster level of total hit dice, not just racial? [edit] just looked and now I'm really confused because the MM succubus has a CL 12...

The CL for the SLAs under its Spell-Like Abilities entry is 12; its CL for its Su Energy Drain, however, is equal to its hit dice. Looking again at the Supernatural Abilities (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#supernaturalAbilities) entry, it's not entirely clear that it's RHD only. Hmm.

*casts summon Urpriest IX*