Why is Rich taking such pains to hammer home the fact that Nale is incompetent? [Archive]

Boros Reckoner

2013-06-11, 10:20 PM

Had to make an account just to ask this

I think the fact that "Nale is a second-rate wannabe-villain that doesn't really know his head from his ass" has been adequately conveyed in the comics thus far

Really ever since Tarquin entered the picture Nale has just been more and more relegated to the role of butt-monkey

Rich even made it a point to tell us, the readers, that he's now and unsuspecting pawn being manipulated by more than one party

Why all the emphasis on how pathetic he is?

My thoughts are A) he'll wind up being the true Big Bad, outsmarting everyone in a Kefka-esque twist, made all the more unexpected by how much we've been ingrained that he's incapable of that

or

B) He'll join the good guys after some "character development" since he's just, such a really crappy villain. This may play into Elan's "happy ending"

It seems far too heavy-handed to just end up being played straight. We already get that he's pathetic, there's no reason to keep driving the point home at this point if nothing's going to turn that on its head.

ti'esar

2013-06-11, 10:30 PM

Nale is definitely not joining the good guys. From the commentary in War and XPs:

Nale may be infinitely less powerful than Xykon, but he's no less evil, in my opinion.

Admittedly, a similar statement could be made about (or at least could have been made about) Belkar, but I really don't see Nale pulling a heel-face turn as being remotely plausible.

Sir_Leorik

2013-06-11, 10:38 PM

Nale has always been something of a buffoon. He may believe himself to be a genius, but his plans have always had more than a few flaws in them. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0255.html)

To date Nale has succeeded in pulling off three four schemes: tricking Roy into helping the Linear Guild steal Dorukan's amulet (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0046.html); tricking Roy into going on what Nale thought was a meaningless fetch quest so the Linear Guild could make a run for it (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0142.html); kidnapping Julia Greenhilt (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0257.html) in order to lure the OotS to Cliffport, so Nale could swap places with Elan (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0363.html); and weaseling his way out of being murdered by Malack by telling Tarquin about the Gates. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0821.html) That's it. Vaarsuvius has even lampshaded how tedious and unoriginal (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0397.html) Nale's plans are.

The real question you should be asking is: Why is Tarquin rubbing Nale's failures in his face? Tarquin is probably hoping that Nale will learn from the experience (or die trying).

Grey_Wolf_c

2013-06-11, 10:45 PM

Really ever since Tarquin entered the picture Nale has just been more and more relegated to the role of butt-monkey

I disagree. Nale has always been a butt-monkey, and his schemes have always been too complicated to succeed. He has only started to become a danger to the OotS since the moment his dad started thinking for him.

It continues to be part of the difference between Elan and him. Elan is slowly becoming more competent because he is willing to listen to other's advice (V's tutoring in illusions, Roy's willingness to give him some slack, Haley). Nale only listens to Sabine, and even then not very much, convinced as he is of his own superior mind.

Before, it was fine to have Nale be just a second-rate, non-threatening villain. But as we near the end of the story, the stakes need to go up, and thus, since Nale cannot step up his game, because he is too proud and stupid to admit he needs help, Tarquin has to force him to step up his game.

In short, Rich is not "more and more" anything. Nale is the same he always was. But the linear guild needs to be a threat, and that means Nale has to play second fiddle for a while (my prediction, until the real bad guys step into the arena).

Grey Wolf

EmperorSarda

2013-06-11, 10:45 PM

Why all the emphasis on how pathetic he is?
Maybe because Nale is truly pathetic? His is a villain that suffers from the avarice of pride, where everything is about him. Whose primary motivation against the Order of the Stick, against his very brother, was rejection. He cannot stand not to get his way.

My thoughts are A) he'll wind up being the true Big Bad, outsmarting everyone in a Kefka-esque twist, made all the more unexpected by how much we've been ingrained that he's incapable of that
Nale only revealed the Snarl to his father because he had no choice in the matter. He is only alive because he knows Xykon. He has outsmarted himself because there is no way he can get a hold of the ritual, no way if he somehow did that he couldn't avoid handing it over to his father and no way he can escape with his life once his life serves no purpose or even beyond trying to get the ritual from Xykon.

or

B) He'll join the good guys after some "character development" since he's just, such a really crappy villain. This may play into Elan's "happy ending"
Nale no longer factors into Elan's happy ending since Elan's illusion ended. Seeing how extremely narcissistic Nale is, how unrepentant he is, this is not likely either.

It seems far too heavy-handed to just end up being played straight. We already get that he's pathetic, there's no reason to keep driving the point home at this point if nothing's going to turn that on its head.
Sometimes the obvious thing is the obvious thing.

BrotherMirtillo

2013-06-11, 11:12 PM

I think you're selling Nale short. Short version: he's smart enough to set up tactics and ambushes, and he's well-connected enough to get allies. However, he lands in fights with people that are rather out of his weight class. I suspect you could say the same about the Azurite Resistance movement. But for now, I'll stick with Nale.

Longer version: consider his progress bit by bit.

You say he's a wanna-be. Absolutely -- he's ambitious, and he's going for his goals.

Second-rate? In terms of power, yes. Compared with Xykon, Redcloak, or Tarquin, Nale lacks the raw power and battlefield experience they've accumulated. His determination to crush the Order probably beats any of those three, but that only indicates Nale's centrality to the story, not his skill rank.

Unsuspecting pawn? Yes, but so is V. Back in "Start of Darkness," so was Redcloak. Did/does that make them helpless and pathetic? Not if they have anything to say about it. Which they do.

Doesn't know his head from his ass? Wrong. He knew how to lay low for months, drain a caster (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0810.html), contain the enemy party (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0849.html), and even bail out when the going got tough (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0862.html). He knows what he can do. He's just very bad at knowing how quickly his plans can buckle when the opponents find the weak spot.

Or at least, I used to think he was very bad at that. Then I reconsidered this most recent comic. Elan is supposed to be the hero. He's gotten lots of meaty character development and family time, so it became a welcome sight to see Elan unravel the Order's phantasm and save his friends. Then Nale goes and does the same thing not even five strips later, and you can bet he didn't have the "fighting for my friends" factor to boost him.

And as for him looking especially idiotic and hapless after introducing Tarquin? I think that's more a problem of the current chain of events. Nale often runs away or has mixed victories. (One might say the same of the heroes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0724.html).) The most recent chapter just happens to show Nale putting more plans into action one after another after another than he's done in previous chapters. As a result, his status as enemy of very powerful people means that he's got a higher density of losses per week than usual. Yes, I suspect it was his fate to get defeated. But calling him a butt-monkey sounds like you've given up on the guy, and that you think Rich will never change his fate. If I've learned one thing from this comic, it's to never bank on anything always staying the same.

This is a storyline where epic spellcasters and overly cunning warlords are far too common for the PCs' comfort. All the heroes are second rate or worse. But they stand up eight times after falling seven, they're learning quite a bit, and they catch their breaks where they can get them, often by gathering help. That's all I can ask of any protagonist, and Nale's keeping that pace just fine.

CowardlyPaladin

2013-06-11, 11:54 PM

Actually I don't think Nale revealing the Snarl bit was bad at all, it was either that or death. Its like the old story. A thief is due to be executed, but he says to the king that if given a year and a day he can teach a horse to talk. One of his friends knows full well he can't and asks him why he did this and the thief say "time. Alot can happen in a year. I could escape, the king could die, he might pardon me, or an invasion might ensure." Nale is doing the same thing, sure he can't access the ritual, but he now has time for the situation to change. Malack might be killed, or forgive him, Tarquin might accept him, Nale might escape or establish power, he might get his hands on a magic item to tip the balance.

Edit: I agree people really do put Nale down, but he is quite dangerous and thinks quickly on his feet. He is a better tatical planner than say Xykon, he just doesn't have the raw power

Nilehus

2013-06-12, 01:42 AM

If Nale could just be more realistic about his capabilities and restrain his ego, I think he'd be far more dangerous. He can be very cunning at times.

Unfortunately, his ego is his greatest defining trait, so he's doomed to be a greater threat to himself and his goals than Elan or Tarquin will ever be.

ericgrau

2013-06-12, 01:52 AM

I think you're over-thinking it and it's just entertaining to poke fun at him and the linear guild in general. Even so he is and has been a big threat.

zimmerwald1915

2013-06-12, 01:58 AM

To date Nale has succeeded in pulling off three four schemes: tricking Roy into helping the Linear Guild steal Dorukan's amulet (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0046.html); tricking Roy into going on what Nale thought was a meaningless fetch quest so the Linear Guild could make a run for it (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0142.html); kidnapping Julia Greenhilt (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0257.html) in order to lure the OotS to Cliffport, so Nale could swap places with Elan (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0363.html); and weaseling his way out of being murdered by Malack by telling Tarquin about the Gates. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0821.html) That's it.
That's it? Acquiring a minor artifact (albeit one that was later destroyed by blind luck), then breaking out of prison and eluding the people who put you there in the first place, then kidnapping a damsel, then pulling off a Prince and the Pauper switch, then evading the wrath of an Epic-ECL vampire cleric of a god of death is a pretty impressive villain CV. It also accounts for most of Nale's appearances to date.

Draz74

2013-06-12, 02:35 AM

Acquiring a minor artifact (albeit one that was later destroyed by blind luck),

Actually, I'd say that was an exemplary demonstration of non-blind luck, a rare phenomenon. :smallbiggrin:

Quild

2013-06-12, 02:44 AM

Sooo, Nale shouldn't act as such an incompetent because we already know he is? :smallconfused:

Copperdragon

2013-06-12, 03:01 AM

To address the question from the title: I do not think he's doing that. Nale is as he is, and in this situation, this is just playing as it is. When Nale had some free reign, he could set the situation himself, therefore, he was able to get an edge (Cliffport). Yet, as he is dominated by Tarquin, he cannot do that. We do know that Nale is unable to spontaneously deal with situations. This is just not his strength, his strength is to plan ahead and then roll that plan out.
So I do not think it is a surprise Nale utterly sucks a in completely unplanned, chaotic situation (first, he's under Tarquins control and command and second, they are in a dungeon with lots of stuff going on and no time to get the high ground Nale needs).

Really ever since Tarquin entered the picture Nale has just been more and more relegated to the role of butt-monkey

He always has been that. He just had also scenes where he got the higher ground and as such he has successes. Now he even lost Sabine, who had always kept him from the most stupid ideas and from the biggest screwups.

Why all the emphasis on how pathetic he is?

I do not think there is "emphasis" on how pathetic Nale is. I think Nale is simply pathetic, therefore, he comes over as that.

B) He'll join the good guys after some "character development" since he's just, such a really crappy villain. This may play into Elan's "happy ending"

No. Way. Nale does not serve. Non serviam is his motto. And he surely will not serve someone he loathes as the Order and he surely will not serve the "good" (he defines himself as evil and thinks that is cool).

It seems far too heavy-handed to just end up being played straight. We already get that he's pathetic, there's no reason to keep driving the point home at this point if nothing's going to turn that on its head.

I think Nale is not going to get development, I more think he is going to die rather soon. Therefore, he's getting his last scenes in the spotlight.
That you think it's overdone with him is rooted in what I think as well. The "Nale as we know him" has been overdone. But that is only a problem as long as you think he's going to stay around in just that same fashion without getting some development. But if he's really getting killed here at this gate, it would all be fine to show him as he has been since he got introduced (minus a valuable ally who helped him to be efficient (Sabine), minus his valuable lackeys he can command (Thog, and all the others) and minus his freedom to pause and plan (Tarquin and Malack are there and hold him on a leash).
Also, Nale's not that stupid, so this mind is also occupied "How to I keep Malack from killing me?" must be a pretty big thing on his list of "things I care about").

I also think that the risk and "level" of what is going on is much higher now and the other villians are so much more able that is just now becomes apparent that Nale is simply outclassed here. Before he fooled with an unorganised party of adventuerers or the police of a city. That was fine, he was playing on his league.
But now he faces three parties (the Order, Team Tarquin, Team Evil) who either have been much more competent than he is or who have grown into their role. Nale now plays the big game with the big sharks and it totally shows he's simply not able to swim with them.
Imagine some high class amateur suddenly showing up to a pro game (of whatever sports you like).

Obscure Blade

2013-06-12, 03:30 AM

I think Nale is not going to get development, I more think he is going to die rather soon. Therefore, he's getting his last scenes in the spotlight.Quite possibly.

I also think that one of Nale's characteristics is that he doesn't develop. He is what he is, and doesn't learn much from his mistakes. Elan has character growth; Nale's the same guy he was at the beginning. Egotistical, malicious, self absorbed. Even him being out of his league and not knowing or admitting it is a longstanding trait; he went up against Tarquin in the backstory, and I rather doubt he was a match for Tarquin back then any more than he is now.

Porthos

2013-06-12, 03:33 AM

You know what? Maybe it is my tendency to root for the underdog, but I think I now want Nale to survive all of this and sail off into the sunset. Set up shop somewhere. Get some nice villainy going on to provide some fodder for another group of heroes.

But I've always had a little bit of a soft spot for the character, so maybe that's coloring my thinking.

I can tell you I have no such feelings for Malack or Tarquin, that's for sure. :smallwink:

Not sure how he'll survive. But one thing Nale is exceptionally good at is saving his own neck. Hopefully he'll be able to continue to do so.

Morty

2013-06-12, 03:35 AM

I don't think pains are being taken. Nale is an incompetent buffoon. He has had some successes in his schemes against the Order... mostly due to mistakes on the Order's part. Of course, the Order is growing in competence and integrity, whereas Nale remains convinced that he's a genius and therefore is unlikely to change.

His only chance of looking smart was when he was near the Order, who have never been exactly a crack team of professionals, and around his Linear Guild minions, who included such masters of tactics as Thog and Pompey. His ineptitude becomes very apparent when he's near Tarquin and Malack, both of whom are very good at what they do, and the Order as it becomes a more coherent team over time.

Sunken Valley

2013-06-12, 03:37 AM

Ten Soul Pieces Nale survives to the end of book 6

Cronos988

2013-06-12, 04:16 AM

The problem Nale has, as others have pointed out, is that he does not try to improve. He remains confident that in the end, all his plans will play out, while everyone else learns from their mistakes.

Compared to Elan, he is intelligent but lacking in wisdom. While Elan has found a way to employ his strenghts and work around his weaknesses (e.g. by accepting advice), Nale is unwilling to listen to wiser characters and alleviate his flaws.

Therefore, while everyone else has been getting stronger in terms of character development, Nale is still the same. Even Sabine has had some substantial development, that Nale has remained blind to. That is why previously, while he always was kind of a ****, he also seemed mildly competent, while now he just comes accross as a total buffon.

Honestly, I am kinda rooting for his eventual death, just because I want to see how Rich portrays Sabines reaction.

Obscure Blade

2013-06-12, 04:24 AM

Honestly, I am kinda rooting for his eventual death, just because I want to see how Rich portrays Sabines reaction.Then there's the afterlife question.

:nale: "Well...are there any benefits to having a demoness for a girlfriend for a damned soul?"

:sabine: "Well...I can give you backrubs after they take you off the rack!"

:nale: "....Great."

Clertar

2013-06-12, 05:48 AM

It's all part of the plan. Keep calm and sit back.

gallagher

2013-06-12, 05:51 AM

he isnt incompetent, he is just impatient

Copperdragon

2013-06-12, 06:29 AM

he isnt incompetent, he is just impatient

That's not a difference, the second can be a reason for the first.

Needle

2013-06-12, 06:42 AM

Copperdragon

2013-06-12, 07:05 AM

I insist Nale is smarter than most think...[...]

Yes, as written before: he's successful as long as he's doing small- and midrange stuff.
[Easy] Betray an unsuspecting group of adventurers? Check.
[Easy] Come up with a plan to kidnap a girl from school? Check.
[Moderate] Escape from a city under siege (which breaks open your cell)? Check.
[Moderate] Commit murder in a city and frame someone looking just like you? Check.
[Hard] Compete with your super-competent father over the rule of an empire? Fail.
[Hard] Compete with Tarquin and Malack over who controls the Linear Guild? Fail.
[Very Hard] As above, just without Sabine on his side? Fail.

Nale is not stupid and quite able up to a certain tier. But then he is simply outsmarted as others are more flexible in mind, quicker with new plans, have a better idea on what works and what not, have a better grasp of reason, know their own limitations better, or use their ressources better.
Right now, he's facing Team Tarquin, whose power is still a bit uncertain, but who are certainly more powerful than him and much better planners, Team Evil who have been shown to be top notch when it comes to power, plans, and improvising situations, and the (a partial) Order of the Stick who are comparable to his power but have constantly improved on everything mentioned above.

Now, how's Nale going to fare if he starts
[Extremely Hard] Compete in a three-way race with Team Tarquin, the Order of the Stick, Team Evil - while Malack is specificly out to kill him - over the control of an artefact that plays on the Multiverse-level in regard to plot.
I, personally, vote "Horrible Fail".
And yes, he'll probably get a good plan off, like killing Malack against all our expectations or at least struggling free from his immediate grasp.

Another reason I think Nale's going to die is: We all expect Sabine is going to have to chose between Nale and the IFCC. We see this from so long coming and it's the very obvious choice. I think Rich tells an interesting story. I think, in the end, Sabine will face a choice even more tragic: between her revenge for Nale's Death and the IFCC - she either gives up her feelings and "does her job" or she betrays her employer (with grave consequences!) without getting anything but a stab at petty revenge (revenge is never constructive).

Needle

2013-06-12, 07:29 AM

Yes, I agree Nale is nowhere near Tarquin competence, but as Tarquin pointed out, it was surprising he was able to "play it low" by hiding under his nose and milking info from Penelope about the Draketooths (or should I say Draketeeth? :smallbiggrin:). This is nothing new, though, neither Xykon nor Redcloack knew about Dorukan's Talisman, and I guess both of them would have liked to use that for some fun, though I'll be the first to say I don't know if it that counts. Back at the Empire, Nale even succeeded at implanting a spy inside Tarquin most private territory, we should not forget Z's job there. All in all, a solid performance against someone above his wits.

Then his plan failed because Vaarsuvius used Familicide. If that didn't happened, he'd had apporached Girard's Gate by now and either die horribly or talk his way out to put Girard's descendants against those allied with the Paladins, I guess the latter would only happened if he knew about Girard-Soon differences, something he may know if wether Shojo repeated the story as he did the first time or if Z scrying was active before we saw the eye. The difference between this and his previous plan was that he now had time to replan, but somewhat failed at the end when throwing that crazy ambush scenario because of his own paranoia, a bad decission followed by lack of planning time (admited by himself) but that worked out well up till Malack came out of his chamber (and this is not unexpected, but an error from Nale due to the lack of planning time, maybe his most glaring mistake as he knew about Malack, Durkon was at the Palace and he knew how powerful Malack was, yet didn't decide to escape asap despite the odds, something he did before at the Inn escene after Haley broke out of his gibberish talk).

Now, as how the things are, I expect Nale to die, horribly failing or not. I set my visions on Tarquin's further development (or better say, he joining up with his old colleagues on march to Kraagor's Gate and expand their cons), but you also point out Sabine and that's true, it'd develop two separate parties.

Xelbiuj

2013-06-12, 07:38 AM

A) he'll wind up being the true Big Bad

AHAHHAHAH
or

B) He'll join the good guys after some "character development"

Doubtful, his crimes are pretty unforgivable and they could never really trust him. He wouldn't have the "well he's our psycho killer" going for him like Belkar.

Sir_Leorik

2013-06-12, 03:30 PM

That's it? Acquiring a minor artifact (albeit one that was later destroyed by blind luck), then breaking out of prison and eluding the people who put you there in the first place, then kidnapping a damsel, then pulling off a Prince and the Pauper switch, then evading the wrath of an Epic-ECL vampire cleric of a god of death is a pretty impressive villain CV. It also accounts for most of Nale's appearances to date.

The only one of these schemes that actually succeeded was the first (and as you mentioned that success was short lived). Sabine broke Nale and Thog out of prison by murdering the guards. At that point they should have fled, but Nale remained in town to allow Thog to attend a sleep over party. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0142.html) Nale Sent the OotS into Wooden Forest hoping his brother and allies would be killed; they weren't, and Roy got the Starmetal. (Of course if Nale hadn't sent Roy on what Nale thought was a wild goose chase, a certain Dragon would never have sought revenge on V, V would not have made a pact with the IFCC and the Draketooths would be alive.)

Kidnapping Julia was Nale's backup plan (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0256.html); Nale's original plan (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0255.html) wasn't nearly as good. And how did that plan fare? One member of the Linear Guild was lynched by adventurers, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0357.html) two (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0359.html) others are arrested (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0363.html), the member assigned to keep an eye on Elan quits in the middle of the job (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0399.html), Nale nearly gets eaten by a giant bird (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0377.html), and finally the entire plan unravels, leaving Nale, Sabine and Thog at the mercy of a Chaotic Good despot feigning senility. Not one of Nale's better schemes.

Nale's attempt to track down Orrin Draketooth was a much better scheme, but at the last minute he abandoned it to take petty revenge on Elan and the OotS. If Nale had split town with Sabine, Z and Yukyuk the minute he saw the OotS, the Guild might have made it half way to Windy Valley before Tarquin's men caught up to him.

SavageWombat

2013-06-12, 04:15 PM

You know, whether Nale is competent or not, he always thinks he has a plan. Even as it fails. This suggests to me, from his attitude, that he has something up his sleeve to "handle" Malack. He's probably wrong, but he's holding back something from us right now.

brionl

2013-06-12, 05:36 PM

I have a much simpler theory: Because it's funny.

Bulldog Psion

2013-06-12, 07:25 PM

I don't think anything is being hammered home.

I also don't think that Nale is completely incompetent. Sure, he has his moments, but quite a few of his plans are foiled by circumstances almost totally beyond his control. For example, he could easily have killed Haley with his Elan-substitution plan if not for:

1. Guards believing a **** and bull story about "vaporizing flu."
2. Thog teaming up with Elan rather than twisting his neck.
3. An airship captain being around who was willing to help.
4. Said airship captain being able to train him in complete level of Dashing Swordsman in 2 or 3 hours.
5. Elan bursting in through the window at precisely the right second, rather than, say, being 2 minutes or 2 hours or 4 days late and finding Haley's corpse on the floor.

None of that really was due to Nale's incompetence. He successfully lured the party to him, separated them, put himself in place of Elan, traveled with the group, survived Belkar's attack, and took in the paranoid Haley herself. Basically, his plan worked out and he was even able to adapt to the unexpected, like Belkar, and Haley's aphasia. His only "failure" in that case was not being on the right side of the dramatic, narrative flow.

I think Elan's big advantage over him is that he understands drama and narrative structure, and Nale doesn't. :smallamused:

If dramatic conventions weren't such a major, objective force in the OotS world, Nale would be a lot more dangerous than he is.

Kish

2013-06-12, 07:37 PM

I don't think anything is being hammered home.

I also don't think that Nale is completely incompetent. Sure, he has his moments, but quite a few of his plans are foiled by circumstances almost totally beyond his control.

This argument usually ignores the ways circumstances beyond Nale's control favor Nale.

For example, looking at your very first point, I cannot help but note that Nale's plan would never have gotten off the ground without the Order being fully as gullible as the guards in question--such that it never occurred to them that the "Elan" who told them constantly and randomly, "I'm Elan!" didn't remember Belkar's name, didn't keep his mouth shut about any of the ways his knowledge and worldview differed from Elan's and in fact reflexively shoved himself into the Order members' perceptions, and made out with strange male guards, wasn't actually Elan.

If dramatic conventions weren't such a major, objective force in the OotS world, Nale would be long dead.

Bulldog Psion

2013-06-12, 07:42 PM

This argument usually ignores the ways circumstances beyond Nale's control favor Nale.

For example, looking at your very first point, I cannot help but note that Nale's plan would never have gotten off the ground without the Order being fully as gullible as the guards in question--such that it never occurred to them that the "Elan" who told them constantly and randomly, "I'm Elan!" didn't remember Belkar's name, didn't keep his mouth shut about any of the ways his knowledge and worldview differed from Elan's and in fact reflexively shoved himself into the Order members' perceptions, and made out with strange male guards, wasn't actually Elan.

If dramatic conventions weren't such a major, objective force in the OotS world, Nale would be long dead.

Good point. I guess they're all a bunch of complete bunglers who rely on drama and humor to survive, then. :smallbiggrin:

I'd still argue that Nale isn't any more incompetent than the Order, though.

Gift Jeraff

2013-06-12, 07:45 PM

I think Nale's more of an Ultros than a Kefka. And there's nothing wrong with Ultros!

Bluepaw

2013-06-12, 08:36 PM

I'd just like to register that little in this world makes me happier than memories of and references to FF3/6. Kudos to y'all.

That being said, I'd stand with those getting the tingly sense that, with Rich being as creative and (now we realize) emotionally potent a writer as he is, Nale's sorry ass isn't just a punchline or a punching bag, or even a continuing irritant for the readers to grind their teeth. What that means I'm not sure, but I wouldn't doubt that he will yet bumble his way into an even more dangerous and monstrous position before the end...

Peelee

2013-06-12, 08:39 PM

Sooo, Nale shouldn't act as such an incompetent because we already know he is? :smallconfused:
This, in a nutshell.

Portraying Nale as incompetent and then having him act incompetently isn't hammering the point home. It's staying true to the character as written.

Ellye

2013-06-12, 08:52 PM

One thing I enjoy about the way Nale is portrayed is that, even though he is incompetent and relatively weak, he's still a real threat. And even more so now than ever.

Also, I think that either Nale dies here in this Western Continent arc, or only at the end of the story.

Water_Bear

2013-06-12, 10:00 PM

Other people have said everything I usually do about Nale's plans actually being pretty good, if over-complicated, so I'll leave that bit alone.

What is impossible to ignore is the assumption some people are making that Tarquin is going to outlive Nale, survive past the end of the book, or even replace him as a secondary villain. This is a really weird idea I can't wrap my head around.

Look at it like this;

Tarquin's whole schtick by this point is a two part "smug douche" and "ruled by dramatic conventions." He knows the villains never get their way in the end, but thinks he can rig the game by making "losing" part of the plan.
Tarquin fully expects his underdog son (Elan) to come up from behind and kill him, welcomes it, has even baked that idea into his Master Plan. Which he revealed in full detail to the audience, complete with smug grin.
He views his son (Nale) with contempt and has spent a lot of time heaping scorn on him. Separating him from his allies, surrounding him with enemies, doing everything possible to put him in a position where even getting out alive is unlikely and coming out on top is hanging out at roughly 999,999:1.
Malak killed Durkon, turning him into a vampire and intending to keep him as a pet for the foreseeable future. Those of us who read Origin of PCs know this cannot happen. There is no way I can see Malak surviving this, not with all of the emotions and plot tied up in Durkon's death.

I don't know about you, but this all seems like build up to a big twist. Tarquin needs to be put in his place, which means his plan needs to fail, ironically, and in a way he didn't foresee. Malak needs to die, both to free Count Durkula and to give him his "just desserts," with sooner better than later. Nale has been dismissed completely by Tarquin, Malak is barely restraining himself from killing him, and he has been handed his ass in more and more humiliating ways the whole Book. And the "main plot" is muscling its way back in, with Team Evil's arrival being teased at repeatedly.

I don't think it's unreasonable to suspect that Tarquin's dramatically necessary humiliation, Malak's plot-important and satisfying death, and the return of Team Evil to the spotlight Tarquin and Co have been hogging are all going to be resolved by Nale managing to overcome the odds and prove his father wrong.

Not to mention that with him so tied into the IFCC plot, and Sabine and Thog (no body, no death) still kicking, it would be weird to kill him off now.

NZNinja

2013-06-12, 10:29 PM

Nale [...] coming out on top is hanging out at roughly 999,999:1.

:elan: A 10% chance is pretty unlikely, but everyone knows that a one-in-a-million chance is a sure thing!

:vaarsuvius: *sigh* And once again, Probability proves itself willing to sneak into a back alley and service Drama as would a copper-piece harlot. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0584.html)

I could see Elan spoiling his father's plans, besting him in whatever manner he has prepared, only for Nale to swoop in with a dagger to the back when Tarquin's hit points are low and his defenses lowered in surrender. If it were to happen mid-redemption speech, then it would also serve to further hammer a wedge into the rift between Elan and Nale (although I suspect a large part of Elan's Illusion revelation was that Nale and Tarquin are irredeemable, so driving them further apart may be beating a dead horse).

ti'esar

2013-06-12, 11:22 PM

I would love so much to see Nale somehow get the better of Tarquin, but I don't see it happening.

CowardlyPaladin

2013-06-12, 11:34 PM

Three points

1) Nale wasn't relying upon dramatic convention when he joined the order, he was relying upon a high bluff check and how in D&D you can literally say "I'm Elan" and people will believe you. That and the fact that Elan totally would say taht
2) Why do people keep saying Nale can't improvise, I can think of three examples. Belkar finding him out, turning Elan against Haley, and getting Sabrine to not kill him. All of which required very quick thinking
3) He is still most likely a better swordsmen than Elan, remember Elan last fought him when he was armed with a dagger and didn't have any armor, while Elan had a class based bonus and an enchanted keen rapier.

Now what makes Nale inept is the fact the doesn't limit himself, he is like the person who dreams big but can't do the details, he remarkably slipshot

Copperdragon

2013-06-13, 05:03 AM

I'd still argue that Nale isn't any more incompetent than the Order, though.

He is, I fear. They start out very similar, but Nale is doing two things the Order is not:
First, he's so full of himself that he's not seeing anything he does not want to see. The Order is not that, with the exception of Vaarsuvius. Of course, Vaarsuvius is not the leader of the group (and what happens without Roy around we have seen).
Second, the Order works as a group. The LG works with Nale as a leader who gets maipulated by Sabine once in while into not-doing the very stupid things.

We have seen Nale being along on occasions (posing as Elan, now) and in all those cases he lined mistake to stupid to mistake.

Also, if you say "his plans are foiled by circumstance" that is just a cheap way out and only shows that Nale's not planning well. Yes, any plan can get foiled by circrumstance but if that happens often to you, your plans simply are not solid enough.

Kish

2013-06-13, 05:20 AM

Three points

1) Nale wasn't relying upon dramatic convention when he joined the order,
He was relying on an utterly deluded concept of himself as a genius and great deceiver.

If you say, "He has so many ranks in Bluff that he knew he could just not try to be plausible and they'd believe him anyway"--well, I think you're wrong, but even if you're right, that means he has no excuse for not knowing Elan would be out of jail almost immediately.

The Succubus

2013-06-13, 05:25 AM

I think Nale's more of an Ultros than a Kefka. And there's nothing wrong with Ultros!

I just had an image of Ultros and Sabine together. Thanks for that. :smalleek:

Needle

2013-06-13, 05:35 AM

I just had an image of Ultros and Sabine together. Thanks for that. :smalleek:

Don't tease the octopus kids! (had to)

KillianHawkeye

2013-06-13, 07:17 AM

I just had an image of Ultros and Sabine together. Thanks for that. :smalleek:

Don't tease the octopus kids! (had to)

Yeeouch! Seafood soup! :smallwink::smallbiggrin:

Reathin

2013-06-13, 07:28 AM

Warning: Incoming Anti-Nale bias.

Had to make an account just to ask this

I think the fact that "Nale is a second-rate wannabe-villain that doesn't really know his head from his ass" has been adequately conveyed in the comics thus far

Really ever since Tarquin entered the picture Nale has just been more and more relegated to the role of butt-monkey

Which is both appropriate AND amusing!

Rich even made it a point to tell us, the readers, that he's now and unsuspecting pawn being manipulated by more than one party

The one important role he serves: to give a little window into more interesting villains.

Why all the emphasis on how pathetic he is?

Again, amusing and appropriate. The other options are to change him by making him competant or just leaving him out of the story altogether (although I don't really object to the latter).

My thoughts are A) he'll wind up being the true Big Bad, outsmarting everyone in a Kefka-esque twist, made all the more unexpected by how much we've been ingrained that he's incapable of that

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

or

B) He'll join the good guys after some "character development" since he's just, such a really crappy villain. This may play into Elan's "happy ending"

Putting aside the fact that even Elan realizes just how much of a terrible person his brother is, who isn't likely to just let him walk after all the awful things he's done:

:belkar: "Hey, you remember when your kobold shot my cat with a bolt?
:nale: "Well, yeah, but I don't see how that's..."
:belkar: *somehow manages to trump feeding a man his own intestines in the gruesome death department*

It seems far too heavy-handed to just end up being played straight. We already get that he's pathetic, there's no reason to keep driving the point home at this point if nothing's going to turn that on its head.

Maybe, but I somehow doubt it. The Giant is really, really good at subverting expectation, but if he did that for absolutely everything the subversion would be the new normal. I suspect Nale is played quite straight: the full-of-himself twit whose in WAY over his head. He's a B movie villain, seeming to lack any real goal of his own beyond being an annoyance and hogging precious screen time.

Zerter

2013-06-13, 07:39 AM

If dramatic conventions weren't such a major, objective force in the OotS world, Nale would be long dead.

I am going to go with this. Where Miko represents Lawful Stupid for Rich, Nale for me represents the most annoying kind of player. Kept alive no matter how stupid he is. I hope he dies quick and ugly.

Coat

2013-06-13, 07:48 AM

... I wouldn't doubt that he will yet bumble his way into an even more dangerous and monstrous position before the end...

This.

Nale is a monster. He's vile and sadistic, and has pretty much no moral boundaries. In what we've seen in OotS so far, that's actually pretty unusual: Even Tarquin has lines he won't cross. And while Xykon may have left the moral event horizon behind him years ago, he has the attention span of a hyperactive lemming.

Absolute unfettered Evil, in OotS, is pretty rare - even Xykon's not out to destroy the world, because some of his best evil takes place there (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0442.html). Nale, on the other hand, would happily rip the whole cosmos a new one just out of petty spite, and without thinking about where he's going to stand to admire the mess.

The only thing stopping Nale from being a real threat is his own crippling lack of power. Put him in a tough enough spot - and we could be on the way there - and I think he would take any offer that would get him out of it. No matter the strings attached.

pendell

2013-06-13, 08:35 AM

It wouldn't surprise me if Nale did not outlive the book. The members of the Linear Guild have been steadily cropped out of the picture -- first Thog , then Sabine. Neither were confirmed as permanently removed from the strip when they had a building fall on them and banished, respectively. So they might come back.

But on the other hand, the steady attrition of linear guild members one by one may be leading up to their final annihilation. As a team, at any rate, even if some members survive.

We do know that at least one member of the LG will continue to exist after the book, and that is Count Durkula. We already have a specific prophecy that he will return to the dwarven lands posthumously bringing death and destruction. Whether he will be accompanied by Tarquin, by Nale, by someone else, or completely on his own is still up for debate. But the fact that we are guaranteed at least one LG survivor* is not.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

* He's not technically a survivor because he's undead. But I don't know a better word.

Gift Jeraff

2013-06-13, 08:43 AM

^Sabine's banishment was explicitly said to only last 24 hours.

Morty

2013-06-13, 09:13 AM

I'd still argue that Nale isn't any more incompetent than the Order, though.

The difference is that the Order members recognize their weaknesses and have been progressively working against them. Nale is absolutely convinced he's an evil mastermind, so he's unlikely to ever change, no matter how many times he's trounced.

pendell

2013-06-13, 09:14 AM

Yes. And we will see at that time whether she has a reason to come back, or will be reassigned to other duties. Twice in the books The LG has been rescued by Sabine

At the end of book one (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0120.html).

And Pompeii in Cliffport (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0356.html).

Now Nale doesn't have a big meatshield or a shapechanging fiend to pull his chestnuts out of a fire.

He's in the position he tried to put Elan in Cliffport (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0351.html). Allies distracted and scattered, of his bodyguards only Zzdtri is left, and the one person with the tactical acumen to figure it out (Tarquin) has voluntarily absented himself.

Nale is in exactly Elan's position, except that where Nale tried to do it to Elan, this time Nale has done it to himself.

He could still get out of it but it's karma-riffic all the same.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

AngryHobbit

2013-06-13, 09:38 AM

Warren Dew

2013-06-13, 09:43 AM

Why all the emphasis on how pathetic he is?
I don't think this is being objectively emphasized to a greater degree than in the past.

I do think it's more noticeable now, because Elan has improved in competency and Nale has not. In the past, Nale's competence was not highlighted as much because he at least looked more competent than Elan; now, Nale looks incompetent even compared to Elan.

From the overall story standpoint, I think it's less about Nale, and more about Elan's character growth.

pendell

2013-06-13, 10:22 AM

I think that Nale is going to be one of the only major villain (maybe including Thog, and, depends how his character development goes at the end, Redcloak, although its much less likely) who will survive.

He is (almost) harmless villain. They tend to survive.

Almost harmless? He's a murderer (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0361.html).

And an attempted murderer of his own brother (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0056.html)

And some attempted murders would have been extremely cruel (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0383.html).

OOTS has a heapin' helpin' o Karma and irony.Tsukiko was killed by her own wights. The Order of the Scribble have been undone by their own flaws.

No, Nale is not walking away from this. I suspect the only way he can avoid a horrific karma-riffic end in either this book or the next one (there's only one more, right? After the end of this one?) is if he does a full heel face term, repents, and is redeemed. But TBH, I think that's more likely for Redcloak. Nale hasn't really demonstrated, so far as I can see, any more empathy than Xykon has shown and doesn't seems to be developing it. He appears to be walking ever further down the road of Lawful Evil, not coming back up it.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Rogar Demonblud

2013-06-13, 11:12 AM

Why does Rich keep hammering on Nale? What else would you do to him? I mean, it's right there in his name.

pendell

2013-06-13, 11:20 AM

Why does Rich keep hammering on Nale? What else would you do to him? I mean, it's right there in his name.

I hereby pronounce you thread victor. Have an internet cookie.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

The Pilgrim

2013-06-13, 11:29 AM

Look at it like this;

Tarquin's whole schtick by this point is a two part "smug douche" and "ruled by dramatic conventions." He knows the villains never get their way in the end, but thinks he can rig the game by making "losing" part of the plan.
Tarquin fully expects his underdog son (Elan) to come up from behind and kill him, welcomes it, has even baked that idea into his Master Plan. Which he revealed in full detail to the audience, complete with smug grin.
He views his son (Nale) with contempt and has spent a lot of time heaping scorn on him. Separating him from his allies, surrounding him with enemies, doing everything possible to put him in a position where even getting out alive is unlikely and coming out on top is hanging out at roughly 999,999:1.
Malak killed Durkon, turning him into a vampire and intending to keep him as a pet for the foreseeable future. Those of us who read Origin of PCs know this cannot happen. There is no way I can see Malak surviving this, not with all of the emotions and plot tied up in Durkon's death.

I don't know about you, but this all seems like build up to a big twist. Tarquin needs to be put in his place, which means his plan needs to fail, ironically, and in a way he didn't foresee. Malak needs to die, both to free Count Durkula and to give him his "just desserts," with sooner better than later. Nale has been dismissed completely by Tarquin, Malak is barely restraining himself from killing him, and he has been handed his ass in more and more humiliating ways the whole Book. And the "main plot" is muscling its way back in, with Team Evil's arrival being teased at repeatedly.

I don't think it's unreasonable to suspect that Tarquin's dramatically necessary humiliation, Malak's plot-important and satisfying death, and the return of Team Evil to the spotlight Tarquin and Co have been hogging are all going to be resolved by Nale managing to overcome the odds and prove his father wrong.

I wonder why people asume so easily that Tarquin actually told Elan the truth about his long-term plans.

EmperorSarda

2013-06-13, 11:32 AM

I wonder why people asume so easily that Tarquin actually told Elan the truth about his long-term plans.

To motivate Elan further into brooding about the conflict of having to fight his own father?

luc258

2013-06-13, 11:57 AM

There is already Redcloak for scheming and competent villain.
Xykon for brute-force and competent.
Tarquin for sympathetic, scheming and competent.
Malack for extremely lawful and competent.
There is space for one incompetent villain, and his name is Nale. Since he used to be the evil mirror image of Elan, who also happens to be not the most competent of the OOTS, it fits imo.

CowardlyPaladin

2013-06-13, 12:07 PM

I don't think Nale is the more evil than Xykon, he at least has a few loved ones, and some basic standards, and if he was the overarching ruler of the world he would be slightly less awful. Not saying much but still

AngryHobbit

2013-06-13, 02:49 PM

Almost harmless? He's a murderer (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0361.html).

And an attempted murderer of his own brother (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0056.html)

And some attempted murders would have been extremely cruel (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0383.html).

OOTS has a heapin' helpin' o Karma and irony.Tsukiko was killed by her own wights. The Order of the Scribble have been undone by their own flaws.

No, Nale is not walking away from this. I suspect the only way he can avoid a horrific karma-riffic end in either this book or the next one (there's only one more, right? After the end of this one?) is if he does a full heel face term, repents, and is redeemed. But TBH, I think that's more likely for Redcloak. Nale hasn't really demonstrated, so far as I can see, any more empathy than Xykon has shown and doesn't seems to be developing it. He appears to be walking ever further down the road of Lawful Evil, not coming back up it.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Well, harmless was a bad word. Less of a threat compared to every other major villain.
Off course, I'm not going to end unhurt. In jail or something similar.

As for Redcloak, that's wishful thinking. He didn't back down when hi did you know what in Start of Darkness. It's more about that I don't want bad future for the surviving Goblinoids, and they need a leader. Maybe Jirix surviving instead of him.
And then again Overcomplicating Evil Mastermind Wannabe<<Omnicidal Maniac when it comes to evilness. I might go as far to say that Belkar pre-"fake" character development is much more evil than Nale.

Reddish Mage

2013-06-13, 03:19 PM

Well, harmless was a bad word. Less of a threat compared to every other major villain.
Off course, I'm not going to end unhurt. In jail or something similar.

As for Redcloak, that's wishful thinking. He didn't back down when hi did you know what in Start of Darkness. It's more about that I don't want bad future for the surviving Goblinoids, and they need a leader. Maybe Jirix surviving instead of him.
And then again Overcomplicating Evil Mastermind Wannabe<<Omnicidal Maniac when it comes to evilness. I might go as far to say that Belkar pre-"fake" character development is much more evil than Nale.

I think once we established people are cruel mass-murderers (and I think Nale's murders have been crueler than Belkar's but not as cruel as Xykon) I think we are at a stage of "evil" enough to be really truly evil.

I wonder at Rich's characterization of Belkar's evil as "casual" in Book 2 (as Belkar isn't dedicated to any evil force) but I would note that Nale is intentionally aligned with dark forces through his relationship with Sabine (even if he is unaware to what extent). Nale also sees himself as evil in the classic comic book villain-style (ha ha ha! I, Nale am Evil! I have cruel plots and tedious monologues!).

Obscure Blade

2013-06-13, 04:30 PM

Nale hasn't really demonstrated, so far as I can see, any more empathy than Xykon has shown and doesn't seems to be developing it. He appears to be walking ever further down the road of Lawful Evil, not coming back up it.Not even "Lawful" Evil (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=286525). Evil, definitely? Lawful? Nope.

The only thing stopping Nale from being a real threat is his own crippling lack of power. Put him in a tough enough spot - and we could be on the way there - and I think he would take any offer that would get him out of it. No matter the strings attached.Hmmm. Given that he's an unknowing puppet of the IFFC, there's the possibility that when he finally ends up pushed into a corner (or in the afterlife?) they'll show up and make him an offer, or have Sabine do so as a representative. The IFFC finds him useful, and might decide to put him back into play more openly under their control. He's exactly the sort who'd take that kind of offer either without thinking about the strings, or figuring that he can weasel out of them later because he's a Genius.

Burner28

2013-06-13, 04:48 PM

I don't think this is being objectively emphasized to a greater degree than in the past.

I do think it's more noticeable now, because Elan has improved in competency and Nale has not. In the past, Nale's competence was not highlighted as much because he at least looked more competent than Elan; now, Nale looks incompetent even compared to Elan.

From the overall story standpoint, I think it's less about Nale, and more about Elan's character growth.

Agreed. Back in the early strips, where the Order was so much more incompetent and the comic was much less serious than now, Nale would have comparatively seemed more able to threaten the Order than now, where, whilst Nale has not become more incompetent, Nale's incompetence seems more obvious when compared to someone much more cunning such as Tarquin.

No, Nale is not walking away from this. I suspect the only way he can avoid a horrific karma-riffic end in either this book or the next one (there's only one more, right? After the end of this one?) is if he does a full heel face term, repents, and is redeemed. But TBH, I think that's more likely for Redcloak. Nale hasn't really demonstrated, so far as I can see, any more empathy than Xykon has shown and doesn't seems to be developing it. He appears to be walking ever further down the road of Lawful Evil, not coming back up it.

Didn't the Giant have a quote about how he felt that Nale is no less Evil than Xykon?

ti'esar

2013-06-13, 05:02 PM

Didn't the Giant have a quote about how he felt that Nale is no less Evil than Xykon?

Yeah, I quoted it on the first page. The only real difference is power (well, that and the fact that Nale genuinely seems to care about Sabine, whereas Xykon seems to be literally incapable of anything similar).

pendell

2013-06-13, 06:31 PM

Not even "Lawful" Evil (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=286525). Evil, definitely? Lawful? Nope.

With respect, that's a forum thread you linked but the Giant himself declared Nale to be lawful evil in-comic in strip 57 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0057.html). Nale explicitly says "I'm lawful evil."

Of course, that was hundreds of strips ago so he could have made an alignment change, but I would think such a radical character change would be shown on-panel. Ergo, I believe he remains lawful evil.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Kish

2013-06-13, 06:47 PM

With respect, that's a forum thread you linked but the Giant himself declared Nale to be lawful evil in-comic in strip 57 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0057.html). Nale explicitly says "I'm lawful evil."

Of course, that was hundreds of strips ago so he could have made an alignment change, but I would think such a radical character change would be shown on-panel. Ergo, I believe he remains lawful evil.

Respectfully,

Brian P.
Uh.

Nale isn't the Giant. I'm blinking at your self-contradiction there, going from "the Giant himself" to "Nale."

Nale declared himself to be Lawful Evil. Rich did not declare him to be anything in strip #57, because Rich isn't in strip #57.

Nale clearly believed himself to be Lawful Evil in strip #57. I would be surprised to learn he doesn't still consider himself such. That doesn't mean he ever was right, much less that he's right now.

mhsmith

2013-06-13, 07:06 PM

Kish

2013-06-13, 07:33 PM

Maybe I'm wrong, but isn't the "mystery person who can make the gates work" Team Evil?
...Huh? I searched through the post you quoted, and then through the entire thread, for that phrase.

Who said something about a mystery person who can make the gates work?

mhsmith

2013-06-13, 07:39 PM

...Huh? I searched through the post you quoted, and then through the entire thread, for that phrase.

Who said something about a mystery person who can make the gates work?

Nale. "I know who does. I've worked with them before. You won't get it without my help. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0821.html)"

Obscure Blade

2013-06-13, 07:49 PM

With respect, that's a forum thread you linked but the Giant himself declared Nale to be lawful evil in-comic in strip 57 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0057.html). Nale explicitly says "I'm lawful evil." That's Nale, not the Giant. The Giant's comment, linked in that forum thread was:

Even bigger example. Nale. He never seems to do anything Lawful at all. He doesn't have a code. He doesn't follow traditions of law. He would break any code he had if he got his father's empire and his brother's eternal torment. He'd probably backstab Sabine if he had to.
Interesting, that. Don't you think? :smallwink:

Thokk_Smash

2013-06-13, 07:54 PM

Nale. "I know who does. I've worked with them before. You won't get it without my help. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0821.html)"

If I'm not mistaken, what he meant when he asked that was: Who in this thread mentioned the "mystery person who can make the gates work"? Why did you quote that post and then talk about a "mystery person who can make the gates work" when that wasn't mentioned in the post itself?

pendell

2013-06-13, 08:30 PM

Uh.

Nale isn't the Giant. I'm blinking at your self-contradiction there, going from "the Giant himself" to "Nale."

Nale declared himself to be Lawful Evil. Rich did not declare him to be anything in strip #57, because Rich isn't in strip #57.

Nale clearly believed himself to be Lawful Evil in strip #57. I would be surprised to learn he doesn't still consider himself such. That doesn't mean he ever was right, much less that he's right now.

Many moons ago, the Giant made a comment that people would continue to believe Belkar was CN if he had Belkar turn to the camera and say "I'm chaotic evil!"

In point of fact, he DID put that in-comic in the Shojo dream sequence. Belkar explicitly and directly declared his alignment.

Nale ALSO explicitly , directly declared his alignment. And there was a time when he did indeed fulfill his contract with Xykon to uphold his lawful alignment. Plus, it's his declared intent, and intent has to count for something, doesn't it?

So I will continue to believe his alignment he is lawful evil absent some major shift in his outlook on-panel, which we have not yet witnessed.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

The Pilgrim

2013-06-13, 09:13 PM

That's Nale, not the Giant. The Giant's comment, linked in that forum thread was:

Looks more like a foreshadowing about the outcome of the relationship between Nale and Sabine, more than a declaration that Nale is non-lawful.

thereaper

2013-06-13, 10:08 PM

Many moons ago, the Giant made a comment that people would continue to believe Belkar was CN if he had Belkar turn to the camera and say "I'm chaotic evil!"

In point of fact, he DID put that in-comic in the Shojo dream sequence. Belkar explicitly and directly declared his alignment.

Nale ALSO explicitly , directly declared his alignment. And there was a time when he did indeed fulfill his contract with Xykon to uphold his lawful alignment. Plus, it's his declared intent, and intent has to count for something, doesn't it?

So I will continue to believe his alignment he is lawful evil absent some major shift in his outlook on-panel, which we have not yet witnessed.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

I'm not going to say that Nale is or is not LE, but by the argument you're making (that anything a character says is the author's words), that would mean, for example, that Elan assigned his intelligence stat (which the Giant has said is not so).

There are probably several more contradictions in it, but I think one is enough for our purposes.

Obscure Blade

2013-06-13, 10:12 PM

Looks more like a foreshadowing about the outcome of the relationship between Nale and Sabine, more than a declaration that Nale is non-lawful.
It looks to me more that Nale isn't Lawful now if he ever was, and with typical Nale non-self-awareness he hasn't realized it.

Emanick

2013-06-13, 10:19 PM

It looks to me more that Nale isn't Lawful now if he ever was, and with typical Nale non-self-awareness he hasn't realized it.

Personally, I think we'd need some pretty strong evidence that a character was mistaken about his own alignment before dismissing him as wrong. Surely he ought to be an expert on it, if anybody is. An extremely ambiguous statement on the subject from The Giant is not "pretty strong evidence," at least not to me.

brionl

2013-06-13, 10:24 PM

I wonder why people asume so easily that Tarquin actually told Elan the truth about his long-term plans.

Because that's his archetype. The honorable villain who always tells the truth, but in a misleading way. Like when he gave Elan the flying carpet and said his associate took it from somebody who only "missed it for a couple of seconds." Or you know, the whole sending 500 Dragoons to the Free City of Doom thing.

Copperdragon

2013-06-14, 12:20 AM

With respect, that's a forum thread you linked but the Giant himself declared Nale to be lawful evil in-comic in strip 57 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0057.html). Nale explicitly says "I'm lawful evil."

As Kish pointed out, that is Nale's perspective. It's not Rich confirming it.[/QUOTE]

Many moons ago, the Giant made a comment that people would continue to believe Belkar was CN if he had Belkar turn to the camera and say "I'm chaotic evil!"

In point of fact, he DID put that in-comic in the Shojo dream sequence. Belkar explicitly and directly declared his alignment.

First, it's in line with what we do see in the comic.
What we see does not show Nale is LE, but NE (Lawful and chaotic tendencies often come down to the midlle, it's the same "threat" Roy lives under, just Nale is even more chaotic than him).

[QUOTE]Nale ALSO explicitly , directly declared his alignment. And there was a time when he did indeed fulfill his contract with Xykon to uphold his lawful alignment. Plus, it's his declared intent, and intent has to count for something, doesn't it?

A direct declaration is not always as reliable as another direct declaration. Estimating how reliable a given source is in regard to the specific information is part of believing anything you hear or read. Part of that estimation is also "can the source actually know reliably what it communicates" and that is something where I'd rate Belkar in regard to his alignment much higher than Nale in regard to his. Nale wants to be like his father, but does not notice he is not - and that also includes the attempt to be LE, but failing at that.

If a direct declaration is your golden thumb (cows and calves are religion :smallwink:), then you must believe Tarquin when he says he's not evil. Even Malack is still a matter of question, even when he more-or-less (how much "more" or "less" depends on your interpretation) stated he's neutral.
If I tell you "I am awesome!" or "I am a good cook" it does not have to be true (it can be, like in the case of Belkar being CE).

In regard to Nale we know he's deluded and specifically Rich popped into that forum-thread and basically confirmed with his comment that Nale's statement about him being LE is taken to be with a few barrels of salt.

137beth

2013-06-14, 01:03 AM

Guys! Unless I missed something as I skimmed over the last three pages, this:

there's no reason to keep driving the point home at this point if nothing's going to turn that on its head.
was in the first post, and yet more than 2 pages in, no one has mentioned this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12511062#post12511062):

Also, as a general rule of thumb, no one should say the sentence, "There's no (or no other) possible narrative purpose for Rich to have done X!" until the story is completed. Because there's always a narrative purpose, you just haven't thought of what it is.

Copperdragon

2013-06-14, 01:38 AM

And your conclusion from that is?

Thrillhouse

2013-06-14, 01:45 AM

Couldn't Nale just be lying or mistaken about his alignment? I mean, he was "raised" Lawful Evil but perhaps never really considered if he bought into it?

I mean, it does seem that characters in this comic are aware of the alignment system as sort of a more-real-than-normal-cuz-of-magic philosophical system. We've got a fairly clearly Lawful Evil Tarquin being quite dismissive of the whole idea of alignment.

Simply because Nale SAYS he's LE doesn't mean he is, anymore than Belkar blocking the Detect Evil scan with his lead sheet means he's Neutral.

Copperdragon

2013-06-14, 02:18 AM

Yes, this is in line what I also argue for.

Also note that Roy thought his whole life he was Lawful Good, but it required an official investigation when he was dead to actually confirm that. And it was not a clear case at that.
Roy might very well have been mistaken about him being LG, if he was a bit more choatic, the Deva would have moved him to NG. So a statement about an aligment is far from a solid confirmation, it only is if that statement actually reflects the deeds (and motives) of that character. In short: it must fit the character.

Statement about the own alignment by that same character:
Tarquin -> not Evil: Wrong
Nale -> Lawful: Wrong
Roy -> Lawful (Good): Correct (yet: required confirmation by The Powers That Are)
Redcloak -> Lawful: Correct
Shojo -> Chaotic: Correct
Did I miss anyone?

The Pilgrim

2013-06-14, 04:09 AM

Because that's his archetype. The honorable villain who always tells the truth, but in a misleading way. Like when he gave Elan the flying carpet and said his associate took it from somebody who only "missed it for a couple of seconds." Or you know, the whole sending 500 Dragoons to the Free City of Doom thing.

What exactly has Tarquin done in the strip to qualify as "honorable"?

Obscure Blade

2013-06-14, 04:12 AM

So a statement about an aligment is far from a solid confirmation, it only is if that statement actually reflects the deeds (and motives) of that character. In short: it must fit the character.

Statement about the own alignment by that same character:
Tarquin -> not Evil: Wrong
Nale -> Lawful: Wrong
Roy -> Lawful (Good): Correct (yet: required confirmation by The Powers That Are)
Redcloak -> Lawful: Correct
Shojo -> Chaotic: Correct
Did I miss anyone?Belkar -> Chaotic Evil (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0610.html): Correct (possibly sliding towards Chaotic Neutral by now however)

Copperdragon

2013-06-14, 05:01 AM

Belkar -> Chaotic Evil (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0610.html): Correct

Ah, yes. I was not entirely sure which scene it was, so I left it out.

(possibly sliding towards Chaotic Neutral by now however)

No way. He's still as evil as he was before, he's just not as uncontrolled.

MReav

2013-06-14, 05:30 AM

There is already Redcloak for scheming and competent villain.
Tarquin for sympathetic, scheming and competent.

Tarquin, sympathetic?! A guy who murders his wives with regularity, betrays his nominal allies, has people executed for the most petty of reasons up to and including making references to Star Wars, and has slaves burned to death to write his son a message? I think you switched Redcloak and Tarquin in there.

ChristianSt

2013-06-14, 05:36 AM

Statement about the own alignment by that same character:
Tarquin -> not Evil: Wrong
Nale -> Lawful: Wrong
Roy -> Lawful (Good): Correct (yet: required confirmation by The Powers That Are)
Redcloak -> Lawful: Correct
Shojo -> Chaotic: Correct
Did I miss anyone?

Where in the comic does Tarquin state that he is not Evil? (Only thing he does, he states he is "above good and evil" in the dialogue with Elan in 760 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0760.html)/762 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0762.html) (he doesn't even say something which implies "not evil" - he simply does not answer the question, which normally points more to evil)
And where is the proof that Nales statement is wrong? (I know the Giant hinted, and if I would state something I would put him more in NE than LE, but I wouldn't exclude LE from being possibly)

Copperdragon

2013-06-14, 05:59 AM

Kish

2013-06-14, 06:05 AM

Nale. "I know who does. I've worked with them before. You won't get it without my help. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0821.html)"
Let me rephrase.

Why did you quote the entire post from Water_Bear and respond to it with something that didn't address anything in it?

[...]
You want to believe Nale is Lawful Evil because he said so, go ahead. Based on what Rich said I think you're swimming uphill at this point, but that's not important.

Just don't claim Rich said he's Lawful Evil, because he didn't.

pendell

2013-06-14, 06:13 AM

Just don't claim Rich said he's Lawful Evil, because he didn't.

How about "Rich put those words in his mouth"? I think that's an accurate claim. I concede that viewpoint statements are not Word of Author and that it is possible that , if Nale was not mistaken then, he may be now because his alignment has shifted without his knowledge.

Stupid question: How often do people in D&D know their own alignment? How expensive is it to go to the local temple and have the local cleric cast detect X to find out what the OOTS gods think of it?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Kish

2013-06-14, 06:35 AM

The question about D&D is sufficiently fraught that I'm going to evade it by pointing out the lack of a fourth wall in OotS, Nale's clear statement that he is Lawful Evil which definitely establishes how he sees himself, and Nale's...ah, issues...which mean both that he would never think to check his self-image with a priest and that he would respond to a priest daring to tell him, "You're Chaotic!" with immediate priest-i-cide.

Copperdragon

2013-06-14, 07:10 AM

How about "Rich put those words in his mouth"?

I ask... so what? Does this mean Rich cannot make Nale lie or be wrong entirely? No, not at all.

I think that's an accurate claim.
That is somewhat contradicted by what we see in the comic AND what the author implied in the forum.

Stupid question: How often do people in D&D know their own alignment?

Usually, that is a non-issue as the players have it confirmed on the character sheet and do not think twice about this. In OotS? It is not that clear, see Roy and the Deva. I'd not be surprised if Nale was the only one who's living a life and is mistaken about his own alignment. I think what happens to Tarquin happens to many, they do not think of themselves as "evil", or many probably think they are "good" but as they never actually stop to actually help people, they are (actually) neutral.
Once you take away the character sheet, this issue becomes much for fuzzy for the acutal characters*.

* Which is good, as the alignment then becomes "what you do and why you do it", not "what is written down".

Obscure Blade

2013-06-14, 07:29 AM

Tarquin, sympathetic?! A guy who murders his wives with regularity, betrays his nominal allies, has people executed for the most petty of reasons up to and including making references to Star Wars, and has slaves burned to death to write his son a message? I think you switched Redcloak and Tarquin in there.
Yeah. Redcloak is sympathetic evil. Tarquin is likable evil, cool evil; the kind of villain who does his villainy with such style and surface friendliness that it's easy to forget just how villainous he is until he demonstrates it with, well, giant flaming letters made of burning slaves.

Copperdragon

2013-06-14, 07:46 AM

cool evil;

As Draco Malfoy had to learn: Evil is not likeable. Evil is not cool. Evil is simply wrong.
I think OotS brings that over very nicely. The character can be awesome in some way, but there's no such thing as "cool Evil".

Redcloak is also not sympathetic, I think. But did you read Start of Darkness?

ChristianSt

2013-06-14, 09:10 AM

If you are asked if you are evil and then dodge that question by a lengthy explanation how you think the concept of evil isn't actually applying to the world in general, you're basically saying "No, I'm not considering myself evil".
That's fine and can hardly be argued with - as long as "Good", "Evil" and "Neutral" are not fundamental mechanisms of the universe. Which in case of the OotS-verse, they are.
By everything we know about alignment (including that everyone has one in D&D) we have to rate Tarquin as evil.

He states he is not evil, but he is. Which means he's wrong in estimating himself. Also, it's not just a lie he tells Elan, he probably believes it himself (as there would be little point in denying it when it's as obvious as it is, instead he could have ranted about "Alignment does not force us to hate etc other, it does not govern how you have to act as a character, blablabla".

For me there is a difference between
a) saying: "I'm not evil"
b) not saying: "I'm evil"
Tarquin did b) (in my opinion very clearly - he didn't rant about evil, he more or less ranted about the alignment system, and even then, for Elan it should be clear that Above Good and Evil (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AboveGoodAndEvil) usually means evil). And I would even say he somewhat implied that he is Evil in 762 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0762.html): *paraphrased*
:elan:: I surrender, kill me!
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Tarquin.png: No I don't want to kill you.
:elan:: But why, you are Evil?
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Tarquin.png: Even if I would be put into this "Alignment System", I wouldn't kill you because you are my family.

Why would Tarquin answer in this way if he wanted to say "I'm not evil"? This statement makes only sense if Tarquin implies that he would be Evil under the alignment system. if he wanted to say "I'm not evil" he should say something like: "Even if I where evil, I wouldn't kill you".

And later in the strip he offers his help, Elan again responding with "You are evil!". And he doesn't say anything against that, but simple pointing out that bigger Evil guys are a problem for him, too (not because he is not evil, but because he rules a third of the continent)

[And I know that Tarquin is LE, that wasn't my question - what Tarquin thinks about himself is another question, but I don't think he would think:"I am Good/Neutral"]

Reddish Mage

2013-06-14, 09:24 AM

The Pilgrim

2013-06-14, 09:45 AM

He states he is not evil, but he is. Which means he's wrong in estimating himself.

No, it means he knows it's not clever to go around with a big "HELLO ADVENTURERS I'M EVIL KILL ME" sign all over his head.

I'm sure Tarquin knows pretty well which alignment-wise artifacts he can use and which can't, and whose alignment-based spells he has to avoid and whose can use to his benefit.

In other words, you won't catch Tarquin asking Malack to cast "Holy Smite" while he is around.

(yes I know Malack probably can't cast Holy Smite, but that's not the point)

BTW, a clear example of a character estimating his alignment incorrectly is Therkla, who is supposed to be True Neutral according to The Giant, yet is afraid from the "Detect Evil" ability of the Paladins.

137beth

2013-06-14, 11:02 AM

Redcloak is also not sympathetic, I think. But did you read Start of Darkness?
You can understand Redcloak a lot better from reading SoD. Heck, Xykon becomes more understandable in it, too.

Fish

2013-06-14, 12:28 PM

My money is on "Nale may one day betray Sabine." Or suspect Sabine is betraying him. Rich has gone to great lengths to show Nale's and Sabine's mutual love. She says "I'm right behind you. All the way." She tells him not to trust the others. And so on. They have a good relationship. That's why I have every suspicion that it will fall apart, with bitter acrimony on both sides.

How?

Rich commented in that thread "Interesting, don't you think?" to a passage showing how single-minded and dedicated Nale is to destroying Elan and Tarquin. He'd do anything to kill them. Sabine's masters are sending her to direct and influence Nale, in some unknown plot about the Gates ... but they've never shown an interest (yet) in harming the Order.

What if the IFCC wants the Order to save the Gates? They want the Order alive. Nale wants them dead.

Boom, there's your conflict. Sabine has orders to save the Order, hence save the world. Nale would do anything to kill Elan. "Interesting, don't you think?" as Rich says. How far would Nale go? All the way. He'd destroy the world to get Elan. Sabine's masters may have other plans.

I don't think Nale is truly not Lawful. He does live by a code: he's single-minded in his destruction of Elan.

Copperdragon

2013-06-14, 02:18 PM

If you are referring to his one-liner about good and evil being "just words" with many possible ways to capitalizations, isn't Tarquin just changing the subject away from alignment?

Yes, he's dodging the question so he does not have to answer it, which means he very much knows what the answer would be. He basically communicated he does not want to tell Elan "Yeah, I'm evil" by dodging. If he was neutral or good (laughable assumption based on what we saw) he could have answered. He'd not give up such a point, so we know he considers himself evil "within that alignment system that he refuses" - which is a correct estimation.

rodneyAnonymous

2013-06-14, 03:34 PM

What exactly has Tarquin done in the strip to qualify as "honorable"?

For one thing, he keeps promises.

SavageWombat

2013-06-14, 07:43 PM

Once again, I point to Roy's heavenly review to suggest that Nale could simultaneously be declared LE, and actually very bad at it in practice. It's not a contradiction in the world Rich has built.

Copperdragon

2013-06-15, 07:03 AM

Once again, I point to Roy's heavenly review to suggest that Nale could simultaneously be declared LE, and actually very bad at it in practice. It's not a contradiction in the world Rich has built.

"You try to be Lawful Evil, but you fail at that at times. We still consider you Lawful as you attempt to be a devilish deceiver" is a possible outcome.
But if Roy already runs into an issue due to his chaotic tendencies, I think Nale has an even bigger one.
I'd peg Nale as NE now (attempt to be Lawful but being an utter failure at that) screams N to me. The difference is that Roy attemps to be Lawful and even if he often uses chaotic means to do that, he's mostly succeeding. Nale is sowing Chaos wherever he goes.

TubaMortim

2013-06-15, 01:40 PM

What I thought after reading the original question (not the alignment discussion) is that the possible development in Nale might be neither of the suggested alternatives, but instead him growing frustrated about being unsuccessful and turning from the "overly complicated, humorous" villain to a more efficient one.

Meaning trading the crazy plans and any elegance for an invisibility potion and a sword through the neck like any other murderer.

Copperdragon

2013-06-15, 02:15 PM

... but instead him growing frustrated about being unsuccessful and turning from the "overly complicated, humorous" villain to a more efficient one.

Maybe. But this has little to do with "Alignment", no?

Drakevarg

2013-06-15, 02:16 PM

I'd say it's not so much that Nale's incompetence is being focused on so much as the mere fact that he's in the same fifty mile radius as his father makes everything he's ever accomplished look hopelessly quaint by comparison.

To use an odd example, Hercule/Mr. Satan from Dragonball Z. An amazing fighter and probably the most powerful non-ki-using human in the world. But when you make him stand next to people who can blow up planets, he becomes a joke character just from the juxtaposition.

Zordrath

2013-06-15, 04:17 PM

I haven't seen the point of Nale as a character or a villain for a long time. He's a relic from a time when 'Evil opposite who's Evil because Evil' was still enough to carry a story arc, and in fact was a major sign of progress because we finally GOT story arcs. Since then the comic has moved on - even Belkar has more depth now, let alone other villains like Redcloak. Xykon maybe doesn't, but he makes up for that with sheer badassery and entertainment value. Plus, while maybe he's not exactly a deep character, Start of Darkness did a lot to flesh out his background nonetheless.

Nale has none of this going for him, and he never evolves at all. His characterization and petty goals have remained largely unchanged and I just don't get what's supposed to make me want to read about him. To me, it really feels like he kind of lucked into that recurring villain status by being born Elan's brother. By rights, he should be dead several times over by now, always tangling with forces far beyond his power without the smarts to pull it off. Haley's justification for not killing him was contrived even by genre savvy comedy standards.

The Pilgrim

2013-06-15, 06:49 PM

For one thing, he keeps promises.

When it plays to his advantage.

rodneyAnonymous

2013-06-15, 06:51 PM

Uh, no... always.

warrl

2013-06-15, 10:09 PM

"You try to be Lawful Evil, but you fail at that at times. We still consider you Lawful as you attempt to be a devilish deceiver" is a possible outcome.
But if Roy already runs into an issue due to his chaotic tendencies, I think Nale has an even bigger one.
I'd peg Nale as NE now (attempt to be Lawful but being an utter failure at that) screams N to me. The difference is that Roy attemps to be Lawful and even if he often uses chaotic means to do that, he's mostly succeeding. Nale is sowing Chaos wherever he goes.

Roy, per the deva, KEPT TRYING. He repented of his chaotic acts and went back to do - as best circumstances permitted - what a strictly-lawful character would have done in the first place.

Has Nale repented of his chaotic acts, ever?

Obscure Blade

2013-06-15, 11:55 PM

Roy, per the deva, KEPT TRYING. He repented of his chaotic acts and went back to do - as best circumstances permitted - what a strictly-lawful character would have done in the first place.

Has Nale repented of his chaotic acts, ever?
And a Lawful Good deva is going to be concerned about being fair. "You tried, so it counts."

A devil? "It's 'not fair'? Wait a sec, let me look that word up."

Emanick

2013-06-16, 12:39 AM

theangelJean

2013-06-16, 06:49 AM

And a Lawful Good deva is going to be concerned about being fair. "You tried, so it counts."

A devil? "It's 'not fair'? Wait a sec, let me look that word up."

Well, devils will at least be consistent. They'll stick to rules mercilessly, without giving anyone an inch of slack, but at least they'll stick to them. I mean, it's not as if they're going to want to go out of their way to send people to the Neutral Evil afterlife (I imagine).

I don't know much about D&D or alignment. But I get the idea that while devils as the embodiment of Lawful Evil may "stick to the rules mercilessly", that does not necessarily mean they are fair, as the rules themselves are probably allowed to be completely unfair. Not arbitrary (that would be Chaotic), just designed in a way that deliberately doesn't allow anyone any advantage.

Kish

2013-06-16, 06:53 AM

Actually, I think there's a fair chance that anyone who makes it to the entrance to the Lawful Evil afterlife gets waved in.

("You wouldn't be here if you weren't technically Lawful Evil...and it's not like we'd want to send you anywhere else anyway.")

Copperdragon

2013-06-16, 07:17 AM

I'd agree. Why should the Devils send someone away? You're either belonging there or are an extra soul.

But if they did accept everyone or do send people away depends heavily on what the evil afterlives in OotS actually are. So far we have no real idea (only a comment they actually do seem to be some sort of hell - which gives credibility to the theory the devils take whoever is knocking on their doors).

SavageWombat

2013-06-16, 01:05 PM

Aldrakan

2013-06-16, 02:27 PM

Which means that Lawful Evil is a pyramid scheme - and they always need new suckers for the bottom tier that didn't know what they were signing up for.

"I started at the bottom, just like you" said the pit fiend.

I'm pretty sure that is the explanation given for why people who know approximately what awaits them after death still go on being evil - they overestimate their importance and think they'll get promoted right away, and still be basically the same person but with fiend powers. There's a quote along the lines of "No one ever looks at a lemure and thinks that will be their eternity."

B. Dandelion

2013-06-16, 03:26 PM

Does it necessarily matter what a devil hypothetically does, if the point of bringing up Roy's judgment is to set up a reasonable standard of lawfulness? If Nale's about as lawful as Roy was judged to be, we should probably consider him LE. If he's less, then probably not, since Roy was a borderline case. Hypothetically he might wind up in a different afterlife than he "really" deserves, but that's kind of a different issue than whether or not he actually is lawful.

By the way, what story impact do you think it would have if Nale were revealed to be Neutral or Chaotic Evil? An ethical alignment change by itself doesn't seem particularly twist-worthy, if half the audience has likely forgotten Nale ever said he was lawful in the first place (it was like nine years ago!) and "lawfulness" has never been a big part of his established identity or character. The best I can think of is that if he's changed alignment, it might indicate the degree of commitment he has to Sabine, or the amount of influence she's had on him. If Nale was never LE, perhaps it might come as a shock to him if something came up that proved he wasn't the alignment he truly believed himself to be.

Kish

2013-06-16, 03:29 PM

It would be a moral development challenge for Nale. To be crushed by his failure to live up to the (im)moral code his father taught him...or to embrace being differently evil and finally move out of his father's shadow.

Jay R

2013-06-16, 05:57 PM

Nale was a serious threat in the first encounter. Now Rich is downplaying that threat to make it clear that the OotS has grown, and to make the next threats look greater.

The Pilgrim

2013-06-16, 05:59 PM

Uh, no... always.

Name one time Tarquin has keept a promise against his own better interests.

I mean, like when he promised the Bounty Hunters a compensation for their efforts in the capture of Elan, then set them up, sent them to the Arena, and forced them fight each other for his amusement. That speaks "honorable" all over my floor.

Also, remember that Tarquin sent the OOTS to the Windy Canyon on the false idea that he was helping them catch Nale, when in fact he knew Nale was still in the Palace, allied himself with his evil son, and declared he was just using the OOTS to clear the way to the MacGuffin.

That definitely speaks "honorable" all over my floor, yes.

Fish

2013-06-16, 06:27 PM

I mean, like when he promised the Bounty Hunters a compensation for their efforts in the capture of Elan, then set them up...
You mean, when he offered (not promised) to compensate for expenses incurred and they tried to extort him instead. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0724.html) Extortion, I'm sure you'll agree, is against the law.

rodneyAnonymous

2013-06-16, 06:33 PM

This is futile, you (nor anyone else who thinks Tarquin does not follow principles of honor) are not going to change your mind, but:

Name one time Tarquin has kept a promise against his own better interests.

What?! That's asking me to back up something I didn't say. I said he always keeps promises. Perhaps they have all been in his interest because he makes every situation favorable to himself. I have no idea if he would have benefited more from breaking his word in any particular instance, no one does, because we haven't seen it happen.

The other examples are... not what happened. But whatever. I don't think "honorable" and "evil" are mutually exclusive, and that fundamental disagreement makes this argument pointless.

Kish

2013-06-16, 06:53 PM

You mean, when he offered (not promised) to compensate for expenses incurred and they tried to extort him instead. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0724.html) Extortion, I'm sure you'll agree, is against the law.
Tried to extort him? It was a Star Wars joke!

rodneyAnonymous

2013-06-16, 07:07 PM

Tried to extort him? It was a Star Wars joke!

And you don't make jokes about bombs in an airport :P Tarquin certainly took it that way. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0735.html)

Kish

2013-06-16, 07:12 PM

And you don't make jokes about bombs in an airport :P Tarquin certainly took it that way. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0735.html)
Oh? Tarquin said that he wanted Elan to enjoy the tragedy of them being forced to battle each other.

One is an excuse, the other is a reason. Tarquin didn't suddenly become really stupid and unable to recognize a Star Wars joke; he chose to do something vicious and petty. It wasn't technically breaking the letter of his word, in the same way he didn't technically break the letter of his word to Amun-Zora, but while exploiting such loopholes is the essence of Lawful Evil it's a very long way away from honorable.

Similarly, it's a safe bet he promised to "love, honor, and cherish" the woman whose feet he froze to force her to marry him, and it's a safe bet she lived and died without him ever treating her in a way a Good person would have recognized as coming within light-years of any of those words.

Obscure Blade

2013-06-16, 08:42 PM

By the way, what story impact do you think it would have if Nale were revealed to be Neutral or Chaotic Evil? It might tie in with his relationship to Chaotic Evil Sabine in some fashion, especially if he dies and ends up in the same plane she lives in. Or not.

Copperdragon

2013-06-17, 12:01 AM

Roy, per the deva, [...]

Yes, as I said: Nale is going to run into bigger issues than Roy did. If there's an investigation.

pearl jam

2013-06-17, 04:15 AM

That speaks "honorable" all over my floor.

I've never heard this expression before. I'm curious, is it a Spanish idiom that you translated into English, perhaps?

ZarDaranth

2013-06-17, 07:19 AM

Given the fact that Tarquin added "Pray I don't alter it any further." to Gannji and Enor's legal screwup, I think he fully understood the Star Wars joke, but as the most dramatic person in the room, he did not want to be upstaged in any way by some lowly bounty hunters. Especially not in front of his long-lost son, who was in dire need of dramatic exposition, and other genre-savvy introductions.

I mean, heck, Tarquin was impressed with Nale subduing his overinflated ego long enough to hide out in the EoB. He definitely likes following the rule of drama.

Carry2

2013-06-17, 07:28 AM

Given the fact that Tarquin added "Pray I don't alter it any further."...
Tarquin didn't frame G & E over the star wars reference. It was G & E demanding compensation for their time and trouble due to a misleading bounty posting (which they got) that caused that.

ZarDaranth

2013-06-17, 07:37 AM

Tarquin didn't frame G & E over the star wars reference. It was G & E demanding compensation for their time and trouble due to a misleading bounty posting (which they got) that caused that.

Tarquin didn't give a flying plop about compensating them. If you look at G&E's trial, the note was about extorting him. Not demanding just payment, but extorting. Tarquin is the biggest drama queen in the room, and he has the willingness to be that petty to anyone that even tries to steal his spotlight.

Tragak

2013-06-17, 08:14 AM

Tarquin didn't give a flying plop about compensating them. If you look at G&E's trial, the note was about extorting him. Not demanding just payment, but extorting. Tarquin is the biggest drama queen in the room, and he has the willingness to be that petty to anyone that even tries to steal his spotlight. Most importantly, he cares about Elan and thought that Elan would want to be as sadistically vengeful as he and Nale would be. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0783.html)

Carry2

2013-06-17, 09:14 AM

Tarquin didn't give a flying plop about compensating them. If you look at G&E's trial, the note was about extorting him. Not demanding just payment, but extorting...
Yeah, except that there wasn't any actual extortion, due to a lack of actual thermal detonators, or even any bluffing to that effect. I don't disagree with the whole drama queen thing, but I reckon G&E would still be in the clink even without the star wars references.

Fish

2013-06-17, 09:40 AM

Carry2

2013-06-17, 09:50 AM

No actual extortion? Try that before a jury.
Tarquin asked him if he really had a thermal detonator. Gannji said 'no', he was just trying to maintain the theme. Actual extortion would involve maintaining 'yes, I have an actual thermal detonator' until you actually got more money.

The Pilgrim

2013-06-17, 09:57 AM

I've never heard this expression before. I'm curious, is it a Spanish idiom that you translated into English, perhaps?

No, I just made it up.

Liliet

2013-06-17, 11:35 AM

I didn`t pay much attention to details while watching Star Wars so I didn`t get the joke then, and I felt that Ganji and Enor really went overboard. Anyway, it`s not like Tarquin threw them in jail for that "lame joke" or anything, he just withdrew his protection from, er, lawful punishment for a tavern brawl. They thought they had a right to beat someone up for asking about their bounty; in fact, it turned out they did not, not anymore. Had they realized their mistake and quietly retreated from the EoB, never crossing Tarquin anymore, I bet they would have gotten off the hook.
Of course, this is not actually "good" choice, and of course it is not "fair". But from "technically logical" Lawful Evil point of view, Tarquin gave them a fair chance and they did not use it. Money extortion is money extortion, even if you have a tomato soup can for a thermal detonator. That way it`s even probably more insulting.

Kish

2013-06-17, 11:37 AM

No actual extortion? Try that before a jury.

"Your honor, this was not armed robbery, because I didn't actually have a real gun. And when I threatened to blow up the building, I didn't have a real bomb. Therefore, I have committed no crime."

Good luck.
You left out the part where "threatening to blow up the building" is an obvious Star Wars joke and the "bomb" is immediately recognized by the person you're "extorting" as a can of tomato soup.

Someone would get laughed out of court, all right, but not the one you're arguing would be in trouble.

Fish

2013-06-17, 11:38 AM

Tarquin asked him if he really had a thermal detonator. Gannji said 'no', he was just trying to maintain the theme. Actual extortion would involve maintaining 'yes, I have an actual thermal detonator' until you actually got more money.
Gannji said "Give me money because I have a thermal detonator." Tarquin didn't fall for it, but that doesn't change what Gannji attempted to do. You don't get "I was only kidding about killing everybody with a bomb" free take-backs in law. There's no provision for "I didn't successfully get any money so you can't charge me with anything." That crime is attempted robbery.

Kish

2013-06-17, 11:41 AM

HPWesterman

2013-06-17, 12:15 PM

tricking Roy into going on what Nale thought was a meaningless fetch quest so the Linear Guild could make a run for it (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0142.html)

Which lead to V's eventual familicide casting. Nale's fetch quest literally led to this dungeon being vastly underpowered by the loss of Girrard's progeny. Blundering over-complicated plans he may have... but he's also shown the occasional bit of intelligence (replacing Elan, and hatching his plan in a town where divinations were against the law).

Either way, while he may not be important for other gates... he's a must have for this gate, simply because he is at least secondarily responsible for the state it's currently in! :smallamused:

Liliet

2013-06-17, 01:20 PM

We apparently have an agreement that, between the statement "I was just trying to keep the theme going" and the paraphrased statement, "I'm doing this because you tried to extort me," one is a transparent excuse and the other is a flatly factual statement.

We apparently have a total disagreement on which is which.

There`s also a possibility that both were factual statements. And the joke was really lame.
There`s also a possibility that both were transparent excues. Enor and Ganji wanted more money, and Tarquin didn`t want to give them even their due.

Of these four (counting two mentioned in the quote) I love the third one most. Enor and Ganji were making a stupid joke. The joke was stupid and ill-timed, so Tarquin got angry.

Math_Mage

2013-06-17, 03:17 PM

Nale was a serious threat in the first encounter. Now Rich is downplaying that threat to make it clear that the OotS has grown, and to make the next threats look greater.

Mmm, I don't think Nale has been downplayed as a threat. LG was at a significant advantage in this round before Malack showed up.

However, I do think the simplistic premise of LG's antagonism has been downplayed as a narrative. Since that's what makes Nale relevant, he will become an increasingly irrelevant pawn, unless and until he has an epiphany and takes the step from 'the evil twin' to villain in his own right. Whether he is capable of making that step remains to be seen.

Excise

2013-06-17, 03:38 PM

My fingers are crossed that Nale is going to pull a fast one and outwit Tarquin in the end. He's the underdog, but he's still got my vote.

Bulldog Psion

2013-06-17, 07:20 PM

My fingers are crossed that Nale is going to pull a fast one and outwit Tarquin in the end. He's the underdog, but he's still got my vote.

Outwit and hopefully kill.

Water_Bear

2013-06-17, 09:40 PM

My fingers are crossed that Nale is going to pull a fast one and outwit Tarquin in the end. He's the underdog, but he's still got my vote.

Outwit and hopefully kill.

+Infinity This ten character limit is really cramping my style

Snails

2013-06-18, 05:30 PM

However, I do think the simplistic premise of LG's antagonism has been downplayed as a narrative. Since that's what makes Nale relevant, he will become an increasingly irrelevant pawn, unless and until he has an epiphany and takes the step from 'the evil twin' to villain in his own right. Whether he is capable of making that step remains to be seen.

Evolve or die.

IMNSHO the Giant is very deliberately upping the stakes by culling "weaker" characters.

Tsukiko did not make the cut. Crystal did not make the cut. Kubota did not make the cut.

Belkar got a reprieve, and seems to be keeping up...barely. How long will he last?

Nale has ten toes over the cliff (and if not for Sabine could be gone any moment now).

pendell

2013-06-18, 05:50 PM

Evolve or die.

IMNSHO the Giant is very deliberately upping the stakes by culling "weaker" characters.

Tsukiko did not make the cut. Crystal did not make the cut. Kubota did not make the cut.

Belkar got a reprieve, and seems to be keeping up...barely. How long will he last?

Nale has ten toes over the cliff (and if not for Sabine could be gone any moment now).

Dangit this forum needs a like button. YES. This. So much this. Nale is being undone by his own weaknesses and his willingness to surrender to them rather than overcome them. That may be why in so many tales "good" overcomes "evil". Good requires resistance to destructive impulses and passions while evil indulges them. And too often those "destructive" impulses turn out to be self-destructive, as in the case of Nale or any Greek tragic character ever.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Burner28

2013-06-19, 09:58 AM

My fingers are crossed that Nale is going to pull a fast one and outwit Tarquin in the end. He's the underdog, but he's still got my vote.

I really doubt that could happen.

Copperdragon

2013-06-19, 03:04 PM

Nale is being undone by his own weaknesses and his willingness to surrender to them rather than overcome them. That may be why in so many tales "good" overcomes "evil". Good requires resistance to destructive impulses and passions while evil indulges them. And too often those "destructive" impulses turn out to be self-destructive, as in the case of Nale or any Greek tr.

That is basically Darth Vader's story in a nutshell. Why he went evil, why he redeemed himself at the end.

If you go beyond that, it explains who is the master and who the slave. It exlains why Miko was not evil, but actually a villain (who did not get redeemed). It also explains why Redcloak is a, in the end, weakling while Xykon soars. We're beyond "good" and "evil", the characters who surrender to what they are and to what hinders them are hindered, while those who struggle on in the attempt to "do better" (the heroes in this story, all of them) or accept what they are (Xykon, Belkar) are among the strong characters.
This is unltimatly why Nale sucks: He surrenders to his weaknesses because he thinks he has none, because he thinks of himself as so awesome that there is no room for improvement.

The weaker characters know they have no place in that struggle and leave (Celia) or are killed.

Of course, this carries little new information, as this is a "managed story". Those who "win because the grow" do that because they are written to do that, they role is predermined. The same is true for those who "lose because they do not grow" - it is not Miko's fault she failed, she failed because she was supposed to.
Observing this is interesting, but the actual insight is not that deep. This works like a good story because it is a good story.

Harry Leipzig

2013-06-19, 03:16 PM

pendell

2013-06-19, 03:56 PM

I'm of the mind that either Nale has been failing a lot recently so that the Giant can let him win and have it be a big surprise, or else that he pulls a Heel-Face Turn and tries to join the Order, with the possibility of a Heel-Face Door Slam with either Tarquin, Malack, or worse, Sabine killing him when he reveals his intention to become Good.

The idea of a Good-Aligned Nale is... intriguing. Especially if he joins as a replacement to the now Evil Durkon. Maybe he will become a little more humble, or act as an example of a more pragmatic Lawful Good, favoring Law over Good, which I would assume would be his alignment, to give a bit of a foil to Roy's Good over Law.

Let's wait and see, I say.

No. That's my gut-level, intuitive read of the character as the Giant has portrayed him. Maybe I'm misreading the comic, but this is simply not happening.

Nale is not on course for any kind of redemption or change in his alignment away from evil. If anything, he's proceeding further down the path to destruction.

Remember this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0464.html). Soon lays out the steps for redemption in the giant's universe.

A) The recognition that one might be wrong.
B) The acceptance that one has done wrong.
C) Seek forgiveness for the wrong.
D) If possible, even to make restitution to the extent that's plausible.

If Nale was walking this path, I would expect to see some foreshadowing of it, like the teasing flirtation with slightly-less-than-total-evil Belkar has thanks to Mr. Scruffy and Lord Shojo.

Strange that his one encounter with Lord Shojo seems to have done more to influence his outlook than all the time he's spent with Roy. Maybe it's because they're both chaotic?

But in any case, there are teasers and suggestions that Redcloak, the MITD, and Belkar might either be on this path or at least willing to consider it at some later point. Redcloak's repentence from ordering hobgoblins to senseless death. Belkar's decision to pretend to be good. The MITDs' association with O-chul.

There is none of that from Nale. No Chekhov's gun. Not the slightest hint that Nale has any time or place for anything other than the self-exaltation of Nale. Not the slightest hint of compasson for any being save Sabine, not the slightest suggestion of humility.

If Nale makes such a change it would be totally out of the blue, and the Giant doesn't do that. If the Giant wants something like that to happen, he's going to foreshadow it. He doesn't pull major plot developments out of nowhere. The fact that we're so far along in the story across all the books without any such foreshadowing or any clue that such would be "in character" for Nale makes the odds all but certain that it won't. Not in the time we have left.

ETA: Kudos to Copperdragon for his last post. *He* may consider his insight not that deep, but I think it a worthy contribution to the thread.

E Again to add: And this is why I hope Nale and the rest of the LG are permanently off-stage by the end of the book. Because at the end of the day Nale's just not that interesting. He's had his schtick, he's not a serious threat. I believe his story purpose is to serve as a foil and a counterpoint to Elan, and as Elan matures Nale becomes less a dark mirror image and more a two-dimensional caricature of what Elan once was. Nale should leave not because Elan *defeats* him, but because Elan has *outgrown* him.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Harry Leipzig

2013-06-19, 04:25 PM

E Again to add: And this is why I hope Nale and the rest of the LG are permanently off-stage by the end of the book. Because at the end of the day Nale's just not that interesting. He's had his schtick, he's not a serious threat. I believe his story purpose is to serve as a foil and a counterpoint to Elan, and as Elan matures Nale becomes less a dark mirror image and more a two-dimensional caricature of what Elan once was. Nale should leave not because Elan *defeats* him, but because Elan has *outgrown* him.
Good point. Nale has at no point realized his failures, he hasn't had a "what have I become" moment. It's possible that he will have that moment in the future, but it probably would have been introduced before now. Maybe the Giant is visiting this pain and failure on Nale to cruelly evoke early, moronic Elan. Yes, their character arcs seem nicely reciprocal: as Elan has become complex, Nale has become more simplistic. And yet, they are still the opposites that Nale intended them to be. Would be poetic if Nale or Elan made this observation when Elan finally defeats Nale. Assuming that happens.

mhsmith

2013-06-19, 06:27 PM

There's really no reason to think that Nale is, or ever will be, on any kind of redemptive arc. There MAY be reason to think that he will continue to luck/weasel his way out of danger, especially since it's fairly obvious that the IFCC (presumably the most powerful characters to have taken any kind of direct interest/action in this conflict) finds his continued presence to be useful.

I do think that Nale and Malack are due for a conflict where only one of them walks away, presuming nothing kills one or the other first. Malack seems to be much more powerful, but Nale does have a way of continuing to survive long past what seems like his due date. Kind of like a cockroach.

Math_Mage

2013-06-19, 06:36 PM

Of course, this carries little new information, as this is a "managed story". Those who "win because the grow" do that because they are written to do that, they role is predermined. The same is true for those who "lose because they do not grow" - it is not Miko's fault she failed, she failed because she was supposed to.
Observing this is interesting, but the actual insight is not that deep. This works like a good story because it is a good story.
I think what you said earlier in this post is useful insight, managed story or no. However, I disagree that it was not Miko's fault she failed. That's conflating out-of-narrative reasoning with in-narrative reasoning.

Harry Leipzig

2013-06-19, 06:48 PM

I think what you said earlier in this post is useful insight, managed story or no. However, I disagree that it was not Miko's fault she failed. That's conflating out-of-narrative reasoning with in-narrative reasoning.
Well, it depends on if you have a determinist or free will view of stories. Do things happen to characters because the author decides they should happen, or because they are the natural progression of the characters' personality and motive consistent decisions converging together? Did Miko fail because the Giant wanted her fail, or because he realized that her character traits would lead to act in a manner that would cause her to fail?

One Step Two

2013-06-19, 07:27 PM

Well, it depends on if you have a determinist or free will view of stories. Do things happen to characters because the author decides they should happen, or because they are the natural progression of the characters' personality and motive consistent decisions converging together? Did Miko fail because the Giant wanted her fail, or because he realized that her character traits would lead to act in a manner that would cause her to fail?

I believe it's a little of both in the case of Miko. I don't have the books on hand at the moment, but if I recall correctly, in the commentary from No Cure for the Paladin Blues, Rich states that he intended Miko to be an antagonist, but in writing for her and the development of her character she turned out much harsher than intended. She fit the negative connotations of a paladin from the onset, and that helped define her ultimate goal.

Miko actually proves an interesting mirror to Nale. Both are completely (over)confident in their own self-worth. To each of them nothing they do is wrong, and all their failings lay at the feet of others. Her ending was a tragedy for the reasons stated above, she refused to grow.

Nale has had some small measure of character development, the question remains is, will it be entirely enough?

Harry Leipzig

2013-06-19, 07:38 PM

I believe it's a little of both in the case of Miko. I don't have the books on hand at the moment, but if I recall correctly, in the commentary from No Cure for the Paladin Blues, Rich states that he intended Miko to be an antagonist, but in writing for her and the development of her character she turned out much harsher than intended. She fit the negative connotations of a paladin from the onset, and that helped define her ultimate goal.
Hm. So she was going to be an antagonist anyways (determinist), but her specific manner of failure was due to how her character developed (character free will).

Nice paladins are hard to find. The only example I can think of is in another work. Is it okay to discuss other works in an OOTS forum?

One Step Two

2013-06-19, 07:50 PM

Hm. So she was going to be an antagonist anyways (determinist), but her specific manner of failure was due to how her character developed (character free will).

Nice paladins are hard to find. The only example I can think of is in another work. Is it okay to discuss other works in an OOTS forum?

Writing is like that sometimes. I'll start planning a D&D campaign, and before I know it an NPC I intended to dispense information for a short while can become a pivotal character, because that character does more than be my mouthpeice.

Specifically, I made a slightly mad wizard to act as a clue giver in the form of riddles, and I hashed out that his madness was caused by cavorting with fey a little too much. His presence extended the more I included the fey into the story, becoming less a clue giver, than an ambassador/liason between the fey and mortals.

And by all means, I believe we can reference other works, so long as we remain on topic.

The small amount of character development from Nale, that I mentioned above comes in tiny packages. One of the more immediate ones was that he left the liability that is Thog in prison. He would had have to have known that Thog's presence would have alerted Tarquin to Nale in some way, but he made no attempts to bust him out of prison. Of course, an escape would have put Thog on the radar, giving more weight to Nale's survival. But the "old" Nale would have broken Thog out of prison just to spite his dad (In character information related to how the prisoners are tracked not withstanding of course.)

The other was, that despite bringing back Z, he made no effort to get a divine caster to fill in the role as Mirror to Durkon. His aquisition of a wand (to me) is him admitting on some level that he could stand to be a better caster, and making a concious effort to improve.

But as I said before, will it be enough?

This isn't to say he must "evolve or die" he has escaped on sheer persistance before. I'm mostly wondering if it will be enough for him to remain relevant to the story.

That said, all this of course means little before the fact he is a pawn of the IFCC, while his direct control of Sabine has been removed, I imagine they've got other means to watch over him.

Harry Leipzig

2013-06-19, 07:56 PM

And by all means, I believe we can reference other works, so long as we remain on topic.
In that case, Michael Carpenter from the Dresden Files is just about the only paladin-type character I can think of who is a genuinely nice guy. A little stodgy and has some sensitive ears, but a nice guy.

Nale does seem to be learning from his previous actions. But is it too little, too late, as you wonder? That remains to be seen.

One Step Two

2013-06-19, 08:17 PM

In that case, Michael Carpenter from the Dresden Files is just about the only paladin-type character I can think of who is a genuinely nice guy. A little stodgy and has some sensitive ears, but a nice guy.

Nale does seem to be learning from his previous actions. But is it too little, too late, as you wonder? That remains to be seen.

To my own shame, I am not as familiar as I would like to be regarding the Dresen Files, so I can only take your word for it in regards to Michael Carpenter.

But if we want to discuss Nice Guy paladins. We have some of our own in OOtS.

Lien, O-chul, Hinjo and Tanth. There are others, but these are ones we've seen the most. Just a quick breakdown in no particular order.

Tanth: Freeing slaves in a Lawful Evil city. Doing the right thing for the Right reasons. His values of honour are compromised due to the hit-and-run style of the Resistance he leads, but he adapted. He knew that going in holy sword shining, and shouting out his virtues would lead to more deaths. He embodied the lesson that Discression is the better part of Valor. We don't know much about him as a person (beside being a bit of a stick in the mud) but he rose to the role that needed him, and knew that he had to give up some of his preconceptions. The Domination at the hand of Tsukiko would have been a big lesson, especially on when it's time to run.

Lien: Lien is our go-to girl when it comes to "Good, not Dumb". She's clever, and dutiful, and from anecdotal evidence, Honest to a fault. She does her duty admirably, even when she doesn't like it. She grumbles, but does the right thing. She hasn't had development, because she's a well-rounded character from the onset. Even when struck by friendly fire, she's forgiving.

O-chul: Do I really need to? There has been several threads exalting this man to the seven-heavens and back. He never gives up, and while he still has his prejudice agaist Red-cloak, he never forced it on his associate of the MitD, and did his best to understand his co-prisoner.

Hinjo: Hinjo is actually our most developed character. He's introduced to us as a funny and charming paladin, even making light with the OOtS as they are marched to their sentence. He learned early on that he needs to balance his righteous wrath with the care and duty of leadership, even when that means being less than Valorous.

Each of them know there's bigger priorities beyond even their immiediate needs or self-aggrandisement, I guess that's the point I am trying to make.

Nale, was pinned by his father in the aftermath of their ambush on the OOtS in the palace, about the issues that come from such an ego. It's a vain hope that he's learning from these sharp lessons. (puns intentional)

It's in writing all this I realise that Nale's development may very well be too little, and whether it's late hardly matters. He truly doesn't understand what's at stake, or atleast, his own position in all of it. He was a willing pawn in the dungeon of Dorukan when he was out to take the amulet from under Xykons nasal cavity to cement his own power. But in this specific case, of trying to track down the Draketooth family, one can only wonder what he hopes to gain. He might earn some of Xkyons Favour, and ask to control the western continent. That seems like a reasonable sort of goal, and not a terribly difficult request. In the face of Xykon Ruling the world, a dusty little peice of land is no big deal for a minion to run.
The problem is, Nale's ego would likely think he could ascend to take that power for himself somehow. And going in for a throw-down against Xkyon will end poorly for him and the entire LG no matter what they can bring.

TLDR; even taking into account his own shortcomings as a combatant and leader, his ego has hardly changed, and his constant tripping over it, is the source of his woes.

B. Dandelion

2013-06-19, 08:28 PM

I believe it's a little of both in the case of Miko. I don't have the books on hand at the moment, but if I recall correctly, in the commentary from No Cure for the Paladin Blues, Rich states that he intended Miko to be an antagonist, but in writing for her and the development of her character she turned out much harsher than intended. She fit the negative connotations of a paladin from the onset, and that helped define her ultimate goal.

It is a weird coincidence that I went hunting for one of the Giant's quotes to add to thePhantasm's thread, but it's the one directly related to this.

Everything from the point where Miko drags the Order to Azure City in chains in #251 is more-or-less exactly what was always going to happen, with only some tone changed. Miko, and only Miko, was intended to kill Shojo, fall from grace, and ultimately destroy the Azurite gate. No one else was ever considered for this role, and this role was assigned to her from before her first appearance in #200. It was the entire narrative purpose of her character.

Harry Leipzig

2013-06-19, 08:31 PM

To my own shame, I am not as familiar as I would like to be regarding the Dresen Files, so I can only take your word for it in regards to Michael Carpenter.
:smalleek:Crud, how could I forget O-Chul?! May my soul be condemned to the deepest depths of the Abyss! :smallfrown: :smallwink: :smalltongue:

I recommend the Dresden Files. If a snarky pop-cultured, reference dropping PI wizard resurrecting a T. rex and riding it to take out an army of zombies in Chicago sounds fun to you, give it a go. The first couple of books aren't amazing, but it picks up after that.

One Step Two

2013-06-19, 08:32 PM

It is a weird coincidence that I went hunting for one of the Giant's quotes to add to thePhantasm's thread, but it's the one directly related to this.

Ah it seems I stand corrected. Thanks for finding that little gem. When I have time later, I'll have to go re-read my copy of No Cure for the Paladin Blues to find what I misquoted. Now that I think on it, it may have been Miko's original incarnation when the strip was still a dungeon crawl gag-a-day. Again, not terribly sure.

Math_Mage

2013-06-19, 08:36 PM

Harry Leipzig

2013-06-19, 09:01 PM

Both. This is not a dichotomy, and phrasing it as one falls once again to the conflation of in-narrative and out-of-narrative reasoning. We as readers know the story is determined. However, that does not mean the characters in those stories do not have free will.

This is also a different question from "Is it Miko's fault?"
Good point. So yes, while Miko made her decision of her own free will in universe, the Giant did it out of universe. Touche. I understand now.

We have an accord!:smallbiggrin:

Copperdragon

2013-06-20, 04:22 AM

However, I disagree that it was not Miko's fault she failed. That's conflating out-of-narrative reasoning with in-narrative reasoning.

Yes, this is the big issue with stories. You cannot really separate these two. This is basically the difference between "real" characters (as you meet them on the street, office, politics, etc or in the internet) and characters in a story.
And all interpretation and speculation must acknowledge that there are border conditions that are purely outside the in-narrative-story.

Miko was a well-written character, but she had a role to play. Whatever room has been there for a "different" development was impossible due to the external requirement she does not develop but be self-righteous when she was needed to be.
Do not get me wrong, I do like interpretation and analysis. But especially when it comes to finding meta-explanations why this character is successful and staying in the story and why that character is weeded out as the tension increases, we must know there's circular reasoning at play and that there are self-fullfilling prophecies that are rooted in the authors intention and requirements.
In this case, there is a certain story to tell that can take a certain room, then specific sections have to be concluded.

Yes, everything we observed about Nale and Miko is true, but their characters are heavily influenced by artificial limitations. I am not argueing against those, they are necessary for the story to develop in an interesting way, but non the less, we must be aware that everything we conclude is as it is because it has been preset (this is the very same reason I am RL against the idea of "fate", btw).
I know the issue is fuzzy and should be forgotten as soon as this part of the discussion is over as it somewhat makes all our brilliant insights into characters moot. But I want to mention it.

"Nale does not grow and thus he fails before the end" is working that way just because Rich needs "Nale to fail before the end because he did not grow".

Now, let's go on finding out why Nale is going to fail before the end and where he excatly did not show growth. :smalltongue:

pendell

2013-06-20, 07:27 AM

CoffeeIncluded

2013-06-20, 07:34 AM

'Nother observation which i submit to see whether other people agree with me or I'm full of it ..

Nale and Elan are both children, literally and metaphorically. But whereas Elan personifies all that is good about childhood (sense of play, fun , hatred of injustice, foolishness occasionally coupled with rare insight) , Nale personifies everything about childhood we want to leave behind (self-centeredness, refusal to recognize flaws, disproportionate response to personal insult).

Both are children, both in personality and literally, in that they are both Tarquin's spawn. But where Elan typifies everything about childhood I, as an adult, have lost and want to regain, Nale typifies everything about childhood I, personally, don't miss about childhood and never want to see again.

That's my reaction, anyway.

Heck, Nale and Elan replay the Cain and Abel story to some degree. Cain murdered his brother, and Nale certainly tried hard to do that very thing.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Hm. I think you're reading too much into it, but that is a very good point. And it touches on another matter: Tarquin completely ****ed up his offspring, both directly with Nale and indirectly to a much lesser extent with Elan. Elan grew up mostly okay because he was separated from his father's poisonous influence, but Nale got tutoring lessons from dear old Daddy, and I bet the pressure and his own personality just ate away at him. But Tarquin definitely played a hand, and he's probably part of the reason they're so immature, in different ways.

Now I'm curious as to what would have happened if Elan's mom got Nale and Tarquin got Elan.

Tragak

2013-06-20, 08:21 AM

Hm. I think you're reading too much into it, but that is a very good point. And it touches on another matter: Tarquin completely ****ed up his offspring, both directly with Nale and indirectly to a much lesser extent with Elan. Elan grew up mostly okay because he was separated from his father's poisonous influence, but Nale got tutoring lessons from dear old Daddy, and I bet the pressure and his own personality just ate away at him. But Tarquin definitely played a hand, and he's probably part of the reason they're so immature, in different ways.

Now I'm curious as to what would have happened if Elan's mom got Nale and Tarquin got Elan. Well, if Elan's drama and Nale's complexity addiction were from the parent that didn't raise them, then it would be in their nature regardless of which parent nurtured them.

Nale raised by their mother would've been a Chaotic Good mastermind that can come up with brilliant plans as long as they're his plans about what works, not someone else's plans about bossing him around. The Order of the Stick would've been formed when Nale, after finding out that Roy and Durkon were on a mission to slay a lich, set up an absurd number of gambits to put V (respecting his/her intelligence and verbosity), Haley (respecting her outlook on authority), and Belkar (hoping he gets killed, preferably taking the lich's minions with him, since clearly prison isn't keeping anybody around him safe) into a position to be hired.

Elan raised by their father would've been a Lawful Evil drama queen that goes through all of the super-villain cliches without Tarquin's more intelligent evaluation about which ones actually work (exactly the opposite of Scott Evil). The Linear Guild would've been formed when Elan felt the need to "play" The Usurping Prince and Sabine decided that he could be controlled better than Tarquin could. He would still love his own villain speeches the way the Nale of our comic does.

Snails

2013-06-20, 11:53 AM

pendell

2013-06-20, 11:59 AM

Well, if Elan's drama and Nale's complexity addiction were from the parent that didn't raise them, then it would be in their nature regardless of which parent nurtured them.

Nale raised by their mother would've been a Chaotic Good mastermind that can come up with brilliant plans as long as they're his plans about what works, not someone else's plans about bossing him around. The Order of the Stick would've been formed when Nale, after finding out that Roy and Durkon were on a mission to slay a lich, set up an absurd number of gambits to put V (respecting his/her intelligence and verbosity), Haley (respecting her outlook on authority), and Belkar (hoping he gets killed, preferably taking the lich's minions with him, since clearly prison isn't keeping anybody around him safe) into a position to be hired.

Elan raised by their father would've been a Lawful Evil drama queen that goes through all of the super-villain cliches without Tarquin's more intelligent evaluation about which ones actually work (exactly the opposite of Scott Evil). The Linear Guild would've been formed when Elan felt the need to "play" The Usurping Prince and Sabine decided that he could be controlled better than Tarquin could. He would still love his own villain speeches the way the Nale of our comic does.

I don't think so. Remember the in-comic reason for Elan having minimal Int is that Nale was smacking him on his soft baby skull when they were both infants.

It may be that Nale was always evil, even as an infant. Growing up in a lawful evil environment with his father certainly didn't help, but it may be that he would have come out evil even if he'd been taken by his mother.

Which raises a perplexing question -- an infant has no reason and is not responsible for his actions. Was Nale's action normal infant goof off, which only later manifested into full-bloom evil under his father's tutelage? Or would Nale have been evil regardless, and that was an early symptom? And how much choice would he have had in it?

I don't suppose we'll ever know.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Copperdragon

2013-06-20, 12:12 PM

Nale and Elan are both children, literally and metaphorically.

I'd more compare them to teenagers. Elan deals with the crisis "growing up" causes by putting a large emphasis on childish abilites and being good natured. He simply does not deal with the issues at hand and builds a character around and with his childishness.

Nale on the other hand is a typical insecure teenager of like 16 who has not yet found his identity. If you want science, check Erikson on his "Stages of Psycologial Development".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erikson%27s_stages_of_psychosocial_development
Teenagers of the phase 13 to 19 who are still struggling with the finding of their own identity can exhibit a trait that is best described as "Better being Evil than being Nobody". I am fairly certain you either remember this somewhat from yourself or know people who did that. I mean, every highschool year has someone who wants to take over the world and every highschool year also has some girls (no sexism here, boys do it as well, but differently) who start to enact power via very nasty, backstabbing mobbing.
Nale is just such a teenager. While Tarquin is Evil for Power and the life it that power grants but does not care if everyone knows who he is, Nale is in it to be "Somebody!" (and somebody you need to bow to).

What we're seeing now in the comic is that Nale is stuck in his phase and mindset, while Elan is growing up and finds his identity and role as grown up. He basically jumps over the "insecurity" phase, but develops from a child to a childish teenager to a grown up adult. I bet you also know people who did that (who have been playful and good natured during their teens, you school ended with you all being 18 or so, but they still somewhat reminded you how they were in elementary school and then you met them three or five years later and realised "Gosh, they are actual persons!").

Maybe Nale once outgrows his current state and finds an identity beyond attempting to double as his father (yes, yes, this is a different branch of psycology :smallwink:) and beyond being just "Evil So People Bow To Me And Think I Am Cool!" but I fear the comic is not giving him time for that.
I guess Nale as (evil) adult might be more like the leader of a marauding band instead of the leader of a nation/empire, who fall into a community with a devious plan, murder the existing powers that keep the law, cherry-pick the most worthwhile targets, sit a week or four in the best place the city can offer, blackmail the coffers dry (with the promise to leave in a tenday or two), terrorize everyone who might stand up to them, and then move on before real heroes can arrive. He is a bit sarcastic, probably has a lot of style, but very secure about what he does and either is NE (chaotic lifestyle + a lot of devious planning) or fully CE (lifestyle, but with a lot of planning where it matters, similar to what Xykon is in regard to Alignment).
If buffered with magic (teleportation, non-detection etc) I bet you can play that ploy for quite a while without it getting too boring.

An old and rich Nale might be content with getting himself a barony or county and live out his life (I see him has classic adventurer, yet an evil one - and every adventurer who does not die has to retire one day).
But that's just a thought-game.

tl;dr: Read the link I posted, you'll learn something for life that's actually worth learning in contrast to discussing fictional characters (and who are B-listers at that anyway). :smalltongue:

Liliet

2013-06-21, 04:38 PM

The only way to Nale`s redemption that I see is in his relationship with Sabine. It seems to be the only thing in the world that he values regardless of his own ego. Sabine is the only one who can show him his flaws and make him work on them. Of course she doesn`t want to do that now, but... here`s how I see this potential sequence of events:
1) Nale is due to be killed, here and now.
2) Sabine recieves a direct order not to interfere from the IFCC since Nale`s death at that point is somehow integral to their plan.
3) Sabine disobeys and saves Nale anyway.
4) Now they are on the run, and to save her hide from the higher-ups` wrath Sabine needs a better ally than she has as of right now.
5) However, she does not abandon Nale, since the whole thing was about him. So the only viable choice is to bring him to a higher level.
6) Sabine starts slowly and stealthily educating Nale. Like, presenting him with puzzles, asking him questions, not forgetting to praise him after every success, and so on. If she goes about it in a right way, and she`s a temptress so she should be quite good manipulator, after some time she has Nale who`s smart enough to realise that:
- pursuing his twin brother only makes him look like the more important of the two;
- he really needs a smarter plan to gain control over the Snarl, and for that plan he needs information he doesn`t have at the moment;
- no matter how it goes, right now his top priority should be preventing the End Of The World As We Know It and saving his and Sabine`s asses from the IFCC who are probably not quite happy with what has happened.

Of course, this has a potential to become a full-blown separate plotline if not a separate comic...

Burner28

2013-06-21, 05:14 PM

Dark Matter

2013-06-21, 08:21 PM

I insist Nale is smarter than most think. As pointed above, he's an excellent planner, but terrible at dealing with spontaneous setbacks. Now, Nale had a plan that worked: Everything in Cliffport worked exactly as he wanted. He even explains it to Elan before Thog knocks him out :smalltongue:

Then Elan escaped and defeated him at that Inn, but that wasn't Nale mistake and that follow up was formed out from Elan's virtues, not Nale's defects. Heck, Nale learnt everything about the Gates thanks to that plan, however accidental that was.The flaw was the plan.

The goal was to kill the OOTS.

The plan... left Elan alive and Thog in jail. Latter mistakes with Belkar (i.e. mind controlling him then sending him out at random) involved V.

A better plan would have been "Switch places, kill Elan, have Thog escape." Sabine might have been able to keep control over Leeky if Thog had been around, but let's assume not.

Play that forward and Hailey dies, especially if Belkar is given more oversight.

Then we have Nale+Belkar+Thog+Sabine against individual and unprepared members of the order. Even if that last doesn't work, he still would have killed his brother and his brother's girlfriend.

Harry Leipzig

2013-06-21, 09:38 PM

Why do you think this could be possible? There is no suggestion that Nale even cares about redemption.
It is a long shot, I admit. It is an outside chance. Like, an outside the universe chance.:smallbiggrin:

Okay then, if Nale doesn't experience character development, would his death serve as a catalyst for some character development in Sabine? Because she has shown some growth since she showed up. Her declaration of love for Nale was unexpected from an infernal being of lust. Maybe, if Malack kills Nale, she will join the Order to get revenge, possibly to replace Belkar if he dies (which I think has a good chance of happening).

Consider: the Linear Guild gained an extra member through Durkon's conversion. It breaks down in that the Linear Guild would no longer have a foil for Elan, but could Tarquin serve as both Roy's foil (the intelligent, lawful fighter) and Elan's foil (a bit of a goofball, genre savvy, with a flair for the dramatic)?

FlawedParadigm

2013-06-21, 10:22 PM

Jay R

2013-06-21, 11:19 PM

Nale only matters as Elan's arch-nemesis. And frankly, he already has one of those, and Tarquin's a lot hotter than Nale is. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0616.html)

mhsmith

2013-06-22, 02:17 AM

Well we now have one big reason rich has been hammering this point: so Nale getting fooled by the "final defense" doesn't seem cheap, but rather a natural outcome of his shortcomings.

Of course, if the gate goes boom, so does Nale's leverage to stay alive and breathing.

Liliet

2013-06-22, 06:18 AM

pendell

2013-06-22, 07:51 AM

I'm surprised this hasn't come up yet.

Nale? Nale is Liquid Snake, right down to the arrogance, rampant and largely poorly-reasoned hatred for his twin brother, and the daddy issues. Wouldn't be surprised if he had the accent, too. Even has the opposite name - Nale/Elan, Solid/Liquid. I'm sure it's not intentional on Rich's part, but almost exactly the same character.

This also means he ultimately is going to be incompetent, too.

If Elan is Solid Snake, does that make Tarquin Big Boss? Does that mean Elan's mom will come riding in on a motorcycle?

*Thinks about it* If Tarquin was missing an eye, maybe it would fit.

Actually, the reason the two stories are similar is probably because both storytellers are drawing on the same common well of stories to come up with ideas. Sort of like tvtropes, it's just that rather than a web site it's a literary education.

Respectfully,

Brian P.