Shadow Conjuration .... Servant & Wall Interaction.

[Miss Disaster]

Hi Everybody,

Even with some extensive Google-Fu and GitP-Search-Fu, I could not locate the answers to these set of questions. And as you know, the Shadow Conjuration/Evocation line of spells is always good fodder for hearty rules debate. That all said, I could use some good advice on how Shadow Conjuration works on manifesting the following spells:

1. Unseen Servant, Servant Horde (SpC) & Unseen Crafter (RoE)

When Shadow versions of these related spells are created, are there any complications with how the "servants" interact-with or manipulate objects ("fetch things, open unstuck doors, and hold chairs, as well as clean and mend")? It's this line of the Shadow Conjuration spell that concerns me the most: Objects automatically succeed on their Will saves against this spell.


2. Wall of Incarnum (MoI)

Yes, I know you can't pump Incarnum into a Shadow-version of this Wall spell. But I am interested in how spells interact with a Shadow-mimicked Wall of Incarnum because of this line here in the spell description: "... and spells cannot pass through it". The Wall is SR: No. But when mimicked via Shadow Conjuration, it has SR: Yes.

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Thanks for all your help in advance!

[Erik Vale]

Objects automatically succeed, so they are affected as if any normal creature, they are affected 20/40/other I cant remember% of normal. Ecxact effects may vary, such as only being able to carry so many objects of a pile, or taking longer to craft something [say, only crafting X% of the normal in the time period, instead of 100%].

[Phelix-Mu]

I am no RAW maven, to be sure, but I find that shadow spells have this problem in many respects. Sure, the object succeeds on the will saves to tell that the shadow unseen servant isn't real, but it still seems that the shadow servant can do the normal things the servant can do regardless, as the effects of the spell mimicked don't hinge on saving throws (object can save versus the attempt to move it, which is merely an illusory attempt? huh?). I understand that a shadow evoked fireball won't damage that building, but it's largely the non-damaging effects that are more confusing. Shadow conjured critters via mimicked summon monster aren't totally real, but they are solid, right? So they should be able to create soft cover for my caster just by standing there.

Oh, the tangled web.:smallconfused:

In short, I find the logic behind quasi-real effects to be somewhat wanting. It's real, but only mostly. I dunno, it's just not something that we can draw on real-life analogies for, I guess.

The issues I usually have a higher level stuff. Simulacra and such. It's a real creature that is based on an illusion spell. The illusion can be seen through, so now the creature making the saving throw to disbelieve can tell it's not the real person. But all of this fake copy's abilities are 100% real, and the creature is a real creature (just not the creature copied).

And the shadow seed for epic seems even less intuitive. Creatures can attempt a save to determine that created things aren't real, but it's not clear that knowing that the created things aren't real gives any benefit to the creature that succeeds on the save.

I really should know more about illusions, I guess. So glad my players don't specialize in stuff like this.:smallsmile:

[Miss Disaster]

Any other takes on these 2 questions?

1. ShadowConj > Wall of Incarnum
2. ShadowConj > Unseen Servant


As I've noted with many other Shadow Conjuration threads on the various forums, more insight gets gained with more adjudication opinions. Especially for such a complicated set of mechanics for the parent spell.

[Kelb_Panthera]

The only difference between an unseen servant that's been shadow conjured and a normal unseen servant is that the shadow version only has 1hp. It otherwise functions exactly as normal. Kind of a waste of a fourth level slot though.

A shadow conjured wall of incarnum only has a 20% chance of doing the essentia/wis damage it's supposed to deal to a creature passing through it and if that creature has spell resistance he gets to check for that before making the will save to pass through the wall and, if succesful, no longer needs to make that will save and takes no damage for passing through.

These seem to be the obvious results, to me at least.

[Miss Disaster]

Kelb, if you check the Original Post, the versatility of using SC for Servant Horde and Unseen Crafter certainly does have a more optimized application.

Also, I was asking about the WoI spell in regards to its line - "... and spells cannot pass through it". Since the SC spell has SR=Yes and the WoI has SR=No.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Kelb, if you check the Original Post, the versatility of using SC for Servant Horde and Unseen Crafter certainly does have a more optimized application. Doesn't matter. The unseen servant or anything like it from higher order spell isn't any less capable than it is from the normal spell. It's just more fragile.


Also, I was asking about the WoI spell in regards to its line - "... and spells cannot pass through it". Since the SC spell has SR=Yes and the WoI has SR=No.

The fact that spells can't pass through it has nothing at all to do with it being a SR:no spell. It's a specific effect of the spell. Spells, being neither objects nor creatures don't get a save against the shadow conjured version of the spell. It still blocks them just like the real thing.

The caster's spell resistance prevents the wall from having an effect on him, if successful, but that doesn't stop it from affecting any spell he tries to cast through it. If he's not trying to pass through the wall, the wall's not affecting him and his spell resistance doesn't come into the equation at all.

[Phelix-Mu]

It is an interesting thing. Shadow spells, even without crazy PrC shenanigans, have great utility, and it only increased with every new book with spells that they published. Combine the shadow-line with custom researched spells and some of the nifty SpC spells that deal with the shadow plane, and it's a nice little set of abilities, very thematic and interesting. I lean towards gloamings when it comes to shadow magic, but the more pedestrian gnomes are also quite cool.

[Raven777]

Shades -> Create Demiplane

What happens if someone disbelieves a Shadow Demiplane while in it? How does a plane that's 80% real affect someone? Should they run a sanity check against the glimpse they get of what lurks between the cracks of reality?

[Flickerdart]

Shades -> Create Demiplane

What happens if someone disbelieves a Shadow Demiplane while in it? How does a plane that's 80% real affect someone? Should they run a sanity check against the glimpse they get of what lurks between the cracks of reality?
Do you mean Genesis? Genesis is level 9, Shades can't replicate it.

[TuggyNE]

Do you mean Genesis? Genesis is level 9, Shades can't replicate it.

No, pretty sure Raven is referring to the PF spell (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/create-demiplane), which is Sor/Wiz 8.

[Flickerdart]

No, pretty sure Raven is referring to the PF spell (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/create-demiplane), which is Sor/Wiz 8.
Pathfinder, wat r u doin. Pathfinder, stahp.

[Raven777]

Pathfinder, wat r u doin. Pathfinder, stahp.

Why? There's nothing quite as cool as fighting a losing battle against the BBEG and then deciding to just get the hell out of dodge by casting Shades as a standard action to just zap out to your private shadow sunshine and shadow bunnies sanctum.

That's what's so great about the whole Shadow Conjuration / Shadow Evocation line. All standard actions, no material components. Just plug and play.

Heck, if your DM is the lenient kind who goes by the literal reading of the text (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/shades) and allows Shades to mimic ALL Conjuration and not just (Summoning) and (Creation), Shades suddenly gives you access to the entire library of (Calling) and (Teleportation) stuff. And if he reads it as not limited to Sorc / Wizard Conjuration... did somebody say arcane Restoration or Resurrection without any material costs?

Then again, once you, your party and your enemies are throwing 9th level spells around anyway, it's not like these shenanigans make that big a difference. They're wicked cool for versatility on a Sorcerer, though.

For icing on the cake, do it as a spellcasting Shade (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/shadow-projection). This spell could be renamed Astral-Projection-As-A-4th-Level-Spell-But-Without-Any-Penalty-For-Getting-Killed.

[Alleran]

Do you mean Genesis? Genesis is level 9, Shades can't replicate it.
Could you duplicate a Sanctum Spell Genesis with Shades? It mimics 8th level and lower conjuration spells, and the effective level of a Sanctum Spell Genesis cast outside the sanctum is -1, bringing Genesis down from 9th to 8th.

[Flickerdart]

Why? There's nothing quite as cool as fighting a losing battle against the BBEG and then deciding to just get the hell out of dodge by casting Shades as a standard action to just zap out to your private shadow sunshine and shadow bunnies sanctum.
Because casters needed yet another "get out of jail free" card.