Break this Homebrew PRC

[Humble Master]

So I was looking at my Sarax-Okus PrC and thought that there is probably a way to horribly break the game with it. I however am not good at breaking the game so that's what this thread is for. The class is in my sig and right here. http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15029037#post15029037. Lets see what you can come up with!

[Flickerdart]

I can see an easy way - it's got 9/10 arcane casting progression. :smallbiggrin:

[Erik Vale]

Yea. It's broken in the same way wizards are broken, because for some reason a wizard took it.

However, why a wizard aiming to break the game would choose that class is beyond me, given he could break the game more without it.

[Sith_Happens]

It's probably better than Jade Phoenix Mage, but not by much. I can't think of any spell/maneuver combination that would be particularly "broken," at least not one you couldn't already use without this class's features.

Speaking of which, you need to specify which disciplines the Sarax-Okus has access to.

[avr]

A wizard with a couple of levels of arcane archer might do some interesting things with this. Alternately you could go with JPM and use the extra attacks to kick off their free empower without actually paying actions.

Not sure either is actually broken, but these are how it occurs to me to use this class, for what it's worth.

[Oscredwin]

It seems like it would be a great one level dip for a lot of Gish builds. Level one gets you MWP:All, +1BAB and +1CL and one free melee attack a day, all for the cost of two prereq feats which are pretty good for a build like that. Something like Transmuter3/MS5/Sarax-Okus1/Abjurent Champion5/Sarax-Okus6 is a pretty nice Gish Build (although it doesn't start gishing till mid level).

[Der_DWSage]

I'm with Oscre here-it's not particularly broken on its own, but when put into a sea of classes, it becomes phenomonal. Prestige classes like this are generally more valued as dips than they are as anything else, so let's look at the good 'dip break' points.

1st level:Already summed up, really. +1 BAB, Martial weapon proficiency, spell caster progression, extra maneuver readied, bonus to two saves, and the ability to cast with light armor? Thank you, that's my stop there...

2nd level:Already, another good stopping point! Extra maneuver known, and Synergized spell 1/day? Not a bad choice, especially if you choose a particularly nasty attack to synch it with.

3rd level:I'd actually say Synchronized Assault is -worse- than Synergized, what with diminishing returns and all that, but for those that really want a full round of attacks, 3rd level is your last stop on the dip train.

And...that's about it, really. It makes a good dip, it meshes the two classes together, but it's as frontloaded as the Paladin who could be a 6-level class. Abuse from the class itself is probably rather slim, but abuse as a dip? 'Yes, I'd like to True Strike my next maneuver.' is probably the weakest portion of things I can imagine.

[sonofzeal]

It makes Duskblades cry, for one. Synchronized Spell is miles ahead of the Duskblade Channeling.

Otherwise, eh. It miiiight be a bit too good, but not "broken" in any way I can see. I might make it 4/5 casting progression (lost levels at 1st and 5th), but give it d8 HD in return. That's about it.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Synchronized Assault = Wraithstrike + Full Attack = win

Perfect Syncronization - bends the action economy over horribly. Look at synergy with WRT and Celerity. Multiple full round attacks in one shot. Or, if you prefer, since you've got 9th level maneuvers by this point, you can pick up three attacks per turn with Time Stands Still.

Also, remember that PrC's are full initiator progression. And this is a 9/10 casting progression. AND it is a full BAB progression. You can have 9th level Maneuvers and Spells with this PrC.

Oh, and because you key all of the class abilities off of levels in the class, rather than just 'times a day', it's vulnerable to artificial boosting via Legacy Champion.

Due to skill requirements, barring moderate to extreme cheese, you can't get into this PrC before 6th level (need 9 ranks which means 5th level). However, after 16th, you can Legacy Champion and get the additional progression of both initiation and casting, still end up with +16 BAB by level 20, and STILL end up with 9's on both sides.

Sample build:

Wizard4/Crusader2/PrC9/Legacy Champion5

IL 18, CL 17 BAB 16.

Proposed fix: Make the lost caster level at 1st level to discourage dippers and make them actually pay to play this class. Consider alternate class abilities, being able to cast and initiate simultaneously has too many synergistic tendencies.

[Humble Master]

Thanks for all your input. However I wasn't really looking for a critique as much as thoughts on some truly ridiculous combos you could pull off with it's abilities.

[Sith_Happens]

Thanks for all your input. However I wasn't really looking for a critique as much as thoughts on some truly ridiculous combos you could pull off with it's abilities.

The thing is, in at least all the cases I can think of, the full attack or maneuver is mostly just icing on the cake for the spell. You know, because magic.

[kernal42]

This isn't horribly broken, but I think you need to change Synergized Spell. As written, it lets you piggy-back a standard-action maneuver onto a swift-action spell. That's probably more than you want to let it do.

IMO this class outshines many gish alternatives, like JPM, which may justify an adjustment downwards (4/5 casting progression, for example). That said, it doesn't provide any obviously game-breaking abilities and is probably behind wizard in terms of real power.

Cheers,
Kernal

[Just to Browse]

This is plenty borken. Take casting classes till you have +4 BAB, get Martial Study (Anything), and then cherrypick maneuvers off what appears to be any list when you get them. There is no specific wombo-combo that comes out of this class, but it hands casters the best buffs ever.

Just reflavor the Jade Phoenix Mage.

[flamewolf393]

Weapon storm. All the freaking weapon storm.

I have weapon storm precast to go off. As I attack I cast another weapon storm. Then I have the weapon storm enhancement. Then I use the maneuver that effectively recreates weapon storm. I just hit you 9 times with one attack.

[dspeyer]

Trying to break stuff...

Duskblade 4 / Warblade 2 / S-O 9 / JPM 5 Gives up almost nothing versus a straight warblade and can drop True Strike before a maneuver for essentially free, starting at level 8.

Bard 4 / Crusader 2 / S-O 3 / JPM 1 / Sublime Chord 1 / S-O 6 / JPM 3 gets 9th level arcane and maneuvers, which I don't think is normally possible or at least not without serious cheese. For that matter, so does Wizard 4 / Warblade 2 / S-O 9 / JPM 5, though that at least gives up something.

Wizard 8 / S-O 9 / Abjurent Champion 3 makes a pretty effective gish with no casting sacrifice at all, using martial study/stance, if it can get Martial Lore as a class skill. If the homebrew Broken Blade is allowed, that makes it easy. If it gets treated as a knowledge skill, even easier. Of course, the wizard does have to give up his familiar :-).

[Fable Wright]

Just look at the class. It's not going to annihilate a campaign world, but it's ridiculously powerful, as others have pointed out. It also has highly abusable wording in its abilities, as there's nothing stopping you from using a Synchronized Assault to use a Synchronized, Synergized Spell and get 1 attack, 2 maneuvers and one spell as a full round action. Cast a Synchronized, Synergized Wraithstrike and use Arcane Strike and Power Attack with your remaining Swift, and you just one-shotted just about anything level appropriate with 2 attacks, 3 maneuvers and probably one or more attacks from the non-Wraithstrike spell you cast. Small note: Maneuvers were designed to be good enough to give up full attacks for. You just gave them the ability to Nova 3 of them in the same round.

Also, really, this probably should have stayed in the homebrew forum. Rather than PEACH, you could try putting a "Please Break" in the title and gotten people with significantly more experience pointing out the problems.