Stealth vs. Allies?

[Jane_Smith]

How is stealth regarded when used in the presence of allies? Do they get a perception check to spot you? Do you need to have cover or break line of sight from them to begin a stealth in combat just like your enemies? Or does the rules of stealth only apply to who you want to stealth against such as hostile enemies?

If the stealth skill is only used vs. enemies to try to detect you, what are the rules regarding what your allies see of you during that time if you basically automatically succeed stealth vs. allies or they don't get perception checks to spot you?

The reason I ask is because I have a troublesome player who was attempting to abuse the stealth rules in combat situations, to hide from the enemy, but would use this time to also sabotage his team, plant evidence to create lies, distrust, or pvp type of situations, and assumed just because his allies still thought of him as an ally they would not notice him slipping away in a team fight, sneaking around the camp at night, and they would not be able to use perception checks to try to spot him. I finally cracked down on this behavior and said enough is enough, they will get perception checks just like your enemies would when you stealth around them. He then threw a small tantrum and quit, saying I was ruining his plans/his fun/was a bad dm, you name it, just because I felt like he was abusing stealth to specifically screw over the plot and his team. Another issue was he kept using stealth standing in front or besides the other pc's to begin screwing with them, and I told him not only would you have to roll - but you need the hide in plain sight feature for that bs.

Did I handle this situation correctly? IS their any rules regarding stealth vs. allies?

[TuggyNE]

If anything, I'd err on the side of your allies being able to automatically spot you (or at least having a bonus), but I suspect RAW is actually that it doesn't matter; you just roll the checks same way. You definitely don't get an auto-win on Stealth against allies. Very very definitely.

[Talakeal]

Wow. And people say i have a dysfunctional group. You were rit, and are better off without the player in all likelyhood. Exactly what raw are they trying to teit for this auto success anyway?

[Jeff the Green]

Yeah, you definitely played it right. I would have started with talking to him OOC and telling him that what he was doing A) was as annoying as hell B) didn't actually work, so please knock it off, but I prefer to handle things OOC when possible.

[Namfuak]

Since you mention perception, I assume this is PF. In the pfsrd, stealth has the following:


Your Stealth check is opposed by the Perception check of anyone who might notice you.

Allies might notice you.
Ergo, allies can make perception checks against your stealth check. QED.

Granted, it looks like this has the same dysfunction as 3.5, that being that it makes a blanket statement that stealth cannot be used if you are being observed by anyone (even allies, or anyone but the person you are actually trying to stealth against), so the rules are actually against him without some RAI interpretation, of which I think yours is perfectly valid and makes the most sense.

Granted, if the player was being a little **** and starting pvp without any OOC agreement that it was cool, you're probably better off without him.

[BWR]

Without things like Hide in Plain Sight, you need concealment in order to hide.
There are no special rules that allow people to auto-hide from allies, nor people to auto-spot hidden allies.

To chime in on the matter with the player, he sounds like he needs a slap to the back of the head. You can always try to explain, and get the rest of the group to agree, that his actions are just being dickish and disruptive and could he please stop because he's ruining everybody else's game for his own immature pleasure.
If this doesn't work, dump him. There is no reason for the rest of you to put up with **** like this.

[CaladanMoonblad]

As stated above by other Playgrounders, everyone (NPCs and PCs) is entitled to a counter check (Perception in Pathfinder, Listen/Spot in 3.5).

Considering you let the offending player get away with his/her shenanigans for a long while, enforcing the rules was the "least" you could have done. Disruptive players are a plague; there's creativity and then there's creative destruction. The latter should always be spotted early, and addressed in game when you detect it.

Case in point; I have a player that is playing a rogue, and as part of his character (it was a pre-gen), he is playing his character as a Chaotic-Neutral person, and tried pocketing some loot prior to splitting it with the rest of the group. From the offset, I forced them all to roll relevant checks. The first time, the rogue was caught, but bluffed his way out of it (playing the innocent halfling). The second time he attempted, I gave the other players a +2 circumstance bonus because they are more suspicious of the half-pint. The rogue rolled a natural 20 on Sleight of Hand, and the others did not notice it. The Halfling made off with a 70 gp gem that is all his, but I warned him in game that to cash in requires him to take care of it in game... and not out of game, like we do for the rest of the loot and and subsequent purchases.

The other players were not completely mad at the player's antics, because everyone got a chance to notice what was happening. That's how the dice roll.

Similarly, the same halfling hid during combat after breaking line of sight with everyone, and no one heard him calling for help. The other players were more than happy to play the part of ignorant allies and let the halfling fare on his own. : )

[Killer Angel]

If anything, I'd err on the side of your allies being able to automatically spot you (or at least having a bonus), but I suspect RAW is actually that it doesn't matter; you just roll the checks same way. You definitely don't get an auto-win on Stealth against allies. Very very definitely.

If I recall correctly, one of the abilities of the Nightsong Enforcer, is to give you a +20 bonus on Spot and Listen toward your allies, so definitely a check is required, following the standard rules: allies aren't normally able to automatically spot a companion, neither they get a bonus. And the one that hides, doesn't get an auto-win.

[Psyren]

If I allowed PvP at all (I don't), I would say you did it the right way - the minute the stealther tries to do something against the party, the party gets perception checks too.

[Fouredged Sword]

Keep in mind that you "If people are observing you, even casually, you can’t hide". If you start hiding while the party can see you, they can keep seeing you regardless of your roll.

This is important as you may be in a situation that the party can see you and monsters can not. You make a high hide check and the party can still see you without making spot checks because they could see you to begin with. Unless you make a hide check after breaking their line of sight to you, you remain visible to them at all times.