How to be evil, yet "good"

[CyberThread]

How can you be an evil aligned character that may have good aligned party members, and still be a decent team mate.

[Avilan the Grey]

A few things to consider:


1. Even Evil has loved ones. Are the party members potential love interests? Friends from childhood? Friends of his mom?

2. Honor. Is the character Neutral or Lawful? In that case, he might feel he owes the members of the group something (maybe they saved his life? Helped him put out a fire that threatened his house? Helped him in a trade distpute with the city council and the hat-makers guild?

3. Related to 2, his Evil might be of a grander scale? He doesn't kick dogs or backstab teammates in random dungeons. His long term goal is to become ruler of the Nation Of X. In the meantime he is a pretty decent fellow. Killing peasants for the lulz is for crazy people and cretins. He is neither.

4. And of course... does completing this quest in a clean and timely manner forward his own goals in any way?

Edit: Added to this...

"Evil" in D&D, despite being such a "real" thing, is very abstract. The psychotic Sorceror is Evil. But remember that an owner of an inn that overcharge his drinks because of greed also pings on the evil-meter for a Paladin. This is also why Paladin players get in trouble if they assume they can go around and kill everyone that is "evil". Of course I assume the evil teammate is more than just a little greedy, or a little selfish... But my point is that just because someone has the Alignment of X Evil doesn't mean he is THE EVIL OVERLORD. It can just mean he is a little sleazy, or greedy, or a selfish coward.

[SciChronic]

LE and NE characters could join parties if it futhers their own goals. Just because he's evil doesn't mean he does every evil thing he can think of. Lex Luthor helped the Justice League at the end of JLU because their goals happened to be the same.

If the payoff is great enough, an evil character could join a group of good characters.

[DaedalusMkV]

It depends on the circumstances and on the group. For example, in a "Save the world" scenario, all the Evil character needs is a desire to prolong his own existence and a team-player mentality; in this case he's willing to team up with the 'good guys', and the good guys willing to work with him, because at least everyone's working together to save the world. The team might or might not break up after the world is saved, depending on how good a job the Good-aligned characters have done convincing the Evil character to be less of a horrible person and how good a job the Evil character has done convincing the Good guys that honestly, he's really not as bad as all that.

In a less severe scenario, there are a couple of ways to do it, though the core requirement is that the Evil character needs to have similar goals to the Good characters. In this case, the rule of the game is that Evil people tend to have friends and family too, and your goal is going to be to make sure that as many party members as possible fall into one of those categories. Perhaps the Good-aligned PCs put up with the Evil character's occasional failings because he's a good friend and mostly does his best to work towards the group's goal. Perhaps they simply recognize that sometimes bad things have to be done to achieve good goals, and keep the Evil character around because they can't really fault him in the end. Maybe the Evil character is just really good at arguing his point or subtle enough that the Good party members don't really see him as anything but one of their own.

The point is, there's a lot of ways to happen, as long as the Evil character has reasonable goals and both Alignment groups are willing to compromise a bit to get the job done. No Good character is going to spend time with a puppy-kicking mass-murderer who wants to watch the world burn, no matter how sympathetic you make him, but they'll probably tolerate the friendly Rogue who steals from the rich, gives to himself (and his good friends, when they need the cash), and constantly pushes to have the villains killed, surrendered or not, because he doesn't trust the Law to hold them. Or the hard-bitten Freedom Fighter who's willing to do whatever it takes to see the Tyrant brought down. Etc.

[Regitnui]

Lawful Evil. And utterly immoral individual who operates by his own personal code. You see no problem with leaving a village to burn after it has been set on fire, but you won't kill a child. Make the character a case of Even Evil Has Standards (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EvenEvilHasStandards).

Ninja'd three times over. ouch.

[ArcturusV]

Well, the difference is to separate "Evil" from "Villain" in your mind. This isn't a huge, illogical leap.

Evil in DnD isn't really subjective. It's a real, concrete, physical/metaphysical force. It can be weighed, measured, observed, etc. There is Pure Evil, there are evil acts, things that radiate evil, etc.

But Villainy is always subjective. And that's the line where you live. You can easily be an Evil Character, fully within the realm of Acting Evil, and not be a villain at all. Usually this would be the line of "Anti-Heroes", always a popular thing. The Punisher from Marvel Comics, for example... he's undoubtably not a Villain. But in DnD Terms? He is so obviously Evil (He tortures people, kills those who might otherwise surrender. Operates outside the law, doesn't blink about harming others to accomplish his mission, etc).

Realize that Evil, in DnD terms, isn't so much about Villainous Acts necessarily. Yes, it includes a lot of things we'd automatically assume are Evil Acts. For example, damaging Souls is explicitly Evil. Worshiping an Evil God is also explicitly Evil. So is Torture, needlessly maiming people, etc.

But mostly Evil is about, by the rules, Motivated Self Interest (aka, Greed). It's about doing whatever you think you should, if it benefits yourself. What separates this from mere Neutral is that you don't pretend to be good. You don't delude yourself. And honestly as long as the price is right, any tool is on your table.

You can easily be an Evil type (But get along with a party of Good Aligned Heroes) by being things like the Zealot. The "True Believer" who will do anything to accomplish your goal. Torture cultists to give up information? Go for it. Steal the souls of the corrupt and wicked in order to further your own mission? Hell yeah.

You can also be an Evil type, but very charismatic and likeable. Just because you are ____ Evil, doesn't mean you can't have friends. It doesn't mean you don't know how to crack jokes, hang out, have a beer and tell a good story. Oh, you might be a cold blooded murderer. People might only have value to you so far as they serve your desires (even if that desire is only to be the center of attention)... but that doesn't mean people don't like you, and that you don't need/want people in your life.

At the very least, to twist "Paladin... not Stupid.", "Evil... not Stupid". Just because you're Evil doesn't mean you don't realize the value of having trusted accomplices, people who can watch your back, etc. You might be a total bastard when no one is watching, but when your Goody Two Shoes friends have their eyes on you you're sickingly sweet just like them. Let them think you're on their side. That just means when your Victims come to hunt you down, they're on your side. They are your most able accomplices.

[Flickerdart]

Lawfuls and Chaotics can work in the same party with no problem. Goods and Evils can as well, in a similar fashion. Given that the game is centered around killing things and taking their stuff, it's not too hard to work in an Evil character - they are like Neutral characters of their alignment who take things too far. A CE character could simply take a little too much pleasure in gruesomely slaughtering his enemies, and be a little too zealous when it comes to seeking out new ones. A LE character would be interested in punishing the guilty - but may seek to subjugate them himself rather than hand them over to a "proper" authority. These characters do quests for the rewards, not to help people, but they still do the quests. They might fight the BBEG to usurp his wealth and power, to get him out of the way for their own doomsday plot, or simply because they like killing stuff, but they'll still fight the BBEG. They might save the princess to demand a reward for her return, as part of an insidious plot to get close to the king, or because the king's guards rummaging through the land looking for her are irritating, but they'll still save the princess.

As long as you're thinking "how can this character's alignment lead him to assist the party" you'll think of something.

[TypoNinja]

Evil doesn't mean stupid, Evil doesn't mean you must be an ass.

Evil can get along easily. Your group can accomplish far more working together than the Evil individual ever could alone. You don't have to try and steal from the party just because Evil. Jeopardizing your position in the party would be counter productive.

Evil does not mean you'll have your Evil club card revoked if you don't make your quota of burning down hospitals and homes for orphans. That's Chaotic Stupid.

Evil means you need a reason, you stand to gain nothing by killing randomly so why would you? On the other hand, the reverse is true. You stand to gain nothing for saving this village, why do you care? A good party would help because its good, you want to know who's going to make it worth your while.

You might be more inclined to kill rather than capture if the enemy isn't particularly valuable alive, on the flip side nothing requires you to be a blood thirsty lunatic. Simple 'selfish at the expense of others' qualifies.

You by no means are required to become a cartoon villain just because you are Evil.

[Andezzar]

Worshiping an Evil God is also explicitly Evil.It is? How can there be non-evil worshippers and even clerics of evil gods (at least the latter explicitly exist)?

[Slipperychicken]

Here are some ways and attitudes to be a massive douchebag, but not disruptive or betraying party members.


Have noble goals (which align with the party), yet be a douchebag who pours scorn on enemies, and channels that into his fighting and interrogation. You won't turn on the party, and you're a valuable teammate. You're just not a cuddly or personable guy, is all.

You could have all the 'isms (racism, sexism, ageism, class-ism, etc), yet simply patronize, mistrust, and underestimate the "inferior" (not letting them take responsibility, hinting at their race/religion/sex/lack of education/age as though it were a disability, praising the strong for overcoming it), instead of instantly murdering them on sight. You don't even need to hate them, just pity them.

You could fail to sympathize with people, giving the bare minimum consolation for losses, perhaps rolling your eyes because you think they're too weak for their own good. Make awful comparisons. After all, you went through similar things (like when your PC's dog died? Exactly like that woman losing her child, only worse because your dog was good for something), but you pulled through because you're the best, higher than the rabble.

You could be a self-righteous, self-important a-hole. Your suffering is the only one that matters, and no-one understands what you've persevered through. You've survived and thrived. Everyone who does things you don't like is disgusting scum. With undetectable alignment up, you could even roll with most Paladins for a while before they noticed.

Refuse charity. To your character, if they need so much help, maybe they don't deserve to be alive in the first place. Maybe the beggar is lazy. Maybe he's a con-man scamming your cash. Maybe the gods see beggars as an abomination. Maybe the gods forced beggary because they deserves it. Maybe they were evil in a past life. Who knows? People are poor for a reason.

Shoo away beggars, kick them if they insist. To your character, they're a pile of smelly rags, a nuisance. Freeloaders. If they wanted to live well, they could just get a job. Or they're "surplus population", and you want to discourage them from dirtying your good city and leeching off kind-hearted souls. Or you just see beggars as thieves by a different name. If you give them cash, they'll just think this lifestyle is acceptable and continue to stew in their own nasty juices instead of getting a job.


It is? How can there be non-evil worshippers and even clerics of evil gods (at least the latter explicitly exist)?

Easy. Your parents raised you worshiping Hextor or whatever, but you don't really agree with everything. You might not think humans need to be exterminated, but deep down, you know you need to honor your elders and ancestors memory. Such a character might feel an obligation to worship this deity because he thinks it protects and aids him. Maybe Clerics of the Evil god helped him out (helped kick an addiction? saved his life? helped with family issues?), then he felt indebted by it. Or he was just socialized into the church and that's where all his family and friends are. If he drops the church, he drops his community, which matters to him a lot more than exactly which god he slaughters goats to.

[ArcturusV]

*shrug* By the weight of one act not determining the whole of who you are. That gets quoted enough. Like Good Wizards being able to cast an [Evil] spell without becoming Evil.

Though the PHB says, when describing Evil "Others actively pursue evil, killing for sport or out of duty to some evil deity or master".

We can either take away that it is talking about Killing only. Which seems kinda silly as they already covered Killing Without Qualms in the sentence above. Or that it has to do with the nature of serving Evil Gods/Masters. Further evidenced by later in the section it saying:

"Being Good or Evil can be a conscious choice, as with the Paladin who attempts to live up to her ideals or the evil cleric who causes pain and terror to emulate his god."

So there's some link in the rules between devotion to Evil Faiths, and being Evil. Course the equivalent of "Slaugtherday and Blood Festivus Gruumi****es" or something probably exist as the "Neutral" fringe. Not really devout.

[Psyren]

You can simply be "dark" rather than actually Evil. For instance, Hellbred lets you use all kinds of evil items and spells while being good, and Malconvoker lets you summon demons and devils all over the place.

[Wings of Peace]

The biggest factor is in my opinion how smart your evil character is. A lot of people seem to think an evil character is obligated to do evil, but being evil is more of a perspective than a way of life.

What I mean by this is that an evil character isn't necessarily openly evil even half the time if they think through their actions. The example I like to give is a heist. A good or neutral character might sneak in through a window or jimmy a door open. The evil character could still do those things but not before deciding whether or not setting the nearby orphanage on fire would keep the town guard too distracted to notice the break in. Even if the evil character goes with a non-fiery solution, it's their openness to the option that makes them evil.

Edit: In the groups I DM for I actually find evil characters the easiest to play with because motivation is as easy as gold with no questions asked whereas the good characters often inquire as to whether or not they might be doing something unethical.

[Cheiromancer]

Google Libertad's "Courtroom Reviews: Way of the Wicked" at minmaxboards.com

There are some nice notes on running an evil campaign, including tips on how to avoid Stupid Evil ("a PC cultist of Demogorgan is running naked through the town square with a meat cleaver in one hand and a bag of dismembered sex organs in the other"), Sick Evil (“finally, an opportunity to engage in my disgusting, depraved fantasies in-character!”), and Treacherous Bastard Evil (“I cast Finger of Death on Sir Edward. Roll your character a Fortitude Save, Michael”). These tips would apply also to a party with a mixture of good and evil characters.

I'll refer you to the Courtroom review for a discussion of the tips and their effectiveness.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Another interesting example is Marchiosas (sp?), from the Tome of Magic.

He's a vestige who, in life, went around killing all the assassins he could find. Not because it would rid the world of evil, but because no one else was really a challenge to him.

[hamishspence]

We can either take away that it is talking about Killing only. Which seems kinda silly as they already covered Killing Without Qualms in the sentence above. Or that it has to do with the nature of serving Evil Gods/Masters. Further evidenced by later in the section it saying:

"Being Good or Evil can be a conscious choice, as with the Paladin who attempts to live up to her ideals or the evil cleric who causes pain and terror to emulate his god."

So there's some link in the rules between devotion to Evil Faiths, and being Evil.

The nonevil ones might focus on other aspects of the deity.

Hextor may be a god of tyranny, but he's also a god of fitness. Maybe there's a health club or two devoted to him?

[Vedhin]

Just remeber, in D&D there's evil, and then there's Evil.

Capital E Evil is the alignment-- it reflects personal beliefs and values, and is what makes you light up when some one casts the right spell, and what the Paladin smites.

Lowercase e evil is more about with how others view you. If you consistently do things people think are evil, you might be labeled as evil, despite being Good and doing them for a Good reason. Likewise, an Evil character might be called good if he consistently does good deeds, even if he does them for Evil reasons.

So, your character might be Evil, but doing good things for his own selfish reasons. Perhaps he is motivated by greed, or is advancing his own agenda by cooperating with the party. There are many reasons why an Evil person might do good things.

Also, what others have said about loyalty is a good point. Your character may well be Evil to the core, but stick with the good guys because he feels that he owes them one.

Oh, and Belkar. Be Evil, but channel that Evil against Evil for the most part.

[hamishspence]

Lowercase e evil is more about with how others view you. If you consistently do things people think are evil, you might be labeled as evil, despite being Good and doing them for a Good reason.

Going by Champions of Ruin, if you consistently do things the DM thinks are evil, they might label your character as Evil, despite the fact that they're doing them for a Good Reason.

The road to the Lower Planes is paved with Good intentions, after all :smallamused:

[SciChronic]

The nonevil ones might focus on other aspects of the deity.

Hextor may be a god of tyranny, but he's also a god of fitness. Maybe there's a health club or two devoted to him?

more likely coliseums and arenas for bloodsport.

[Slipperychicken]

Hextor may be a god of tyranny, but he's also a god of fitness. Maybe there's a health club or two devoted to him?

Well, you need to be healthy to be properly fit and warlike, so you could justify hospitals too. After all, someone needs to heal those wounded while serving darkness.

[Flickerdart]

Well, you need to be healthy to be properly fit and warlike, so you could justify hospitals too. After all, someone needs to heal those wounded while serving darkness.
And you can raise dead people as high-Wisdom undead who would have high Heal checks, brilliant.

[Andezzar]

So there's some link in the rules between devotion to Evil Faiths, and being Evil. Course the equivalent of "Slaugtherday and Blood Festivus Gruumi****es" or something probably exist as the "Neutral" fringe. Not really devout.Why do you think that people focusing on the non-evil parts of the deity's portfolio makes people less devout? Are non-chaotic/non-good followers of Eilistraee less devout? How about followers of a true neutrral deity who have neutrality on only one of the alignment axes?

While they may have beliefs that diverge from the orthodoxy of the church (if such exists) it does not make them any less devoted to their ideals.

[karkus]

I once played a gambler who killed evil gangsters and saved helpless citizens.

The tricky thing about it however was that he was Evil and was actually doing it all selfishly.

By saving citizens, people gave him rewards, and by killing gangsters, he could steal all their *ahem* "hard-earned" money for himself.

This became probably the only example I have ever come up with myself of an Evil character doing good deeds.

[Reathin]

Without having read most of the replies so far:

They might have a strong code of conduct that syncronizes well with the party.

They might be highly pragmatic, seeing the party as a means to an end and more useful if kept unbothered, even if the evil character disagrees on how to go about whatever goals they might have.

They might genuinely like the party or specific members, much like Belkar's friendship with Elan (and Shojo, to a lesser extent), methods notwithstanding.

The evil character might be a sort of "I agree with your goals, but you're too soft to achieve them on your own" thing going on. Maybe (s)he doesn't want to see someone's innocence ruined, so they take the matter out of their hands (perhaps subtly), murdering, cheating, betraying and torturing others, doing the supposedly important dirty work to keep the others "clean".

The evil character might not realize what they're doing is wrong, for whatever reason. They want to help, they see effective ways to go about it, and are completely confused when the Paladin starts yelling at them. Others might want to redeem them, as they seem a sort of innocent evil.

[hamishspence]

Well, you need to be healthy to be properly fit and warlike, so you could justify hospitals too. After all, someone needs to heal those wounded while serving darkness.

Indeed. Some jobs- drill sergeant, for example, might allow the character to indulge their tyrannical side without actually ticking off society.

[ArcturusV]

Well, because the question of Devotion or not is a lot clearer than we're used to thinking about in our world. In our world, what does whatever being we worship really want out of us? We got a few prophets (Some false perhaps) to help guide us, but mostly on the issues we're making judgement calls based on our own mortal minds.

In DnD, not so much. As even relatively average/low level devout people can go chat and sip tea with their God (Or direct representative) more or less at will. There's no asking "What Would Bane Do?", you know. He will tell you to your face. Being fully devout would really be towing the party line on that. No "interpretation" or anything. The guys one step away (Or more) who worship it thus are more akin to Reformers perhaps, or Lay Worshipers (I don't worship the God of Thieves... but when I'm about to break into a place, I'll give him a prayer for luck, or to appease him...). They might like the general message but apply it more to their life rather than blindly following it. E.g.: I could be a Chaotic Neutral follower of Gruumsh because I like his philosophies of Martial Power and strength, however I have no personal blood feud with the Elves (Though I dislike them), or a few other of his priorities. But I like the idea of things belonging to whoever can take them, and the need to reward people according to their strength. Not so much on slaughtering the weak necessarily.

I could do that, presuming I have Orc Blood still be a Chaotic Neutral Cleric of Gruumsh. And definitely be "less devout" comparatively to the raving Orc Shaman who daily bathes in the blood of Elves, kills all orcs with any sign of defect within them, etc.

[Slipperychicken]

towing the party line

It's toe the line. TOE THE LINE. As in, you're standing in a line as you're instructed to, and your toes are exactly on it.

[GoddessSune]

How can you be an evil aligned character that may have good aligned party members, and still be a decent team mate.

If you have a job, you do something like this every day. You won't agree or even like some of your co-workers....but you get along just enough to get the work done.

And even more so if you have ever been in a close to ''life and death'' situation, you really just put everything else away.

But then, even if your evil, you get to pick what you do. You don't ''have'' to do evil. And more so you don't need to do public evil.

[Pickford]

How can you be an evil aligned character that may have good aligned party members, and still be a decent team mate.

You use them to further your own ends. Simply put, if you let the rogue die, you need a new rogue.

If you could be doing this solo, you would. The 'team' are necessary to achieve your goals.

A great example of this is in Baldur's gate when Monty attempts to guilt trip the protagonist by offering them healing potions and implying that the character must feel some kind of obligation to help Monty back. :smallamused:

[ArcturusV]

A live fire example I can mention of the "Evil" guy being "good" came from one of the few campaigns I got to be a player in.

We had a Good aligned party, and my character who was Lawful Evil. He was blatantly evil, and did enjoy ripping apart and humiliating his opponents before he finished them off. He was the sort of character who'd go, "Coup de grace? Why would I ever do that. I'll go slice off a finger instead."

But right from the start of the campaign he took the actions of the "villain" personally. The villain took something from him, in this case, kidnapped him from his homeland in order to deposit him in the area the GM wanted to start the plot. So it was a quest of Revenge for his part. As he ran across the land, he saw the locals were (in his mind) fat, lazy, stupid, and incompetent. He realized two things, 1) He could take over these people and no one would be able to stop him. And 2) Disposing of this evil villain and his co-conspirators would provide a legitimacy to his "empire" that would make the plan so much easier to enact.

So he was the perfect teammate. He was helpful, he helped a local Princess evade capture, helped the Warrior Guild of the area maintain order, killed villains by the scores. Everyone trusted him, hell, even forgot (Both players around the table, and the DM for that matter) that my character was in fact Evil aligned. I was the "Hero". And while I was cruel in how I treated my enemies and such, no one really tagged me as Evil aligned.

Even as I suckered the Princess I saved into thinking she loved me, and swearing a blood oath to me (Once again, making my claim to rule that much easier), establishing Peace Treaties across the land, ending warfare and generally being "Good" as I did it for the purpose of creating my own Empire. In the end, people were reminded I was "evil" only because in our last session of the campaign, closing it out, I finally sprung my trap to betray a teammate. And I only did that because the teammate was a scapegoat I had used to help unite the land in peace under my flag. Despite his "Good" alignment, he was the Villain at that point (Was known to do things like Mindrape people over petty issues, contracted demons to help him regain his own throne that he had lost prior to the start of the game, awoken ancient dragons to scourge the land of the demons, and called for the Demon Prince of Indiscriminate Slaughter and Bloodshed to deal with the dragon....)....

[Avilan the Grey]

Again though, I think one simple way of making it work is just to remember that:

Even Evil Has Standards
Even Evil Love Their Mommas
Even Evil Have Loved Ones

Also, the following Tropes are also useful in this situation:

Go Karting With Bowser
Card-Carrying Villain
My Enemy's Enemy is my Friend
Band Of Brothers

All of these seven Tropes, in different combinations, make a trustworthy evil character in a good party not only possible, but plausible.

Two more examples from the top of my head:

Even Evil Has Standards and / or My Enemy's Enemy is my Friend - There is a bigger threat on the horizon. Anyone willing to help fight it is welcome.

Band Of Brothers and / or Even Evil Has Loved Ones: You are all fire-forged friends. Glued together by hardship and battle. You have to trust eachother and have eachother's backs or perish. You all fight hard, and party hard. The individual alignment becomes rather irrelevant at this point, what matters is the plutoon / legion / and that Nobody Gets Left Behind. All For One and One For All.
You might have, once, been thrust together by circumstances beyond your control (drafted, forced to join to be able to support your families etc) but now you are a true Band Of Brothers.

[Ninja PieKing]

Evil does not mean bad. Have him be a bit of a philosopher and contemplate the true nature of evil. Make him affably evil and convinced he is good. Have him consistently debate with the other party members and try to ring them around to his way of thinking while making it clear he cares about their opinions and can be brought towards their line of thinking on some things. Do it well and you can be in a group with a paladin and have few problems.

[AttilaTheGeek]

I don't remember who said it, but this quote applies well here.

Neutral says "look out for number one", but Evil says "look out for number one" while crushing number two.